Guild Wars 2

So as a mesmer main being hardcountered by thief I’d like to know what is the class that hardcounter thief the same way that thief hardcounter mesmer ?

Thanks

Any bunker class, specifically Guardian/DH. And it’s only power shatter Mesmer that is hardcountered by Thief, Condi shatter is on par with thief

Thief does not counter mesmer they counter our c;lones.

Sly.9518:

Any bunker class, specifically Guardian/DH. And it’s only power shatter Mesmer that is hardcountered by Thief, Condi shatter is on par with thief

Literally every necro build is hardcountered by thief. But it’s ok that you forgot because everyone forgets that necro exists.

Also modern bunker classes don’t hardcounter thief in conquest. Thief role dominance as the roamer/+1/decap is unhindered by bunkers. Bunkers certainly slow thieves down but they don’t shut thieves down.

The only time we had a real hardcounter to thieves was ole’ Power Revenant before the nerfs, because pre-nerf power rev was Thief 2.0

Thief won’t be countered as long as the roamer/decap is a required role for conquest.

I’ve heard thieves claim that it’s guardian, but thieves often choose to attack guardians and seen them do so with great success.

Crinn.7864:

Sly.9518:

Any bunker class, specifically Guardian/DH. And it’s only power shatter Mesmer that is hardcountered by Thief, Condi shatter is on par with thief

Literally every necro build is hardcountered by thief. But it’s ok that you forgot because everyone forgets that necro exists.

Also modern bunker classes don’t hardcounter thief in conquest. Thief role dominance as the roamer/+1/decap is unhindered by bunkers. Bunkers certainly slow thieves down but they don’t shut thieves down.

The only time we had a real hardcounter to thieves was ole’ Power Revenant before the nerfs, because pre-nerf power rev was Thief 2.0

Thief won’t be countered as long as the roamer/decap is a required role for conquest.

DH still hard counter Thief but good try and nice to see your Woe is necro is going strong lol, did I ever say Necro hardcountered thief or say Thief didn’t hard counter necro no no I did not I only specifically mentioned in regards to DH and Mesmer literally no one in this thread mentioned Necro…. bahahahaha.

Sly.9518:

DH still hard counter Thief but good try and nice to see your Woe is necro is going strong lol, did I ever say Necro hardcountered thief or say Thief didn’t hard counter necro no no I did not I only specifically mentioned in regards to DH and Mesmer literally no one in this thread mentioned Necro…. bahahahaha.

The implication is this comparison, which you appear to concur with in your previous post:

• Counter to thief (dragon hunter) has to build specifically.
  whereas:
• Counter to necro (any thief) doesn’t have to build specifically.
  and:
• Despite being hard counter to no other class (you state in your previous post), thief has no specific problems competing with any class.

Svarty.8019:

Sly.9518:

DH still hard counter Thief but good try and nice to see your Woe is necro is going strong lol, did I ever say Necro hardcountered thief or say Thief didn’t hard counter necro no no I did not I only specifically mentioned in regards to DH and Mesmer literally no one in this thread mentioned Necro…. bahahahaha.

The implication is this comparison, which you appear to concur with in your previous post:

• Counter to thief (dragon hunter) has to build specifically.
  whereas:
• Counter to necro (any thief) doesn’t have to build specifically.
  and:
• Despite being hard counter to no other class (you state in your previous post), thief has no specific problems competing with any class.

DH doesn’t have to build specifically for Hard countering Thief bahahah that’s gold that pure gold, and no not every Thief build hard counters Necro, Condis Thieves dont, Sword Dagger Thieves don’t and neither do Staff thieves lol on D/P does one build, bahahaha and again before from this post was specifically what hardcounters Thief not what hardcounters Mesmer, nor Necro and it’s not what A topic of what’s Thief hardcounters. Look at the topic title and be OP lol.

But go ahead the Woe is necro posts are pure gold trying to throw topics off topic with them.

Again on topic DH hardcounters Thief every build used Hard counters Thief, other bunker builds counter Thief effectively as well.

Sly.9518:

DH still hard counter Thief but good try and nice to see your Woe is necro is going strong lol, did I ever say Necro hardcountered thief or say Thief didn’t hard counter necro no no I did not I only specifically mentioned in regards to DH and Mesmer literally no one in this thread mentioned Necro…. bahahahaha.

