Guild Wars 2

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

We are talking about thieves kept as pets in pvp and getting nerfed (directly/indirectly) across the board due to “+1 role.” So actually mesmers are really good argument in this very discussions since they fill exact SAME role and even use similar mechanics yet they can do so much more and somehow it is ok!??? Why can’t i compare those 2 classes? Why? Give me good reason?

Well frankly, thieves are ok in vacuum. Problem starts when other classes get in the picture. There were so many dmg buff, defensive buffs and passive thrown to them (and nerfs to thief mechanics, not to mention multiple brainless revealed spells) that thieves were simply left behind as far as their combat capability goes. The question is ofc which is easier: nerf passives from other classes and add higher risk/reward correlation (aka you actually have to work for your wins and not just mash face against keyboard) or give thieves more dmg/passives etc. (which tbh would be bad idea s it would just lead to more powercreep).

Dahkeus.8243:

Thief is amazing in conquest, but only if you play to its strengths, which is generally very different from other classes. Thieves excel at decapping undefended points with their unparalleled mobility and +1ing even fights to quickly turn the tide.

Also rez people with that shadowart trait line, stealth group, group burst

I admit, reading all the statement you guys put in is amusing and some of you has a point though i do not play on the top of the top of the top of the food chain but it keeps me wondering which Region you people are playing that you guys still lacking knowledge in terms of Thieving in Conquest.

Oh and didn’t the pvp community driven tournament brief you on how to play your role in a teambased game? it seem they set their bars into low standard and all they care is the succesion of their own agenda.

Cynz.9437:

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

We are talking about thieves kept as pets in pvp and getting nerfed (directly/indirectly) across the board due to “+1 role.” So actually mesmers are really good argument in this very discussions since they fill exact SAME role and even use similar mechanics yet they can do so much more and somehow it is ok!??? Why can’t i compare those 2 classes? Why? Give me good reason?

Well frankly, thieves are ok in vacuum. Problem starts when other classes get in the picture. There were so many dmg buff, defensive buffs and passive thrown to them (and nerfs to thief mechanics, not to mention multiple brainless revealed spells) that thieves were simply left behind as far as their combat capability goes. The question is ofc which is easier: nerf passives from other classes and add higher risk/reward correlation (aka you actually have to work for your wins and not just mash face against keyboard) or give thieves more dmg/passives etc. (which tbh would be bad idea s it would just lead to more powercreep).

You are using your perception of mesmers position to argument against if thieves are viable. I don’t agree on the term, that you can compare them – if you can line up some way to do it, then go ahead – it is your job, not mine.
If it is just, that they both burst from stealth, and they both have ports, then we both know, that there a gazillion “but’s” in that argument. So far I haven’t seen anyone that had any success in comparing them.

So far, there is only one build with reveal btw? Isn’t it just engineer, that run with it at times?

Should be noted, that I am not defending any class/specc – I would just like to avoid the versions of classes that are immortal and push other classes out – that goes for thieves as well.

Point is mesmers fill exactly same role yet it is thieves that should be pingeonholed into pet state where mesmers aren’t. And as argument everyone is using is that thieve’s role is to +1 but as i said that argument is completely useless because mesmers exist.

Glint from rev has aoe reveal on 20 sec CD, yes engis have reveal, rangers also have sick em (i actually faced quite few rangers using it). Taunt doesn’t directly reveal you but it forces you into reveal~

MarauderShields.6830:

Dahkeus.8243:

Thief is amazing in conquest, but only if you play to its strengths, which is generally very different from other classes. Thieves excel at decapping undefended points with their unparalleled mobility and +1ing even fights to quickly turn the tide.

If you try to 1 v 1 or just jump in team fights from the start, you’ll find PvP to be an uphill battle and it will likely be very frustrating.

“This half-dead octogenarian is amazing at professional football, guys! It’s just that you have to play to his strengths, like getting water bottles for the active teamplayers, collect dirty towels after the rest of the team showers etc. instead of actually letting him play the game. And every team has someone who does this kind of stuff, therefore, he must be the best player on the team!”

Very creative analogy….but doesn’t fit at all.

It’s more like:
Poor Wayne Gretzky. He’s such a small little hockey player. He can’t check or hit nearly as well as anyone else and really shouldn’t engage in any fights. He can only skate fast and shoot well. How will he ever be good in hockey?!?

Dahkeus.8243:

MarauderShields.6830:

Dahkeus.8243:

Thief is amazing in conquest, but only if you play to its strengths, which is generally very different from other classes. Thieves excel at decapping undefended points with their unparalleled mobility and +1ing even fights to quickly turn the tide.

If you try to 1 v 1 or just jump in team fights from the start, you’ll find PvP to be an uphill battle and it will likely be very frustrating.

“This half-dead octogenarian is amazing at professional football, guys! It’s just that you have to play to his strengths, like getting water bottles for the active teamplayers, collect dirty towels after the rest of the team showers etc. instead of actually letting him play the game. And every team has someone who does this kind of stuff, therefore, he must be the best player on the team!”

Very creative analogy….but doesn’t fit at all.

It’s more like:
Poor Wayne Gretzky. He’s such a small little hockey player. He can’t check or hit nearly as well as anyone else and really shouldn’t engage in any fights. He can only skate fast and shoot well. How will he ever be good in hockey?!?

