Guild Wars 2

I hear people talking about “high level play”. What does that mean exactly?

People say the game should be balanced around high level play. That builds or skills that people complain about or say are OP really aren’t because they aren’t played in high level play. Etc.

What exactly is considered high level play? How many players are playing high level play? What percentage of the playerbase plays high level play?

I assume if something is called “high” then it is compared to other play that is deemed “average” or “low”? So it can’t be all that many people that play high level play or else it wouldn’t be high anymore. So why would you balance and design around a small percentage of the playerbase?

For me, high level play means tournament level or at least serious competition level.

Balance around the highest level is always what devs do in games that have a competitive scope.

As for lower level players, you can always be catered by a good matchup systems. E.g. profession A is harder to play than profession B. Then player playing A will be matched against player with lower skill level playing B.

But devs will care a bit about average/low level as well. The nerf to turret engi is a good example. It was a good unrank/rank farming build. But the balance standard will always be set a highest level.

High level play is high level play. Proper burst timing, proper dodge timing, proper rotations, etx. People say that it’s tournament level play, but there are a lot of bad teams out there, but you’re bound to find a bunch of people playing at a higher level of skill during tournaments.

The game should be balanced around all levels of play, not just “high level” or “top tier” play.

warherox.7943:

The game should be balanced around all levels of play, not just “high level” or “top tier” play.

The overwhelming amount of balance should be around the high level and top tier levels of play because up until that point most of the calls for things being overpowered or broken are simply learn to play issues. That doesn’t mean low level shouldn’t be considered at all, but most of the time peoples balance concerns at low levels are simply learn to play issues.

High level play is whatever level of play I arbitrarily define it to be to win an argument.

Generally though I’d consider it to be the level of play where players successfully play the map, and also understand both their build and the enemies’ builds. For example, a player who can see both their team and the enemy team’s locations on the map and make an informed decision about where to go is “high level”, a player who goes far point or wherever the enemy is every time they spawn isn’t.

TL;DR version, high level is when players successfully think beyond themselves. They recognize and react to enemy builds and the situation as it happens, not according to a pre-memorized rotation.

zapv.8051:

warherox.7943:

The game should be balanced around all levels of play, not just “high level” or “top tier” play.

The overwhelming amount of balance should be around the high level and top tier levels of play because up until that point most of the calls for things being overpowered or broken are simply learn to play issues. That doesn’t mean low level shouldn’t be considered at all, but most of the time peoples balance concerns at low levels are simply learn to play issues.

I disagree. The “high level” and “top tier” players are only interested in one thing and one thing only… WINNING.

To that end they believe in that old adage that “The ends always justify the means” and they only really care about the destination. The journey means NOTHING to them. They will find the slightest edge, use any exploit, download and use outside software, program macros for their gaming mice and keyboards that allow perfect execution of rotations, and do whatever else it takes to win. PERIOD. That is what is fun for them and if it comes at another’s expense or infracts some other person’s “lame” code or ethic then so be it.

Unless you create and balance the perfect game, it will NEVER be balanced for these people because they have devoted their lives to exploiting any advantage they can take to win.

However most people who play this game do so for the fun. The journey is what they enjoy and most of them are the “average Joe” players that are always looked down upon and condescended to because they don’t know all the loopholes of the mechanics of the game. What they DO know however is if the game is fun or not and if you balance around the fun and NOT around what a small minority deems is good for the game then you will have a very successful and thriving gaming community and much more fun game to play.

You mileage may vary.

Thanks.

PvP Tournaments are considered “High Level Play” or “High Tier PvP” because of its competitive environment. More specifically, it’s a realm where highly synchronized teams go to compete against other highly synchronized teams. These teams practically define what every class should and shouldn’t play in Structured PvP due to the excellent performances of their class specific builds.

There always seems to be two different arguments on the PvP forums. The casual lower tier players who call certain items OP and the higher tier, highly synchronized players, rebutting such accusations. These items may not be an issue in higher level play or quite simply, they can be outplayed in one form or another. Unfortunately, there are 10x more casual players who find these subjective items unbalanced.

