Guild Wars 2

I’ve mentioned this before, as I would like GW2 to be taken seriously for e sports and be enjoyable, but I would say it’s arguably less diverse and competitive than over a year ago.

Remember when guardians could run meditations and AH in the same meta and not be considered trash? Sure meditation wasn’t tier 1, but people came up with interesting stat combinations and did their own thing for casual play, it was fun seeing different things. Shoutbow, axebow, signet warriors, etc. and remember when you looked up mesmer and had to decide between being cancer condi, meta power shatter or the inbetween lockdown mesmer?

We need that back, sure there were some OP builds that needed a nerf, but people could at least build DIFFERENT things. Sometimes a build sneaks in the back but for the most part its the same meta rev, scrapper, druid, etc. with barely any variation. Elite specs were designed to be OP, that’s why they’re mostly end game content in PVE. People wouldn’t want them if they were worse than the actual traitlines they already had.

Are you sure it’s not METABattle’s fault? I think 80% of PVPer’s just go there to get a decent build and go with it. The seasons get really competitive and everyone is paranoid that losing will trash their MMR. So the don’t risk experimental builds. I’ve been playing since 2012 and METABattle was not as prevalent as it is now. Back when the game was new, people had to come up with there own build and the META was a secret to be discovered. Now the best builds are laid out for all to see, so that’s all you see…

There used to be a site (can’t remember it now) that listed “glass cannon” “bunker” and “balanced” builds for every profession.

R O C.6574:

Are you sure it’s not METABattle’s fault? I think 80% of PVPer’s just go there to get a decent build and go with it. The seasons get really competitive and everyone is paranoid that losing will trash their MMR. So the don’t risk experimental builds. I’ve been playing since 2012 and METABattle was not as prevalent as it is now. Back when the game was new, people had to come up with there own build and the META was a secret to be discovered. Now the best builds are laid out for all to see, so that’s all you see…

There used to be a site (can’t remember it now) that listed “glass cannon” “bunker” and “balanced” builds for every profession.

Metabattle is only partly responsible. Actually, one year ago metabattle had already a strong influence on PvP.

The problem is that the build diversity has effectively gone down.

Elite specs have some highly broken mechanics, which creates a huge difference between builds using and having synergy with them and builds which do not.

Also, the absurd pressure that enemies bring (with their own broken elite specs) force you to play a very specific way to be able to survive. For example, the amount of condition is insanely high, so you have very very hard time if you don’t spec against them.

Let us take an example: mesmer (my main).

1. The shield is probably our strongest off-hand with very high defense, very good CC, high illusion generation and some support. Alacrity pretty much improve anything we do as mesmer and F5 allow double cast anything we want. No other traitline give you so much. So we have to run chronomancer (broken elite spec)
2. We need to run inspiration if we want to survive the insane condition output of other classes (including enemy mesmers, how ironic!). Mesmer is otherwise very weak against condis.
3. we have now 1 traitline to pick. That leaves us domination for power, chaos for bunker and illusion for condi. Power has a really low damage output. The burst is high, but with all the defensive elements of enemies, it is not enough to really pressure someone, and we lack follow up damage. That leaves us bunker (Paladin) and condi (Mercenary). Our support is fairly low, so bunker, while definitely playable does not have the same kick as it used to. Condi survives almost as well if not better (benefits from CD reduction of illusion on both shatters and shield block) and synergize very well with the illusion spam traits that chronomancer give you (broken elite spec again). These illusion spam traits also synergize very well with inspiration for more cleanse and heal. Tadaa!!!!! A broken build.

Can you play bunker? Yes but you don’t gain survivability while you lose damage.
Can you play power? Yes, but you lose survivability and you have no damage after your initial burst which everyone can block/evade/invuln or simply fully heal right after.

So yes, in principle you have build diversity, but nowhere near as good as the broken meta specs and small minor variations around them.

Silverkey.2078:

R O C.6574:

Are you sure it’s not METABattle’s fault? I think 80% of PVPer’s just go there to get a decent build and go with it. The seasons get really competitive and everyone is paranoid that losing will trash their MMR. So the don’t risk experimental builds. I’ve been playing since 2012 and METABattle was not as prevalent as it is now. Back when the game was new, people had to come up with there own build and the META was a secret to be discovered. Now the best builds are laid out for all to see, so that’s all you see…

There used to be a site (can’t remember it now) that listed “glass cannon” “bunker” and “balanced” builds for every profession.

