Guild Wars 2

A rational thread regarding the changing on weapons during a tpvp game.

I.e, you open up your backpack, equip new set, use appropriate skills, after battle open backback and swap sets etc.

Now I play ele, I have a build which accomodates s/d, s/f and staff so thats like 60 skills I can utilitse, numerous hastes, fields w/e. And it’s obviously great as I love the flexibility.

However from an e-sports perspective, do spectators really want to see people opening their backpacks every 3 seconds and swapping out? Surely tactical gameplay should be around what you enter the tournament with, not what you can swap out to.

Will be interesting to see the responses. I’d be quite happy with a block on weapon set changing, but then again I do like the current flexibility.

No, in my opinion absolutely not.
There is no reason at all to weapon swapping and way less reason to limit some professions to have no weapon swapping at all.
To me, changing weapon in PvP feels like cheating.

Unnecessary micromanagement. Right now you have to carry all kinds of spare kitten around, open up the player interface and fiddle with it while the game is going on. Not exactly engaging gameplay. Also, slightly broken. Put long buffs on cooldown, switch in a different set, nothing on cooldown. The only possible drawback is being engaged with the wrong set on. I really wanted to avoid the shieldswap bs tbh.

The swapping to get buffs is not a big issue imo since u can only do it “out of combat”. It can probably be exploited to some extent but /shrug

On the other side, I like the flexibility, cause sometimes the fight dont go as expected : unusual build from your opponent or whatever, you might want to adjust your tactic, and sometimes this requires using different weapons/traits mid-game.

Yeah that’s another thing that bothers me. Your build should be a commitment once the game starts, to encourage people to run balanced, adaptable builds. Otherwise you can just go ‘oh gimmick 1 didn’t work, but gimmick 2 counters them hard’.

I think we all have it pretty much same
we like the possibilities it brinks but hate the way we have to execute it (open inventory, …)

we do it because we know it gives us edge over opponent who doesn’t and if we don’t then he may have an advantage for doing so

therefore I’m for disabling it

I would tend to agree more with disabling it.

Once you enter tpvp your traits and backpack should be locked. Only your utilities you should be able to change around.

At the moment I’m swapping out 2 traits and 3 weapon sets almost every game on the ele. It’s tiresome and for people watching, yeah sure they see a different type of game play, but watching someone open their bags and their traits is just meh.

I’d prefer people who when chosen their builds, stick with them on entering. utilities I dont mind people swapping, but even that’s arguable.

Forum ate my long reply, so here’s a short one.

Traits, skills and items should all be locked in PVP once the match starts. In WvW, it should be locked as soon as you’re outside of a friendly fort.

Otherwise, we might be seeing just the tip of the swap iceberg. Imagine placing builds on a macro so that, as soon as you see an enemy character, you can press a button and load that character’s exact counter.

I would like to see this one disabled. If you want to have the extra “swiftness buff” then you should stick with that weapon. Now everyone can simply swap.. for swiftness.

some classes even can change in order to be more effective against specific build.

so yea, just disable it and it would be great.

Also in addition, i would like to see a system where players are able to switch class in between games (while waiting) but not after one of the team enter the map for fight. From that moment on – any changes shouldnt be possible. And i mean any changes for all 5 members – in order to avoid this “counter your class” mentality and let people actaully think about their builds in advance and make them “balanced” not countering something..

but this one we allready discussed in different topic

I don’t think people should be able to switch weapon sets, build or traits during an ongoing sPvP/tPvP match.

I agree that it should be disabled. Either in its entirety (skills, weapon, amulet) or just disable gear change in all of sPvP as this should be a simple fix to implement.

This would encourage balanced build and also remove the hassle of playing for that small edge as it isn’t supported in a good way by the interface.

I can see a point in allowing utility’s to be switch as the interface for it is already there and simple. I also recognize that adaptability and reading is a skill in itself and should be rewarded, so what I really would want to see (if it didn’t cost a lot of development resources as there is more important stuff) is if you had a interface for switching to another build/sPvP -toon during re-spawn in sPvP but could only do it once or twice during the match. The loaded toon is still locked in gear, but allows skill change out of combat.

