Guild Wars 2

alcopaul.2156:

Arc.9374:

If the game is properly balanced, that shouldn’t be an issue.

If it’s not properly balanced, it will be an issue, and the game will never be an eSport.

Onus is on ANet not to screw it up, in that case,

the reason that im in favor of customization mid match is to prevent the autowin build wars scenario. if the game is properly balance, the ideal outcome of build customization midmatch is to at least equalize the playing field.

Autowin compositions should never exist.

Instead of forcing players to do something that is not fun, but necessary – ANet could simply force players to carefully consider their team composition prior to playing, and fix anything that pops up as “too strong”.

Sky.9347:

ANet could simply force players to carefully consider their team composition prior to playing, and fix anything that pops up as “too strong”.

this is destructive to the skill pool and will be a repeat of guild wars 1, which is baed.

with this mindset, some skills will be underpowered that they wont be played anymore.

Sky.9347:

Autowin compositions should never exist.

Sure, autowin compositions won’t exist if everything is a mirror match, which is the final outcome of “nerfing overpowered skills because they are the autowin skills arising from the inability to customize midgame.”

alcopaul.2156:

Sky.9347:

Autowin compositions should never exist.

Sure, autowin compositions won’t exist if everything is a mirror match, which is the final outcome of “nerfing overpowered skills because they are the autowin skills arising from the inability to customize midgame.”

I never said that. I don’t think there are any “autowin” skills right now (except maybe Moa in a 1v1 setting), and there certainly aren’t any “autowin” compositions this early in the game.

If, over the course of time, all high level teams begin running the same builds this is the perfect red-flag to tell the design team there is a problem. There should be several possible and viable team compositions.

If you allow continuous composition tweaking, the game becomes tweaking instead of playing. It’s boring, annoying, unfun to do, unfun to watch, and begins to immensely reward any team who finds a way to circumvent the system.

alcopaul.2156:

Sky.9347:

ANet could simply force players to carefully consider their team composition prior to playing, and fix anything that pops up as “too strong”.

this is destructive to the skill pool and will be a repeat of guild wars 1, which is baed.

with this mindset, some skills will be underpowered that they wont be played anymore.

Which, much like my last post said about compositions, would be the perfect red-flag to tell designers that these skills needed something.

Combine this with the red-flags they will get by watching the meta-game and team compositions, and all of a sudden they have specific places to make small modifications to add new and viable compositions to the game WITHOUT nerfing anything.

very interesting to read the opinions regarding this. after reading I’d say I’m inclined to agree with those that feel as though teams should be committed to their builds upon a team mate entering the tournament map. currently it seems fairly common for premades and coordinated groups to send in a teammate with a “staple” build to inform the rest of the group on the opposition’s group composition where by the rest of the group changes characters/builds to directly counter, which seems suspect to me. perhaps this could be limited to the paid tournaments, once implemented, as they’ll be the only competitions of actual consequence. this would also appear to be a great way to further develop the meta.

I think this is blown way out of proportion.

I’ve played over 1000 tournaments and I have never once thought it was an issue.

Say I play a melee range class and someone gets the notion to swap to a ranged weapon to counter me then whatever. Doesn’t bother me.

Maybe that mesmer tosses out that swiftness buff mid match. A low mobility class getting a little swiftness is an issue?

Maybe my team is running heavy conditions and they swap to condition removal utilities and traits mid match. So what? Good for them. Every trait changed is still something they give up.

One main argument I’m seeing is “I don’t wanna open my bag so make it so others can’t” How is that even an argument?

Are there really players sitting around going, “Darn it! those OP swiftness buffs!” or “I just got countered, the enemy must have just swapped to some cheese because my skilled self would never die otherwise.”

The reality is that if you are winning, why would you need to swap out traits or weapons? You’re already doing what works. If you’re getting smashed, 99.9% of the time people aren’t really going to know why until after the match and they’ve discussed the loss but maybe once in a while maybe someone will decide the other team is too bursty (say a team of thieves or whatever) and they put in a soldier amulet to keep from dying so quickly. Having the ability to adapt on the fly is good.

I think its a much safer bet this feature will save people from gimmick team comps much more than it will create them.

People are acting like there is some game breaking imbalance going on, or rather they are predicting it will ruin sPVP. Thing is though; people have been predicting impending doom on this issue since beta. Yet the game is well underway and again, after more than 1000 matches I have never once has it seemed like a problem.