Metabattle is only partly responsible. Actually, one year ago metabattle had already a strong influence on PvP.

The problem is that the build diversity has effectively gone down.

Elite specs have some highly broken mechanics, which creates a huge difference between builds using and having synergy with them and builds which do not.

Also, the absurd pressure that enemies bring (with their own broken elite specs) force you to play a very specific way to be able to survive. For example, the amount of condition is insanely high, so you have very very hard time if you don’t spec against them.

Let us take an example: mesmer (my main).

1. The shield is probably our strongest off-hand with very high defense, very good CC, high illusion generation and some support. Alacrity pretty much improve anything we do as mesmer and F5 allow double cast anything we want. No other traitline give you so much. So we have to run chronomancer (broken elite spec)
2. We need to run inspiration if we want to survive the insane condition output of other classes (including enemy mesmers, how ironic!). Mesmer is otherwise very weak against condis.
3. we have now 1 traitline to pick. That leaves us domination for power, chaos for bunker and illusion for condi. Power has a really low damage output. The burst is high, but with all the defensive elements of enemies, it is not enough to really pressure someone, and we lack follow up damage. That leaves us bunker (Paladin) and condi (Mercenary). Our support is fairly low, so bunker, while definitely playable does not have the same kick as it used to. Condi survives almost as well if not better (benefits from CD reduction of illusion on both shatters and shield block) and synergize very well with the illusion spam traits that chronomancer give you (broken elite spec again). These illusion spam traits also synergize very well with inspiration for more cleanse and heal. Tadaa!!!!! A broken build.

Can you play bunker? Yes but you don’t gain survivability while you lose damage.
Can you play power? Yes, but you lose survivability and you have no damage after your initial burst which everyone can block/evade/invuln or simply fully heal right after.

So yes, in principle you have build diversity, but nowhere near as good as the broken meta specs and small minor variations around them.

Maybe it’ll take the introduction of new elite specs. Hopefully they’re not more OP than the current elite specs.

R O C.6574:

Silverkey.2078:

R O C.6574:

Are you sure it’s not METABattle’s fault? I think 80% of PVPer’s just go there to get a decent build and go with it. The seasons get really competitive and everyone is paranoid that losing will trash their MMR. So the don’t risk experimental builds. I’ve been playing since 2012 and METABattle was not as prevalent as it is now. Back when the game was new, people had to come up with there own build and the META was a secret to be discovered. Now the best builds are laid out for all to see, so that’s all you see…

There used to be a site (can’t remember it now) that listed “glass cannon” “bunker” and “balanced” builds for every profession.

Metabattle is only partly responsible. Actually, one year ago metabattle had already a strong influence on PvP.

The problem is that the build diversity has effectively gone down.

Elite specs have some highly broken mechanics, which creates a huge difference between builds using and having synergy with them and builds which do not.

Also, the absurd pressure that enemies bring (with their own broken elite specs) force you to play a very specific way to be able to survive. For example, the amount of condition is insanely high, so you have very very hard time if you don’t spec against them.

Let us take an example: mesmer (my main).

1. The shield is probably our strongest off-hand with very high defense, very good CC, high illusion generation and some support. Alacrity pretty much improve anything we do as mesmer and F5 allow double cast anything we want. No other traitline give you so much. So we have to run chronomancer (broken elite spec)
2. We need to run inspiration if we want to survive the insane condition output of other classes (including enemy mesmers, how ironic!). Mesmer is otherwise very weak against condis.
3. we have now 1 traitline to pick. That leaves us domination for power, chaos for bunker and illusion for condi. Power has a really low damage output. The burst is high, but with all the defensive elements of enemies, it is not enough to really pressure someone, and we lack follow up damage. That leaves us bunker (Paladin) and condi (Mercenary). Our support is fairly low, so bunker, while definitely playable does not have the same kick as it used to. Condi survives almost as well if not better (benefits from CD reduction of illusion on both shatters and shield block) and synergize very well with the illusion spam traits that chronomancer give you (broken elite spec again). These illusion spam traits also synergize very well with inspiration for more cleanse and heal. Tadaa!!!!! A broken build.

Can you play bunker? Yes but you don’t gain survivability while you lose damage.
Can you play power? Yes, but you lose survivability and you have no damage after your initial burst which everyone can block/evade/invuln or simply fully heal right after.

