Guild Wars 2

Big ups for this post too, and something I didn’t touch in mine. I feel like the reason mobas are so successful is because of the ease of viewability. Ultimate spells are incredibly visual, and you can easily catch any spell that anyone uses. On top of that, there are only usually 4 spells to keep track of per person~ as well as spell timers on ultimates or on buffs and stuff like that. Having so many skills in Guild Wars 2 as well as them being so hard to track makes the game extremely hard to cast for as well as watch. A solution is really hard to think about though unless A Net wanted to redo all the spell animations I think.

Irenicus.9801:

Ease of watching – particles (boons):

There are a lot of boons in the game. A lot are communicated with really small icons. I say this because of the above non-boon particles. It is difficult to see them should they actually have an animation associated with them. While making solid objects a priority for communication will enhance the boon information, there are some boon cues that could be visually improved.

• Problem: visual information about boons is not sufficient.

• Possible solution: more intuitive visuals associated with boons.

• Cost of doing it: increased amount of visual effects.

• Cost of not doing it: following the boons in play is extremely confusing since they are poorly communicated. Other particle effects are making it extremely difficult to
  see what one should do, especially when there are massive skill effects
  around.

• Implementation: the boons in play could have a stronger visual indication based on what they do. A lot of them could be revised effects that are already in play: stability can be the same effect as wielding the Juggernaut (half body, legs only, black metallic color); retaliation could be something similar to Guardian off-hand focus 5 but with daggers instead of shields (and much closer to the body to prevent clutter), and so on.

Ease of watching – telegraphing:

For a PvP game that wants to be taken seriously, the difference in size between character models will be off-putting to quite a lot of viewers. It means that their skill telegraphs will be very difficult to see, not only for the players, but perhaps more importantly for the viewers. The Asura are the big problem here, and it is not uncommon to see full Asura teams because of this discrepancy in ability to see telegraphed skills.

• Problem: It is simply not fun to watch what you can’t understand, as has been the
  idea behind this text.

• Possible solution: normalize the size of the player models, have tourneys play out in fixed races.

• Cost of doing it: some players will be upset because they do not feel that it is a problem.

• Cost of not doing it: telegraphed skills not being seen by viewers leading to holes in the information that should be given but is not. Not being taken seriously because
  of these discrepancies; this can also lead to misunderstandings about hit boxes. Better telegraphing would also increase the intuition of when to dodge for newer players, and when someone should have dodged for viewers. It’s a nice mechanic, let’s make more use out of it.

• Implementation: rescaling of player models seems like a viable option.

Discussion
What would you do to improve the quality of viewing Guild Wars 2 streams?

I agree with most of what he says. When I’m watching a team fight it is hard to see what individual players are doing because of the cluster of effects on screens. Players and pets just get lost in it.

I would love to have the ability to see combat logs of players or some kind of cast history so I can look at players and what they did to achieve something.

Also, two more things that are very important in competitve PvPing.

1. Option to spectate turnys. Most of the “good” players do turnys since it affects their leaderboards, I’d love to be able to see how they play.

2. Spectating Lag. There needs to be a lag, such as in dota, between what the spectators see and what is going on to help prevent cheating.

Super Adventure Box used normalized sizes actually, and you got to keep your race, height differences were a lot less apparent, I think sPvP could do something like this and it’d be cool.

I personally don’t see particle effects as a problem, but I guess I can see how new players might. Still I’d like to see actual metrics on that, if you tone them away too much skills feel less weighty and pleasing, one of my favorite parts of my Necromancer is sending out plagues of insects, turning into a black blob, and having skeletal hands grab at people from beneath their feet. Its a fine line between toning something down for visibility, and sucking all the flavor out of it.

Excellent post! I hope it spurs some discussion.

Irenicus.9801:

Following discussions online, in both this community and other game communities, there seem to be two identifying features of popularity: ease of following the match (visuals) and rivalry between those that are playing (drama). I will touch upon the first part here.

Good post but im interested about the drama. Maybe i have to wait for the consistent top teams to emerge.

Also, a great way to engage an audience, especially with this kind of PvP, would be to have like a lobby area pre-game where the casters could explain the builds of the players to the audience. Obviously this would coincide with the stream lag thing that one guy mentioned, but yeah. It allows people to understand the reasoning behind the comps a little better.

there is even one problem that ASURA.they are so small that it is not clear what they are doing and it is not clear what they profession . most often they are simply invisible to the special effect abilities and all players enjoy this advantage . and I want to see new battlefields with new game modes, the seizure of three points to be so boring and pointless.
excuse my English please)

Zyphent.2967:

I personally don’t see particle effects as a problem, but I guess I can see how new players might.

Actually it’s not just new players that see particle effects as problem. You might not notice it standing back with Necro, but try doing some teamfights as meele class. Between shatters, Engi nades exploding all around, Necro wells, Ranger traps etc etc my screen glows like a rainbow and I see everything but stuff I actually need to see.

