Guild Wars 2

Though there has been some discussion of this topic in various places already, I do not think anyone has yet presented a clear argument for why casual players are very important for this game to succeed as an esport.

Every day when someone is complaining about something being overpowered 50% of the responses are something along the lines of “well if you have ninja reflexes like me then its fine, l2dodge, l2p”. Even if this was true it does not make the ability balanced.

Here’s why:

1. In order for a game to be an esport it needs to have paid players.
2. For this to happen someone (a sponsor) needs to be willing to pay people money to play a game.
3. These “sponsors” will want something in return.
4. Only thing a game can really offer is viewers/advertising. The more viewers the better – companies like advertising to gamers because they know they are willing to spend vast sums of money on computer hardware.
5. If the game has no casual players because every time they enter pvp they get 1shot by a thief then you have very few viewers. This is the case currently with gw2 – streams have small numbers of highly skilled viewers, no casuals.
6. It follows that you NEED casual appeal and casual players.

You don’t “make” an esport, esports grow out of a large base of players naturally. This could happen with gw2, but they cannot continue to ignore casual players. In particular the “noob stomp” combos in this game should be destroyed entirely: backstab thief, 100b warrior, deathlotus thief, pw thief, hs spam thief, shatterburst mesmer.

LoL and DotA2 both balance like this and they are arguably the most successful esports games right now.

Funny you mention the two games with high learning curves, and high probability of being chain-stunned to death as soon as you meet another player. So why exactly do dota players keep playing after going 0-25 in their first game?

Um, excuse, but no. LoL balances on top ELO players. And DotA does little to aim to perfect balance.

Removing backstab, deathlotus, heartseeker and pw is the same as remaking the whole thief or removing it from the game. So, sorry man that i have to tell you, but you have to learn to deal with it.

I recommend you to read the about 100 posts that there are about these theme. It should clear all the upcoming discussion.

If you are a new player in either of those games you are matchmade with other new players. No hero/champion can just come and gib you at lv1 in either of those games (mostly) so you have a chance to start learning the game. Furthermore most burst stunlock combos in any of those games requires some kind of skill to pull off. Contrast to gw2 where your first experience of any combat is likely to be “You are dead, skill breakdown: backstab 13k, steal 7k. Respawn?” (something that takes absolutely 0 skill to do as well, so a complete noob can noob stomp other noobs).

Sirevanac.3178:

Um, excuse, but no. LoL balances on top ELO players. And DotA does little to aim to perfect balance.

Removing backstab, deathlotus, heartseeker and pw is the same as remaking the whole thief or removing it from the game. So, sorry man that i have to tell you, but you have to learn to deal with it.

I recommend you to read the about 100 posts that there are about these theme. It should clear all the upcoming discussion.

LoL does not balance only for “top” players at all. http://www.reignofgaming.net/tier-lists/competitive-tier-list. Tier 1 has been largely the same forever and guess what in any pro game most if not all the champions will be from that list. Riot even has an “antifun” policy where they nerf things purely because they are not fun to play against.

DotA2 has nerfed huskar/ursa repeatedly despite them being worthless in comp games BECAUSE the community thinks they are op. Also, like LoL, there are about 20 or so heroes at any given time which are pickable in comp games.

Maybe next time argue with facts instead of spreading misinformation.

So using a stun then following up with an ultimate takes skill? Or does it not take skill? I’m confused.

Give me an example so I know what you are talking about.

I would like to ask how is an assassin/killer in Dota2 different in role as compared to burst damage dealers in GW2. I would also like to ask what is the key difference between them, in terms of roles and complexity of use.

ehtom.5047:

LoL does not balance only for “top” players at all. http://www.reignofgaming.net/tier-lists/competitive-tier-list. Tier 1 has been largely the same forever and guess what in any pro game most if not all the champions will be from that list. Riot even has an “antifun” policy where they nerf things purely because they are not fun to play against.

DotA2 has nerfed huskar/ursa repeatedly despite them being worthless in comp games BECAUSE the community thinks they are op. Also, like LoL, there are about 20 or so heroes at any given time which are pickable in comp games.

Maybe next time argue with facts instead of spreading misinformation.

what does the tier list have to do with anything? I’ve been playing and watching patch notes for more than 2 years and i’ve almost never (and i’m saying almost because i dont remember all the patches) seen unjustified nerfs because of community cry. What was “op” a year ago is still op nowadays, but, guess what: people learns to counter what they cant win (unless its a new champ, in which case its slightly more op for marketing stuff and other reasons its not worth saying in this case).

For example, tryndamere is “op” as a year ago, but people learned to use exhaust to counter him. And Tryndamere just stopped showing in random games.

ehtom.5047:

Sirevanac.3178:

Um, excuse, but no. LoL balances on top ELO players. And DotA does little to aim to perfect balance.