So yes, in principle you have build diversity, but nowhere near as good as the broken meta specs and small minor variations around them.

Maybe it’ll take the introduction of new elite specs. Hopefully they’re not more OP than the current elite specs.

I don’t think you understand the fundamental problem here XD

DrDivine.5378:

I’ve mentioned this before, as I would like GW2 to be taken seriously for e sports and be enjoyable

Any hope GW2 had of becoming an eSport is long dead. It still can be a healthy, fun, and competitive environment, though.

R O C.6574:

Are you sure it’s not METABattle’s fault?

Positive that it has absolutely nothing to do with MetaBattle. MetaBattle has been around for a while. And before then, people found builds on other sides and from top player streams.

The difference between a year ago and now is that most builds a year ago actually required some level of thought and skill in order to live up to its full potential. Current “meta” builds are far too forgiving of mistakes and carry bad players.

The reason there is almost no build diversity is because HoT specs are too kitten strong. A good player using a non-HoT build has to play perfectly in order to beat an average player of a HoT meta build.

Like i said (as lame as it is) you won’t get more build diversity until they put out more elite specs.

Don’t call it “pay to win.” Call it “pay to have a chance at winning”

R O C.6574:

Like i said (as lame as it is) you won’t get more build diversity until they put out more elite specs.

No, you won’t. The game will just remain dead.

The problem with HoT specs is that not only are they immensely more powerful than core, they’re also way too forgiving of poor play. When build > skill, even if everyone has those “meta” builds, the game is dead. Despite changes to elite specs for 3 live cycles, the “meta” is still 6 builds – most of which have been the same each cycle. It would be even less if ESL hadn’t implemented a “one of each profession” rule.

There is only one answer: nerf HoT specs. Until that happens, PvP in GW2 will continue to circle the drain.

Exedore.6320:

R O C.6574:

Like i said (as lame as it is) you won’t get more build diversity until they put out more elite specs.

No, you won’t. The game will just remain dead.

The problem with HoT specs is that not only are they immensely more powerful than core, they’re also way too forgiving of poor play. When build > skill, even if everyone has those “meta” builds, the game is dead. Despite changes to elite specs for 3 live cycles, the “meta” is still 6 builds – most of which have been the same each cycle. It would be even less if ESL hadn’t implemented a “one of each profession” rule.

There is only one answer: nerf HoT specs. Until that happens, PvP in GW2 will continue to circle the drain.

So what does that nerf look like? Does daredevil lose 3rd evade? What i think you’re saying is that you have to take the elite traitline to be competitive. So if you had an equally powerful elite to choose as an alternitive to the HoT spec, wouldn’t that give you more diversity?

R O C.6574:

Are you sure it’s not METABattle’s fault?

The top meta builds get discovered and start to appear in games way before that crappy site starts catching up. All they do is basically copy/paste what they see in pro league matches.

R O C.6574:

Are you sure it’s not METABattle’s fault? I think 80% of PVPer’s just go there to get a decent build and go with it. The seasons get really competitive and everyone is paranoid that losing will trash their MMR. So the don’t risk experimental builds. I’ve been playing since 2012 and METABattle was not as prevalent as it is now. Back when the game was new, people had to come up with there own build and the META was a secret to be discovered. Now the best builds are laid out for all to see, so that’s all you see…

There used to be a site (can’t remember it now) that listed “glass cannon” “bunker” and “balanced” builds for every profession.

LOL no its not meta battle, ive said this before but right before HOT i was doing the AG tournies and you would see alot of different builds. I saw 1 ele play conjure weapons and beat D/D eles. Problem with the build was it needed staff so it lacked some mobility.

I saw all 3 guardian builds in AG from burn/bunker/ medi dps. I played a staff ele and warrior had the DPS rampage build/ or the team support shoutbow.

Meta battle is not the problem. I mean just looked at the Pro leagues so far.

Season 1 was the worst bunker meta ever do the point that a team made a small mistake and quit after the other team capped a point.

Season 2 every team runs almost exactly the same team comp and builds with engy/ranger/ele being the 5th option and having warrior, thief, guardian sit on the bench.

Anet/ESL had to make a no class stacking rule which we didnt have until Anet broke D/D ele and decided not to fix it until HOT came out.

Even when you go back and look at WTS 1 and WTS 2 there are some obvious build favorites but every class was in play. Unique builds depending on the team comp were viable.

Metabattle didnt break this game.