Like the side deck in Magic the gathering

Its not a MTG side deck as long as you speak about changing during the game. Even at respawn its “during the game”.

side deck in Guild Wars 2 is while waiting in MISTS – there you can change anything you want even your class, but once your team is going to the map – you are telling “im ready” no other changes should be allowed.

Back in GW1 i remember while we were waiting for next opponent, we offten checked observer in order to see our possible next opponents tactic and buid. Then we addapted. But it was in the game lobby, not in started game.

These two are a big difference as i see it. You should be able to change or switch class. But not in game that started. Even one of your teammembers entered the game, that should lock other members as well.

I just typed the same post up in my outlook and then saw this one when coming to post it Great minds think alike hehe.

I agree with the general consensus here and am hoping that anet will eventually lock your build in once you start playing the matches. Much like your dual spec in wow you should not be able to change once you have seen what the other team have as far as build and weapons go.

Also its really annoying to feel I have to keep changing traits and weapons in order to get on the same playing field as the other team.

On the flip side sometimes you can tell someone is doing this (autorun into obstacles anyone?) and quickly dispatch of them before they do the swap. Or engage them in combat when they have their swiftness buff offhand out instead of their defensive off

They should make a macro for it, I always swap mine focus for speed buff (mesmer). Sometimes I forget to swap it back lol or misclick

I don’t think it should be allowed, as I actually do feel like this creates class imbalance. For instance, as an Engineer, there is no weapon set that offers me a speed boost without speccing into it or using a CD. As an Engineer, you can swap in a staff out of combat, get a short series of sprint bursts to move across the map, then swap back to mace/shield and hammer and still be just as tanky, even though you just breezed across the board like a roamer class.

I kinda love the weapon swap :P
Riffle for defence or knocking away the enemy defender and shield for the extra cc when i roam :P

Aragiel.6132:

Its not a MTG side deck as long as you speak about changing during the game. Even at respawn its “during the game”.

side deck in Guild Wars 2 is while waiting in MISTS – there you can change anything you want even your class, but once your team is going to the map – you are telling “im ready” no other changes should be allowed.

Back in GW1 i remember while we were waiting for next opponent, we offten checked observer in order to see our possible next opponents tactic and buid. Then we addapted. But it was in the game lobby, not in started game.

These two are a big difference as i see it. You should be able to change or switch class. But not in game that started. Even one of your teammembers entered the game, that should lock other members as well.

It was just a suggestion I’m all pro just disabling it all in all as that is the simple fast solution.

The point of the suggestion was that IF you want on-the-fly adaptation be a skill that matters in the game it should be implemented in such a way that you can select a different build from a already decided preset and do it a limited amount of times (IMHO).

On the MTG analogy. It is hard to compare a card game to a real time PC game, just used it as a reference. Your view of using it just between matches is valid, but you can also look at it from a perspective of each encounter *during * a match as a single round and therefor allow switches at re-spawn. Especially as a tPvP finals is a best-of-one while most MTG setups are usually a best-of-X where X>1.

If this kind of skill set is something that should be promoted in the game or not is for me up for debate, it has several pros and cons as I see it.

Gear, weapon and trait setups should, in my opinion, be locked from the time you submit the roster until the time you’re officially out of the entire tournament.

Being able to swap gear/traits, and even classes doesn’t encourage versatile, take-all-comers teambuilds. It merely encourages counter-comping every round. While there’s certainly an argument to be made that proper counter-comping is a skill in itself, I’d argue that it’s much less of a skill than bringing a rounded, balanced teambuild that can deal with all aspects of the metagame simultaneously.

I see your point now – with the MTG analogy. But still im not fun of any changes in game even if death could be counted as (end of round).

In fact im guessing in future with custom servers – we will see leagues and tournaments organized by players where not single elimination rulez will be applied but even different tournament system and not only BO1 but maybe BO3 or other formats..

but thanks for explaining your suggestion in more details.

No, you shouldn’t be able to change your weapons, utility skills, traits, armor, or jewels in my opinion. There’s an extra learning curve in getting to know the metagame, and what to prepare for, before you start a match. When you are able to change all your gear in the game, this gets ruined. Not knowing what you are going to come up against, and then having to make the best out of a bad situation, is a lot of fun. That’s when player skill show it’s true face.

