Guild Wars 2

What does the weapon swap CD accomplish in balance?

Take Warriors for example. Why is there a weapon swap cooldown for them? Would there be a significant change in balance if there were no weapon swap CD for Warriors? Would it be any worst than Engineers, who can freely swap between kits with no CD.

Elementalists need an attunement swap CD because they receive extremely powerful effects automatically upon swapping (auto burst heal + regen when going into water, protection from earth, etc). Obviously they need a CD for their swaps. What about other classes, though?

That’s one thing I wondered. Why have a cooldown to switch to moves that already have cooldowns. It does seem odd. I’m thinking maybe thief to blame because of no CDs and initiative instead, but it seems like they could fix that (maybe weapon swapping costs initiative or something). They already have internal CDs on sigils and things that grant buffs on weapon swap, so that wouldn’t be a problem.

Ya, I would love an answer on this. I goof around with a warrior, but I think a warrior should get 0 weapon swap CD (if not all classes).

because of the sigils that give you special boosts for weapon swap

Orangensaft.7139:

because of the sigils that give you special boosts for weapon swap

Those already have internal CDs, proven by engineers kit swapping.

Orangensaft.7139:

because of the sigils that give you special boosts for weapon swap

They have internal cooldowns of ~10-15 seconds built in.

i think thats one reason attunement eles are as strong as they are, they can use skills constantly where as other classes get 4 skills and then just auto attack while their 4 skills are on CD, or weapon swap getting 4 more but disabling the other s for 10 seconds.

ele can burn through 4 skills, burn through 4 more, burn through 4 more, burn through 4 more and then start over!

ah right… didnt think of that

it increases the weight of the decision to swap to a weapon. it introduces an element of skill. also it is something that can be observed by opposing players and they can gain information about what they can do in the next 10-ish seconds. this also ties in with the whole idea of having skills tied directly to weapons, so an experienced enemy can know what you are capable of depending on your equipped weapon and if he’s seen you swap recently or not.

Liewec.2896:

i think thats one reason attunement eles are as strong as they are, they can use skills constantly where as other classes get 4 skills and then just auto attack while their 4 skills are on CD, or weapon swap getting 4 more but disabling the other s for 10 seconds.

ele can burn through 4 skills, burn through 4 more, burn through 4 more, burn through 4 more and then start over!

Well, although they have many moves, they are all situational. You don’t want to swap and cast moves as if you were spamming a rotation, you still need to manage CDs and make sure your situational moves aren’t on CD as well as your attunement.

milo.6942:

it increases the weight of the decision to swap to a weapon. it introduces an element of skill. also it is something that can be observed by opposing players and they can gain information about what they can do in the next 10-ish seconds. this also ties in with the whole idea of having skills tied directly to weapons, so an experienced enemy can know what you are capable of depending on your equipped weapon and if he’s seen you swap recently or not.

A large majority of players in TPvP are asura. Tiny asura are nearly impossible to tell if they are holding a focus or dagger or sword. Now, if a giant norn swaps weapons, the entire map will know.

milo.6942:

it increases the weight of the decision to swap to a weapon. it introduces an element of skill. also it is something that can be observed by opposing players and they can gain information about what they can do in the next 10-ish seconds. this also ties in with the whole idea of having skills tied directly to weapons, so an experienced enemy can know what you are capable of depending on your equipped weapon and if he’s seen you swap recently or not.

I don’t think this incorporated skill. this game is about team play, and in a team fight you wouldn’t be paying attention to what weapon they are using, and if so, it doesn’t change much. i believe the element of skill should be implemented into the weapons you chose to use, and being able to switch from them at your will that will benefit you given your situation.

elementalists and warriors basically have this free range of weapon swapping, so why not other professions?

Liewec.2896:

i think thats one reason attunement eles are as strong as they are, they can use skills constantly where as other classes get 4 skills and then just auto attack while their 4 skills are on CD, or weapon swap getting 4 more but disabling the other s for 10 seconds.

ele can burn through 4 skills, burn through 4 more, burn through 4 more, burn through 4 more and then start over!

^^^^^^^^^ BOOOOOOOOOOOOOM A dev needs to read this. Seriously. How did you not notice this when making the game? I was on the ele forums a few days ago and they actually refer to other classes as AUTO ATTACK classes and say that’s why they play ele because everything else is boring.

Please make your game better. I’m the last man standing out of a group of 10 friends who bought this game. I hyped it the most so it would be too much to admit I was wrong and quit so I’m sticking it out. lol Don’t make me look stupid!

felivear.1536:

A large majority of players in TPvP are asura. Tiny asura are nearly impossible to tell if they are holding a focus or dagger or sword. Now, if a giant norn swaps weapons, the entire map will know.

