Guild Wars 2

OP Post sounds like drunken rambling to me – most of it barely makes sense.

Hes kinda right about necros lack of attack animation (which btw. is entirely not related to conditions themselves) and their 6 second (hi tooltip) burn proc i guess but barely anything he says makes any sense at all. (Also necro kinda needs this to compensate for being slow – best long range class atm imo – but staff is getting nerfed anyway )

Many things have already been addressed – TLDR at the end of post

I just picked a few..

Nova Stiker.8396:

-There is never a bad time to use Pin Down.
-There can be plenty of bad times to use Hundred Blades.

Ofc there is wtf? plenty of times – when opponent is dodgeing/avoiding when hes out of range? when you are in a 3v1 and shouldnt waste the cooldown?

missing pin down means no guaranteed F1 which is pretty kitten good as combo

with houndred blades i guess because it isnt a ranged skill you cant just always cast it but thats an issue of range vs melee so wtf?

i really dont get how this relates to conditions / what your point is at all – explain pls

Nova Stiker.8396:

As for conditions
Whether an enemy is at 5% health or 100% health, lay on the conditions, it doesn’t matter if you give an enemy with full health 10 stacks of bleeding or an enemy with low health 10 seconds of burning.
There is no punishment. Burn as much a possible, bleed as much as possible, poison as often as you can, spam that confusion, hit with torment on recharge. It’s not for damage, it’s for the times you couldn’t damage.

You dont want to waste a long cooldown 10 second burn on a low health person! are you trolling? This part strikes me as particularly dumb.

What do you even mean punishment?? xD Are you asking for a sort of punishment for me trying to damage you? xD Of Course im trying to * bleed as much and burn and poison as much as i can* just like a warrior tries to kittening hit me with as much kitten as he can as well just that my damage gets applied afterwards

OfC you want to do as much damage as possible on a full hp person as possible so you use all your options

would you want to waste a long cooldown high dps skill on a person with low hp? no
does it matter wether if its a skill that does condition damage or direct damage? no

TLDR: Fotm Engi with ubertankmode rabid amulet has less hp and equal thoughness as fotm hambow berserker warrior. Also OP is probably high.

RaynStargaze.6510:

Ofc there is wtf? plenty of times – when opponent is dodgeing/avoiding when hes out of range? when you are in a 3v1 and shouldnt waste the cooldown?

missing pin down means no guaranteed F1 which is pretty kitten good as combo

Yeah.
And you could have accidently untargeting and turned around to face a wall while you were at it…

Yes you can miss any attack by throwing it at someone who is in the middle of a dodge roll or is invulnerable…
So think.
If everyone knows that, what could he possibly mean by ‘there isn’t a bad time for it’???

Hint, you might not have to take him entirely literally
(this is life, most people don’t say everything letter of the word literally and only fools expect otherwise)

RaynStargaze.6510:

You dont want to waste a long cooldown 10 second burn on a low health person! are you trolling? This part strikes me as particularly dumb.

In a min-maxing world, sure.
But most fights aren’t more than 1v1s or 2v2s or not close enough that it matters (condi CDs don’t tend to be all that long) so the leniency on just blindly spamming condis is VERY high.

garethh.3518:

RaynStargaze.6510:

You dont want to waste a long cooldown 10 second burn on a low health person! are you trolling? This part strikes me as particularly dumb.

In a min-maxing world, sure.
But most fights aren’t more than 1v1s or 2v2s or not close enough that it matters (condi CDs don’t tend to be all that long) so the leniency on just blindly spamming condis is VERY high.

so just blindly spamming my 8 sek cd burn bomb is bad gameplay and needs a nerf but the 8 sek cd hammer F1 which is aoe + condi cleanse + stun is ok?

ok bad example we all know how op warri is and that its getting a nerf

other classes have strong skills on low cd as well though especially thief with no cooldown on strong spamable skills (but very squishy in return so yea). Ele burst might be scary next patch with fresh air trait and is only avoidable by random doge and its very low cd as well. Necro god of condi has fear for burst which is overall on a reasonably high cooldown with the death shroud 3 standing out because its instant and again very hard to avoid except for random dodge. (and war being op – just sayin..)

Mesmer imo the only class with a legit power build that kinda lacks in spam but they have illusions which last for a while in smaller fights to kinda make up for it (+bleed on clone crit)

Overall if there really is an issue with a certain skill being too strong it should be looked at individually and not as kitten kitten conditions op nerf plx

also with almost all conditions you get the chance to avoid the damage – twice

only exception being on crit procs which are indeed not creating good gameplay because they are unavoidable – they are also getting more and more important when damage on actual skills is reduced (like bleed reduction on necro weapons)(same thing with fire / lightning sigil tough i think? not sure – unavoidable dmg guys get it here)

RaynStargaze.6510:

Overall if there really is an issue with a certain skill being too strong it should be looked at individually and not as kitten kitten conditions op nerf plx

You expect Anet… to improve quality on that large of a scale?
lol.
Anet can’t even improve quality on a small scale.
The vast majority of the abilities they have kittened with only ended up making the game play worse…
Wanting them to just ‘improve quality’ isnt possible, they can’t…

short of allot of pessimism…
Well defined specifics and an overhaul of how Anet functions.
GG.