Devs will break his arms if he ever dares to score anything :P

What I’m seeing here is that some players want alternative roles for thieves other than their current. What I’m not seeing is suggestions for that. However, I will add that the Daredevil seems to be an attempt to include a new role for a thief. If upset thief players are truly honest about wanting their class to perform better in pvp and not be OP, then they should focus their efforts on getting adjustments to the Daredevil specialty and how it interacts with the current thief skills and traits. The beta tests are the perfect opportunities for this. Making vague complaints about how thieves are underpowered and other classes are OP, is not going to make the thief any better.

DaShi.1368:

What I’m seeing here is that some players want alternative roles for thieves other than their current. What I’m not seeing is suggestions for that. However, I will add that the Daredevil seems to be an attempt to include a new role for a thief. If upset thief players are truly honest about wanting their class to perform better in pvp and not be OP, then they should focus their efforts on getting adjustments to the Daredevil specialty and how it interacts with the current thief skills and traits. The beta tests are the perfect opportunities for this. Making vague complaints about how thieves are underpowered and other classes are OP, is not going to make the thief any better.

Um there are countless threads with suggestions (including team support changes) that you could probably make book off. You know what happend? After 3 years of posts they finally managed to move LR from minor trait. THAT IS it.

Drd is total garbage.

Cynz.9437:

Point is mesmers fill exactly same role yet it is thieves that should be pingeonholed into pet state where mesmers aren’t. And as argument everyone is using is that thieve’s role is to +1 but as i said that argument is completely useless because mesmers exist.

Glint from rev has aoe reveal on 20 sec CD, yes engis have reveal, rangers also have sick em (i actually faced quite few rangers using it). Taunt doesn’t directly reveal you but it forces you into reveal~

There are a lot of classes that should fit the same role. Yet some classes exclude other classes in different ways. I can name you a dozen cases where that is the case, and yet we focus on one pair – that in itself is interesting.

I find, that mesmers and thieves work in a very different way. Where many of mesmers abilities are conditional, I find there are fewer restrictions on the thief-version. That is my opinion, and in my opinion, that is one of the reasons why thief is still better at decapping and +1. When you talk about a “role” you talk about it, as if it is some fixed thing with very defined borders, but imo that is not the correct image. That is why we disagree.

And again: I have no agenda, when it comes to thieves vs mesmers. I might even roll thief in HoT, since I am no fan of shatter-builds. I would btw not dismiss Daredevil as S/D (or even D/D?) – but I guess we will see in due time.

PS: Yeah, that reveal from Herald (Gaze of Darkness) does seem a bit steep. And another detail: I think almost every class have the feeling, that something is being neglected – not to say you are in the wrong in feeling so, more to say, that you are not alone in the boat

Thief main here.
So, whilst I’m not some pro PvPer by any means, I do know what “role” I have and I’m able to carry out that “role” pretty well. So please, no “l2p” in response to my comment.
I’d like to point out that Thieves are NOT asking to be A tier again, like DD ele is right now. That’s silly and if any Thieves ARE asking for that then just ignore them, I’m not interested in being stupid powerful.
However, every single time I read discussions like this about the +1 and decap-bot role that Thief has been, undeniably, FORCED into in PvP, I can’t help but sense some hypocrisy.
I’d love for any of the various Ele, Necro, Guardian, etc players here that are defending the current state of Thief to be assigned the same role as us for just a single day and see if you enjoy that experience, feel rewarded and engaged in the match, and to see how long it takes for you to close your game clients and create topics such as this. I’d love for you to experience the feeling of being flamed at by your teammates for attempting to 1v1 or contest a point without being handheld. I’d love for you to know how it feels to aimlessly run around the maps, standing in a circle for a couple of seconds and then moving onto the next circle to do the exact same for the entirety of the match, and occasionally fitting in the odd revive and stomp that your teammate has provided for you. To spend the whole game effectively running away from fights because you know that no matter how well you play, you’re the only player in your team that just cannot hold your own, and that you’re the most expendable player because there are other professions on the team that can fulfill your role if needs-be.
If you had that experience playing as an ele or a necro or whatever else, I can almost guarantee that the majority of you would feel far from satisfied with the viability of your profession. It’s really easy to sit here and say that Thief should be totally fine with the way they HAVE to play in PvP when your own favourite profession is suffering from none of the same issues.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Thief main here.
So, whilst I’m not some pro PvPer by any means, I do know what “role” I have and I’m able to carry out that “role” pretty well. So please, no “l2p” in response to my comment.
I’d like to point out that Thieves are NOT asking to be A tier again, like DD ele is right now. That’s silly and if any Thieves ARE asking for that then just ignore them, I’m not interested in being stupid powerful.
However, every single time I read discussions like this about the +1 and decap-bot role that Thief has been, undeniably, FORCED into in PvP, I can’t help but sense some hypocrisy.
I’d love for any of the various Ele, Necro, Guardian, etc players here that are defending the current state of Thief to be assigned the same role as us for just a single day and see if you enjoy that experience, feel rewarded and engaged in the match, and to see how long it takes for you to close your game clients and create topics such as this. I’d love for you to experience the feeling of being flamed at by your teammates for attempting to 1v1 or contest a point without being handheld. I’d love for you to know how it feels to aimlessly run around the maps, standing in a circle for a couple of seconds and then moving onto the next circle to do the exact same for the entirety of the match, and occasionally fitting in the odd revive and stomp that your teammate has provided for you. To spend the whole game effectively running away from fights because you know that no matter how well you play, you’re the only player in your team that just cannot hold your own, and that you’re the most expendable player because there are other professions on the team that can fulfill your role if needs-be.
If you had that experience playing as an ele or a necro or whatever else, I can almost guarantee that the majority of you would feel far from satisfied with the viability of your profession. It’s really easy to sit here and say that Thief should be totally fine with the way they HAVE to play in PvP when your own favourite profession is suffering from none of the same issues.