I would absolutely hate having it locked.

Some classes pretty much NEED the ability to swap on the fly and adapt. Other classes don’t (thieves for example).

This is the same thing as being able to change from ‘assault’ to ‘support’ or ‘recon’ in between lives in any FPS.

It brings further tactical choices to the game and micromanagement which is a good thing, more complexity is almost always best. Furthermore a removal of the ability to adapt while OUT OF COMBAT would further emphasize a cookie cutter build style of play that promotes single builds/comps rather than diversity.

I would absolutely hate having it locked.

Some classes pretty much NEED the ability to swap on the fly and adapt. Other classes don’t (thieves for example).

This is the same thing as being able to change from ‘assault’ to ‘support’ or ‘recon’ in between lives in any FPS.

It brings further tactical choices to the game and micromanagement which is a good thing, more complexity is almost always best. Furthermore a removal of the ability to adapt while OUT OF COMBAT would further emphasize a cookie cutter build style of play that promotes single builds/comps rather than diversity.

In tournament FPS games, you will very rarely see players change classes, simply because they have a very strict strategy. The difference is also that in a FPS, you can’t change your survivability. Everyone dies the same way, with the same amount of bullets. In Guild Wars 2 however, any profession can change his/her survivability at any time. If you for instance are playing against a lot of direct damage builds, you can change your jewels to gain a lot more toughness protection. This then evolves as the enemy team finds out you are using a different jewel set, so they decide to change their profession skill sets to deal condition damage instead of direct damage, and do more control. So now you have to take this into account. And all of this will only spiral downwards as the metagame gets more set, and micromanaging will end up becoming 50% of the game. In short; the problem is that there are too many variables in an MMO, compared to an FPS game.

Braxxus.2904:

I would absolutely hate having it locked.

Some classes pretty much NEED the ability to swap on the fly and adapt. Other classes don’t (thieves for example).

This is the same thing as being able to change from ‘assault’ to ‘support’ or ‘recon’ in between lives in any FPS.

It brings further tactical choices to the game and micromanagement which is a good thing, more complexity is almost always best. Furthermore a removal of the ability to adapt while OUT OF COMBAT would further emphasize a cookie cutter build style of play that promotes single builds/comps rather than diversity.

I get what you’re saying but I don’t honestly think the game is supposed to be balanced around weapon set swapping.

For e.g, you specifically use a weapon set which gives you a swiftness and swap back again, if it was so that you couldnt swap out weapons would you change your build for it?

Another example, would be if a point holder was losing vs X class and stuck on a different amulet and started beating said class is this acceptable?

Or, an ele uses X build and Y weapons for looking after point, but then switches out to Z weapons for roaming. Is this too much flexibility?

It’s minor tweaks, and unfortunately the ele has the most versatile way of looking at it as they can often use multi sets and multi amulets. I just don’t think the game was supposed to be balanced this way.

I’m sure if they left it like this multi weapon sets builds would become the norm. Is this something we want to promote?

I think it should be disabled in tPvP during the match. Trait, Skill, and Weapon choices should not be changeable once the match starts… because that is a major part of the game itself.

However, in between rounds, all weapons/traits/skills should be up for grabs. This should be the time used by a team to adapt to the last round in whatever way they decide.

Choosing your Weapons, Traits, and Skills should be a very important and carefully discussed strategy with your team. As a viewer of eSports… I want to know the 5 builds going in, and not have to constantly keep up with 10 different players and their ever changing builds trying to “out-meta” each other. Also, it would be exciting and interesting to see them change these builds in between matches to try to “out-meta” each other. There’s got to be a limit on it though, or it will not be easy to follow for a viewer.

Save the “on the fly” switching of this stuff for sPvP (randoms), and WvW.

+ Should be allowed to change weapons (hey, we’re allowed to change utilities).
- Not allowed to change traits
- Not allowed to change characters (tie a character as the only toon you can log into during an on-going tournament)
- Not allowed to change sigils/runes/gear

When I tried pvp for the first time, I noticed that hotbar skills could be changed on the fly. I was pretty shocked.