So much wrong information in the first post:

Nova Stiker.8396:

The other day in sPvP I fought a Power necromancer using a staff and scepter. I told him condition necromancers are overpowered and he responded he’s a power necro.

Why staff? Why scepter? Why not dagger or axe? Weapons DESIGNED to use power.

Was the necromancer stupid? No, just the opposite.

The scepter for necromancer is FAST, very fast. No projectiles to wait either, you can hit someone four times with the auto attack by the time they realized there is an enemy nearby.
With such a fast weapon, you can trigger Dhuumfire quickly and safely from range.

Dhuumfire won’t be applied much quicker because of the faster attackspeed. It still has an internal CD of 10s, so you will apply a new burn after that 10s with a faster weapon you will be probably 1s faster, that’s all. With 300 Condition Damage and 30% condition +30% (1200dmg over 3s) burn duration you will deal an additional 110 DPS plus around 10 DPS more or less depending on your luck and “attack speed”. I think a power build will get more benefits from Close to death, so it is not really worth using dhuumfire here.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Bleeding, poison, burning on a power build? What is the point? Sure it does damage but isn’t it not effective without condition damage?

The only reason i see to use scepter is the poison to reduce the enemies heal and the CC capabilities. You won’t deal more damage because you use a scepter in a power build.

Nova Stiker.8396:

The point is:

• No matter how the enemy responds, evades, blocks or go invisible. You are doing damage that pure based builds would miss. If you don’t miss, you simply do more damage.

It’s why you see so many builds that use power but abuse condition traits or skills. It’s why they are superior to other builds and even classes.

This thing you call a “problem of conditions” is the key to understand how they are working. Yes you will get damage, while dodging, blocking, being invisible or invulnerable but this damages comes from conditions applied to you much earlier. Conditions aren’t called damage over time for no reason. They deal the damage a power build would hit you with over a certain time. So if there is a huge amount of conditions on you a power build would probably have killed you already.

With the dodge you evade the current attack, not one of the past! This means, you will be damaged by older conditions, but there won’t be a new one applied to you and there for it is possible to dodge condition damage.

If it would be possible to negate the damage of all conditions applied to you for one second, a dodge should heal you for 10-20% of the damage dealt to you during the last 5 seconds, if you think about it, you will see it would be the same behavior.

Nova Stiker.8396:

This WILL be a trend in Guild Wars 2 combat unless mechanics are changed. Taking condition inflicting skills or traits in power based builds, just for the sake of more unavoidable damage.

See above conditions can be avoided, due to dodges, blocks, etc. just because you still get damage doesn’t mean the dodge, block, … didn’t work.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Which leads to the main problem with conditions, they don’t punish failure and reward spamming.

-There is never a bad time to use Pin Down.
-There can be plenty of bad times to use Hundred Blades.

-There is never a bad time to use Crossfire.
-There can be plenty of bad times to use Concussion Shot.

-There is never a bad time to use Blood Curse.
-There can be plenty of bad times to use Life Siphon.

What are you comparing here? Those skills aren’t even comparable.

Why didn’t you compare Pin Down with Concussion Shot? Both are ranged CCs with 25s CD.
Why didn’t you compare autoattacks with other autoattacks?
Why didn’t you compare skills, that do the nearly same thing? (CC, stun, …)

Nova Stiker.8396:

The problem with conditions is not damage nor skill. It’s timing.
Fire Grab, Barrage, Eviscerate, good players will not spam these. They know the power they have an will save it for the right moment. To finish off a player or force an enemy to move, power has timing.

As for conditions
Whether an enemy is at 5% health or 100% health, lay on the conditions, it doesn’t matter if you give an enemy with full health 10 stacks of bleeding or an enemy with low health 10 seconds of burning.
There is no punishment. Burn as much a possible, bleed as much as possible, poison as often as you can, spam that confusion, hit with torment on recharge. It’s not for damage, it’s for the times you couldn’t damage.

So a power build does not to want to hit the enemy as often as possible, to increase the damage dealt? That’s interesting.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Conditions needs a mechanic, as of right now it’s purpose is diminishing to damage that the player couldn’t land.