Couldn’t say this better.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Thief main here.
So, whilst I’m not some pro PvPer by any means, I do know what “role” I have and I’m able to carry out that “role” pretty well. So please, no “l2p” in response to my comment.
I’d like to point out that Thieves are NOT asking to be A tier again, like DD ele is right now. That’s silly and if any Thieves ARE asking for that then just ignore them, I’m not interested in being stupid powerful.
However, every single time I read discussions like this about the +1 and decap-bot role that Thief has been, undeniably, FORCED into in PvP, I can’t help but sense some hypocrisy.
I’d love for any of the various Ele, Necro, Guardian, etc players here that are defending the current state of Thief to be assigned the same role as us for just a single day and see if you enjoy that experience, feel rewarded and engaged in the match, and to see how long it takes for you to close your game clients and create topics such as this. I’d love for you to experience the feeling of being flamed at by your teammates for attempting to 1v1 or contest a point without being handheld. I’d love for you to know how it feels to aimlessly run around the maps, standing in a circle for a couple of seconds and then moving onto the next circle to do the exact same for the entirety of the match, and occasionally fitting in the odd revive and stomp that your teammate has provided for you. To spend the whole game effectively running away from fights because you know that no matter how well you play, you’re the only player in your team that just cannot hold your own, and that you’re the most expendable player because there are other professions on the team that can fulfill your role if needs-be.
If you had that experience playing as an ele or a necro or whatever else, I can almost guarantee that the majority of you would feel far from satisfied with the viability of your profession. It’s really easy to sit here and say that Thief should be totally fine with the way they HAVE to play in PvP when your own favourite profession is suffering from none of the same issues.

By no means a pro pvp neither, but have it occurred to you, that some have actually experienced the very same thing DUE to thieves in the past? At least you HAVE a role – more than some of us had in the past …. due to fx thieves.
But two wrongs doesn’t make a right, so let us leave it at that. I can understand your frustration, but I have to ask:
Where do you see other classes, when thieves get both the best mobility (imo) and being able to 1vs1?

I think the bigger picture (seeing it from the opponents pov) is relevant – don’t you? That is what you ask of us as well.

Poxxia.1547:

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Thief main here.
So, whilst I’m not some pro PvPer by any means, I do know what “role” I have and I’m able to carry out that “role” pretty well. So please, no “l2p” in response to my comment.
I’d like to point out that Thieves are NOT asking to be A tier again, like DD ele is right now. That’s silly and if any Thieves ARE asking for that then just ignore them, I’m not interested in being stupid powerful.
However, every single time I read discussions like this about the +1 and decap-bot role that Thief has been, undeniably, FORCED into in PvP, I can’t help but sense some hypocrisy.
I’d love for any of the various Ele, Necro, Guardian, etc players here that are defending the current state of Thief to be assigned the same role as us for just a single day and see if you enjoy that experience, feel rewarded and engaged in the match, and to see how long it takes for you to close your game clients and create topics such as this. I’d love for you to experience the feeling of being flamed at by your teammates for attempting to 1v1 or contest a point without being handheld. I’d love for you to know how it feels to aimlessly run around the maps, standing in a circle for a couple of seconds and then moving onto the next circle to do the exact same for the entirety of the match, and occasionally fitting in the odd revive and stomp that your teammate has provided for you. To spend the whole game effectively running away from fights because you know that no matter how well you play, you’re the only player in your team that just cannot hold your own, and that you’re the most expendable player because there are other professions on the team that can fulfill your role if needs-be.
If you had that experience playing as an ele or a necro or whatever else, I can almost guarantee that the majority of you would feel far from satisfied with the viability of your profession. It’s really easy to sit here and say that Thief should be totally fine with the way they HAVE to play in PvP when your own favourite profession is suffering from none of the same issues.

By no means a pro pvp neither, but have it occurred to you, that some have actually experienced the very same thing DUE to thieves in the past? At least you HAVE a role – more than some of us had in the past …. due to fx thieves.
But two wrongs doesn’t make a right, so let us leave it at that. I can understand your frustration, but I have to ask:
Where do you see other classes, when thieves get both the best mobility (imo) and being able to 1vs1?

I think the bigger picture (seeing it from the opponents pov) is relevant – don’t you? That is what you ask of us as well.

Not every thief build carries combat mobility sure we all use SB but when trying to build for something else it usually fails like sacrificing burst for more in battle time, for a while I noticed venom and condi thieves in PvP not anymore someone thinks they did a good job. Thief always had the same role it just became more specific.