Then about a day later it dawned on me that traits/amulets/weapons could all be swapped during a match. The ramifications should be obvious to even the most casual of players.

It’s a huge can of worms, and people in this thread have already given good technical examples of why this negatively affects competitive gameplay. Sometimes… less is more, Yeah?

So, here is my casual opinion. Fun factor.
Shuffling around in my inventory/trait menu after a respawn or fight is not fun. I’m at a huge disadvantage if I don’t abuse this, and if I do abuse it, it greatly affects my enjoyment.

Myself (and I bet most other “gamers”) despise interuptions of action oriented gameplay. Menus suck. It’s as simple as that. I’m also not interested in watching this crap as a spectator.

Once you start a match everything should be locked. Including weapons and utilities.

Since the SPvP is supposed to be the casual pick-up fun portion. I don’t see the problem with it there. But in TPvP there shouldn’t be such versatility because of the obvious negative effects it could have on a match, turning it very gimmicky. I also agree with the no changing characters during TPvP maps, it will force teams to play more balanced builds or then extreme build wars-ing for the maps.

“aydenunited.5729

I don’t think it should be allowed, as I actually do feel like this creates class imbalance. For instance, as an Engineer, there is no weapon set that offers me a speed boost without speccing into it or using a CD. As an Engineer, you can swap in a staff out of combat, get a short series of sprint bursts to move across the map, then swap back to mace/shield and hammer and still be just as tanky, even though you just breezed across the board like a roamer class."

Eh? Since when could engineers use staffs, hammers and maces!

Never.

1. It’s a pain in the kitten I don’t want to be at a disadvantage because I don’t feel like micromanaging crap in my bags.

2. It devalues certain weapons.

Same goes for swapping utilities/traits.

Weapon swapping should be locked.

Even more important, swapping characters between matches should be locked. It’s silly that people swap to their Mesmer for Battle of Kyhlo. (tPvP) Just have someone lose their queue when they log in with another character.

I think swapping weapons/characters is fine before the match but should not happen after the match begins. If any weapon swapping is allowed after the match starts it should only be in the spawn area.

I think swapping weapons/characters is fine before the match but should not happen after the match begins. If any weapon swapping is allowed after the match starts it should only be in the spawn area.

My problem with character swapping is it inherently shows balance problems. If every team has someone swapping to Mesmer for Kyhlo, clearly something needs to be fixed. Most of the time people character swap for some map advantage that profession provides.

forcing 1 set of equips to face varied teams is dumb. you need to adjust your stuff. it’s part of the strategy.

forcing 1 set of equips to face varied teams is dumb.

Then why lock down traits at all? Might as well let us change traits in the middle of a match to adjust for varied teams.

Answer: because it compels people to play silly cheesy micro-management in order to min/max and feel competitive. It’s like Diablo 3 and MF-swapping debacle some months ago.

It adds ridiculous depth to each game, but not in anyway does it add to the game play. So what’s the point?

Gilgamesh.2561:

forcing 1 set of equips to face varied teams is dumb.

Then why lock down traits at all? Might as well let us change traits in the middle of a match to adjust for varied teams.

Answer: because it compels people to play silly cheesy micro-management in order to min/max and feel competitive. It’s like Diablo 3 and MF-swapping debacle some months ago.

im in favor of adjustable traits while in match.

Maybe we should let people swap characters entirely during a match. That way when you lose to a class the one you’re playing against is weak vs, you can swap to another one and kill the guy, until he swaps to a different character and kills you, at which point you’ll probably have to swap to a different character to kill him back, but then he’ll swap to a different character and kill you again, and yay, LoginWars2 is such fun!

im in favor of adjustable traits while in match.

Yea, so the best teams are those who cheese AutoHotkey scripts to quickly populate traits for best min/max given any situation.

Gilgamesh.2561:

im in favor of adjustable traits while in match.

Yea, so the best teams are those who cheese AutoHotkey scripts to quickly populate traits for best min/max given any situation.

that’s not bad at all.

the ability to customize while in match avoids strong builds vs weak builds match. people with “weak builds” can adjust and have the chance to go against the one’s with stronger built team. it avoids build wars and “the strong build auto wins”.

