(edited by Dolmur.2573)
What actually changed with this Mesmer patch?
Prior to the patch, Mesmers also got stacks of Might if they had Illusionary Persona (30 points in Illusions) where they could be the 4th shatter. Since the patch, we now can only get 3 stacks of Might instead of 4 stacks.
It seems that this has been taken away. Why?
Fantasme Bloodwen [R.I.P. Mesmer] | Andi Runi [Warrior] | Bonedoggle [Necro] | Zooerasty [Ranger]
Angry Intent [AI] | Yak’s Bend |
Angry Intent [AI] | Yak’s Bend |
No, shattered strength never gave you might for illusionary persona, only for the clone shatters.
macroing allowed mesmers to shatter with 3 clones and actually do single clone damage.
all they did was revert the change entirely and add a gcd, they didnt change any coefficients. Adding the gcd makes it so that the bug doesnt work. It would still be there if there was no gcd.
basically that was the problem
Powerr
PZ
PZ
macroing allowed mesmers to shatter with 3 clones and actually do single clone damage.
all they did was revert the change entirely and add a gcd, they didnt change any coefficients. Adding the gcd makes it so that the bug doesnt work. It would still be there if there was no gcd.
basically that was the problem
That’s what I thought as well, but if that was the case then why did my damage go down so significantly? I never macrod or even hotkey lined before so the global cd does not affect me at all – I can essentially pretend it doesn’t exist and it doesn’t change my play. So, if the that was all they did to fix the bug, it shouldn’t have changed my damage nearly that much (see my math above).
I assume when you said revert the change, you’re talking about the change to shattered strength?
your damage went down because youre not shattering with 20 stacks of might.
yeah they reverted shattered strength to its previous state which virtually makes you miss out on the free might. Mesmers could get 24 stacks of might because of the greatsword bouncing attack. Now they get 6 base so i think 9 now. Which is 35 power per stack so 840 power previously now toned back to between 210-315 power.
So basically what was happening was that mesmers would have 2200 base power from their shatter builds, 2450 power and add a 24 stack of might makes it 3290 POWER. so ya
Not only that but with 3290 power their shatters were doing 1 clones worth of damage. With a zerker amulet you do roughly twice the damage on mind wrack than you would with 3. You could essentially get 4 4k+ shatters off and just be one shotting people left and right. I forget what the exact co-efficients are on the # of clones but yeah
Powerr
PZ
PZ
yeah they reverted shattered strength to its previous state which virtually makes you miss out on the free might. Mesmers could get 24 stacks of might because of the greatsword bouncing attack. Now they get 6 base so i think 9 now. Which is 35 power per stack so 840 power previously now toned back to between 210-315 power.
So basically what was happening was that mesmers would have 2200 base power from their shatter builds, 2450 power and add a 24 stack of might makes it 3290 POWER. so ya
Not only that but with 3290 power their shatters were doing 1 clones worth of damage. With a zerker amulet you do roughly twice the damage on mind wrack than you would with 3. You could essentially get 4 4k+ shatters off and just be one shotting people left and right. I forget what the exact co-efficients are on the # of clones but yeah
Everything you said there is true, but you’re talking in generalities. I’ll lay out some more math for ya here to show more clearly what I’m talking about.
Combo being used: Duelist, Leap, Dodge, Leap, Diversion, Mirror Images, Dodge, Mind Wrack.
So that’s a full diversion, followed by a full mind wrack about a third of a second later (need to give dodge a small amount of time to go off). Before the patch, each mind wrack was usually crit’ing for about 3.4k. Post-patch, the exact same combo, which is totally unaffected by the .25s cooldown, is having each mind wrack crit for about 2.2k. Pulling from the stuff I said in the first post, depending on how the might stack application is coded, the most might that combo would produce for the mind wracks pre-patch was 15. Now it’s 5. Difference of 10.
Each might stack gives 35 power.