Poxxia.1547:

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Thief main here.
So, whilst I’m not some pro PvPer by any means, I do know what “role” I have and I’m able to carry out that “role” pretty well. So please, no “l2p” in response to my comment.
I’d like to point out that Thieves are NOT asking to be A tier again, like DD ele is right now. That’s silly and if any Thieves ARE asking for that then just ignore them, I’m not interested in being stupid powerful.
However, every single time I read discussions like this about the +1 and decap-bot role that Thief has been, undeniably, FORCED into in PvP, I can’t help but sense some hypocrisy.
I’d love for any of the various Ele, Necro, Guardian, etc players here that are defending the current state of Thief to be assigned the same role as us for just a single day and see if you enjoy that experience, feel rewarded and engaged in the match, and to see how long it takes for you to close your game clients and create topics such as this. I’d love for you to experience the feeling of being flamed at by your teammates for attempting to 1v1 or contest a point without being handheld. I’d love for you to know how it feels to aimlessly run around the maps, standing in a circle for a couple of seconds and then moving onto the next circle to do the exact same for the entirety of the match, and occasionally fitting in the odd revive and stomp that your teammate has provided for you. To spend the whole game effectively running away from fights because you know that no matter how well you play, you’re the only player in your team that just cannot hold your own, and that you’re the most expendable player because there are other professions on the team that can fulfill your role if needs-be.
If you had that experience playing as an ele or a necro or whatever else, I can almost guarantee that the majority of you would feel far from satisfied with the viability of your profession. It’s really easy to sit here and say that Thief should be totally fine with the way they HAVE to play in PvP when your own favourite profession is suffering from none of the same issues.

By no means a pro pvp neither, but have it occurred to you, that some have actually experienced the very same thing DUE to thieves in the past? At least you HAVE a role – more than some of us had in the past …. due to fx thieves.
But two wrongs doesn’t make a right, so let us leave it at that. I can understand your frustration, but I have to ask:
Where do you see other classes, when thieves get both the best mobility (imo) and being able to 1vs1?

I think the bigger picture (seeing it from the opponents pov) is relevant – don’t you? That is what you ask of us as well.

Yeah I agree, and as I said before, I have absolutely no wish for Thieves to be THAT powerful. I just want to feel important, and to be able to do what alot of the other professions can do; fill multiple, meaningful roles. Elementalists and Guardians have arguably the most important role which is being able to contest and defend a point from not only one but serveral attackers. Others are invaluable during a teamfight, providing great team support whilst also providing decent damage output thats actually threatening to decent players. Eles, Guards, Warriors, Rangers, etc… they can all decap. They can all +1. The ONLY thing setting Thief aside in that regard is SB giving them SLIGHTLY more mobility (and the difference is hardly large enough for a Thief to be the only viable profession to fill out that role). Have you ever been in a team where there is no Thief and heard people complain about it? I’m assuming not, it’s hardly a game-changer because as long as you have an Ele or a Mesmer, you still have decent mobility on your team, you just get the added bonus of being able to fill out other roles on top of that.
Also, I think it’s naiive to say Thief isn’t allowed to have both mobility and 1v1 capabilities otherwise it’ll be OP or some kitten like that, because you’re completely ignoring the obvious weaknesses that they have had and will probably always have which is the complete lack of active defenses. If a Thief makes a mistake he’s dead, simple as that. To compensate for that they NEED good damage, because being a glass-cannon profession that doesn’t have an even half decent cannon makes for a weak profession. It’s not like we’re asking for an iWin button every time we see someone solo on a point. I just don’t want every profession to have an iWin button when they see ME on a point.

Thief is still op. Those saying not just used to get even more carried than currently by the class. So their skill level is lower than their mmr. As in their mmr should be lower based on their skill, so if thief goes from very op to just op then they think its hard.

Thief is still way more op than mesmer for example. Mesmer is just judged by lower standards than thief. Thieves expect to be op. Most other classes base their balance expectations around being balanced.

Thief is second only to ele in terms of opness

Apolo.5942:

dont suck? thief can burst down anyone from stealth and from 100 to 0 in a split second.

Pure ignorance.

Nah, just re-roll Herald or Chronomancer. Because why not? If I can get away with easy mechanics where I can do 10k damage as I spam evades, why should I put myself at a disadvantage?

At least Daredevil doesn’t deal 10k damage when it’s dodging. At least Berserker doesn’t spam evades while it’s trying to land it’s CC. At least Reaper can’t get invulnerabilities and have high risk high reward casting times.

The fact remains if you are losing 1v1 to a thief it’s a complete l2p issue. If a player in tournament play kept failing to hold a point vs a single thief they’d get kicked off the team.

As a GW2 player I feel no matter what class I’m on if I go 1v1 someone on point the winner should be determined by skillfull play. That is not an option for thieves UNLESS the person fighting the thief is REALLY REALLY bad.

Is asking to be able to reliably win a side point if your better than the person standing on it wrong? No.

Though lots of people who are biased against thieves will adamantly argue to keep thieves unable to do so. These are the failed to learn population and one day hopefully anet will stop listening to them.

runeblade.7514:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

runeblade.7514:

Your job is to burst down squishies and important targets. You are an assassin that ganks players. You help your friends by ambushing your targets. You do not 1v1. You have no need to.

Didn’t Arenanet market “no role-locking” as a selling point of their game? A thief specced for 1v1ing should be able to 1v1. The current "No, even if you’re dps you dont get to skirmish, go sit on the point until the team gets back or “plus 1 because thats what you do” " is atrocious and I refuse to agree with the current consensus that this is fine.