Yes asuras make it more difficult, but my point is still valid in terms of general game design philosophy.

Convict.8526:

I don’t think this incorporated skill. this game is about team play, and in a team fight you wouldn’t be paying attention to what weapon they are using, and if so, it doesn’t change much. i believe the element of skill should be implemented into the weapons you chose to use, and being able to switch from them at your will that will benefit you given your situation.

elementalists and warriors basically have this free range of weapon swapping, so why not other professions?

The most important effect of weapon swap cds is forcing players to make decisions that can alter the course of the fight they are in. The skill is in deciding when to be in what weapon for what situation. Also: ele and warriors have wep swap cds, fyi

I’ve been saying this for a while.. Nerf Asura, make their weapons 25% bigger, and their size 25% bigger in sPVP if they are ultra tiny asura.

Totally Serious, this is definitely one of the worst parts of TPVP for me, I hate those little rat people with all my heart.

Also nerfing the elementalist; That’s their class mechanic.. it’s supposed to be instant just like the mesmer shatters are instant…. if you add a CD to ele attunements ele will become tied for Lowest tier.

Darnis.4056:

I’ve been saying this for a while.. Nerf Asura, make their weapons 25% bigger, and their size 25% bigger in sPVP if they are ultra tiny asura.

Totally Serious, this is definitely one of the worst parts of TPVP for me, I hate those little rat people with all my heart.

Also nerfing the elementalist; That’s their class mechanic.. it’s supposed to be instant just like the mesmer shatters are instant…. if you add a CD to ele attunements ele will become tied for Lowest tier.

Ele’s already have CDs on their attunements. Not sure what you mean there.

Internal CDs on switching their attunments.
You can Attunement switch into Blazing speed into an attunement swap to Earthquake for instance.

Darnis.4056:

Internal CDs on switching their attunments.
You can Attunement switch into Blazing speed for instance.

I guess I still don’t follow (maybe I’m being really dense). Currently, when an ele swaps to fire, they have 8-12 seconds (depending on arcana points) before they can swap back to that one. Do you mean a CD that would prevent them from swapping to any attunement for x amount of time? I don’t think anyone is calling for that (at least I hope not).

That’s what I read the Op’s message as..
“Elementalists need an attunement swap CD”

Like either a hard CD as in you are only able to switch every 10 seconds.
Or a soft CD 0.25 Seconds of CD after switching

Edit; Edits in both posts for clarity.

It adds a layer of strategy.

Darnis.4056:

That’s what I read the Op’s message as..
“Elementalists need an attunement swap CD”

Like either a hard CD as in you are only able to switch every 10 seconds.
Or a soft CD 0.25 Seconds of CD after switching

Edit; Edits in both posts for clarity.

I think the OP is saying that there should be no weapon swap CDs for any class. He understands the current CD placed on eles (attunement swapping CD that prevents you from going back to that attunement for 8-12 seconds) because of the buffs you get for attunement swapping (tier 1 arcana trait).

What I would like to see is all classes end up like Engineer kits. You can swap to them at any time, add initiative cost for thief swap and remove the trait that gives buffs to eles.

felivear.1536:

Darnis.4056:

That’s what I read the Op’s message as..
“Elementalists need an attunement swap CD”

Like either a hard CD as in you are only able to switch every 10 seconds.
Or a soft CD 0.25 Seconds of CD after switching

Edit; Edits in both posts for clarity.

I think the OP is saying that there should be no weapon swap CDs for any class. He understands the current CD placed on eles (attunement swapping CD that prevents you from going back to that attunement for 8-12 seconds) because of the buffs you get for attunement swapping (tier 1 arcana trait).

What I would like to see is all classes end up like Engineer kits. You can swap to them at any time, add initiative cost for thief swap and remove the trait that gives buffs to eles.

Well since we’re going for balance. Since eles have access to 4 skill bars with all different types of damage and CC options. Let’s go ahead and give every other class 4 weapon sets that they can swap between. I mean it’s only fair right? Eles get 20 abilities and everyone else gets 10? How did this make it into the game and considered balanced?

Oh. woops… kitten you last sentence…

I don’t think he’s arguing for a buff to all classes just warrior (given his post history.). who can already switch faster with their balanced tree…

I’d love this on my mesmer, and you would hate it.

Weaponswitch adds a level of strategy to many classes..

Thief Mesmer Ranger even warriors would become way to ridiculous with 0 cooldown weaponswitches you would have to make every class have longer cooldowns to compensate…. and some Trees would have to be reworked (Warrior;Balance) to add buffs.

It’d be like destroying class balance in one fell swoop… you’d have to redo the system from the bottom up.

Chi Malady.2015:

It adds a layer of strategy.