So if a condition player doesn’t hit you, you want to get less damage, right?
You know how conditions are working? If the enemy doesn’t hit you due to blocks, blinds, etc., most of that stuff that prevents direct damage, you won’t get new conditions and there for less damage. The best thing, anet doesn’t even have to change something in GW2, because this is implemented right now! -> Problem solved.

unleashed.8679:

So if there is a huge amount of conditions on you a power build would probably have killed you already.

Conditions and physical specs tend to function entirely differently…
Just saying ‘hey you got condis, well your lucky it wasnt a glass warrior using eviscerate…’
That doesn’t work.

Condi’s are setup like kitten and it’s a very frustrating issue for many….

To get those conditions, the condition spec has to hit you multiple times. Of course it is not that easy and there are other variable involved as well, for example the defense, etc. But this works also the other way around (condi cleanse). And there for I used the “probably” in this sentence.

Eh… this is so true. Conditions has always been a problem in this game, and i feel like they will always be. But the root problem arent just conditions, its a mentality issue. Devs keep thinking that adding more of X to solve Y problem would work, but they are just making thing worse. As someone here rightfully stated adding more condition removal is not the way to solve the problem, cause it will just force ppl to use lot of condition removal to not be overwhelmed by the constant reapplication.

The root problem is that they didnt realize that “more” =\= “better”, they should have developed this game with this idea in mind: “few but good”.

The OP is just right when he says that conditions can be spammed without worring about whats really going on, cause the chances to re-apply those conditions are so high , and so frequently that its not even worth bothering too much.

In order to have a really good and balanced game it should be planned thinking to not have any break stun or condition removal.

Ezrael.6859:

40% condition duration, standard traits 30.20.0.0.20. No Earth Sigil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ztv2ZGCN9Q

Count them. 6 ticks of Burning, 4 Bleeds that each last 8 seconds and 5 seconds of Poison. From one 900 range instant hit auto-attack chain that takes 1.5 seconds to complete.

Even if Dhuumfire magically becomes 66% less duration in sPvP you never needed Burning and you never needed Torment. This is just rabid power creep of the devs adding conditions to the game while trying to counter it with more condi removal.

Necros could kill all professions fine before both Dhuumfire and Torment, it used to be a skilled class. Now it’s the epitome of condition spam easymode.

I already posted this, but there’s a bug that makes the heart of the mists function as a PvE map. Dhuumfire has a longer base duration in PvE maps. As others have said, the longest burn you can get in PvP from dhuumfire is 3 seconds.

Also, the four burns come from two crits in a row that both proc barbed precision, a necromancer trait that has a chance on a critical hit chance to proc a 2 second bleed. If you watch the video, you’ll notice that the four stacks of bleeding only stay up for a couple of ticks, and then the bleed damage goes back down to 217/second (the two longer bleeds from the actual scepter attack). So first off, it is incredibly unlikely for a necro to get both procs in a row (it would be like saying that a thief auto chain does 6k damage because it’s possible that all the hits could crit). And second, it’s not four stacks of bleeding for 8 seconds, it’s two stacks of bleeding for 8 seconds and two stacks of bleeding for 3 seconds.

I don’t even like playing necro, but I feel it’s important for balance threads such as this to be more accurate. People are posting numbers that are double what is actually possible. That’s not healthy feedback.

Why dont we just remove conditions completely, then the zerk only people will be happy. Then all the warriors, thieves and mesmers can kitten eachother off while Im happy playing another game.

unleashed.8679:

So much wrong information in the first post:

Really? The way I see, there are plenty of things wrong with your post.

If you believe that using a power based build that spams conditions isn’t ideal, you don’t PvP enough.
I can tell you the top tier roaming necromancer build is using Berserker Amulets wielding Scepter and Staff.
Dealing as much damage as a zerker ranger with a shortbow but spamming 3 conditions with their auto attack and using fear, death shroud and weakness to safely stay alive.
Making it near impossible to beat 1v1, getting 2 zerker necromancers to focus 1 target? That player is going to blow up, 20 stacks of bleeding, near perma burning and perma Poison. Who needs condition damage when you stack bleeding so fast?

It’s basically what killed Mesmers in the meta game. How can a Mesmer hope to survive against it? Blocking with clones is not possible, reflection doesn’t work, how are you going to hide in your clones when your character is green and on fire?

If you didn’t know that, your argument has no weight.
I’m not even going to counter other things you said, go tPvP more and avoid Hot Join.

I think a better solution to conditions is to cap the number of things that can be applied in pvp to a lower number. The problem doesn’t come from a single condition spammer, it comes when there are multiple condition spammers and so much cover that you can’t cleanse the damaging conditions before you drop. I hate to say cap the number of bleeds or torment or cap the duration of poison or burning because it means if there is more than one condition user it may be a hindrance to the team, but it may be necessary. Also, while you are capping them for spvp, can you remove the caps for PvE so condition builds aren’t seen as a hindrance there?