People, people. do NOT blame metabattle. Metabattle is just a hub for builds that are a)most popular, b) found to be strong/ top tier in either game mode. People are not forced into playing only 1 build because of metabattle….thats Anets fault.

I’ve said it a few time and i’ll say it again. It was the dumbing down of traits patch, last June, the one before HOT, that killed build diversity in this game.

We went from 6 different options per Trait advancement (Adept, GM, major etc) to just 3, so the choice of 1/3 for the best trait is much more obvious compared to 1/6, meaning less diversity and chance to theory craft.

The addition of elite specs has also killed diversity. I think people are really annoyed that ANET told us elite specs would not be indispensable, but on par with current trait lines, merely providing a new play style etc. This is nonsense. Every elite spec enhances the class so much they are imperative. This, again, has dumbed down our diversity options, because we now have one trait line that everyone must take to remain competitive and for most classes, that elite spec defines how the class is played; (power hammer on scrapper, tempest is clearly support, druid is clearly support etc)

It’s just sad there are 6 trait lines per class, yet only 3 are every used. There is no more surprises, adaptation, play style adjustments etc, just 5 – 6 viable classes with 6 viable builds. This is NOT diversity.

Silverkey.2078:

R O C.6574:

Are you sure it’s not METABattle’s fault? I think 80% of PVPer’s just go there to get a decent build and go with it. The seasons get really competitive and everyone is paranoid that losing will trash their MMR. So the don’t risk experimental builds. I’ve been playing since 2012 and METABattle was not as prevalent as it is now. Back when the game was new, people had to come up with there own build and the META was a secret to be discovered. Now the best builds are laid out for all to see, so that’s all you see…

There used to be a site (can’t remember it now) that listed “glass cannon” “bunker” and “balanced” builds for every profession.

Metabattle is only partly responsible. Actually, one year ago metabattle had already a strong influence on PvP.

The problem is that the build diversity has effectively gone down.

Elite specs have some highly broken mechanics, which creates a huge difference between builds using and having synergy with them and builds which do not.

Also, the absurd pressure that enemies bring (with their own broken elite specs) force you to play a very specific way to be able to survive. For example, the amount of condition is insanely high, so you have very very hard time if you don’t spec against them.

Let us take an example: mesmer (my main).

1. The shield is probably our strongest off-hand with very high defense, very good CC, high illusion generation and some support. Alacrity pretty much improve anything we do as mesmer and F5 allow double cast anything we want. No other traitline give you so much. So we have to run chronomancer (broken elite spec)
2. We need to run inspiration if we want to survive the insane condition output of other classes (including enemy mesmers, how ironic!). Mesmer is otherwise very weak against condis.
3. we have now 1 traitline to pick. That leaves us domination for power, chaos for bunker and illusion for condi. Power has a really low damage output. The burst is high, but with all the defensive elements of enemies, it is not enough to really pressure someone, and we lack follow up damage. That leaves us bunker (Paladin) and condi (Mercenary). Our support is fairly low, so bunker, while definitely playable does not have the same kick as it used to. Condi survives almost as well if not better (benefits from CD reduction of illusion on both shatters and shield block) and synergize very well with the illusion spam traits that chronomancer give you (broken elite spec again). These illusion spam traits also synergize very well with inspiration for more cleanse and heal. Tadaa!!!!! A broken build.

Can you play bunker? Yes but you don’t gain survivability while you lose damage.
Can you play power? Yes, but you lose survivability and you have no damage after your initial burst which everyone can block/evade/invuln or simply fully heal right after.

So yes, in principle you have build diversity, but nowhere near as good as the broken meta specs and small minor variations around them.

You dont absolutely have to run condition removal, while elite specs do limit you there are still some things you can do on mesmer that have yet to be done, the only reason these things havent been used/discovered is because of other classes not fairing as well in the current mesmer role. If say druid could be as useful in the same role mesmer is in at the moment i can guarantee you you would see some variety in builds, the reason why mesmer is stuck in this role is because its quite a vital role and theres really no other class to fill it as well. Im pretty sure if youd be allowed to run 2 of each profession there could be double mesmer with potentially a different build but that brings forth other problems.

It absolutely isnt metabattles fault that the “pro” scene has no build variety, they create what comes up on that site, however metabattle does at least slightly affect what people run in ranked etc. I always try out new builds and such, you can definitely run different things and some things are even more efficient than the meta builds in things like soloq, theres still a decent amount of variety as long as you look out of the pro leagues.