There is a lot of counters. I dont see it as part of strategy during the combat (well, during the game). You can theorycraft and adapt while waiting in lobby, but why in running game?

let me say what i do very often. As a defensive mesmer Im holding point, i see Thief is runing for my point. While normally Thief have an edge on my spec, i changed my amulet from defenzive to offensive. That way i got more dmg and can kill him before he kills me. While in my defensive state, i just dont have enough dmg and he eventually after some time will probably kill me. So this simple change increased my chances to fight him like 50%. In fact from that point on i knew i dont even need any backup from my team.
After that, i switched one of my defenzive utility skill to portal, puted it on my point switched from bag to focus and used my swiftness buff, then run to the middle point. There i switch the elite skill for Time Wrap to help my team, Maybe chaos storm from my staff. While i have now my offensive amulet – then it actually help a lot. From this point i see this time a guardian is running for my point. So i can put portal, and teleport back to my point. Im in combat, but before the guardian will be here i can switch back to my defensive amulet set. This time the guardian will not kill me because im again much more defensive or on same level with defense as he and in fact i can dance with him on my point forever. That way i gave plenty of time to my teammates to send me one burst character to help. Well, this would not happend with my offensive amulet, he would kill me.

So in my game, im switching from defensive to offensive amulets based on the class that is going for me. Im also changing it in order to be efective in middle point fights and on top of that i can even switch utility skills to grant me another advantage.

Not do you really think this is balanced? Is this how the game should work? Due to this switch i can adapt to my opponent before he even get to me..
I strongly believe this is something that shouldnt be allowed – especiatelly if we are aiming for E-Sport.

Aragiel.6132:

Stuff

So what you’re saying is that you spent a lot of extra time making smart tactical decisions on the fly, utilizing more actions per minute than you would “playing it straight” and adapted to conditions surrounding you…..

And this is…. bad? Somehow “less skilled”?

I just really don’t understand the bad part in any of what you described. At all.

Braxxus.2904:

Aragiel.6132:

Stuff

So what you’re saying is that you spent a lot of extra time making smart tactical decisions on the fly, utilizing more actions per minute than you would “playing it straight” and adapted to conditions surrounding you…..

And this is…. bad? Somehow “less skilled”?

I just really don’t understand the bad part in any of what you described. At all.

Im saying that Im totaly negating any of the opponents “tactical” decisions which would normaly lead to change in tactic for my team. And Im actually doing it by switching of my gear and utility skills.

this dont make me less skilled but for the game its not good in my point of view. The game should be more about tactic and team decisions than about changing gear. What will you do as an observer? or lets say caster? Will you just check and say.. oh well, this mesmer switched his gear and he is now ready to fight the guardian coming for him? I dont see that funny. Instead i would love to adapt by actaully team tactic and knowelage.

What im saying is that basically i won my personal fight the moment i saw the opponent running for it. Without this – the situation could be different. Without this gear change, i should inform my team that there is going a class XX that im not able to handle with my spec, and my team should chose different class to go defend. And do it actaully fast. That would actually promote team play a bit more.

Aragiel

What im saying is that basically i won my personal fight the moment i saw the opponent running for it. Without this – the situation could be different.

So weapons equipped on class A vs weapons equipped on class B is such an overwhelmingly powerful decider of a fight that it determines victor that easily? And without this…. it’s somehow better? Wouldn’t that just mean it’s even less skill based and even more “Oh kitten, I’m on the wrong class with the wrong build. Why bother Instant loss”.

Sounds exciting.

Some classes btw never have to change weapons, or only do it for a very specific speed buff. Other classes run this speed buff perma without any real investment. For some classes the ability to weapon swap helps to make up for shortcomings in the balance of the game.

Sure, if ANet balances everything so 1v1 is across the board, every weapon is viable, every build is viable, every class has access to perma swiftness (or none do), then it might be a reduction in the skill level and complexity of the game I could swallow.

I just can’t for the life of me ever really support an idea that REMOVES a higher skill cap, removes complexity and promotes win/loss through pre-determined build based outcomes.

“Oh, it’s a frost mage vs a warrior. Instant win for mage, yawn.” No thanks.

there is of course more than that whats determine the output of the fight but i was refering mostly to utility skill changes and amulets changes. Since that can means going from total offense to total turtle in few clics. Ok, maybe not total but you got the point.
And thats of course highly determining the outputs of matches.
Back to my example, thief would ruin my defensive spec just because i can´t kill the Thief with my dmg. so switching to offensive amulets gave me more than i need to fight him sucessfully. And lets say he his a smart person so next round he tells his team – hey.. there is offensive mesmer standing on the point so very easily our bunker can get that point. so his team made smart tactic decision which should normally lead to their advantage or change of tactic in my team. But instead it only leads to change in my equipment while i just change amulet from offensive to defensive and can hold that guardian forever on my point – while i can even prepare myself by utility skills.

so once again .. thse smart decisions are just helping to avoid tactic and teams to really think about their answers. When you go to the game, you should be prepared “tactical wise” but not have your answers in your bag.