How is D/P role-locking? You can 1v1 if you want. You can skirmish if you want. But +1 is the best role for the thief that assassinate targets. That is like calling Warriors role-locking because they aren’t as good as thief in +1.

I didnt say anything about d/p.

I said:

“No, even if you’re dps you dont get to skirmish, go sit on the point until the team gets back or “plus 1 because thats what you do”

Even thieves specced for skirmishing or 1v1s cannot do that because they have no sustain.

Their only sustain comes from them not doing anything and sitting in stealth (where players probably wouldnt hit you anyway unless aoe, but thats another argument entirely)

I dont know what you’re talking about, but my argument is simply: No, thieves cannot skirmish, No, thieves cannot 1v1, and players are finding issue with thieves that want to do these things.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Thief is still op. Those saying not just used to get even more carried than currently by the class. So their skill level is lower than their mmr. As in their mmr should be lower based on their skill, so if thief goes from very op to just op then they think its hard.

Thief is still way more op than mesmer for example. Mesmer is just judged by lower standards than thief. Thieves expect to be op. Most other classes base their balance expectations around being balanced.

Thief is second only to ele in terms of opness

I really, really hope you’re trolling. If you think Thief is OP, you’re either new to the game or you’re not very good.
And your last statement is total garbage, I’m a Thief and do I want to be OP? No, as I’ve already stated. I fully expect to be balanced, which currently we are not. I don’t by any means expect to be, or even want to be, OP. I’ve had enough of people QQing constantly about Thieves, regardless of how powerful they are, so being OP would bother me just as much as being UP.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Thief is still op.

Mesmer is just judged by lower standards than thief. Thieves expect to be op.

Thief is second only to ele in terms of opness

Can I be frank?

you’re spouting garbage.

EDIT: Never mind, he’s doing it on purpose.

kolompi.1287:

Thieves are not unhappy about being a +1 class, they are unhappy about not being able to smack the living hell out of everyone but the tankiest builds. If they would look at the big picture objectively they would realize that they are not weak just that the playing field has been leveled out a bit.

Also garbage. Tired of people on the outside looking in trying to tell me how I feel.

I have no sustain.

Every other class got a dps boost.

Its painfully simple.

I dont care how long the kitten fight takes or whether or not I do a little or a lot of damage to a specific build. I need to be able to sustain long enough to make either leaving or winning an option.

Right now I can do neither.

EDIT: I want to tack on that I find the fact that every other dev is providing dps increases for the respective classes they oversee, but for the most part thieves are getting clunky ways to avoid that damage without any baseline sustain or baseline methods to deal with it.

The old feline grace should have been baseline. Fleet shadow should be baseline. Instead we got the former avenue crippled and the latter in a line that nobody wants to take because it’s borderline useless when considered practically.

I still need to look at DD. It’s so clunky atm though that I wont use it if it’s like that at release.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Also garbage. Tired of people on the outside looking in trying to tell me how I feel.

I have no sustain.

Every other class got a dps boost.

Its painfully simple.

I dont care how long the kitten fight takes or whether or not I do a little or a lot of damage to a specific build. I need to be able to sustain long enough to make either leaving or winning an option.

Right now I can do neither.

EDIT: I want to tack on that I find the fact that every other dev is providing dps increases for the respective classes they oversee, but for the most part thieves are getting clunky ways to avoid that damage without any baseline sustain or baseline methods to deal with it.

The old feline grace should have been baseline. Fleet shadow should be baseline. Instead we got the former avenue crippled and the latter in a line that nobody wants to take because it’s borderline useless when considered practically.

I

Shadow arts d/p have a ton of sustain. Stealth up, shadowstep away, dodge away, etc.

I hardly ever die on my d/p thief unless I didn’t see a zerg on me. Even then, I have a high chance of getting away. If I was on any other class, except mesmers, I would probably fail hard in getting away.

yeah you are being very useful to team by camping stealth half of the match~

runeblade.7514:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Also garbage. Tired of people on the outside looking in trying to tell me how I feel.

I have no sustain.

Every other class got a dps boost.

Its painfully simple.

I dont care how long the kitten fight takes or whether or not I do a little or a lot of damage to a specific build. I need to be able to sustain long enough to make either leaving or winning an option.

Right now I can do neither.

EDIT: I want to tack on that I find the fact that every other dev is providing dps increases for the respective classes they oversee, but for the most part thieves are getting clunky ways to avoid that damage without any baseline sustain or baseline methods to deal with it.

The old feline grace should have been baseline. Fleet shadow should be baseline. Instead we got the former avenue crippled and the latter in a line that nobody wants to take because it’s borderline useless when considered practically.

I

Shadow arts d/p have a ton of sustain. Stealth up, shadowstep away, dodge away, etc.

I hardly ever die on my d/p thief unless I didn’t see a zerg on me. Even then, I have a high chance of getting away. If I was on any other class, except mesmers, I would probably fail hard in getting away.