Liam McColgan.7689:

People, people. do NOT blame metabattle. Metabattle is just a hub for builds that are a)most popular, b) found to be strong/ top tier in either game mode. People are not forced into playing only 1 build because of metabattle….thats Anets fault.

I’ve said it a few time and i’ll say it again. It was the dumbing down of traits patch, last June, the one before HOT, that killed build diversity in this game.

We went from 6 different options per Trait advancement (Adept, GM, major etc) to just 3, so the choice of 1/3 for the best trait is much more obvious compared to 1/6, meaning less diversity and chance to theory craft.

The addition of elite specs has also killed diversity. I think people are really annoyed that ANET told us elite specs would not be indispensable, but on par with current trait lines, merely providing a new play style etc. This is nonsense. Every elite spec enhances the class so much they are imperative. This, again, has dumbed down our diversity options, because we now have one trait line that everyone must take to remain competitive and for most classes, that elite spec defines how the class is played; (power hammer on scrapper, tempest is clearly support, druid is clearly support etc)

It’s just sad there are 6 trait lines per class, yet only 3 are every used. There is no more surprises, adaptation, play style adjustments etc, just 5 – 6 viable classes with 6 viable builds. This is NOT diversity.

Metabattle is just a place to record working builds competitively which I think is a helpful tool, and while not every build was tier 1 there were at least options. You would see warriors running all signets and actually be good at it while the meta was axebow. Despite thief countering emta power shatter mes, lockdown mesmer and condi mesmer made their way in as being at least good alternatives. There were some obviously broken builds (turret engi, D/D ele, etc.) but people got creative with their builds.

Now it’s the same thing, every time. Guardians are ALWAYS dragonhunters with no burning, no AH healing guards. People aren’t afraid of trying different builds, the issue is that they do not work. If they don’t want separate balancing for everything, they need to at least balance the elite spec traitlines separately for pvp. They were designed to be OP because they are end game content that you work hard for with extra mechanics. I’m not happy with this because it has made pvp such a stale experience now, and I was already salty before because I got this expansion in october and it downgraded my “warrior” (barely considered a class lol) until just recently and even then it’s not fantastic, just decent.

So like i said, the diversity we want won’t happen until they release new elite specs and the core builds we used to love are gone forever.

Nerfing the HoT specs won’t happen. There are way too many additional mechanics beside OP skills.

R O C.6574, even with new stuff they would make it the only option and be much more effective, and thus overhwelming the actual ones, it would be the same movie over and over and over again.

In terms of class balance and class evolution Gw2 migh be the one of the worse in game industry in all times, i think they should receive a gamming oscar for that achievement.
They keep forcing a broken model.

R O C.6574:

So like i said, the diversity we want won’t happen until they release new elite specs and the core builds we used to love are gone forever.

Core builds in the sense of using 3 core lines is gone.

ANet’s new approach is using the core lines to supplement the elite specs and from there you will start seeing build… role diversity.

Aeolus.3615:

R O C.6574, even with new stuff they would make it the only option and be much more effective, and thus overhwelming the actual ones, it would be the same movie over and over and over again.

In terms of class balance and class evolution Gw2 migh be the one of the worse in game industry in all times, i think they should receive a gamming oscar for that achievement.
They keep forcing a broken model.

I think it’s too soon to tell. Their last chance to redeem themselves will be the addition of new elites and what that does to the meta. The new elites will have to be on par with the HoT elites otherwise it will be an epic fail.

I have a feeling looking at the ranger sustain changes we can’t expect anymore from them. Ill play this game for fun occasionally but not seriously now.

Zelulose.8695:

I have a feeling looking at the ranger sustain changes we can’t expect anymore from them. Ill play this game for fun occasionally but not seriously now.

Even though they’re two different games, since the whole esports thing is getting pushed so much let’s compare it to one of the biggest of that category, League of Legends.

Of course there are some god tier champions in that game, but out of 100+ champions people are using most if not all of them so you’re constantly seeing different builds, strategies and surprises. Pokemon, again, you see top tier pokemon patterns, but generally playing the game not in tournaments, you see people try different strategies in altering abilities, IVs and variations with some success. This is what guild wars 2 lacks right now, it is literally one good build per class (not even all the classes) and if you do not use that build you’re going to under perform. I don’t count changing one or two traits or an amulet as a “new” build.