It’s even worse when you’re spectacting.

Harrier.9380:

Zyphent.2967:

I personally don’t see particle effects as a problem, but I guess I can see how new players might.

Actually it’s not just new players that see particle effects as problem. You might not notice it standing back with Necro, but try doing some teamfights as meele class. Between shatters, Engi nades exploding all around, Necro wells, Ranger traps etc etc my screen glows like a rainbow and I see everything but stuff I actually need to see.

It’s even worse when you’re spectacting.

Yes it’s true, the screen turns into a mess of colors and I just don’t understand where who and where I am and who the players are doing . from this game just starts to fade in my head

Firstly, I just want to say that cast bars have no place in this game, and should never be put in.

The reason for this, is you need to be able to counter other skills and actions simply by their animation. However, as you brought up, due to character model disparities and the absolutely stupid amount of particle effects in this game, countering via animation becomes difficult even for seasoned pvpers.

Character sizes absolutely need to be normalized, and particle effects absolutely need to be lowered, as well as being put on a player-controlled slider bar.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Wow, this is excellent feedback! The way you laid out pros/cons, analyzed problems and proposed solutions is incredibly helpful.

Thanks for sharing!

Wow, this kind of feedback has been given a gozillion times already by now! A wild guess is, it’s been flowing in since alpha!

But man, if everything needs to be brought to you on a silver platter (referring to the pros and cons listed in the OP), including things which are not only obvious but rather predictable too (e.g. animation cluttering from various sources leads to difficulties discernign what’s happening on the field – well, no shiat) in order for a thread to gain acknowledgement by Anet, then you really are beyond saving.
Logic isn’t your forte, is it. Nor is making a pvp game.

P.S. On the drama part – drama is only present when there’s actual competition, and it scales with the level of competition. Maybe that’s why there’s virtually no real drama on GW2 pvp, bar for some occasional ego parades.

So if we like, explain things in a rational and objective manner looking at issues from all sides and stuff…Anet will actually listen?

Irenicus.9801:

Ease of watching – telegraphing:

For a PvP game that wants to be taken seriously, the difference in size between character models will be off-putting to quite a lot of viewers. It means that their skill telegraphs will be very difficult to see, not only for the players, but perhaps more importantly for the viewers. The Asura are the big problem here, and it is not uncommon to see full Asura teams because of this discrepancy in ability to see telegraphed skills.

• Problem: It is simply not fun to watch what you can’t understand, as has been the
  idea behind this text.

• Possible solution: normalize the size of the player models, have tourneys play out in fixed races.

• Cost of doing it: some players will be upset because they do not feel that it is a problem.

• Cost of not doing it: telegraphed skills not being seen by viewers leading to holes in the information that should be given but is not. Not being taken seriously because
  of these discrepancies; this can also lead to misunderstandings about hit boxes. Better telegraphing would also increase the intuition of when to dodge for newer players, and when someone should have dodged for viewers. It’s a nice mechanic, let’s make more use out of it.

• Implementation: rescaling of player models seems like a viable option.

Just make all Character models scale too the exact same size, this will still give the players their class / race they wish, however I doubt many serious tPvP-er cares much about the Lore.

But You can take them for how their animations play out, but without getting an “Unfair” advantage due to smaller sized animations.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Wow, this is excellent feedback! The way you laid out pros/cons, analyzed problems and proposed solutions is incredibly helpful.

Thanks for sharing!

Wow, this kind of feedback has been given a gozillion times already by now! A wild guess is, it’s been flowing in since alpha!

But man, if everything needs to be brought to you on a silver platter (referring to the pros and cons listed in the OP), including things which are not only obvious but rather predictable too (e.g. animation cluttering from various sources leads to difficulties discernign what’s happening on the field – well, no shiat) in order for a thread to gain acknowledgement by Anet, then you really are beyond saving.
Logic isn’t your forte, is it. Nor is making a pvp game.

P.S. On the drama part – drama is only present when there’s actual competition, and it scales with the level of competition. Maybe that’s why there’s virtually no real drama on GW2 pvp, bar for some occasional ego parades.

i agree on all. since alpha we tried to help you, anet, you didn’t listen because “coummunity will accept this ideas”

This patronizing and borderline hypocritical attitude they tend to display in such threads is becoming rather annoying.

It reminds me of this distinct pattern, where you first give an empty praise to something you don’t intend on accepting/considering to start with, but you threw in a random positive comment that isn’t really contributing in any kind of respect (as in this case, where it’s simply stating the obvious) just to be polite, or at least avoid looking disrespectful.

I guess Anet sees posters here as 5 year olds waiting for a praise by Anet on the quality of their forum threads, because that is exactly how such posts come off as to me.