35 * 10 = 350
The shatter build I used to test this gives a base power stat of 2229, so now let’s look at the bonus that extra 10 might provides:
350 / 2229 = .157 = 15.7%.
If all that’s changed is the might stacks, then I should be seeing 15.7% less damage on my shatters.
3400 * x = 2200 (x is the % of 3400 that 2200 is)
x = 2200 / 3400 = 0.647
1 – 0.647 = 0.353 = 35.3%
So, the DPS loss I’m seeing with numbers I was very careful when recording is over twice that which the math on might suggests I should be losing in the case (which I think is unlikely anyways) that might has the largest possible effect on the combo, i.e. where the mind wrack’s generated might all happen simultaneously and all apply to themselves and each other.
Again, my combo used for this test did not change at all in terms of order of execution or speed of execution, so the .25s cooldown is not a factor.
Where is this discrepancy coming from?
EDIT for terminology.
(edited by Dolmur.2573)
unbugged (exploited) shatters never hit heavy golems for 3.5k. They average 2.5-2.7k, so I do not know where you are pulling these numbers out of.
yeah they reverted shattered strength to its previous state which virtually makes you miss out on the free might. Mesmers could get 24 stacks of might because of the greatsword bouncing attack. Now they get 6 base so i think 9 now. Which is 35 power per stack so 840 power previously now toned back to between 210-315 power.
So basically what was happening was that mesmers would have 2200 base power from their shatter builds, 2450 power and add a 24 stack of might makes it 3290 POWER. so ya
Not only that but with 3290 power their shatters were doing 1 clones worth of damage. With a zerker amulet you do roughly twice the damage on mind wrack than you would with 3. You could essentially get 4 4k+ shatters off and just be one shotting people left and right. I forget what the exact co-efficients are on the # of clones but yeah
Everything you said there is true, but you’re talking in generalities. I’ll lay out some more math for ya here to show more clearly what I’m talking about.
Combo being used: Duelist, Leap, Dodge, Leap, Diversion, Mirror Images, Dodge, Mind Wrack.
So that’s a full diversion, followed by a full mind wrack about a third of a second later (need to give dodge a small amount of time to go off). Before the patch, each mind wrack was usually crit’ing for about 3.4k. Post-patch, the exact same combo, which is totally unaffected by the .25s cooldown, is having each mind wrack crit for about 2.2k. Pulling from the stuff I said in the first post, depending on how the might stack application is coded, the most might that combo would produce for the mind wracks pre-patch was 15. Now it’s 5. Difference of 10.
Each might stack gives 35 power (which is added towards total “damage”, as in the stat called damage).
35 * 10 = 350
Shatter build gives you a base damage stat of 3243, so now let’s look at the bonus that extra 10 might provides:
350 / 3243 = .108 = 10.8%.
If all that’s changed is the might stacks, then I should be seeing 10.8% less damage on my shatters.
3400 * x = 2200 (x is the % of 3400 that 2200 is)
x = 2200 / 3400 = 0.6471 – 0.647 = 0.353 = 35.3%
So, the DPS loss I’m seeing with numbers I was very careful when recording is over 3 times that which the math on might suggests I should be losing in the case (which I think is unlikely anyways) that might has the largest possible effect on the combo, i.e. where the mind wrack’s generated might all happen simultaneously and all apply to themselves and each other.
Again, my combo used for this test did not change at all in terms of order of execution or speed of execution, so the .25s cooldown is not a factor.
Where is this discrepancy coming from?
Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Notice that it’s weapon damage multiplied by power. Since might adds directly to power, you need to use base power, rather than displayed weapon damage + power, to calculate the damage difference.
35 (Number Might stacks)/base power = % damage difference.
Not much changed:
1. Instead of 0sec, you have 0.25 sec once you get 25 stacks of vulnerability on you (every 36 sec) to break daze (use stunbreak) and dodge away before you get blown up to 0% health (and if you dodge then scramble to survive rest of the crap they throw at you…some of it mentioned below).