We’re currently in a very sensitive situation regarding class balances because there are more L2P issues from players accusations due to not being accustomed to new in-game mechanics. Arenanet has to take every single accusation with a grain of salt.

why balance for people who don’t know what skills people are using and don’t recognise tells? normally the complaints from these people boil down to ‘they used cc then damage OP NERF NERF NERF’.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

download and use outside software, program macros for their gaming mice and keyboards that allow perfect execution of rotations

You realize the big tournaments take place on a public stage right?

i said this in another post but feel that it applies here….

Take pvp with a grain of salt. Seriously. Colin already stated this is balance (lol). So find the most OP build and use it. Or “meta” or OP build which is basically meta for its time.
I mean think about it, has there ever been a game to promote itself around balance…of course not….its about finding the most exploitative build and using it. AKA meta…. others will run their favorites. Then these same people will come on the forums and complain. Its the life of gaming these days.

Helcor.9527:

i said this in another post but feel that it applies here….

Take pvp with a grain of salt. Seriously. Colin already stated this is balance (lol). So find the most OP build and use it. Or “meta” or OP build which is basically meta for its time.
I mean think about it, has there ever been a game to promote itself around balance…of course not….its about finding the most exploitative build and using it. AKA meta…. others will run their favorites. Then these same people will come on the forums and complain. Its the life of gaming these days.

If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em, eh?

As long as it is fun, I am OK with that philosophy…

One thing that most players don’t understand is that something having a counter doesn’t always mean it’s balanced.

To answer that last aspect. As soon as people stop saying the following, I am more than willing at Anet balancing for all aspects in the competitive aspect of the game.

Examples of baseless crying:

• Stealth is OP
• Profession is OP
• Mesmer (formerly Thief) is OP
• I got hit for 40K damage in 1s – clearly the game is unbalanced
• I cannot fight someone without getting all conditions on me
• Condition Meta
• There is no counter
• [Any profession aside Ranger] is weak and Anet hates us
• Anet loves other professions aside from mine better

Considering that this is what I read on a roughly daily basis, as in, a lot of whining without pointing out the actual faults (why would you ever try to learn what the enemy does), just generally a lot of crying which does not translate to what apparently happens on the field – I do say, the last thing I want is Anet to balance around these people’s comfort because most have an issue with finding out as to why they die anyway. Imagine Anet listening when someone says “Ranger OP” and they nerf the pet damage, because it was not specified as to what is OP. Imagine them listening to “Oh my God power is insane!” and then removing all offensive capabilties from every profession, making PvP a running contest to see who can get to the node the quickest.
And no, the arguement “But it was already explained in other threads why Jimmy is OP” does not work in the grander scheme of things, especially when it comes to the amount of tears that floods this forum.

So thanks but no thanks. I prefer to keep this game balanced about the 0.5% who actually care and have at least some crediblity. Not saying they are always right about profession balancing (no one can be), but they oftentimes succeed better at pointing out what is flawed than the majority here.

High level is the top 10-20% of active PvP. These are the players who drive the meta because lower tier players will copy their strats.

Edit: This example is not reality.

Take for example a low tier player (bad) who complains because he (a thief) cannot ever beat a necro. On the flip side a high tier thief can beat a necro 70-80% of the time. The problem arises when the devs balance to the desire of the low tier player. Balancing to this thief equals a nerf to necros, which is clearly the wrong thing to do when viewing the matchup at another tier as the high tier thief will go from 70%-80% win rate to 90%-100% win rate.

Since high tier play is the driving force behind the games pvp health, poor balance for that tier can destroy a game quickly.