Ashanor.5319:

I think a better solution to conditions is to cap the number of things that can be applied in pvp to a lower number. The problem doesn’t come from a single condition spammer, it comes when there are multiple condition spammers and so much cover that you can’t cleanse the damaging conditions before you drop. I hate to say cap the number of bleeds or torment or cap the duration of poison or burning because it means if there is more than one condition user it may be a hindrance to the team, but it may be necessary. Also, while you are capping them for spvp, can you remove the caps for PvE so condition builds aren’t seen as a hindrance there?

There are multiple solutions on how to improve conditions, in my suggestion thread I suggested giving conditions more mechanics than just straight damage.

Your suggestion is also valid.

Another suggestion is more cleanse but I greatly disagree with that. It’s not fixing the problem of a lot of conditions, it’s just balancing more cleanse with the number of conditions. Not a lot of conditions means there will be no need for a lot of cleanse.

Another suggestion is more visibility to skills that inflict conditions.

There are multiple solutions but can only be one answer.
_______________________________________________________

As of right now for GW2 PvP/gameplay future, it’s pretty bad and limiting.

IMO there aren’t any big “Condition” skills.
Mesmers use shatter 10 sec c/d + clones and easily avoidable.
Thief has Backstabbing combo not super easy to see but out playable.
Ele has one hit wonder easy to see instagib with ovbviois animation.
Old war had 100b.

Sure things like phats for Mesmers and heart seeker are supplementary moves to go between bursts but clear set up wins you a fight.

Condi dosent have this, if one condi stacking move misses it’s fine you still have auto attack and a bunch of other high stack skills, and all with reletively low cooldowns. I think some skills should be designed as major damage dealers but have more of a heavy shave on the other access to conditions. And I think the damage typing in this maner would justify the tankyness and would be balanced with current removal cooldowns. I think this is a simple but not lazy balance. (I say simple but I mean as opposed to major reworks )

Daishi.6027:

IMO there aren’t any big “Condition” skills.
Mesmers use shatter 10 sec c/d + clones and easily avoidable.
Thief has Backstabbing combo not super easy to see but out playable.
Ele has one hit wonder easy to see instagib with ovbviois animation.
Old war had 100b.

Sure things like phats for Mesmers and heart seeker are supplementary moves to go between bursts but clear set up wins you a fight.

Condi dosent have this, if one condi stacking move misses it’s fine you still have auto attack and a bunch of other high stack skills, and all with reletively low cooldowns. I think some skills should be designed as major damage dealers but have more of a heavy shave on the other access to conditions. And I think the damage typing in this maner would justify the tankyness and would be balanced with current removal cooldowns. I think this is a simple but not lazy balance. (I say simple but I mean as opposed to major reworks )

Just wanted to say I like this idea and +1.

jcbroe.4329:

Daishi.6027:

IMO there aren’t any big “Condition” skills.
Mesmers use shatter 10 sec c/d + clones and easily avoidable.
Thief has Backstabbing combo not super easy to see but out playable.
Ele has one hit wonder easy to see instagib with ovbviois animation.
Old war had 100b.

Sure things like phats for Mesmers and heart seeker are supplementary moves to go between bursts but clear set up wins you a fight.

Condi dosent have this, if one condi stacking move misses it’s fine you still have auto attack and a bunch of other high stack skills, and all with reletively low cooldowns. I think some skills should be designed as major damage dealers but have more of a heavy shave on the other access to conditions. And I think the damage typing in this maner would justify the tankyness and would be balanced with current removal cooldowns. I think this is a simple but not lazy balance. (I say simple but I mean as opposed to major reworks )

Just wanted to say I like this idea and +1.

If they do this, they’ll have to reduce the amount of condition cleansing, which is a good thing.

Nova Stiker.8396:

jcbroe.4329:

Daishi.6027:

IMO there aren’t any big “Condition” skills.
Mesmers use shatter 10 sec c/d + clones and easily avoidable.
Thief has Backstabbing combo not super easy to see but out playable.
Ele has one hit wonder easy to see instagib with ovbviois animation.
Old war had 100b.

Sure things like phats for Mesmers and heart seeker are supplementary moves to go between bursts but clear set up wins you a fight.

Condi dosent have this, if one condi stacking move misses it’s fine you still have auto attack and a bunch of other high stack skills, and all with reletively low cooldowns. I think some skills should be designed as major damage dealers but have more of a heavy shave on the other access to conditions. And I think the damage typing in this maner would justify the tankyness and would be balanced with current removal cooldowns. I think this is a simple but not lazy balance. (I say simple but I mean as opposed to major reworks )

Just wanted to say I like this idea and +1.

If they do this, they’ll have to reduce the amount of condition cleansing, which is a good thing.