Back in GW1 it wasnt possible to change anyting in started game.. so teams were thinking in advance to have their builds utilized and more balanced. Then they were able to counter not by switching by mostly by their tactic. And thas what im looking for in GW2 as well.

I’m with Aragiel here, having no swaps results in forcing more tactical decisions teamplay wise, which are much harder to do than simple equipment/skills swaps. It is also something spectators can see, while they probably won’t be able to see amulet swaps. Besides swapping stuff midgame just ain’t fun, which should be the main reason for anyone to play this game.

I dunno. I guess I just won’t understand how taking choices and variables away adds to tactical teamplay decisions.

All I see out of it is “Crap, my build is completely countered by this team which I had no way of knowing pre-game. Guess I’ll just take it up the pooper for 5-10 mins and eat the loss”.

Maybe it’s because I don’t have a team that is on as much as I am so once we get our matches in, I am solo queuing until the next time. Often hours and hours between days of solo queuing tourneys. For me, being completely stuck in a single weapon choice for 100% of the match (I don’t really ever swap amulets or traits much tbh, but it’s nice that it’s an option) would lead me to play many classes less. In fact it’d probably lead me to cease playing any class that couldn’t maintain consistant team support and 1v1 capability at all times without changing a single thing ever.

So my mesmer. And…. maybe my engineer or elementalist. But chances are just my mesmer.

Also unlike a good many players I’m sure, the more I’m not personally in control of the outcome of any given situation the less I like it. IRL and in-game. Hate it. With a passion. I do team games, because they are fun and all, but the more I feel like I can personally take care of every situation that comes up and the less I am forced to rely on other people the happier I am.

No matter how cool/skilled/coordinated they are, at the end of the day you can not rely on other people in my experience. At all. Even a little bit. Also failing to achieve something because somebody else kittened up is absolutely frustrating beyond all kitten. As long as I can blame the loss on my personal shortcomings the calmer I remain and can focus on improving.

Problem is, this game will turn into macro wars if it is not changed to some degree.

Opening your backpack is not a big deal, having a universal build for weapon sets is also not a big deal, pressing H and changing traits/utilities is not a big deal, but when people start using macro’s for it, i.e g15 (other keyboards are available) and external programs this becomes the issue. This also gives people a distinct advantage over those who don’t use macros (i.e those people staying LAN legal).

Macros will not be allowed at major tournaments, especially LAN types. So if GW2 goes viral esports wise, which we expect it to, people won’t be able to use external programs (macro specific programs) and keyboards at these tournaments.

I’m just saying, give it like 3 months and people will be using macros religiously, and it’s not want anet want. It’s not what we all want to do, but the best/most efficient players will have macros. Macros from a G15 keyboard are not illegal from what I understand when it comes to the actual game’s perspective (unless used for botting, it’s a touchy subject), but they will be completely illegal at LANS.

My cure to the suggestion:

Make it so you can change utilities, weapons and traits at spawn points. Meaning if you go out and die at point X, you can put on your soldiers amulet, weapon swap, more condition cleansers for the next fight whatever it may be, not giving yourself complete flexibility 24/7 but only when you die.

Braxxus.2904:

I dunno. I guess I just won’t understand how taking choices and variables away adds to tactical teamplay decisions.

All I see out of it is “Crap, my build is completely countered by this team which I had no way of knowing pre-game. Guess I’ll just take it up the pooper for 5-10 mins and eat the loss”.

Maybe it’s because I don’t have a team that is on as much as I am so once we get our matches in, I am solo queuing until the next time. Often hours and hours between days of solo queuing tourneys. For me, being completely stuck in a single weapon choice for 100% of the match (I don’t really ever swap amulets or traits much tbh, but it’s nice that it’s an option) would lead me to play many classes less. In fact it’d probably lead me to cease playing any class that couldn’t maintain consistant team support and 1v1 capability at all times without changing a single thing ever.

So my mesmer. And…. maybe my engineer or elementalist. But chances are just my mesmer.

Also unlike a good many players I’m sure, the more I’m not personally in control of the outcome of any given situation the less I like it. IRL and in-game. Hate it. With a passion. I do team games, because they are fun and all, but the more I feel like I can personally take care of every situation that comes up and the less I am forced to rely on other people the happier I am.