1 DH doesn’t stop a thief from doing their job. It’s a hindrance yes, but it’s not going to shut the thief down.
Obviously a team of all DH and engi will stop a thief, but that’s a unrealistic situation, and that all DH team will get dunked on by the other 4 guys on the thieves team. (assuming those 4 are running a balanced comp)

When I say hardcounter I’m thinking of power rev vs condi Mesmer, where the presence of 1 condi Mesmer completely deletes that power rev off the face of the map.

I ever say Necro hardcountered thief or say Thief didn’t hard counter necro no no

You said that only power Mesmer is countered by thief. “Only” implies exclusivity, as in no other build in the game other than power Mesmer is countered by thief.

The necro vs thief thing irks me because Arenanet keeps getting rid of necros ability to coexist with thieves.
We used to be able to coexist with thieves, because used to be conquest involved large teamfights with small fights on the offnode. In those days a necro could coexist with thieves because the necro could “hide” in the teamfight. However arenanet has spent the last year pushing the game away from teamfights towards rolling 1v1s and 2v2s, thus deprecating necro to the extreme while making thieves stronger and stronger.

Crinn.7864:

Sly.9518:

DH still hard counter Thief but good try and nice to see your Woe is necro is going strong lol, did I ever say Necro hardcountered thief or say Thief didn’t hard counter necro no no I did not I only specifically mentioned in regards to DH and Mesmer literally no one in this thread mentioned Necro…. bahahahaha.

1 DH doesn’t stop a thief from doing their job. It’s a hindrance yes, but it’s not going to shut the thief down.
Obviously a team of all DH and engi will stop a thief, but that’s a unrealistic situation, and that all DH team will get dunked on by the other 4 guys on the thieves team. (assuming those 4 are running a balanced comp)

When I say hardcounter I’m thinking of power rev vs condi Mesmer, where the presence of 1 condi Mesmer completely deletes that power rev off the face of the map.

I ever say Necro hardcountered thief or say Thief didn’t hard counter necro no no

You said that only power Mesmer is countered by thief. “Only” implies exclusivity, as in no other build in the game other than power Mesmer is countered by thief.

The necro vs thief thing irks me because Arenanet keeps getting rid of necros ability to coexist with thieves.
We used to be able to coexist with thieves, because used to be conquest involved large teamfights with small fights on the offnode. In those days a necro could coexist with thieves because the necro could “hide” in the teamfight. However arenanet has spent the last year pushing the game away from teamfights towards rolling 1v1s and 2v2s, thus deprecating necro to the extreme while making thieves stronger and stronger.

No I stated only as in only Power Mesmer out of the OPs concern in regard to Thief hardcountering all of Mesmer, nothing more nothing less, since it doesn’t pertain to the thread if Thief Hard counters one other class, I was making my answer only in the full context of this thread which is what Hard counters a thief which is DH.

they can pressure a node so a Thief cannot deal with it inside its main Roles of Decap, if a DH is bunkering a node that needs recapped the Thief is hard countered since the DH has all the tools to pressure the thief away completely, it has been that way for a very very long time. If a thie can’t recap due to a bunker the thief is countered, not a hard concept, if a thief tries to fight the bunker he risks getting +1ed since it will take too long to kill the bunkering DH.

You can work around DH. Thief rotates faster than DH which means that the DH can’t pick the fight. The DH can only aggress the thief when the thief lets the DH.

Also a thief has no issue getting a +1 on DH. DH’s low base HP makes them vulnerable to spikes, and thieves are masters of the spike. Thieves just can’t 1v1 DH because it takes too long.

Crinn.7864:

You can work around DH. Thief rotates faster than DH which means that the DH can’t pick the fight. The DH can only aggress the thief when the thief lets the DH.

Also a thief has no issue getting a +1 on DH. DH’s low base HP makes them vulnerable to spikes, and thieves are masters of the spike. Thieves just can’t 1v1 DH because it takes too long.

Again if a DH decides to bunker a point which is all to prevalent in today’s ranked world then the Thief can’t outrotate that one DH, and is completely shutout from it and again the longer the fight goes the more likely that’s DH will get +1ed. Or do you not know what a bunker does….

this is no longer the game of 5v5 actual teams That communicate and rotate at best if you have one other person with you you can have some semblance of Rotation I know this too be true all the way through platinum.