2. Mesmers blow you up with about 6 stacks of might less than before.
What did not change:
Mesmer can still blow you up like that every 36sec.
Mesmer can still blow u up in ‘gentler’ manner (no 25 stacks of vuln) every 11 sec or so.
When mesmer blows u up it is aoe, so your whole team can go down if they try to focus him and they are not careful.
Mesmer still has 2sec invulnerability with 8 sec cooldown. (weapon) (also does very good dmg at the same time)
Mesmer still has 4 more sec of invul on about 42sec cooldown. (shatter)
Mesmer still has 2sec snare every 10 sec on average. (weapon)
Mesmer still has 2sec stun with 25sec cooldown (weapon).
Mesmer still has teleport on weapon every 10sec on average.
Mesmer has about 5K more health than thief (who they like to compare the burst to) in standard setup (or about 35% more).
Mesmer has the best group utilities and elite in the game.
…etc…too many perks to mention, ANET loves their whining children….it is like this class is ‘their big idea’, so they made it extra powerful or something.
Yeah what a genus invention, everyone else had a clue that giving class stealth, ton of cc, ton of teleports, insta aoe blowup 100%-0% is a very bad idea balance wise. But ANET wanted to do something novel, so mesmer was born.
Soko D Medo
(edited by Mufa.1326)
Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Notice that it’s weapon damage multiplied by power. Since might adds directly to power, you need to use base power, rather than displayed weapon damage + power, to calculate the damage difference.
35 (Number Might stacks)/base power = % damage difference.
Where are you seeing this? If you mouse-over the “Attack” stat in your hero screen (my bad for calling it “damage” earlier), you can see it’s weapon damage + power, not multiplied.
(edited by Dolmur.2573)
Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Notice that it’s weapon damage multiplied by power. Since might adds directly to power, you need to use base power, rather than displayed weapon damage + power, to calculate the damage difference.
35 (Number Might stacks)/base power = % damage difference.
Where are you seeing this? If you mouse-over the “Attack” stat in your hero screen (my bad for calling it “damage” earlier), you can see it’s weapon damage + power, not multiplied.
In-game tooltips and descriptions are….lacking. This is the damage formula posted on the wiki. I’ve tested it with my Elementalist so I can vouch for its accuracy.
Where are you seeing this? If you mouse-over the “Attack” stat in your hero screen (my bad for calling it “damage” earlier), you can see it’s weapon damage + power, not multiplied.
The attack displayed in the hero panel is a fantasy value with no basis on the reality of the game. Damage you do is weapon damage (which is a random number between the two values on your used weapon) multiplied by your power stat and the skill coefficient, and then divided by the target armor.
Ok, that’s fine. So to correct that math we do:
(35 * #mightStacks) / power =
(35 * 10) / 2229 =
0.157 = 15.7%
That still accounts for less than half the missing damage, and only in the case where might has the largest possible effect it might have depending on how Shattered Strength is implemented.
Like I said earlier, without using the macro and manually shattering 3 + 1 for the vulnerability stacks then 3 + 1 mindwrack prepatch, you would never hit 3.5k on heavy golems unless it bugged. 2.5-2.7k is in fact the correct damage for mindwrack, on heavy golems.
Like I said earlier, without using the macro and manually shattering 3 + 1 for the vulnerability stacks then 3 + 1 mindwrack prepatch, you would never hit 3.5k on heavy golems unless it bugged. 2.5-2.7k is in fact the correct damage for mindwrack, on heavy golems.
That’s exactly what I’m wondering about. I expect that the 3.4k hits I was seeing were somewhat due to the bug, but probably not to the same extent that the 5k hits some people were seeing were.