No matter how cool/skilled/coordinated they are, at the end of the day you can not rely on other people in my experience. At all. Even a little bit. Also failing to achieve something because somebody else kittened up is absolutely frustrating beyond all kitten. As long as I can blame the loss on my personal shortcomings the calmer I remain and can focus on improving.

first of all when you are running balanced build you will never get completely countered

now to the point – we are not talking casual play here, we are talking top level play where everyone is pretty much same skillwise and outcome is decided by smalest advatages … if it stays as it is it will become Swapwars

player A playing scissors completely decimate player B playing paper, so player B switch to rock to destroy player A, so player A switch to paper … this exactly takes out the skill because it allow players to play gimmicks instead of balanced builds … it will shift from how well you can play your build to how well you can swap

@Braxxus
I do think that your perspective as a heavy solo-queing player effects your view of this and that is totally understandable!

When you are running with randoms you feel and notice the heavy burden of “build wars” and “hard counters” a lot more then you do in a organized team setting. No one wants to be stuck match after match, full game after full game, with limited options because you happen to spawn in a map vs. just the classes/builds you are ill equipped to handle. And really no build can or should be able to handle all eventualities (that would be OP and unbalanced).

But the discussion here is for tPvP and maybe even should be extended to paid tPvP when they arrive as this is supposed to be the “competitive” mode of GW2. In that setting also taking a fun/practical observer mode into account focus should IMHO be moved to the teams ability to pre-plan their setup to be versatile enough to win during all circumstances.

In a team you should not have to be able to counter everything solo, but the team should be smart enough to adjust their strategy (everyone should really start to use strategy and tactics in context more :P ) to handle any shortcomings by switching players, positions and goals around. And bring enough tools as a team to be able to do this.

That is what Aragiel means I think when he talks about moving focus to tactical team decisions instead of individual adjusting on-the-fly decision and knowledge. It is not about making the game less complex, it’s about switching around what skill-sets are needed to be successful.

I can also understand your views on personal vs. team performance and you feelings towards being self-sufficient. I just think (and want to personally) that GW2 is supposed to be a team game. The changes discussed here is in that light and as Aragiel has displayed a change like this could lead to more interesting team-interaction. The team is supposed to be able to handle everything, not you individually. Team that can plan and prepare for this should in that case be promoted for this.

Hsulf.9370:

My cure to the suggestion:

Make it so you can change utilities, weapons and traits at spawn points. Meaning if you go out and die at point X, you can put on your soldiers amulet, weapon swap, more condition cleansers for the next fight whatever it may be, not giving yourself complete flexibility 24/7 but only when you die.

Might as well make it so that you can’t use abilities in the spawn points, to prevent getting swiftness and swapping to your normal weapon. Would also remove the chore of having to combofield stack all possible buffs in the spawn point at the same time. I’d be totally fine with that.

As an addendum:

Of course this whole discussion is based in Anets ability to make a game balanced enough that there is at any time several viable balanced builds available that have an equal change of winning in the hands of equally skill players so that the outcome of the match comes down to perfection in execution and/or superiority in strategy/tactics.

Aka, winning by mind-games, knowing you opponent and having that edge of more focus right when it matters.

After reading this thread in full again I’m all for locking everything down as it seams like the best solution. At first I was open for recognizing the skill-set of on-the-fly recognition and adaptation . I also saw this as a countermeasure to “buildwars” that some games suffer from.

I no longer believe it would work like that. Either the game has a strong rock-paper-scissor design where builss (solo or team) “hard”-counter each-other or it doesn’t. Allowing build changes mid game will not change this. It will just create an environment where top teams need to change their build constantly.

Imagine if you could resell all items in LoL without any loss of gold. The game would degrade to a to a constant circle of item counter-building.

As many others here I don’t see that as “fun” gameplay. If it was supposed to be in the game as a skill-set i needed to refine, it should have a much better support by the interface. Like loading build/gear profiles etc. etc. I don’t think that anyone (at least not many) in GW1 thought that running with your inventory open and switching shields around as a monk depending on who where hitting you was a fun concept, but you needed to do it as it gave a small edge that matter in high competition.

DrInfy.9047:

Might as well make it so that you can’t use abilities in the spawn points, to prevent getting swiftness and swapping to your normal weapon. Would also remove the chore of having to combofield stack all possible buffs in the spawn point at the same time. I’d be totally fine with that.

Yep 100%.

At the moment on my ele I’m using dagger fire field 4, sceptor fire 3 blast for group might (open inventory),staff air 5 electric field (open inventory) dagger earth 4 blast for swiftness buff all in about 6 seconds of the final countdown (now open inventory to reapply staff and begin match…).

That’s 4 spells and 3 weapon changes.

If I could cut this crap out to stop feeling like I had to be “optimal” I would be grateful :P Jungling fields at spawn is sillyness anyway and doesn’t make for decent balance.