Preferably making the majority of cleansing Active options as well.

jcbroe.4329:

Nova Stiker.8396:

jcbroe.4329:

Daishi.6027:

IMO there aren’t any big “Condition” skills.
Mesmers use shatter 10 sec c/d + clones and easily avoidable.
Thief has Backstabbing combo not super easy to see but out playable.
Ele has one hit wonder easy to see instagib with ovbviois animation.
Old war had 100b.

Sure things like phats for Mesmers and heart seeker are supplementary moves to go between bursts but clear set up wins you a fight.

Condi dosent have this, if one condi stacking move misses it’s fine you still have auto attack and a bunch of other high stack skills, and all with reletively low cooldowns. I think some skills should be designed as major damage dealers but have more of a heavy shave on the other access to conditions. And I think the damage typing in this maner would justify the tankyness and would be balanced with current removal cooldowns. I think this is a simple but not lazy balance. (I say simple but I mean as opposed to major reworks )

Just wanted to say I like this idea and +1.

If they do this, they’ll have to reduce the amount of condition cleansing, which is a good thing.

Preferably making the majority of cleansing Active options as well.

It does however, bring up another issue.

If you force conditions to be more skill based landing, that actually hurts quite a few traits that spams conditions. Traits offer different ways conditions are inflicted. If they get nerfed, how should ArenaNet replace them?

Nova Stiker.8396:

jcbroe.4329:

Nova Stiker.8396:

jcbroe.4329:

Daishi.6027:

IMO there aren’t any big “Condition” skills.
Mesmers use shatter 10 sec c/d + clones and easily avoidable.
Thief has Backstabbing combo not super easy to see but out playable.
Ele has one hit wonder easy to see instagib with ovbviois animation.
Old war had 100b.

Sure things like phats for Mesmers and heart seeker are supplementary moves to go between bursts but clear set up wins you a fight.

Condi dosent have this, if one condi stacking move misses it’s fine you still have auto attack and a bunch of other high stack skills, and all with reletively low cooldowns. I think some skills should be designed as major damage dealers but have more of a heavy shave on the other access to conditions. And I think the damage typing in this maner would justify the tankyness and would be balanced with current removal cooldowns. I think this is a simple but not lazy balance. (I say simple but I mean as opposed to major reworks )

Just wanted to say I like this idea and +1.

If they do this, they’ll have to reduce the amount of condition cleansing, which is a good thing.

Preferably making the majority of cleansing Active options as well.

It does however, bring up another issue.

If you force conditions to be more skill based landing, that actually hurts quite a few traits that spams conditions. Traits offer different ways conditions are inflicted. If they get nerfed, how should ArenaNet replace them?

They could be dealt with in a number of ways. They could get a Guardian treatment and become “every x numbered attack applies this condition.” The play/counterplay value being that users of it can figure out when they are about to proc it and then attach it to the skill they’d like to use to apply it, while opponents paying attention will know that their opponent is about to proc it, and react and dodge it appropriately, assuming they didn’t use/waste their dodges on something else.

Another treatment they could get is attaching them to the big skillshot skills. Assuming that these skillshot skills apply unique conditions (let’s say it’s the only way the class can apply burning now is to land this skillshot). Now we have skills traits that are like “the next time you burn/fear/etc (this in the unique condition on the skillshot) an opponent, you also apply x (burning, weakness, etc).”

For other passive procs that aren’t as strong, like the bleed on crit ones, they could be reworked into something like “every x bleeds you apply, you apply another bleed.” The pace of application can then be set by the number of bleed applications it would take for it to be appropriately balanced, and attentive players would be able to take advantage of this and evade/dodge/plan accordingly.

Really though, there is many more ways to deal with it. These are just the first few that came to mind.

More than anything, starting off as a ranger main, and branching out from there, I have to say that as far as cleanses go, I absolutely hate Empathic Bond, and I love the Eles water tree that allows them to cleanse whenever they gain regen, and gain regen by attuning to water. In this sort of example, a good fix for Empathic Bond would be to change it so that it removes x conditions on pet swap.

Just another way to take examples that are already in the game and then apply them as fixes to areas where they are needed.

I dont think the condition damage is the big problem, its the tankines of the builds.

Condition builds need 3 Stats, but they get their duration out of runes and not as armor stat (and huge amounts of duration with food in WvW). The missing stat is in most cases thoughness, which makes them tanky.

In my oppinion conditions are fine, its the armor stats that needs the fix:

• introducing condition duration as an armor stat and lower the value on runes (same % as crit dmg).
• Swap thoughness with vita (on sets with condi dmg as main stat), so rabid will still increase the survivability, but making condition builds vulnearable to burst damage.

These changes would force condition builds to more offensive builds, to deal their damage and would create a rock paper scissors situation. direct-dmg > condi-dmg > tank > direct-dmg…. This doesnt mean, every condition build will be killed by a direct damage build, or every tank will be killed by a condition build, but every build will have their strength and weaknesses.