How is that not bad? What people want to be changing traits in match rather then playing? You also completely ignore the fact that people with macros to do this will make it necessary.

It also doesn’t in any way reward people who put thought and effort into their comp and builds prior to the roster being submitted. It moves the ability to counter people away from simply ‘play better’ to ‘change your build a bit so it trumps theirs’.

There’s no skill in counter-comping when you see what you’re up against. There’s skill in understanding the metagame and building robust teambuilds that aren’t reliant on broken classes or abilities.

Anecdotally/Speculatively, I suspect that most of the time, the people in favour of counter-comping are the same people who are trying to play at a level higher than their actual skill level, and who need those kinds of crutches to fill in the gaps in their own capabilities.

basedgulp.6903:

How is that not bad? What people want to be changing traits in match rather then playing? You also completely ignore the fact that people with macros to do this will make it necessary.

will they change their traits throughout the match?

i mean change traits every 2 minutes?

no.

Arc.9374:

It moves the ability to counter people away from simply ‘play better’ to ‘change your build a bit so it trumps theirs’.

well there are times that even when you play better, it doesn’t hack it because the team that you’re facing has an OP build compared to yours. And if everything is autolocked then you’re kittened. Ability to adjust mid match avoids you to autolose in this scenario and actually gives you a chance to win.

Then learn the lesson and improve the build for the future. If you’re getting stomped by a team with a better build than yours, it’s probably because (ideal world clause applies here – the game isn’t in that state atm) they put more effort into their preparation.

They shouldn’t be rewarded for putting more effort into their team synergy prematch/the time they spent practicing and working the kinks out?

edit:
Additionally:

will they change their traits throughout the match?

i mean change traits every 2 minutes?

no.

lolwat.

So you’re up against a condition heavy team. You all swap your traits and gear a bit to be more resilient to conditions, but lose some survivability against burst. They figure this out 2 minutes later and swap their gear and traits around to be more bursty and less condition focussed. Crap. Guess you gotta respec again, until they respec to counter your counter again, that is.

Arc.9374:

Then learn the lesson and improve the build for the future. If you’re getting stomped by a team with a better build than yours, it’s probably because (ideal world clause applies here – the game isn’t in that state atm) they put more effort into their preparation.

They shouldn’t be rewarded for putting more effort into their team synergy prematch/the time they spent practicing and working the kinks out?

then it’s build wars all over again. the best build will be the one being played and it will all be mirror matches of that best build.

there will be no boring mirror matches if you can adjust your build mid match.

If the game is properly balanced, that shouldn’t be an issue.

If it’s not properly balanced, it will be an issue, and the game will never be an eSport.

Onus is on ANet not to screw it up, in that case,

Arc.9374:

lolwat.

So you’re up against a condition heavy team. You all swap your traits and gear a bit to be more resilient to conditions, but lose some survivability against burst. They figure this out 2 minutes later and swap their gear and traits around to be more bursty and less condition focussed. Crap. Guess you gotta respec again, until they respec to counter your counter again, that is.

this is easy to solve mechanics wise. set a cooldown timer for the ability to respec?

If there’s a cd then nobody respecs, because your opponent can respec to counter yours while you’re waiting on the cd from your first respec to come back up, meaning that for however long that is, you’re losing (assuming equal skill levelled teams).

It’s all needless complexity, simply to pander to people who aren’t prepared to build versatile.

Arc.9374:

If the game is properly balanced, that shouldn’t be an issue.

If it’s not properly balanced, it will be an issue, and the game will never be an eSport.

Onus is on ANet not to screw it up, in that case,

Arc.9374:

If there’s a cd then nobody respecs, because your opponent can respec to counter yours while you’re waiting on the cd from your first respec to come back up, meaning that for however long that is, you’re losing (assuming equal skill levelled teams).

It’s all needless complexity, simply to pander to people who aren’t prepared to build versatile.

this would be true if an immediate counter could be found by the enemy after you respec. i will assume that anet will allow a rock paper scissors game.