Add no spells at spawn, definitely.

@Luxiom.8279

you got my point. Im glad more people see it as i do.

If you are skilled and know enough about the classes you’re fighting to find a suitable counter to it in your weapon sets/ trait skills mid match I think you should be able to adjust to fix it. However I don’t think you should be allowed to change trait “lines” mid match. Once you’ve picked your 30/30/10/0/0 it should be set in stone until you’re back in the mists.

If you have a weapon in your pack that would be better to use than a sub optimal one as long as you’re out of combat it should be fair game.

Yeah that’s another thing that bothers me. Your build should be a commitment once the game starts, to encourage people to run balanced, adaptable builds. Otherwise you can just go ‘oh gimmick 1 didn’t work, but gimmick 2 counters them hard’.

Agreed here, I think the best solution would be to allow players to alter their weapons in the preparation phase of a game but remove that ability as soon as the game properly starts.

I would also suggest players be totally unable to switch classes during a tournament, even in the preparation stages of matches; you should be making a good, well rounded team for the entire thing, not re-rolling each match to suit the map and team you are against.

Interesting debate.
“All I see out of it is “Crap, my build is completely countered by this team which I had no way of knowing pre-game. Guess I’ll just take it up the pooper for 5-10 mins and eat the loss”.”
First thing I thought when I read this was: well, this is classic GW1, so why not continue the trend.

Anywho, I too think swapping builds midmatch needs some serious restrictions, so that the game doesn’t revolve around macro’s / gear micro management. That’d be bad imo. I guess the only true solution is to forbid any kind of build swapping, yet not feeling the downside due to excellent balancing by Anet. Probably an impossible scenario ;p

Dariroch.6482:

If you are skilled and know enough about the classes you’re fighting to find a suitable counter to it in your weapon sets/ trait skills mid match I think you should be able to adjust to fix it.

There’s nothing skillful in being able to swap weapons, even a monkey could be trained to do it. At the moment no one probably knows the correct choices in every situation, but if we think one year forward, every decent player is going to be swapping weapons and amulets like hell, which isn’t going to be much fun for anyone.

Here’s some more examples for swapping:
Guardian swaps staff in and blocks a pathway to capture point for 5 seconds and swaps back to his main weapon before going into combat.

Ranger gives 15s fury (+swiftness +might) to his with warhorn before swapping to his normal weaponset just before combat.

A lot of classes have a trait with 90s cd that does something when your character gets disabled, Shared Anquish for ranger(III, wilderness survival) as an example that prevents a single disable from hitting you. After you have used that cooldown, just swap another trait in until it comes back up.

Superior runes of Grove have 180s cd in (6) ability to root someone hitting you. Swap in another armor set with different runes after first fight!

Your super tanky guardian just lost a point to another super tanky guardian? Swap in greatsword and Berserker amulet and go kick his butt with a friend. After you get the point, swap in hammer, mace and soldier neck and you are again the tankiest thing the game has ever seen.

See a necromancer coming your way? Swap utilities (and possibly traits if possible) for condition removal and take knight’s amulet.

Macro Wars 2?

DrInfy.9047:

Macro Wars 2?

Yep, I mean technically you could have a macro for almost every scenario

As an ele it’d be

Roamer Macro = Bezerker Amulet + divinity rune set
Point Holder Macro = soldier amulet staff + dywana rune set
Support Macro = Cleric amulet + staff + dwyanna rune set
Bunker Conditon Macro = Shamans Amulet + s/d or s/f + nightmare armour set
Bunker Macro v2 = Soldiers + s/d or s/f + svanir armour set (for freezing lols).

So that’s 5 macros for 3 different weapon sets and 4 armour sets with different runes. Not to mention I could carry extra weapons depending if I want to freeze on attunement change, or heal, or extra bleeds on crit.

And all of this can be achieved succesfully with the same traits ^^

Really hope a dev is reading this as it’s pretty important stuff for the future of gw2 pvp.

All I see out of it is “Crap, my build is completely countered by this team which I had no way of knowing pre-game. Guess I’ll just take it up the pooper for 5-10 mins and eat the loss”.

This is baed. This is called build wars, where an auto win build auto stomped you and you can’t do anything about it. it’s not skilled and competitive pvp. Even basketball players can sub their players or adjust their plays. This is like saying “We’re facing the Lakers and i want my 5 players to play all through out the 4 quarters.”

This is Old Guild Wars, which sucked. Guild Wars 2 having new mechanics, should allow these adjustments.