Er… no offense, but I don’t consider being good at running away as having “a ton of sustain”. Sustain is not running away. Sustain is being able to stay in a fight and keep yourself alive. The fact you refer to sustain on a Thief as simply running away is EXACTLY the problem.
So yeah, I mean it’s all good guys, Thief doesn’t need buffing at all because AT LEAST they’re good at running and kitten. I mean, being able to do anything other than being able to run pretty quick would be totally unfair to all those poor D/D eles and Bunker Guards and signet Necros running around right now. Sorry we were so selfish and unreasonable. How dare we ask that we can actually fight you.

Sagat.3285:

Not every thief build carries combat mobility sure we all use SB but when trying to build for something else it usually fails like sacrificing burst for more in battle time, for a while I noticed venom and condi thieves in PvP not anymore someone thinks they did a good job. Thief always had the same role it just became more specific.

Fair enough. I haven’t seen condi-thieves (be that unicorn or p/d) for a long time neither. Nor venomshare for that matter. I quite agree on the role being more specific – but I find that to be balanced. Perhaps unlike you?
I would hate that thieves have the mobility they have now, the slipperiness, the burst and on top the ability to 1vs1 … in one build. That would imo be OTT. If thieves had multiple ways to function but in different builds, there would be reason to envy them their diversity. Nothing more.

Poxxia.1547:

Sagat.3285:

Not every thief build carries combat mobility sure we all use SB but when trying to build for something else it usually fails like sacrificing burst for more in battle time, for a while I noticed venom and condi thieves in PvP not anymore someone thinks they did a good job. Thief always had the same role it just became more specific.

Fair enough. I haven’t seen condi-thieves (be that unicorn or p/d) for a long time neither. Nor venomshare for that matter. I quite agree on the role being more specific – but I find that to be balanced. Perhaps unlike you?
I would hate that thieves have the mobility they have now, the slipperiness, the burst and on top the ability to 1vs1 … in one build. That would imo be OTT. If thieves had multiple ways to function but in different builds, there would be reason to envy them their diversity. Nothing more.

You confused me. I stated when we are trying to do trade-off it’s not worth it at all how is trying to do that not balanced? “He who knows his name” think he did a good job and only revealed himself for the brief fanboyish happy times of DD. Thief is the new necro.

Poxxia.1547:

Sagat.3285:

Not every thief build carries combat mobility sure we all use SB but when trying to build for something else it usually fails like sacrificing burst for more in battle time, for a while I noticed venom and condi thieves in PvP not anymore someone thinks they did a good job. Thief always had the same role it just became more specific.

Fair enough. I haven’t seen condi-thieves (be that unicorn or p/d) for a long time neither. Nor venomshare for that matter. I quite agree on the role being more specific – but I find that to be balanced. Perhaps unlike you?
I would hate that thieves have the mobility they have now, the slipperiness, the burst and on top the ability to 1vs1 … in one build. That would imo be OTT. If thieves had multiple ways to function but in different builds, there would be reason to envy them their diversity. Nothing more.

Dude, what profession do you play? I’d like to know because I don’t know of a single profession that has a SINGLE slight advantage over the others and is inferior in all other areas. Just because Thief has mobility does not mean they aren’t allowed to 1v1 like EVERY. OTHER. PROFESSION. CAN. It does not mean they aren’t allowed threatening burst, it does not mean they aren’t allowed to apply real pressure to an opponent, and it doesn’t mean that they have to be almost completely expendable in any PvP match unless the rest of your team is made up of Necros and Guardians (I.E. No mobility.)
Please, get out of the mentality that none of the other professions have several good, or even great qualities about them. Guardian can tank and deal damage. Ele can do those two things whilst also having good mobility. Mesmer can provide fantastic 1v1 capability, burst, slipperiness and sustain as well as providing AoE stealth and quickness. Necro can hard-counter condi builds, provide fantastic area control, tank and deal good damage. Warrior can dish out some of the heaviest CC in game, have good mobility, great burst combos and good sustained DPS.
What can Thief do? Oh, well, they can move kinda quick.
Please, I’m sorry if I seem annoyed (because I am) but trying to disallow viable damage on a glassy profession becauseit has good mobility as well is hardly a fair arguement because you’re ignoring the fact that other classes, unlike Thief, have more than 1 strength.

Poxxia.1547:

Sagat.3285:

Not every thief build carries combat mobility sure we all use SB but when trying to build for something else it usually fails like sacrificing burst for more in battle time, for a while I noticed venom and condi thieves in PvP not anymore someone thinks they did a good job. Thief always had the same role it just became more specific.

Fair enough. I haven’t seen condi-thieves (be that unicorn or p/d) for a long time neither. Nor venomshare for that matter. I quite agree on the role being more specific – but I find that to be balanced. Perhaps unlike you?
I would hate that thieves mesmers have the mobility they have now, the slipperiness, the burst and on top the ability to 1vs1 … in one build. That would imo be OTT. If thieves had multiple ways to function but in different builds, there would be reason to envy them their diversity. Nothing more.

But they do…

Thus we get to one of the arguments brought up by one of the more vocal thieves in this thread.