The devs can easily rescale all character models to the same size, and use lore as an explanation: Asura’s technology designed specifically for fair competitive matches. Really, if Asura’s technology can be used to explain Adventure Box, it can be used to justify this change.

Of course, the Asurans would be annoyed by being forced into fair ground, but their cientists would have to concede. ;P

Freeze minimap position

I want to lock minimap in a position where i always see 3 nodes, with a good zoom, in that way i can always know where my friends are.

Prof icons on minimap are great but pls, freeze minimap position, i don’t want it moves with my position, i want a fixed position.

This stuff it’s very good for players (team and PUG) and spectator, if people don’t know where others people are, everything is harder.

MarkPhilips.5169:

Freeze minimap position

I want to lock minimap in a position where i always see 3 nodes, with a good zoom, in that way i can always know where my friends are.

Prof icons on minimap are great but pls, freeze minimap position, i don’t want it moves with my position, i want a fixed position.

This stuff it’s very good for players (team and PUG) and spectator, if people don’t know where others people are, everything is harder.

This. This!!

MarkPhilips.5169:

Freeze minimap position

I want to lock minimap in a position where i always see 3 nodes, with a good zoom, in that way i can always know where my friends are.

Prof icons on minimap are great but pls, freeze minimap position, i don’t want it moves with my position, i want a fixed position.

This stuff it’s very good for players (team and PUG) and spectator, if people don’t know where others people are, everything is harder.

Yes. I would vouch for this one too

MarkPhilips.5169:

Freeze minimap position

I want to lock minimap in a position where i always see 3 nodes, with a good zoom, in that way i can always know where my friends are.

Prof icons on minimap are great but pls, freeze minimap position, i don’t want it moves with my position, i want a fixed position.

This stuff it’s very good for players (team and PUG) and spectator, if people don’t know where others people are, everything is harder.

patch after patch after patch i am waiting for this – was suggested like years before and thousands of times – still.
i’d love to have a interface similar to gw1 in terms of customisability where we were able to adjust the position and size of every single element on screen

MarkPhilips.5169:

Freeze minimap position

I want to lock minimap in a position where i always see 3 nodes, with a good zoom, in that way i can always know where my friends are.

Prof icons on minimap are great but pls, freeze minimap position, i don’t want it moves with my position, i want a fixed position.

This stuff it’s very good for players (team and PUG) and spectator, if people don’t know where others people are, everything is harder.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Wow, this is excellent feedback! The way you laid out pros/cons, analyzed problems and proposed solutions is incredibly helpful.

Thanks for sharing!

This has been the only thing bothering me since the game launched, the community posts competent ideas yet they are either ignored or scraped by the admins. This isn’t a personal bash towards the devs, but you guys like ignoring the community when it is your greatest asset in what the community feels is balanced (public test server). When a new balance patch is done, it is up to the community to post a feedback poll because you can’t do it yourselves, then you go “great feedback we will continue watching this thread” doesn’t it hurt to at least try an make one yourselves? In relation to this post, shouldn’t this have been done before to improve pvp? (by actually making a poll on how the COMMUNITY felt about the problems with pvp yet the dying community still tries to give you feedback which falls on deaf ears)

I don’t know either why the devs never create a topic on these things, like:
“We are working on a leaderboard at the moment, blablabla, what do you wish/expect from it? which tools you want to be in there (player-search, sort-options etc.)?

If they would do this, they’d had a concentrated suggestion-poll on specific subjects. I think this would be much easier to create lack-free content. And all the information on one topic and not spread on severals.

What this post is about made me quit the game over half a year ago.
I think ArenaNet has done an amazing job with the Thief, Warrior, Ranger, Guardian in how they play out, theyre strengths and weaknesses. But the problem arise when you get Mesmers, Elementalists, Necromancers who are all about fooling you and spamming particle effects in the field.

I really love to see a melee vs a melee or ranged for that matter, but when you get these classes spamming clones which then in turn explodes into butterflies and then elementalists spamming tons of effects in your screen, it gets too much. Like wth am i playing ?

Ofcourse MMO’s like this should have magic classes but why not do the magic more realistic ? Why have this weird particle and sound effects on them ? It really destroys the feel of the battlefield.

Well … if we are going to be realistic, then the necromancer will be able to curse you to
death and you will be unable to do nothing more than to die, the mesmer will just make you think that are you a vegetable and then wither from the hot weather , and the elementalist will just burn you alive in an instant. This is a game, there is nothing realistic, thief’s in general cannot turn invisible ( except if they are ninjas :P ) and warriors cannot leap for 10 meters with heavy armor. But you have a point that the screen can be very messy. Maybe the game must have an option to reduce some graphic effects that its not class crucial ( like mesmers ).
But about the filling of the battle field, you know its more much confusing
in reality. In reality you have not a 3d person perspective, and the explosions and
sounds its chaotic. When i had see for the first time large scale battle in GW2,
i was thinking “That’s is like a real war” :P