Oh please, this is hardly an issue. The biggest issue at the moment is people changing their ENTIRE profession during a tournament match. The amount of games I’ve played where, when we are winning, the opposing teams players suddenly dissapear (one or two of them) only to re-enter the match as an entirely new profession is staggering.

Only yesterday the opposing team changed from a Mesmer and Thief, to bring into play a Guardian and Necromancer.

alcopaul.2156:

All I see out of it is “Crap, my build is completely countered by this team which I had no way of knowing pre-game. Guess I’ll just take it up the pooper for 5-10 mins and eat the loss”.

This is baed. This is called build wars, where an auto win build auto stomped you and you can’t do anything about it. it’s not skilled and competitive pvp. Even basketball players can sub their players or adjust their plays. This is like saying “We’re facing the Lakers and i want these 5 players to play all through out the 4 quarters.”

This is Old Guild Wars, which sucked. Guild Wars 2 having new mechanics, should allow these adjustments.

So, let’s say nothing is changed. Let’s say the highest end tPvP matches, which will be broadcast over the internet for hundreds of thousands of people to watch, are filled with constant weapon/skill switches.

Does that sound like a fun game to watch?

GW 1 and 2 make this awesome design decision to only allow you to choose a few skills to work with. You have to carefully select your skills, to make sure you cover the things you need too based on your team composition. But, since nothing has changed, these high end teams are constantly changing their skills. This design intention has now been circumvented, since players will just swap their skills on the fly and have access to all of them.

Does that sound like something casual players will be able to follow on a youtube video?

Your argument seems to be “the balance will always be awful, so players need to be able to do this to get around that fact”. Is that correct?

You’re not getting my argument. I just don’t want Guild Wars 2 to be mirror matches of a build that underwent a biased Darwinian process, being the build that is the most versatile and the most “balanced”. Guild Wars was like that and other builds that had chances to overcome the balanced build were destructively nerfed.

Being able to change mid game will offer additional variety of tactics and decision making to players. Multiple build configurations will be used to overcome the enemy, which is not prohibited to do so.

Hsulf.9370:

Really hope a dev is reading this as it’s pretty important stuff for the future of gw2 pvp.

i will be here with you till some of Devs will read it as i share same opinion

alcopaul.2156:

You’re not getting my argument. I just don’t want Guild Wars 2 to be mirror matches of a build that underwent a Darwinian process, being the build that is the most versatile and the most “balanced”. Guild Wars was like that and other builds that had chances to overcome the balanced build were destructively nerfed.

Being able to change mid game will offer additional variety of tactics and decision making to players. Multiple build configurations will be used to overcome the enemy, which is not prohibited to do so.

I understand that this is a thing you would like to avoid. But I no longer think allowing swapping of X in-match is the solution.

At first I was open for recognizing the skill-set of on-the-fly recognition and adaptation. I also saw this as a countermeasure to “buildwars” that some games suffer from.

I no longer believe it would work like that. Either the game has a strong rock-paper-scissor design where builss (solo or team) “hard”-counter each-other or it doesn’t. Same with the game evolving into a one-build meta.

Allowing build changes mid game will not change this. It will just create an environment where top teams need to change their build constantly.

Imagine if you could resell all items in LoL without any loss of gold. The game would degrade to a to a constant circle of item counter-building.

In theory, I’m not discuring the idea of in-match adaptation as a countermeasure to “buildwars” or as deterrent to “one build rules them all”. But if it should be used, it has to be severely limited in some way and a core design principle to avoid the problem of a constant build change circel-jekr countering.

Aragiel.6132:

Hsulf.9370:

Really hope a dev is reading this as it’s pretty important stuff for the future of gw2 pvp.

i will be here with you till some of Devs will read it as i share same opinion

Brofist-up! I’m here with you guys

I think a buff in the starting area that makes you invulnerable, unable to use any skills, but able to swap items/skills would be the best solution. That way you would have to carry the consequences of your build (bringing swiftness makes you stuck with the weapon that has it, etc), while still allowing mid game changes if your team gets completely countered.

Obviously mid game class changes need to be prevented also.

DrInfy.9047:

I think a buff in the starting area that makes you invulnerable, unable to use any skills, but able to swap items/skills would be the best solution. That way you would have to carry the consequences of your build (bringing swiftness makes you stuck with the weapon that has it, etc), while still allowing mid game changes if your team gets completely countered.

Obviously mid game class changes need to be prevented also.

I’m okay with this solution too. It’s a bit of a middle ground, and the price for changing your stuff in a match is a death – with all of the things that entails.

Perhaps though, it should be limited to X number of times per match.

I really don’t like things like this in games. Anytime I have to open my inventory and look through it during a PvP game, I die a little inside.