Removing backstab, deathlotus, heartseeker and pw is the same as remaking the whole thief or removing it from the game. So, sorry man that i have to tell you, but you have to learn to deal with it.

I recommend you to read the about 100 posts that there are about these theme. It should clear all the upcoming discussion.

LoL does not balance only for “top” players at all. http://www.reignofgaming.net/tier-lists/competitive-tier-list. Tier 1 has been largely the same forever and guess what in any pro game most if not all the champions will be from that list. Riot even has an “antifun” policy where they nerf things purely because they are not fun to play against.

DotA2 has nerfed huskar/ursa repeatedly despite them being worthless in comp games BECAUSE the community thinks they are op. Also, like LoL, there are about 20 or so heroes at any given time which are pickable in comp games.

Maybe next time argue with facts instead of spreading misinformation.

Elementz tier list has been a joke since mid season 1

NoFrillsChampion – 1800 top elo/beta tester

Kid Taylor.5479:

I would like to ask how is an assassin/killer in Dota2 different in role as compared to burst damage dealers in GW2. I would also like to ask what is the key difference between them, in terms of roles and complexity of use.

Since you did not give me an example I will pick one for you – Lina. I will compare her to gw2 thief.

Lina can stunlock down a hero that doesnt have much hp in the mid game (say 7-15 min). However her combo will be unlikely to kill strength heroes or people that have bought a defensive item. It can also miss. She also automatically gets weaker as the game goes on relative to other heroes (as they level up and get money they get more hp making her combo much less effective).

Also, lina is very easy to kill, has no escape mechanism and you can always see her coming (she does not have invis).

So in short, she has to setup her kills, has a small window of time in which to be effective, can only kill certain types of enemy hero and can easily die herself.

Contrast this to the thief: strong the entire game, can burst straight out of invis, very hard to kill and doesnt have to set anything up – you see someone alone you kill them.

Peechez.4195:

Elementz tier list has been a joke since mid season 1

NoFrillsChampion – 1800 top elo/beta tester

Funny how you say hes a joke when hes like 400 elo higher than you have ever been. Also, do you even disagree with my point and think every champ is viable in comp games?

Sirevanac.3178:

what does the tier list have to do with anything? I’ve been playing and watching patch notes for more than 2 years and i’ve almost never (and i’m saying almost because i dont remember all the patches) seen unjustified nerfs because of community cry. What was “op” a year ago is still op nowadays, but, guess what: people learns to counter what they cant win (unless its a new champ, in which case its slightly more op for marketing stuff and other reasons its not worth saying in this case).

For example, tryndamere is “op” as a year ago, but people learned to use exhaust to counter him. And Tryndamere just stopped showing in random games.

Eve.

Wow man, a champion in a hundred. Totally fan-based game. :/

Eve nerf was in fact a clear lesson for them to not to do that again in fact, since they blowed 100% of the jump to the point they had to do a remake that isnt really cool anyway.

Nerf HB when these “casuals” are fine with it. My god this OP is ignorant at a peak level.

If you want a “casual” game why don’t you go back to League of Losers? And if you compare League to DOTA, DOTA has much less players (Where as DOTA has probably 10% of League’s population) since DOTA was made for hard core players and not whiny casuals. DOTA and GW2 isn’t really different when talking about population and skill-level.

the difference between DotA and GW2 is that in GW2 there arent a couple dozen professions each of them strong in one significant role, which allows for endless metagaming. in GW2 there are 2, arguably 3 strong professions and the other 6 are pretty much food for those.

in DotA you can face 5 strong heros with multiple 5 strong (in different areas) heros

in GW2 its always the same matchup with the same profs in the same roles, and thats it.

GW2 needs to have at least 30 profs, all as strong in one particular area as a bunker guardian or a backstab thief to even have something worth being called a meta

currently we do not have that

Strange that you use a caster as an example when there are multiple invisibility type assassins in Dota2. I would assume that there are none who are effective at killing people at the highest level?

You are right that there is no power progression in GW2 while there is one in Dota 2. To me, I don’t think it changes much, nor is it a valid argument. All it would mean is that GW2 is set at the highest level where each class can perform at maximum capacity. There is no mechanic in GW2 that disadvantages casters as time goes on.

While an argument can be made that between the two games, there is a risk in assassinating people with burst/locking heroes because they are weak early on, the removal of the rpg nature of Dota 2 does not change how you yourself have fully explained the weaknesses of thieves or any other burst damage characters.

“So in short, she has to setup her kills, has a small window of time in which to be effective, can only kill certain types of enemy hero and can easily die herself.”

As you yourself have said so, thieves have these glaring weaknesses.