An the last point: They should also remove those immune to condition damage trait, or atleast change them to reduce condition duration by some % but not by 100% making some builds unkillable by one damage source with only one trait, even if it is a grand-master is ridiculous.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Really? The way I see, there are plenty of things wrong with your post.

At least I took the time to correct them, would like to hear what is wrong in my post

Nova Stiker.8396:

If you believe that using a power based build that spams conditions isn’t ideal, you don’t PvP enough.

I didn’t say, that hybrid builds are bad at all, they can get really strong to be honest. I just think you overrate the extra damage those Conditions do without Condition Damage.

Nova Stiker.8396:

I can tell you the top tier roaming necromancer build is using Berserker Amulets wielding Scepter and Staff.

And because they use a scepter in a berseker build conditions are OP? Probably the use it because every class is faster then a necro,

Nova Stiker.8396:

Dealing as much damage as a zerker ranger with a shortbow but spamming 3 conditions with their auto attack and using fear, death shroud and weakness to safely stay alive.
Making it near impossible to beat 1v1, getting 2 zerker necromancers to focus 1 target? That player is going to blow up, 20 stacks of bleeding, near perma burning and perma Poison.

In which world ~55% Burning Uptime is nearly permanent? (2*3s=6s @ 10s iCD + time for the next crit) The maximum burning duration you can get is +95% in PvP (30% traits, 2*10% sigils, 3*15% Runes). And if the enemy uses a cleanse, the uptime is getting smaller.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Who needs condition damage when you stack bleeding so fast?

Who would use a power build, if conditions are so super mega OP, that every one is crying for a nerf?

unleashed.8679 just stop, you obviously don’t understand the problem.

And I’ve read your post, everything you countered in my argument is not correct. Not a single thing you stated was valid. Simple as that.

In fact, I just gave a good example of why conditions made the Mesmer a no longer viable PvP class and yet you have the nerve to mock me and state conditions are fine.

Prove me wrong on that. Oh wait, you can’t.

Go tPvP more to truly understand the issue that conditions bring into gameplay.

But he is right

Why don’t you stop instead? You think there is a problem, but you obviously don’t even understand the simple mechanic behind conditions.

If everything I wrote is wrong, you still have to believe conditions are unblockable, which is just not true.

The fact that I didn’t comment on the mesmer thing, is simple, I don’t play one. So I can’t prove it. That’s all.
If you think that disqualifies me, because I should know everything in the game, before I post here. I have to say that you shouldn’t start such a thread without knowing how conditions are working.

So once again, please take the time and tell me exactly which points in my post are wrong and why they are wrong.
Everything you wrote is, Zerker builds deal tons of damage because they use conditions, which are unblockable. did I miss anything?

When people say unavoidable I’m sure they mean things like scepter where you get two bleed stacks and poison constantly. Which hits like a truck and can be reapplied and stacked up with itself easy, so combine that with utilities and traits (which alone are deadly)

As to powers influence on this? Well condis tick hard even when not speccing for them, (unclensed that’s 50% hp off a thief mes and ele with signet of spite which only ticks 5% more than scepter auto.) and for example still lasts long and nerfs healing. Other classes are different from my example but in the same boat.

Unlike burst there is not much to avoid, since even if you avoid the major skills you still have them ticking on you. Avoid a back stab or a shatter and your good for 10-15 and your heal can deal with the hits in between.

There is not enough heal or cleanse to deal with this stuff in between major skills, and the builds are inherently tanky with Regen or health pools or have a lot of things like CC to capitalize on.

Conditions profit from a single attribute: condition damage. In contrast, powerbuilds need power, precision and critical damage to work. This disparity allows condition builds to alllocate their stats to defensive attributes, while maintaining their damage output.

Moreover, there’s no attribute that reduces incoming condition damage. In contrast, power builds only deal a fraction of the total damage, because armor and protection mitigate tons of direct damage.

Before the game was released Devs exposed their idea of the trinity based on roles not on specific classes. This trinity was composed by dps, support, control.
Now we have raw damage → dps (every one can provide this)
Heals → support (mostly self provided here, cause since there arent dedicated healers anymore everyone is supporting moslty himself)
Conditions → dps and control …. this is the wrong part. Conditions shot NOT provide a real DPS, they should be an attrition tool, and mainly they should fill the control role: immobilize, blind, cripple, chill, poison, weakness.
The fact that we can provide a condition “burst” its totally kitten WRONG.
The mess we have now is due to the lack of defined roles.

We should split damaging conditions and control conditions for such a discussion.

Stuff like burning or bleeding should be just an added effect to some skills, like skills that use fire, flames, explosions, its intuitive that they might set the target on fire, but this should be a fixed value, not influenced by a stat.
Cond dmg was a bad idea.