Personally I only appeal towards balance and having winners determined by skill. I can just as easily roll a ele/mesmer/necro (which I have) and PvP w/out worry….though I really can’t play too many games in a row on them due to getting bored with them.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Yeah I agree, and as I said before, I have absolutely no wish for Thieves to be THAT powerful. I just want to feel important, and to be able to do what alot of the other professions can do; fill multiple, meaningful roles. Elementalists and Guardians have arguably the most important role which is being able to contest and defend a point from not only one but serveral attackers. Others are invaluable during a teamfight, providing great team support whilst also providing decent damage output thats actually threatening to decent players. Eles, Guards, Warriors, Rangers, etc… they can all decap. They can all +1. The ONLY thing setting Thief aside in that regard is SB giving them SLIGHTLY more mobility (and the difference is hardly large enough for a Thief to be the only viable profession to fill out that role). Have you ever been in a team where there is no Thief and heard people complain about it? I’m assuming not, it’s hardly a game-changer because as long as you have an Ele or a Mesmer, you still have decent mobility on your team, you just get the added bonus of being able to fill out other roles on top of that.
Also, I think it’s naiive to say Thief isn’t allowed to have both mobility and 1v1 capabilities otherwise it’ll be OP or some kitten like that, because you’re completely ignoring the obvious weaknesses that they have had and will probably always have which is the complete lack of active defenses. If a Thief makes a mistake he’s dead, simple as that. To compensate for that they NEED good damage, because being a glass-cannon profession that doesn’t have an even half decent cannon makes for a weak profession. It’s not like we’re asking for an iWin button every time we see someone solo on a point. I just don’t want every profession to have an iWin button when they see ME on a point.

First of: Yes, I have been in a match where I actually missed a thief. Simply because the opponents thief was that good at decapping and constantly forced 4vs5 or 2vs3. So … .

You say I am “naive”. Completely uncalled character-attack, but nvm that. I was in early beta and in the early times where “a thief” (aka not one, but more than a fair share) would kill almost any glassy build with a steal+mug+bs from stealth – and have the audacity to say it was a l2d-issue … “that I ofc should know when and where that burst would come” even if it was from a million miles away and from stealth. History is something some of us learn from. Don’t mistake that for being naive. I could say something about not wanting to at least have a look at the past … .

Arguing, that thieves need damage, because they have no defence is in my experience the line I have heard the most from thieves, when it came to justify 1-shooting people. And I simply don’t agree on thieves not having defence, when they have both mobility and stealth on their preferred weaponsets. Granted, evades have been nerfed, but again it was pretty sick before it was nerfed. Just to be clear: I completely agree on thieves needing solid damage – I just find my interpretation to diverge from what thieves usually find is reasonable.

All this is of course my bias, as you have yours. I have some very good experiences with thieves as well – it isn’t all bad.

T raw.4658:

Poxxia.1547:

Sagat.3285:

Not every thief build carries combat mobility sure we all use SB but when trying to build for something else it usually fails like sacrificing burst for more in battle time, for a while I noticed venom and condi thieves in PvP not anymore someone thinks they did a good job. Thief always had the same role it just became more specific.

Fair enough. I haven’t seen condi-thieves (be that unicorn or p/d) for a long time neither. Nor venomshare for that matter. I quite agree on the role being more specific – but I find that to be balanced. Perhaps unlike you?
I would hate that thieves mesmers have the mobility they have now, the slipperiness, the burst and on top the ability to 1vs1 … in one build. That would imo be OTT. If thieves had multiple ways to function but in different builds, there would be reason to envy them their diversity. Nothing more.

But they do…

Thus we get to one of the arguments brought up by one of the more vocal thieves in this thread.

Personally I only appeal towards balance and having winners determined by skill. I can just as easily roll a ele/mesmer/necro (which I have) and PvP w/out worry….though I really can’t play too many games in a row on them due to getting bored with them.

You are distorting what I said … you do realise that? I think I DID comment on the comparison between mesmers and thieves btw?
I am not defending condi-mesmers, but are you in all seriousness comparing condi-mesmers with burst-thieves?
I don’t play a mesmer, in case you wonder – that part of my adventure was lost, when I was pigeonholed into “shatter-diversity”. Imagine … all that long wait to be viable, and then get the only build you dislike, as the only option. Sounds like something anyone can relate to?

I find it interesting that the only people claiming Thief is fine are people who don’t happen to play the profession… and how any complaint from people who do, no matter how principled or nuanced, apparently boils down to “those darn Thieves want to be overpowered; I better shout loud words until they go away!”. Are people really so traumatized from the earlier days of the game that they can’t look around and see the CURRENT state of things?

The reasonable among us just want the same options nearly every other profession in the game has, namely the ability to SOMETIMES 1v1 if built for it (and for that matter, the ability to run more than one extremely narrow build). It’d also be nice to be included in game-wide shifts in development philosophy, such as when every profession’s range increasing traits were made baseline BUT Thief’s… but that’s another topic.