The only thing I believe has merit is the invisibility point. Are thieves too hard to kill because of invisibility? No, in a game where there is straight up full damage mitigation, invulnerability and personal evades, invisibility is relatively weak as a defensive and escape mechanism.

I also believe that the conversation has strayed. The question was whether thieves/burst damage builds would deter casual players from playing the game because they are too overpowered. (something that I contest due to their weaknesses)

The answer is apparently not. Your argument hinges on how if such players are killed by such classes/builds that they will quit the game. While I do not have solid evidence, what has been a rising trend is the increase of the numbers of thieves and mesmers in hot join pvp from comments on the forums and personal play. This is only an observation, but if anyone has numbers to prove/disprove this trend, or even better, show that there is a downward trend for these two classes, I gladly withdraw the argument.

If there are more people playing these classes/build at the “casual” level, does it increase the popularity of the game? Certainly it does, because it is strong, easy to pick up and fun. How does this hurt the casual game?

What I believe is happening now is that people are just discovering how burst builds are able to take down many badly specced builds in spvp. As more people discover these builds, more people will try them out, and realize for themselves the weaknesses of such builds in hot join.

@Schwahrheit: Rofl. I played LoL for about 2 weeks and found it boring so I went back to DotA2 where I play consistently in the “Very High” skill bracket soloqueue. Calling me a casual noob is nothing short of hilarious. I’m saying that casual players are important because they are – I hope anet ignores players like you.

@Kid Taylor: You were talking about “stun then ulti” heroes. There are no invis assassins which do this. Invis assassins are based around physical damage and have no stuns. I could make another long reply about how they arent like thieves but I wont, its getting far too off topic.

Also thieves are definately op, there isnt even an argument here anymore. Xeph (top mesmer player) made a post the other day saying that thieves and mesmers are “broken” and that he is surprised that they arent being nerfed. I’m making a different point, that this sort of burst doesnt make pvp fun and raises the barrier of entry.

rikimaru waves at you and laugh about gw2 thief.

and mobas and mmorpg are 2 different kind of games which are different in balance and fix. in 90 champs dota have maybe 30 heroes complete enough to be played in tournaments, rest is for pub, as for lol….when anet will put 40 classes in gw2 your argument could be quite valid…till that day, no..l2p.
every game should be balanced at high level because at low level there are a lot of mistakes and wrong stuff….. but go on spreading kitten (i have wrote really kitten to help forum lol )

There are effectively 40+ classes in gw2, just most of them not viable at all. e.g. tank mesmer, dps guardian, dps ele, conditions mesmer, etc. They should ideally all be viable and could be with some reworking of traits and tweaks to the ridiculous builds.

If we could get past the thieves, that are so occupied with defending their class and backstab that they can’t engage in a discussion, then maybe we could discuss the topic at hand instead?

I never played LoL, but the question about for whom we balance the game, and how do we approach eachother when facing problems with different classes, is interesting.

esports also don’t force one set of regional players to play at 200-300ms, while anther regional set has 50ms. Competition begins with a level playing field, which is not the case.

In Dota you can see what the enemies setup will be which makes it easier to counter stuff. You can also buy items there to help you counter OP or crazy damage stuff more. Force staff / BKB. You dont get that in this game.

It also takes farming and good play during the start of the game before any invis hero will be one shotting like thiefs do. Thiefs do it right off the bat with no buildup and less ways to counter it. There are also far far more ways to dispell invisibility. It is in NO way a weak or inferior defense mechanic. Right now with it being bugged, its probably one of the strongest.

With over a hundred hero’s and a ton of items the meta game is more fluid in dota than in gw2. There are more counters and ways to play around ‘the current big thing’.
I dont see gw2 meta moving on its own very much so developers need to keep a close eye.

ehtom.5047:

If you are a new player in either of those games you are matchmade with other new players. No hero/champion can just come and gib you at lv1 in either of those games (mostly) so you have a chance to start learning the game. Furthermore most burst stunlock combos in any of those games requires some kind of skill to pull off. Contrast to gw2 where your first experience of any combat is likely to be “You are dead, skill breakdown: backstab 13k, steal 7k. Respawn?” (something that takes absolutely 0 skill to do as well, so a complete noob can noob stomp other noobs).

I really wanted to get into those games but whenever I played i just got totally annihilated.

Compared with GW2 I took my level 2 thief to the mists, had little idea of a build and hadn’t memorized my keybinds but still did totally fine. Some of the other classes were a little harder but it has always been relatively easy to have a good time in spvp, while at the same there is a lot of depth to each class.

So I think spvp is fairly casual friendly, probably the biggest barrier is understanding amulets/builds/ how to move etc. ; but that only takes maybe an hour or so to adjust to.

Maybe the thief description should say “good for spvp beginners, even noobs can pawn kitten ”