Weird i can’t ever find player bad enough who die if i just spam auto attack. If i wanna kill somebody i need to land all of my skills and still enemy doesn’t die fast.

cuge.5398:

Stuff like burning or bleeding should be just an added effect to some skills, like skills that use fire, flames, explosions, its intuitive that they might set the target on fire, but this should be a fixed value, not influenced by a stat.
Cond dmg was a bad idea.

So you only want to see direct damage and tank hitting each other? that would be absolutely no fun. Conditions are needed and they are fine the way they work right now.

There are some discussable skills and build, but stop complaining about condition damage beeing bad in total.

Every other game i played didnt have conditions, or at least they were not working this way, and it was working fine on that side. Conditions are a bad design side.
Even with no conditions you can kill a bunker… thats totally not a problem.

You probably shouldn’t switched from hello kitty online to GW2.

Condition damage is a common damage type in several games. They probably call i Dot (damage over time) or what ever there. but the the mechanic is the same

unleashed.8679:

Condition damage is a common damage type in several games.

And?
Because some games did a vaguely comparable thing well… what??

GW2 condi’s are setup ENTIRELY different than other games.
They have their own dmg stat.
There is no dmg mitigation for them.
They force hardcounters, and require hardcounters alone to mitigate (cleansing).
They leave no control over which condi is removed with condi removal.
They can and are encouraged to be the only source of dmg on a spec.
They are easier to apply, on lower CDs and deal more dmg (albeit not in an instant) than physical attacks.

That’s not unworkable.
But it is VERY, VERY, VERY tough to make work well.
Anet hasn’t shown a lick of the capabilities needed to pull it off

unleashed.8679:

Condition damage is a common damage type in several games. They probably call i Dot (damage over time) or what ever there. but the the mechanic is the same

Yeh there were dots but thats completely different from gw2 conditions as Gareth stated. Dots usually doesnt scale up with a stat, or if they do, they get a little % increment. Ad most important, they arent so much overwhelming with their low to non existant CDs, causing a constant re application.

unleashed.8679:

You probably shouldn’t switched from hello kitty online to GW2.

get lost…seriously.

Cross posting from https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/How-would-you-improve-sPvP/page/2#post3253361 my rough take on what I’d like to see for conditions is this;

" – more importance of individual conditions, more importance of de-buffs, less spam, condition management (covering from cleanse ect) more important, less full condi clear, no/much less rng application and removal.
Condi builds should have high up time on probably just 1 damaging condition and 1 de-buff, with potential to build for ‘spikes’ of 1-2 more. De-buffs should be as much a reason to run a condi comp as damage, fitting better the ‘pressure’ role they seem to make most scene in.
More team play required to achieve ‘burst’ condi damage seen currently (power too for that matter), so a ‘burn comp’ might involve and ele and engi both stacking long duration burns (one would not be enough for a fast kill) on a target, before they and team mates apply any non burn conditions they have available repeatedly in order to try and insure the burn is not removed (and no one apples burn again unless it gets cleared somehow, it’s last on 1st off right?).
Chill or weakness builds should be scary things, and something your team has to stratagize to deal with. The order you and you team apply conditions should matter due to covering important ones from cleanses, and no one should have it all (or even half of it)."

Edit – if I want to beat a cleansing ire warrior on the BM ranger build I play a lot, one of my best chances is through keeping them poisoned. They can remove 3 condis regularly, so in order for me to do this I 1st have to get the poison on (seppent strike + stalkers srike) and then cover it with 3 more; icey pounce (chill), crippling talon (criple + bleed) and spam sword chain (keep refreshing cripple). This kind of play being required across far more builds/match ups would be good.

Acandis.3250:

Solid breakdown. Though this in an inherent problem with the mechanics of the game and the way many of the traits have been implemented. In order to fully fix the problem, the entirety of the following would have to be reworked:

• Passive application of conditions
• Passive removal of conditions
• Type of conditions available to each class
• Amount of condition application available to each class

ANet is going the wrong way by giving the wrong classes more access to condition removal, rather than notching down conditions in every other class.

Agreed, condition removal is getting crazy, I think what should be done is toning down the access to conditions AND condition removal. as well as access, any crit condi traits should be removed/revised as this bypasses the new “design intent”. I also believe that the remaining condition removal should be updated on AoE in order to add to group collaboration. Condition application on autoattacks should be completely removed, and power damage scaled back on auto’s as well.

I think some of the condition problems are mechanically to do with more of the game than just the conditions themselves.

The game is built around dodge rolling and watching for animations, there are no cast bars.
Large damage direct attack skills have clear animations, you can dodge these to avoid significant damage.
But, there are no specific high cooldown skills that contain lots of condition damage and so there are no key skills to dodge in the same way.

Take a Power vs Condi fight.