But according to dev posts they didn’t fix the underlying issue, all they did was add the .25s cooldown. As I said earlier, my combo didn’t cast 2 shatters within .25s either before or after the patch, so it should not have been affected by that change. If they truly didn’t fix the bug, then I should still see similarly bugged damage on that combo (minus a bit from SS revert, as calculated earlier).
So, either they’re lying about fixing the underlying issue (which would be really odd, as it’s a good thing), don’t realize they fixed it, partially fixed it without saying so but needed the .25 to complete the band-aid, or something else completely was changed. I’m wondering which of those things it was!
Are you factoring in multipliers like vulnerability from Rending Shatters, Illusion of Vulnerability and Staff/Sword Autoattack? It wouldn’t be surprising it the glitch accounted for most of the damage drop either. It’s hard to take this too seriously without a set of controlled data.
But in any case, I don’t think ANet would need to lie about ninja nerfs.
Not much changed:
1. Instead of 0sec, you have 0.25 sec once you get 25 stacks of vulnerability on you (every 36 sec) to break daze (use stunbreak) and dodge away before you get blown up to 0% health (and if you dodge then scramble to survive rest of the crap they throw at you…some of it mentioned below).
2. Mesmers blow you up with about 6 stacks of might less than before.What did not change:
Mesmer can still blow you up like that every 36sec.
Mesmer can still blow u up in ‘gentler’ manner (no 25 stacks of vuln) every 11 sec or so.
When mesmer blows u up it is aoe, so your whole team can go down if they try to focus him and they are not careful.
Mesmer still has 2sec invulnerability with 8 sec cooldown. (weapon) (also does very good dmg at the same time)
Mesmer still has 4 more sec of invul on about 42sec cooldown. (shatter)
Mesmer still has 2sec snare every 10 sec on average. (weapon)
Mesmer still has 2sec stun with 25sec cooldown (weapon).
Mesmer still has teleport on weapon every 10sec on average.
Mesmer has about 5K more health than thief (who they like to compare the burst to) in standard setup (or about 35% more).
Mesmer has the best group utilities and elite in the game.
…etc…too many perks to mention, ANET loves their whining children….it is like this class is ‘their big idea’, so they made it extra powerful or something.
Yeah what a genus invention, everyone else had a clue that giving class stealth, ton of cc, ton of teleports, insta aoe blowup 100%-0% is a very bad idea balance wise. But ANET wanted to do something novel, so mesmer was born.
Try harder. The ffective health given by stealth stacking, the much better condition removal of dagger/pistol build thieves is way better than a measly 5k base hp difference.
And the mobility of a thief is miles better than the mesmer outside spvp.
Get a grip and reroll a mesmer if it’s soooooo much better than those thieves cluttering wvw.
Then try PvE and map completion with a class that has no passive speed boost signet and crappy access to swiftness.
Try harder. The ffective health given by stealth stacking, the much better condition removal of dagger/pistol build thieves is way better than a measly 5k base hp difference.
And the mobility of a thief is miles better than the mesmer outside spvp.
Get a grip and reroll a mesmer if it’s soooooo much better than those thieves cluttering wvw.
Then try PvE and map completion with a class that has no passive speed boost signet and crappy access to swiftness.
1. Who is talking PVE? You are on the wrong forum.
2. Who is talking WvW? You are on the wrong forum as well.
3. Who is talking d/p? People are comparing burst thief and burst mesmer. Burst thief does not get stealth stacking, nor condition removal in stealth, nor heal in stealth. If you get those things on thief you lose the burst. One of the problems IS that mesmer can glass-up and still be very survivable (and have great CC and have great team utilities/elite and burst being aoe and burst being on lower timer than thief’s). If thief glasses up for the burst comparable to mesmer’s he gets none of those things. d/p thief built right is dps-pressure, not glass cannon (no significant burst).
You are simply off topic on everything you said.
Soko D Medo
Yeah CnD spam is like they aret even invisible at all. Don’t forget the steal during it, or the balanced backstab damage following it, but yeah mesmers are the most op thing in the game that’s why you see more thieves than any other profession.