I’ll agree on this as well, on my necro i run staff/sceptor/focus but i keep my inventory open to swap the focus for warhorn for swiftness and then swap back. Same on my Ele, and same on my warr….

I’ve got it down now, but it does suck to have to worry about this type of crap while there is enough going on in tPvP.

And it sucks when you get stuck in combat with the OH weapon you dont want

@Sky

Team 1: Condition team
Team 2: Is unaware and doesn’t run condition removal.

First fight, Team 2 loses because they can’t handle the mass conditions.

So they swap to more condition removal mid game.

Team 1 knows this, swaps to burst.

Team 2 engages, loses because they’re no longer running against conditions.

You act like swapping can only be done on one side. You act like people are incapable of reading other players. There’s a whole mind game to be played by allowing gear/weapon swaps mid fight because both sides can do it. It makes players review their builds more carefully, deciding how flexible their trait lines are.

In this case, Team 1 outplayed Team 2 on multiple levels.

The only limiting factor should be class changing once the game has started. Because right now, if this is allowed, players with an SSD drive can instantly change up their team comp before the next res timer.

This sounds more like “I don’t want to do this, so no one else can,” issue than an actual balance issue to me. If a group is able to adapt to situations then it makes combat and the entire meta game more dynamic. Just because you don’t want to switch weapon or traits Shouldn’t mean others can’t. This isn’t creating some game Breaking imbalance. It may give some people a very small advantage, but nothing coordinated play can’t counter.

This sounds more like “I don’t want to do this, so no one else can,” issue than an actual balance issue to me.

From the opposite side, it sounds more like “I don’t want to make hard choices balancing my build for versatility, so let me swap on the fly so I can have everything, and make no sacrifices”.

Argument can be made both ways.

Arc.9374:

This sounds more like “I don’t want to do this, so no one else can,” issue than an actual balance issue to me.

From the opposite side, it sounds more like “I don’t want to make hard choices balancing my build for versatility, so let me swap on the fly so I can have everything, and make no sacrifices”.

Argument can be made both ways.

Right…but I supported my claim. Your just flipped words. There’s a difference. If that person wants to go through the trouble of changing builds he or she can. In any instance they still give something up, and face uncertainty every fight. Just because you switch builds doesn’t ensure a win. What ensures a win, in the end, is skill.

All in favour of locking this stuff out.

For me it is an issue of enjoyment. I hate fighting with the UI, I can just about be bothered with swapping in a speed boosting weapon out of the gate.

Before a round starts while the opposition comp. is on show seems like the time to be mucking around with your load out. What else is the wait time for except bios?

On the fly the whole process is annoying, unintuitive and gets in the way of actually enjoying the game. It feels like its not intended gameplay, unlike swapping out a utility skill which is simple and built into the UI. Macros could make it all simple but if it was intended why not have it built into the hotbar.

tOss.9024:

This sounds more like “I don’t want to do this, so no one else can,” issue than an actual balance issue to me. If a group is able to adapt to situations then it makes combat and the entire meta game more dynamic. Just because you don’t want to switch weapon or traits Shouldn’t mean others can’t. This isn’t creating some game Breaking imbalance. It may give some people a very small advantage, but nothing coordinated play can’t counter.

The hell it’s not. How’s is Char and Weapon swap not game breaking?
Just because you fill then need to min/max and micromanage doesnt mean it should be a requirment. And as of right now it is.

This crap is more about Rock/Paper/Scissors than it is about skill.

Why be good at one class, when you can be ok with 4 and just switch out when you get your kitten beat.

And if ANET and anyone else thinks this type of game play would work any any MLG circut they are dead wrong, it would be a complete joke.

I can here the commentators now
“ok, folks. Short commercial break while we wait for the team to switch to different chars because they werent prepared for the burst/condition/bunkers/roamers/CC/meatloaf…..o look now were back. Now it looks like they are changing the weapon sets around to better meet the situation, there should be some fighting real soon, ohh…the other team just got countered, here we go with another commercial break while that team switches to counter them.”

Weapon X.5163:

tOss.9024:

This sounds more like “I don’t want to do this, so no one else can,” issue than an actual balance issue to me. If a group is able to adapt to situations then it makes combat and the entire meta game more dynamic. Just because you don’t want to switch weapon or traits Shouldn’t mean others can’t. This isn’t creating some game Breaking imbalance. It may give some people a very small advantage, but nothing coordinated play can’t counter.

The hell it’s not. How’s is Char and Weapon swap not game breaking?
Just because you fill then need to min/max and micromanage doesnt mean it should be a requirment. And as of right now it is.

This crap is more about Rock/Paper/Scissors than it is about skill.