So again any bunker Hard counters a thief since they can’t Decap the point (In a reasonable amount of time) which is their main role. DH just has all the Tools to do it better than any other class, point pressure AoE, lots of Sustain, lots of damage mitigation, contro, and now baked in reveal….

If a dh (or anything else) just sits on a point, his team has to fight 4vs5, which means easy +1 and kills for the thief. That’s the best way to lose a game and the opposite of countering a thief.

The best counter to thief is another thief.

Anyone who has good reaction time and understanding of the thief class can do well against thief.

Anyone who under estimates thief will be destroyed, however.

Best thief counter is another thief who is used to playing as fast as the other thief.

In most games, a dh is a hard counter to thf. A thf has a hard time landing on a target if a dh is showering the area with aoe. Especially test of faith which really nails thf hard. At the highest levels of play, the only thing that really counters a thf is another thf, since a dh can’t keep up.

in 1 v 1 DH>>Thief

In roaming decap, there is nothing that beats another thief. As thief beats the other classes that can roam rev, mesmer. U can put a scrapper to roam as well but it’s rezzing abilities is needed in teamfights..

Dragonhunters were pretty much a killer of weaker players before the recent nerfs landed, and afterwards they were no longer regarded as being part of the meta by the metabattle guys. A DH can stomp a poor thief pretty easily, but most professions (including reapers) can stomp a bad thief. A good thief won’t get countered by a DH, and in higher-skill matches, the DH may also be a handicap elsewhere.

Things that hardcounter a thief (this is assuming ppl knowing how to use the builds):

1.) DH Meta Trapper
2.) Most condi builds (Condi Chrono, Condi reaper, even Burn Guard can apply enough constant burn, and P/P engi…things with strong condi pressure)
3.) Anything with strong AoE (where facetanking isnt usually an option for teef)
4.) Highly Mobile Zerker
5.) DPS PewPew / Staff Druids (Range and those channeled attacks can be easily fatal)

Svarty.8019:

I’ve heard thieves claim that it’s guardian, but thieves often choose to attack guardians and seen them do so with great success.

Dh do have that reveal added on their f2.

Caedmon.6798:

Svarty.8019:

I’ve heard thieves claim that it’s guardian, but thieves often choose to attack guardians and seen them do so with great success.

Dh do have that reveal added on their f2.

Some of us thieves are…shall we say…kitteny? The only way to learn to beat DH is by fighting them right?

I try…sometimes I win, sometimes I lose but technically DH should be able to beat a teef on equal skill level.

Caedmon.6798:

Svarty.8019:

I’ve heard thieves claim that it’s guardian, but thieves often choose to attack guardians and seen them do so with great success.

Dh do have that reveal added on their f2.

f1, but yes, they do have that, if they can land it. I should try it with hammer 5 sometime, but I believe thief can just ignore all CC, right?

The pull on f1 works even if you dodge and thf has no reliable source of stability.

Kuya.6495:

The pull on f1 works even if you dodge and thf has no reliable source of stability.

I think they were mainly referring to the ¾s cast time added to the initial F1 which makes spear of justice much harder to land now than when it was ¼s.

Nothing really "hard"counters it since thief chooses the fight. I’d say DH soft counters it in terms of combat but due to its mobility a good thief still have greater control on the map.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Things that hardcounter a thief (this is assuming ppl knowing how to use the builds):

1.) DH Meta Trapper
2.) Most condi builds (Condi Chrono, Condi reaper, even Burn Guard can apply enough constant burn, and P/P engi…things with strong condi pressure)
3.) Anything with strong AoE (where facetanking isnt usually an option for teef)
4.) Highly Mobile Zerker
5.) DPS PewPew / Staff Druids (Range and those channeled attacks can be easily fatal)

Condi reaper, pp engi and "highly mobile " zerker get hardcountered by the (dp) thief…not the other way around.

Locuz.2651:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Things that hardcounter a thief (this is assuming ppl knowing how to use the builds):

1.) DH Meta Trapper
2.) Most condi builds (Condi Chrono, Condi reaper, even Burn Guard can apply enough constant burn, and P/P engi…things with strong condi pressure)
3.) Anything with strong AoE (where facetanking isnt usually an option for teef)
4.) Highly Mobile Zerker
5.) DPS PewPew / Staff Druids (Range and those channeled attacks can be easily fatal)

Condi reaper, pp engi and "highly mobile " zerker get hardcountered by the (dp) thief…not the other way around.