Counter strategy?

When an Engineer instantly switches to tool kit with no cooldown and pulls you from 1200 range, where is the counter strategy in that? When an engineer instantly swaps to bomb kit and lays down a knockback bomb, do you view the swap to bomb kit and then counter? Not really, the Engineer can instantly swap to bomb kit at any time with no cooldown – you look and see the bomb on the ground with a large red AoE ring, and you counter accordingly. It’s not the swap to the kit that has layers of strategy, but rather the skills themselves have counter strategy built into them.

No weapon swap delay would also favor thiefs , who dont have ability cds but use initiative, they could rotate between there weapons for even more manuverability.

daydream.2938:

No weapon swap delay would also favor thiefs , who dont have ability cds but use initiative, they could rotate between there weapons for even more manuverability.

True. If in doubt, shortbow out. Same goes for Mesmer’s phase retreat.

daydream.2938:

No weapon swap delay would also favor thiefs , who dont have ability cds but use initiative, they could rotate between there weapons for even more manuverability.

This would be freaking sweet! Thief gameplay would look more dynamic and mobile and wouldn’t be entirely overpower (they still have to manage initiative).

Chi Malady.2015:

It adds a layer of strategy.

“Adds a layer of strategy” – doesn’t back up the argument. Wouldn’t be surprised if the same girl complains for more Warrior buffs when Warrior does get buffed.

The point of Fast Hands is.. take Shield Stance for example vs. lets say… a Mesmer. I didn’t use Shield Stance as an opener, instead I poke with Eviscerate. So then I’m normal attacking, switching to GS and using Whirlwind Attack and then get caught by an immobilize 5 seconds later. If I didn’t have Fast Hands, I probably would’ve ate a shatter combo right there because NOW Fast Hands allowed me to save Shield Stance.

It allows flexibility on when to use skills such as “Charge” and “Shield Stance.” THAT is the point of Fast Hands.

Also, zone you need to take a breather. You get worked up over the most trivial things.

zone.1073:

What does the weapon swap CD accomplish in balance?

Take Warriors for example. Why is there a weapon swap cooldown for them? Would there be a significant change in balance if there were no weapon swap CD for Warriors? Would it be any worst than Engineers, who can freely swap between kits with no CD.

Elementalists need an attunement swap CD because they receive extremely powerful effects automatically upon swapping (auto burst heal + regen when going into water, protection from earth, etc). Obviously they need a CD for their swaps. What about other classes, though?

Eles don’t get anything unless they use the major trait in arcana, before doing any claim at the very least you should read wiki…by the way it’s surely impressive the amount of knowledge these “top” players possess compared to us “minor” folks, you do wonder what’s the meaning of the word “top” player in this game when these “top” players know far less than the average joe who installed the game yesterday

Locks Mesmers away from Blurred Frenzy for 10s.

It just seems odd that Warriors, who are supposed to be “masters of weaponry” in this game, are held back by a weapon swap cooldown – not to mention only having a handful of viable weapon choices among the sea of useless trash available. The question is: What is being held back? If Warriors had no weapon swap cooldown (just like how Engineers have no kit swap cooldown), how much worst can it be?

I’m pretty sure this would bring some balance issues. I bet there is some weapon combos that would be just be too overwhelming with 0 CD on weapon swap.

ITT, People who don’t know how attunement swapping works on Eles want a CD which already has a CD…

Sigh.

Darnis.4056:

I’ve been saying this for a while.. Nerf Asura, make their weapons 25% bigger, and their size 25% bigger in sPVP if they are ultra tiny asura.

Totally Serious, this is definitely one of the worst parts of TPVP for me, I hate those little rat people with all my heart.
…

yep valid complain.. asura are terrible.. every wanna be runs as asura.

weapon swap cd is there to make this game as simple as possible ..
unlike other mmos where u have a decision of over 20+ skills at any moment to use, in GW2 its a simple matter of using ur most important abitlities on ur specific weapon set and then swithcing weapons asap and rinse and repeating, theres no real decision making its too simple, and at any 1 time u only have the decision of 1 abitility out of 5-7 abitilitys instead of 1 out of 20+ in most other mmos.

this is why alot of the time u see a rank 1-5 player using the exact same rotation that a rank 50+ is using because the game has a ridiculously low skillcap due to the weapon swap setup.

dimyzuka.7051:

this is why alot of the time u see a rank 1-5 player using the exact same rotation that a rank 50+ is using because the game has a ridiculously low skillcap due to the weapon swap setup.

there is nothing like a “combo chain skills” so i don’t understand the point. you have 10 skills for 2 weapon sets.

dimyzuka.7051:

weapon swap cd is there to make this game as simple as possible ..
unlike other mmos where u have a decision of over 20+ skills at any moment to use, in GW2 its a simple matter of using ur most important abitlities on ur specific weapon set and then swithcing weapons asap and rinse and repeating, theres no real decision making its too simple, and at any 1 time u only have the decision of 1 abitility out of 5-7 abitilitys instead of 1 out of 20+ in most other mmos.

this is why alot of the time u see a rank 1-5 player using the exact same rotation that a rank 50+ is using because the game has a ridiculously low skillcap due to the weapon swap setup.