The reason why you balance around high level play are the following:

- On a high level, ppl try to maximize effectiveness, it shows how things should be played and what’s possible.
- High level play shapes the metagame and what ppl are playing: these are the players we watch on streams, whose builds lower level players copy etc.
- Given enough time, lower levels of play will eventually catch up to what was deemed high level play: playstyles, builds and certain amounts of skill will be adapted by more and more ppl, so if you want to balance longterm, it’s best to balance around high level play.
- Often, players that play on a higher level understand the game and it’s underlying mechanics much better, so they will sooner identify and play things that are simply broken or too strong and they will completely neglect things that are clearly underpowered, so a clear distinction between top-builds/strategies and the rest will be seen very quickly. In lower levels of play, ppl don’t necessarily just play the best builds, but more what they like.
- high level of play is mostly well organized teamplay, whilst lower levels of play are often soloQ’ers or random groups, maybe even without TS: You can’t balance a teamgame around that as the highest priority.
- Another big reason is on the top level, you actually have pretty good pretty good measurements of skill (how many tournaments has the team won, can they keep up with other top-teams, how big was the tournament etc.), which is clearly way better than pvp-rank or number of games played. So if you see a top-team or player suddenly loosing to a comp or certain build or sth. like that, it’s a better indication of how good the build/strategy is than sm1 whining on the forums, where you have no clue whether they simply played against much better players.

Of course you should keep all levels of play in mind when balancing (and I think ANet has reacted many times to builds that didn’t see any play at a high level, but that many other players complained about), but the priority should be high levels of play – it just makes more sense.

Ryan.9387:

High level is the top 10-20% of active PvP. These are the players who drive the meta because lower tier players will copy their strats.

Take for example a low tier player (bad) who complains because he (a thief) cannot ever beat a necro. On the flip side a high tier thief can beat a necro 70-80% of the time. The problem arises when the devs balance to the desire of the low tier player. Balancing to this thief equals a nerf to necros, which is clearly the wrong thing to do when viewing the matchup at another tier as the high tier thief will go from 70%-80% win rate to 90%-100% win rate.

Since high tier play is the driving force behind the games pvp health, poor balance for that tier can destroy a game quickly.

So you saying a high level thief against a high level necro thief will won 70% -80% of the time that means the game is not balance thief is OP compare with necro

It is a team game so balancing shouldn’t be based on 1v1s.

Oh oh he memories are comming back (2012-2013)…. !

‘’Everything is balanced around top lvl , and as long as there are athletes ppl will flock to the stadium’’ .
’’Some specs wont see the light of the competive scene , but rather they are a hotjoin noobstomper spec ……
(2 months later Jumper(thief) rocked the tournaments with that (D/D and haste+2222 when he saw Phantarasm , or haste +Dancing Dagger spam (3100 crit) at Kylo mid base :P )

LoL needed 4 years to be a succefull e-sport game .
GW2 will be 4 years old soon
Money prizes are jeopardised atm
The good part , is those moeny will go in PvE
Stay on your ’’league’’ and dont say moronic things that casual want ladder , but they dont want balance …. otherwise i will deticate my time to make you a foul when new ppl come :PPP
Dont force me to ’’camp’’ the pvp forums , while i simply want to ‘’fade away’’

Lord Helseth rules :P

Johje Holan.4607:

I hear people talking about “high level play”. What does that mean exactly?

For most games it means the pros. Sadly, Guild Wars 2 lost their “high level players” very early on and never fixed the kitten that was wrong with the game to get them back.

This game has floated at “average play” and will continue to do so for the rest of the game’s life more than likely.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Oh oh he memories are comming back (2012-2013)…. !

‘’Everything is balanced around top lvl , and as long as there are athletes ppl will flock to the stadium’’ .
’’Some specs wont see the light of the competive scene , but rather they are a hotjoin noobstomper spec ……
(2 months later Jumper(thief) rocked the tournaments with that (D/D and haste+2222 when he saw Phantarasm , or haste +Dancing Dagger spam (3100 crit) at Kylo mid base :P )

LoL needed 4 years to be a succefull e-sport game .
GW2 will be 4 years old soon
Money prizes are jeopardised atm
The good part , is those moeny will go in PvE
Stay on your ’’league’’ and dont say moronic things that casual want ladder , but they dont want balance …. otherwise i will deticate my time to make you a foul when new ppl come :PPP
Dont force me to ’’camp’’ the pvp forums , while i simply want to ‘’fade away’’

Lord Helseth rules :P

Burn Guardian prepatch was a hotjoin noobstomper spec for sure. Perhaps that’s what he was refering to rather than the specifics of his statement; there are many hotjoin “noob stomper” builds that wont work in competitive play.