Condi reaper can down the DD in 3 ticks of the mass bleed they do and can sustain it and they are usually tanky. While its true that Necros/Reapers are typically easy targets for reapers, one quick condi burst can make it all crash down on the DD (where it takes a bit more burst from the DD to do the same).

p/p engi…my 2nd main class in PvP/WvW…ive destroyed MANY daredevils with it. It can put on more condis than a DD can typically cleanse w/o wasting his shadowstep and siggy, with being a bit tanky and heavy condi sustain, DD’s are ez pz when im on mine. Mobile DPS zerker can typically force all dodges and endurance out of a DD due to their innate amount of HP. GS + x/S make them fairly mobile and with even skill they can take out more than just a DD alone. (now with the recent balance with Headbutt and such, I havent fought a good berzerker since so I cannot elaborate any more on this class/build)

The last time that necro countered thief was when dhuumfire could be triggered by all attacks. Ever since, each and every meta thief (power) build has been a hard or softcounter to necro/reaper in pvp. The removal of geo and hydromancy sigils made this match up even more lopsided as reaper has lost its only reliable (instant) source of damage.
Same goes for zerk warrior, it was countered by thief pre-patch and should now be at a bigger disadvantage.
Engi on the other hand used to be a counter to thief (only if the thief allows it and chooses to fight), the removal if geomany hurts them as well but id guess they are still favored, not sure though.

i think there are 2 questions

1. in 1v1 is there any class who can counter a thief
2. regarding role scenarios is there any class who can counter thief role

1. thief atm can counter all class if you let him fight long time in 1v1. he might not decap the point or contest it but can win almost in any 1v1 scenario. even guard or necro. how you counter it its easy send your roamer to +1 and the thief will disengage. if you let the thief to have fun, he will!

2. to counter thief rotation is only by another roamer like mesmer portal but smart thief can juke you with stealth and decap anyway. or with rev but still thief can move faster, or bunker who sit on point like ranger who moves between close to mid and have good eyes on the thief movement.

a good thief can carry his team with decap free point and force outnumbering situtation

Thief is very strong atm, maybe stronger then ever, that’s partially because some of the other profs got nerfed.
Before last patch guard probably was the best thief counter, now guard is just meh.

Sly.9518:

Crinn.7864:

You can work around DH. Thief rotates faster than DH which means that the DH can’t pick the fight. The DH can only aggress the thief when the thief lets the DH.

Also a thief has no issue getting a +1 on DH. DH’s low base HP makes them vulnerable to spikes, and thieves are masters of the spike. Thieves just can’t 1v1 DH because it takes too long.

Again if a DH decides to bunker a point which is all to prevalent in today’s ranked world then the Thief can’t outrotate that one DH, and is completely shutout from it and again the longer the fight goes the more likely that’s DH will get +1ed. Or do you not know what a bunker does….

this is no longer the game of 5v5 actual teams That communicate and rotate at best if you have one other person with you you can have some semblance of Rotation I know this too be true all the way through platinum.

If the guard is bunking a point, then the thief has a +1 opportunity on the other points. If the guard leaves the point in order to equalize the +1 then the thief has a decap opportunity.

That’s why thieves are so strong. At any given time in a match the thief either has a decap opportunity or a +1 opportunity.

They don’t really have any hard counters, they are rampant right now.

It’s sad you can see the hard anet fail by making the pvp game mode require mobility to hold little circles then making one class that has triple the map crossing speed then any other class. lol anet if only you had a real pvp mode like gw1 to play some pvp on.

Still to this day courtyard was the best map and it ended the need for a crossing map teef.

thief is so bad wtf needs buff plz

bluri.2653:

thief is so bad wtf needs buff plz

Put the wooden spoon away Sind!

Most DH builds and Scrappers. If they’re in a fight, any Thief with half a brain will go somewhere else. Other than that, we can +1 almost anything if we play our cards right.
That said, Thief is still terrible at 1v1’s against anything other than another Thief and Revs. We can also take some fights against Necro’s and Warriors, but they take way too much time to actually be worth it.
Aside of all that, a good Thief will pick his fights very carefully and shouldn’t pretty much ever take any 1v1’s because it’s simply not what we’re good at and what we should be doing.