Typically this will also be Melee vs Ranged.

Now the condi build is ranged, most of his skills aren’t aimed, they automatically hit the target and some also have no travel time like the Necro Scepter.

So the condi class can focus most of his attention on watching the enemy melee player and be ready to dodge the key damage skills to avoid his damage or kite him. All the while pushing his own ranged attack skills, most of which apply some kind of damage or control condition which is all good as the idea is just to keep applying conditions till his enemy is dead. The result is ranged skill spamming.

The melee power build on the other hand is at a disadvantage.

The melee needs to get in range, then he needs to stay on top of his target to keep applying damage at 130 range, he also needs to look down at his UI constantly to look at what conditions he has and micro-manage his condition removal while attempting to remove the damaging conditions rather than all the control conditions that are stacked on top of the damage. He can’t really dodge anything specific from the condi attacker as the conditions come constantly from all attacks especially trait procs, a little at a time building up steadily over time.

So the problem we have is ranged, no UI management who can focus all their attention on watching for skills to dodge.

Vs

Melee – needs to split his focus between the player to stay in range and adapt to his movements and also watch the UI to micro-manage his condition removal + nothing specific to try and dodge.

This flaw in the game mechanics becomes exacerbated when in a fight against two players ~ a condi build and a power build, your attention is split all over the place trying to micro-manage your condi removal by looking down at the UI while also trying to watch all the action to dodge the key direct damage skills.

Conditions have become something that’s applied far too often from too many sources. Every fight has conditions all over the targets, especially in AoE.
This shifts too much focus away from the action on screen and turns it into a UI micro-managing game of condition removal.

This flaw needs to be sorted by drastically reducing how often conditions are applied. (Removing auto-attack condi’s. Auto-attack damage should be Power based).
Reducing all the condition removal.
Removing all passive proc conditions.
Removing all passive condition removal.

Then significantly increasing the potency of conditions so that they become short term high damage with a high cooldown and clear animation or short term key control conditions.

This is spam to win meta…we all know..that’s why i’m not going tpvp after ladder reset until it’s fixed (On 10 dec maybe)…going in just to be spammed with skilles random kitten all the time? No thanks…see you after condition and braindead spam nerf..

Why not change how toughness works to a flat base of damage reduction and equal condition damage decrease or change it to condition duration decrease so 30% damage reduction with toughness would be also 30% damage reduction from conditions or they could just bring in another stat like willpower that counters condi damage?

Even putting more hard counters to conditions doesnt solve the main problem: they can be spammed over and over, without really careing of which cooldowns you are wasting.

Pro tip is to spam skills even if you use power build. You do much more damage this way.

Junkpile.7439:

Pro tip is to spam skills even if you use power build. You do much more damage this way.

90% of the time… no.
Certain skills, sure, you want to use right around CD, but that is far from the vast majority.

You might get away spam on a S/D thief or shatter or phantasm mes, but not on most phys dmg specs… at least if your fighting decent enemies (against scrubs, yeah spam will get you by).

When i play power necro i spam axe 1 and life blast whole time. 3k crits whole time and can take much more damage than condi necro.

The only power build that can LOL aoe faceroll-spam like necro/engi/mesmer/ranger do with condis is hambow warrior, and we all know what is happening to them.

Power ele is dead, shortbow thief is dead(cya trick shot), power grenade engi is dead, GS warrior has ceased to be viable, and so on.

Anet seems to think just because condi vomit doesn’t look as flashy it can’t be OP. Looks like every team will just be required to run 2-3 team cleansers

I never really thought of the attention issue for power classes vs. condition classes, but that’s mostly because when I run conditions I prefer the more terribad melee condition builds. Mainhand Sword Warrior needs to consistently land its burst and/or consistently apply cripple to stay in range. Deathblossom Thieves have to manage their dodges along with the opponent’s response.

It would also explain why many of the hard counters for conditions coming out (Berserker Stance’s change, upcoming Diamond Skin, etc.) seem designed on giving you a reprieve from your opponent’s spam. That said, I still like Diamond Skin because of the need to keep your health high. It won’t be the be-end-all in team fights and may push out Ranger home bunkers.

Wouldn’t the active nature of Cleansing Ire also be better then? The only issue would be from the Longbow’s burst skill.

And you have to worry about making condition duration too short. If they’re too short and high powered then they might as well be Power burst builds. That’s probably the reason why ANet is moving in the direction they’re going because the opposite would just be another flavor of Power.

whats wrong? conditions meant to dot. but with condition on autoattacks and not on skills with recharge there is no down-side of applying conditions.

best change would be like gw1:
- no condition on autoattack.
- more and bigger conditions on other skills with a cooldown
- less condition removal

so it would be tactical to use the skills to apply or remove conditions and less spamy. and that crap like cleansing ire and diamond skin would no be needed.