^ For the record, completely glass thieves don’t work as well in solo pvp because of the random condi builds, but work well in tpvp due to shoutwars, Ele’s and Guards countering all condition built classes – prepatch. It’s a bit different this time around.

If Colin himself made that statement, it definitely wasn’t out of arrogance. The game was, and still is, one of the most balanced PvP MMO’s I’ve ever played. I love the game’s PvP now more than ever. There’s a sense of resonance to it that wasn’t there before but perhaps that’s my own devotion to the game’s competitiveness, considering I’ve been active almost nonstop since 2014.

The game’s competitive level is going to explode thanks to the new Stronghold gametype. It simply caters more to a broader audience compared to Conquest. The competitive scene can stay put for another 2 years assuming Arenanet’s advertisement team does a good job this Q4 and early Q1 of next year.

choovanski.5462:

why balance for people who don’t know what skills people are using and don’t recognise tells? normally the complaints from these people boil down to ‘they used cc then damage OP NERF NERF NERF’.

people complaining about mesmers while not even able to dodge mirror blade….

forum logic

Archaon.9524:

choovanski.5462:

why balance for people who don’t know what skills people are using and don’t recognise tells? normally the complaints from these people boil down to ‘they used cc then damage OP NERF NERF NERF’.

people complaining about mesmers while not even able to dodge mirror blade….

forum logic

like every mesmer jumps to increase the range too. idk how anyone could miss it.

In high level noone cares about having fun (I mean a fun match is always good but that’s not what you should care about)…you play what your team needs you to play (If you’re good enough at it ofc…if not someone else is gonna replace you) in order to win, you have specific roles and your mates expect you to do your job when needed (Example: if there’s an enemy mesmer i don’t have to tell my thief to go on him, thieves already know they must always pressure mesmers as much as possible..while random pug thieves are probably just going svanir or something), if i’m on war with my mesmer mate and we’re in 2v2 there’s no need to tell me to stay on point to let mesmer kite…while i’ve seen plenty of brain-damaged wars (While i was on mesmer) leaving me holding point while they were chasing eles around it (Doing absolutely nothing ofc…and as warrrior main it’s real pain to watch those people), team not cleaving on downed, not calling targets and so on are things that you won’t find in high level games…ar at least shouldn’t…

There are so many differences between casual yolo guys and high level players that one thread won’t be enough to list everything

High level play is just a way for each player to say how good they are or an attempt to belittle a class they can counter.

BUT there ARE people who idolize TS teams dominating pug teams and refer to them as high level plays and what not. Congrats on communication and a decent FPS lol

To be honest, there is no high level play game mode. It is just the same as saying verses the 1 % of the best of the best. Basically it.

High level play is merely a competitive level in which inherent class skills and behaviors become the determining factor for matchup. Its a simple way of saying “a theoretical match in which both players of a given class play perfectly.”

Any suggested nerfs to fix imbalance at high level play are saying that “even if class x plays perfectly against class y, the nature of his class by default puts him at a disadvantage.” These people want to balance that so that player of different classes but equal skill levels always draw.

That’s gonna be hard.

aggelos r.5387:

Ryan.9387:

High level is the top 10-20% of active PvP. These are the players who drive the meta because lower tier players will copy their strats.

Take for example a low tier player (bad) who complains because he (a thief) cannot ever beat a necro. On the flip side a high tier thief can beat a necro 70-80% of the time. The problem arises when the devs balance to the desire of the low tier player. Balancing to this thief equals a nerf to necros, which is clearly the wrong thing to do when viewing the matchup at another tier as the high tier thief will go from 70%-80% win rate to 90%-100% win rate.

Since high tier play is the driving force behind the games pvp health, poor balance for that tier can destroy a game quickly.

So you saying a high level thief against a high level necro thief will won 70% -80% of the time that means the game is not balance thief is OP compare with necro

No. I just picked something for the example.

I edited the post to clarify.