Try harder. The ffective health given by stealth stacking, the much better condition removal of dagger/pistol build thieves is way better than a measly 5k base hp difference.
And the mobility of a thief is miles better than the mesmer outside spvp.
Get a grip and reroll a mesmer if it’s soooooo much better than those thieves cluttering wvw.
Then try PvE and map completion with a class that has no passive speed boost signet and crappy access to swiftness.
1. Who is talking PVE? You are on the wrong forum.
2. Who is talking WvW? You are on the wrong forum as well.
3. Who is talking d/p? People are comparing burst thief and burst mesmer. Burst thief does not get stealth stacking, nor condition removal in stealth, nor heal in stealth. If you get those things on thief you lose the burst. One of the problems IS that mesmer can glass-up and still be very survivable (and have great CC and have great team utilities/elite and burst being aoe and burst being on lower timer than thief’s). If thief glasses up for the burst comparable to mesmer’s he gets none of those things. d/p thief built right is dps-pressure, not glass cannon (no significant burst).You are simply off topic on everything you said.
Um, you still get plenty of stealth plus shadowstep as a backstab build. And to say p/p doesn’t pack burst is kind of silly, while p/d may not have as much burst but relative to other classes (like, say, necro or ranger or engineer), it still does a kitten ton more frontloaded damage.
Mug alone is stupid burst.
Mesmer is not survivable in glass cannon— he’s got blurred frenzy and diversion, and that’s pretty much it. He can’t constantly heal and his ranged damage is not that reliable since Phantasm burst is easy to dodged compared to trick shot spam or pistol damage.
Mesmer sustained damage is also under all circumstances inferior to thief and warrior sustained. So once that shatter burst fails, the mesmer is at a worse position than a warrior or thief to wear something like a bunker down.
I think you confuse the group utility of portal and time warp for mesmer strength, since you can substitute his burst with other classes easily. It’s the portal that makes them mandatory, and all it needs to be fixed is a range limitation in spvp so you can’t port back to points. It could be a 1200 range limitation and then it’d be balanced out.
(edited by Zenith.7301)
Are you factoring in multipliers like vulnerability from Rending Shatters, Illusion of Vulnerability and Staff/Sword Autoattack? It wouldn’t be surprising it the glitch accounted for most of the damage drop either. It’s hard to take this too seriously without a set of controlled data.
But in any case, I don’t think ANet would need to lie about ninja nerfs.
By definition, no multiplier could affect the % damage change that is seen, since %s are themselves calculated as a multiplier.
For example,
say one damage formula is expressed by: dmg1 = (X + P) * A * B * C
now change one of those variables (for us, the might multiplier): dmg2 = (Y + P) * A * B * C
If we assume that A, B, and C all stay the same, which any multipliers would in my case because the execution of the combo I’m testing with is identical pre and post patch, and done hundreds of times in each case, then you can combine them into one “constant”.
Let A * B * C = D
dmg1 = (X + P) * D
dmg2 = (Y + P) * D
Now we’re trying to figure out the difference between dmg1 and dmg2, let’s call our result ‘L’.
L = dmg2 / dmg1
L = ((X + P) * D) / ((Y + P) * D) = (X + P) / (Y + P)
As you can see, D, which represent every modifier that was the same between pre and post-patch, can be completely removed from the equation when calculating a % result.
Although I certainly can’t prove to you that my damage results are hard data, I assure you that the numbers are right, and consistent between hundreds of identical tests.
Mufa/Zenith/etc please take your random bickering to one of the many Mesmer threads which were created for that purpose. It’s like you all read the title of the thread and not even the very first post in it.
I meant their presence. The combo was changed slightly so there’s a chance you’re missing some stacks of vulnerability.
I meant their presence. The combo was changed slightly so there’s a chance you’re missing some stacks of vulnerability.
The combo is completely identical.