Vornollo.5182:

We can also take some fights against Necro’s and Warriors, but they take way too much time to actually be worth it.

this is the worse and more recurrent argument that thieves uses: fights againts x last so long
when talking about balance or x class countering y class time is not a measure, the matter of it is the final outcome and the odds of it
in thief users view seems that if they can instagang other class that clas is a harcounter to them when in most cases that class only had capability of resist thieves atemps to instakill them and recover faster when thieves try to reset the fight, but not any capability of chasing down the thief if they run out of the combat, a hard counter is that one that can make the thieve invisible and meaningless in the match and there is only one , other thief(that also is soft-countered in some way cuz they only hunts the other thief having litle time to decap/+1(his main role))

megilandil.7506:

when talking about balance or x class countering y class time is not a measure, the matter of it is the final outcome and the odds of it

In the terms of conquest the time it takes to clear a node is very much a concern. However thieves also tend to ridiculously exaggerate the time it takes to do things.

Crinn.7864:

megilandil.7506:

when talking about balance or x class countering y class time is not a measure, the matter of it is the final outcome and the odds of it

In the terms of conquest the time it takes to clear a node is very much a concern. However thieves also tend to ridiculously exaggerate the time it takes to do things.

in term of game mode strategy yes, they could be in other place to take better profit of time etc etc, but not in terms of interclass balance, time is not a measure. this is estrategy not class balance
And class X will be equally a counter of Y if ever can win over class Y takes only few seconds or all the match time

Lol the notion of bunker on the damage fest that is pvp, is right down hilarious.

What counters the class that is almost perma impossible to hit and does massive damage? hmm let me think. O yeh. Nothing. They can escape any tough situations and should basically never die if played correctly.

So they:
1, Do the most spike damage
2, Are the hardest class to kill far
3, Have the mobility to get decaps and quickly get kills

Thief should either have much less damage or they should have considerable nerfs to their sustain. Doing massive damage, being unkillable and having the best mobility is not balance.

Thief is currently countered by a better Thief.

Just wait till we get the new expansion, and they become sniper, then they wont even have to engage in CC.

Apolo.5942:

Just wait till we get the new expansion, and they become sniper, then they wont even have to engage in CC.

Too bad they would lose Stealth High stealth access or High mobility and all their supah “OP Dodges”lol GG

Apolo.5942:

Just wait till we get the new expansion, and they become sniper, then they wont even have to engage in CC.

Currently ranged Thief is working marvels on WvW roaming. Even without a rifle the mix of stealth, ranged attacks from pistol and shortbow plus the amazing tools for disengage makes it lethal in most of 1 vs 1 vs most of classes.

Stealth is literaly broken, as happens in most of the games. Fortunately in PvP the control points and x vs x skirmishes still exist, so the impact of the stealth mechanics is softened.

As a thief, I’ll go with condi mes or a well played burn guardian. Definitely tough fight vs condi engi. Sustain ele’s can be very frustrating and waste a ton of time.

Sly.9518:

Apolo.5942:

Just wait till we get the new expansion, and they become sniper, then they wont even have to engage in CC.

Too bad they would lose Stealth High stealth access or High mobility and all their supah “OP Dodges”lol GG

And if the sniper sux , then we can go back in the HoT spec :PPP
I dont think they will dare to releases an underpowered class , and then procced nerf the most prevelant specs :PPP

DHs and guardians in general have been always hardcountering thieves. Surely, they can’t always follow them everywhere (although they do have plenty of mobility to prevent some decaps if they pay attention to map) but they don’t really have to. If enemy has 2 points that are being defended, thief will be forced into team fights – which is really unfavorable for them, especially if enemy team has DHs.

On Foefire i feel like druids counter thieves pretty well, all you need to do is to sit on the edge and spam your lazers. If thief attempts to decap your home, you can just RTL there – there will be no decap (not to mention thief will be probably close to dying due to pet doing stupid amount of damage and porting to the thief).

Generally regardless what class you play, the biggest counter to thief will be always team coordination and map awareness. I have seen plenty of teams that did not have thief win vs a team with a thief.