Why be good at one class, when you can be ok with 4 and just switch out when you get your kitten beat.

And if ANET and anyone else thinks this type of game play would work any any MLG circut they are dead wrong, it would be a complete joke.

I can here the commentators now
“ok, folks. Short commercial break while we wait for the team to switch to different chars because they werent prepared for the burst/condition/bunkers/roamers/CC/meatloaf…..o look now were back. Now it looks like they are changing the weapon sets around to better meet the situation, there should be some fighting real soon, ohh…the other team just got countered, here we go with another commercial break while that team switches to counter them.”

Explain to me how it is gamebreaking. I don’t see how locking people into builds would fix rock, paper, scissors type win/loses it would make it worse because you can’t adapt to the situation.

tOss.9024:

Explain to me how it is gamebreaking. I don’t see how locking people into builds would fix rock, paper, scissors type win/loses it would make it worse because you can’t adapt to the situation.

It does neither. That is one of the major points. The game either has problems with rock/paper/scissor builds or it doesn’t. But locking in builds or not does not change that. That is the main argument here.

The only thing you accomplished when allowing in-match switching of everything is that the optimal way to play is to be constantly switching to counters.

Either the game has a strong rock-paper-scissor design where builds (solo or team) “hard”-counter each-other or it doesn’t. Same with the game evolving into a one-build meta.

Imagine if you could resell all items in LoL without any loss of gold. The game would degrade to a to a constant circle of item counter-building.

It is not a balance question really. The game can be balanced with this in mind (personally I believe it is harder to do and currently isn’t, but that is beside the point) or just as well be balanced around locked builds. It is more a discussion about what is good for the game, what is “fun”, what is good from eSports perspective and finally, what kind of gameplay and skill-set should be the focus of the game.

If it’s intended, it needs to be less clunky to do. If it’s not intended, it needs to be removed.

Right now it falls into the catagory of “big chore but gives you an advantage.” That catagory shouldn’t exist.

One of the best threads in this forum in a long time. Good, healthy discussion.

Back during BWE’s, I always thought weapon and utility swapping mid-match was a temporary bug that would be fixed. As an Engi/Mesmer player, I am probably as used to weapon/utility swapping for out of combat buffs as anyone, but I have to admit it’s gotten absurd and will only get worse.

Now we have engis swapping utilities for a slick shoes speed and to drop med kits, then swapping out. We have mesmers changing certain traits out of combat to be able to use skills like blink twice instantly. Doing this feels clunky and non-intuitive. I recognize that I need to do them to keep up with the rest of the players, but I hate that this is what we have to do.

All swaps should be confined to within the spawn point, and that’s it. Weapons like Guardian Staff, Mesmer Focus, and various other utility skills will have more viability now than just being out of combat swaps.

If you don’t think it causes imbalance, then you shouldn’t have to switch unless you want to. Implying people have to switch to perform well also implies imbalance. If a team runs a group of balanced builds, then they can counter a team switching between two extremes.
Build swapping can be viable, but not necessary, and once the meta game shifts I think more will realize this.
As with any competitive game, there will be trends of “Must dos.” This is just another trend if the moment imo.
I wouldn’t doubt you will see non-switching, fast moving, teams that take advantage of the down time needed to run a switch game At some time should switching become extremely common.

Swapping to another weapon to use swiftness doesn’t take that long. It’s just clunky and awful to do but you feel like you have to to remain competitive.

I am not that upset about swap at the spawn zone. Swap outside the spawn zone shouldn’t be allowed.

So by that logic, most characters should be perfectly fine and viable without a second weapon swap because “you don’t need to swap weapons if you don’t want to”?

tOss.9024:

If you don’t think it causes imbalance, then you shouldn’t have to switch unless you want to. Implying people have to switch to perform well also implies imbalance. If a team runs a group of balanced builds, then they can counter a team switching between two extremes.
Build swapping can be viable, but not necessary, and once the meta game shifts I think more will realize this.
As with any competitive game, there will be trends of “Must dos.” This is just another trend if the moment imo.
I wouldn’t doubt you will see non-switching, fast moving, teams that take advantage of the down time needed to run a switch game At some time should switching become extremely common.

I think you have a misunderstanding. You can do these swaps on the fly, with little to no time lost. You can keep running, press I (or have inventory pre-opened in the corner), swap weapons, use buff skill, and swap back all without breaking the run. Same can be said for trait changing. No down time.

That being said, as anyone whose been plunked by a ranged weapon while their swapped weapon is equipped will tell you, there is a risk (albeit very small and rare) that you’ll get caught in in combat with the wrong weapon. But out of hundreds of games played, this has only happened to me a handful of times.