Heheh, just warning you, this is gonna catch you some flames. True, there’s probably less math in GW2 because calculating your optimal “dps rotation” doesn’t really…help.

zone.1073:

Chi Malady.2015:

It adds a layer of strategy.

Counter strategy?

When an Engineer instantly switches to tool kit with no cooldown and pulls you from 1200 range, where is the counter strategy in that? When an engineer instantly swaps to bomb kit and lays down a knockback bomb, do you view the swap to bomb kit and then counter? Not really, the Engineer can instantly swap to bomb kit at any time with no cooldown – you look and see the bomb on the ground with a large red AoE ring, and you counter accordingly. It’s not the swap to the kit that has layers of strategy, but rather the skills themselves have counter strategy built into them.

These are already balanced. Notice how engineers and ele’s cannot swap weapons. They are designed to be as such. The other classes we have other mechanics that compensate for us not having as many weapon skills like they get with attunements and kits and while engineer may not have CD on swapping kits all of his kit weapon skills have some form of CD same with Ele weapons skills per attunement.

Eles have GCD on their attunement swapping.Its 2 sec with 0 points in arcana and 1.25 with 30 points i beleive..Im just shocked at how many people decide to make new topics on the official forums for suggestions when they completely ignore basic things for the game they play.Also im not gonna explain how but the cd of weapon swapping is there for a balancing reason and asking them to remove it is well..asking for a complete redesign of weaponsets in a lot of cases

Asomal.6453:

This would be freaking sweet! Thief gameplay would look more dynamic and mobile and wouldn’t be entirely overpower (they still have to manage initiative).

lol just lol…

I would love no CDs on weaponswap so my bunker can dodge forever

Embershard.7294:

I would love no CDs on weaponswap so my bunker can dodge forever

And how exactly would that happen just by removing the weapon CD…

Wreckdum.8367:

Well since we’re going for balance. Since eles have access to 4 skill bars with all different types of damage and CC options. Let’s go ahead and give every other class 4 weapon sets that they can swap between. I mean it’s only fair right? Eles get 20 abilities and everyone else gets 10? How did this make it into the game and considered balanced?

It doesn’t work quite the way you think it does.

Eles have more skills, but many are situational abilities that would be included in an attack skill for other classes, and almost all of their auto attacks are worthless. Hop in the mists and auto attack down a heavy golem with a scepter. Is that what you want your AA damage to look like? Ele skills also have cooldowns 2-3 times longer than equivalent weapon skills for other classes.

Ele attunement swap cooldown is 16 seconds compared to 10 seconds for weapon swap, which forces eles to spend half of their available trait points in a support line to be viable. Needing to swap attunements frequently is often a disadvantage with on swap weapon sigils, because you trigger sigils when you don’t benefit from it (e.g. triggering sigil of energy when you don’t need energy).

There’s a lot more to it than you think and you probably wouldn’t want to trade off the advantages for the disadvantages in most case.

Check: Sigil of Battle. No CD on weapon-change: get 25 Stacks might.

Thief + 100% crit on next attack sigilx2. run d/d and d/d.

5 + w/s + 1, 1, 1, 1

if there were no cooldown on weapon swap, you could insure a 100% crit on backstab every 3.5 seconds (up to 3.25 with haste), without actually having the trait required to do so. This would make that trait entirely pointless.

I have provided math and logic within my answer. Thank you for the question. Have a nice day.

Talkcikz.5076:

Thief + 100% crit on next attack sigilx2. run d/d and d/d.

5 + w/s + 1, 1, 1, 1

if there were no cooldown on weapon swap, you could insure a 100% crit on backstab every 3.5 seconds (up to 3.25 with haste), without actually having the trait required to do so. This would make that trait entirely pointless.

I have provided math and logic within my answer. Thank you for the question. Have a nice day.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Check: Sigil of Battle. No CD on weapon-change: get 25 Stacks might.

All weapon swap sigils have a 9 second CD by default. both of your answers are invalid, I one day dream of a world where people would test out their assumptions first as tooltips are not reliable in this game. Just because a CD is not listed does not mean it does not exist, examples of this are the two sigils you guys have mentioned and another is the earth sigil (2 sec CD), Please do not spread ignorance in this game.