P.S. i think scrapper is also pretty good hardcounter to thieves, if they engage into a fight.

megilandil.7506:

Vornollo.5182:

We can also take some fights against Necro’s and Warriors, but they take way too much time to actually be worth it.

this is the worse and more recurrent argument that thieves uses: fights againts x last so long
when talking about balance or x class countering y class time is not a measure, the matter of it is the final outcome and the odds of it
in thief users view seems that if they can instagang other class that clas is a harcounter to them when in most cases that class only had capability of resist thieves atemps to instakill them and recover faster when thieves try to reset the fight, but not any capability of chasing down the thief if they run out of the combat, a hard counter is that one that can make the thieve invisible and meaningless in the match and there is only one , other thief(that also is soft-countered in some way cuz they only hunts the other thief having litle time to decap/+1(his main role))

“Some Fights” is rather key here. It requires us to have our CD’s ready to go (which often we don’t due to having to use Initiative, our Dodges -> Heal and sometimes even our Stunbreak/Condicleanse that is Shadowstep) [<QUICK EDIT: This also includes a situation where they have spent most of their CD’s… It’s both very circumstantial, especially the warrior matchup>].
You simply can not judge PvP on a 1v1 basis. PvP doesn’t work like that. If you got issues with an enemy thief, it’s an issue for your entire team not being able to simply hold 2 points.
Like has been said before, if you can hold onto 2 points the Thief gets forced into teamfights and (s)he’ll be as close to useless as one can be.

Really, what is the deal with people and judging a 5v5 gamemode based on 1v1’s..?
5v5, 1v1, see the difference?

At the maprotation there are only 2 classes that can check thief:
a other thief and ranger.
Mesmer can do it too but why waisting a portal for that, if you can controll the fights?

to counter a thief in 1v1:
thief

But thief got one thing that hardcounters him:

Teamfights, cause he is not very usefull at this, maybe finishing and ruppting some enermies but the teamdmg/ support is higher on teams without thiefes. So play at 2 points and force the teamfights, that outplay the thief completely as long your team is as good as the enermies team.

Oh and if the thief do a 1v1 instead to +1 (by decap or joining fights) he do crap, cause it needs too long time and the points ticking bether for enermie team (again just if we look same player-skills at both sides).

His first rolle at teams is to abuse the +1 situation, the second to create that and after that something else. So if you counter that you counter the thief ;D

Thats why Vornollo is right. But yea it´s a 5v5, if the one of your team do bad the thief will be the first punisher

Vornollo.5182:

megilandil.7506:

Vornollo.5182:

We can also take some fights against Necro’s and Warriors, but they take way too much time to actually be worth it.

this is the worse and more recurrent argument that thieves uses: fights againts x last so long
when talking about balance or x class countering y class time is not a measure, the matter of it is the final outcome and the odds of it
in thief users view seems that if they can instagang other class that clas is a harcounter to them when in most cases that class only had capability of resist thieves atemps to instakill them and recover faster when thieves try to reset the fight, but not any capability of chasing down the thief if they run out of the combat, a hard counter is that one that can make the thieve invisible and meaningless in the match and there is only one , other thief(that also is soft-countered in some way cuz they only hunts the other thief having litle time to decap/+1(his main role))

“Some Fights” is rather key here. It requires us to have our CD’s ready to go (which often we don’t due to having to use Initiative, our Dodges -> Heal and sometimes even our Stunbreak/Condicleanse that is Shadowstep) [<QUICK EDIT: This also includes a situation where they have spent most of their CD’s… It’s both very circumstantial, especially the warrior matchup>].
You simply can not judge PvP on a 1v1 basis. PvP doesn’t work like that. If you got issues with an enemy thief, it’s an issue for your entire team not being able to simply hold 2 points.
Like has been said before, if you can hold onto 2 points the Thief gets forced into teamfights and (s)he’ll be as close to useless as one can be.

Really, what is the deal with people and judging a 5v5 gamemode based on 1v1’s..?
5v5, 1v1, see the difference?

You misunderstand the complaint.

People get tilted at thieves complaining about fights being “too long” because some of us play classes that can’t even win equal fight regardless of duration.

To us thief complaints are like rich people complaining about their gold-plating toilet being dented