That Thief still even has a spot on tournament teams says a lot about how incredibly useful Shortbow #5 is. Seriously, that’s the only thing keeping Thief around. Every team needs a waterboy, but you’ll have to excuse me if that’s not what I signed up for. Venomshare—if it were viable—would be a real support build. Sneaking around behind everyone’s back to decap points and then running like a two year old caught up after their bedtime when anyone shows is not.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Dude, what profession do you play? I’d like to know because I don’t know of a single profession that has a SINGLE slight advantage over the others and is inferior in all other areas. Just because Thief has mobility does not mean they aren’t allowed to 1v1 like EVERY. OTHER. PROFESSION. CAN. It does not mean they aren’t allowed threatening burst, it does not mean they aren’t allowed to apply real pressure to an opponent, and it doesn’t mean that they have to be almost completely expendable in any PvP match unless the rest of your team is made up of Necros and Guardians (I.E. No mobility.)
Please, get out of the mentality that none of the other professions have several good, or even great qualities about them. Guardian can tank and deal damage. Ele can do those two things whilst also having good mobility. Mesmer can provide fantastic 1v1 capability, burst, slipperiness and sustain as well as providing AoE stealth and quickness. Necro can hard-counter condi builds, provide fantastic area control, tank and deal good damage. Warrior can dish out some of the heaviest CC in game, have good mobility, great burst combos and good sustained DPS.
What can Thief do? Oh, well, they can move kinda quick.
Please, I’m sorry if I seem annoyed (because I am) but trying to disallow viable damage on a glassy profession becauseit has good mobility as well is hardly a fair arguement because you’re ignoring the fact that other classes, unlike Thief, have more than 1 strength.

Ironically you left out my preferred profession. Try to build a marauder-engie and 1vs1. It is possible, but not advisable.
The other class I play is necro in various forms.
I used to main mesmer – lockdown to be specific. I am sorry, but if you feel you have it bad now, you should have tried playing lockdown with a thief on your back. I abandoned mesmer with the build that pigeonholed mesmers into shatter.

Are you saying bunker guards have solid dmg? I haven’t played one for a while, but none of the ones I faced caused any problems. Cele-ele is a chapter of its own. I btw never said thieves should not have solid damage – but if you played in early beta and in the early days back when TP was a thing (and Lowell and Jumper were on top), then you would know, what my specific worry is. Even (good) thieves back then knew it was absurd.

What I oppose to is the mindset of wanting it all and not seeing a broader perspective. It is really that simple. Let me ask: What classes do you think it is fair that you could rival in 1vs1 – and what should their role consequently be?

Amante.8109:

I find it interesting that the only people claiming Thief is fine are people who don’t happen to play the profession… and how any complaint from people who do, no matter how principled or nuanced, apparently boils down to “those darn Thieves want to be overpowered; I better shout loud words until they go away!”. Are people really so traumatized from the earlier days of the game that they can’t look around and see the CURRENT state of things?

The reasonable among us just want the same options nearly every other profession in the game has, namely the ability to SOMETIMES 1v1 if built for it (and for that matter, the ability to run more than one extremely narrow build). It’d also be nice to be included in game-wide shifts in development philosophy, such as when every profession’s range increasing traits were made baseline BUT Thief’s… but that’s another topic.

That Thief still even has a spot on tournament teams says a lot about how incredibly useful Shortbow #5 is. Seriously, that’s the only thing keeping Thief around. Every team needs a waterboy, but you’ll have to excuse me if that’s not what I signed up for. Venomshare—if it were viable—would be a real support build. Sneaking around behind everyone’s back to decap points and then running like a two year old caught up after their bedtime when anyone shows is not.

This is fx something I completely support … EVEN if I am “traumatised” as you so “nicely” put it. Some of us can actually remember the past, but not let it blind us

Maybe it was harsh so apologies, but I said it because your argument for Thieves being able to 1v1 as being “OTT” was pretty silly imo. I’ve said it twice already and I’ll say it again, you are completely ignoring the fact that other professions HAVE mobility whilst also having great sustain and DPS/burst, both of which Thief is currently lacking in. So there is absolutely no excuse for Thieves being the only profession that cannot 1v1 reliably.
Also, I was in early betas too funnily enough and I played at launch. I know exactly what state Thief was in. I also know that Thief has, since then, been the constant target of continous nerfs and QQ from the playerbase and as a result we have THIS topic. I don’t really CARE what state we used to be in, I don’t care that we were considered the most OP thing to ever exist because I don’t want to return to how we were in the past, I’ve not even suggested it. How we were in the past is completely irrelevant and in no way should impact the viability of the class right now. I didn’t particularly like Mesmer back in the day, but did I agree with them being pigeonholed into 1 or 2 builds and being easily the most under-represented profession? No, I didn’t. It’s completely braindead to suggest Thief shouldn’t be on equal footing because 3 years ago it was “OP”.
Again, have I once suggested I want to 1-shot people? Please find me a single line I’ve said that suggests that I want to be able to 1-shot anyone. What I have said is that I want to have meaningful damage and that I don’t want to be in a situation where everyone has an iWin button against Thief if they don’t run the kitten away.
Finally, Stealth is hardly a defence now because a D/P Thief (pretty much all you see in PvP) will do one of two things when they go into stealth (most of the time) – Run away, in which case you don’t need to worry about them, or they’ll go straight to your back. If you’re playing Guardian, Ele, Necro, Warrior etc and you don’t know how to play around that then I don’t know what to say to you, because if I’m playing as my Hammer Rampage Warrior then Thief’s stealth, his “defence” means absolutely nothing to me. Soon as he comes out and he hasn’t got SS, he’s dead. Simple. There are a plethora of counters to D/P Thief’s stealth, and most of them involve common sense.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

snip

Sorry about that snip.

I hardly think you are the kind of person I would disagree with, if it came an evaluation of the state of thieves.

I DO find it relevant to look at the past, but not let it blind you – I find the past to be highly relevant for how the future is formed. I could argue on a more elaborate level about that, but lets just say, I am not alone in that opinion.

If you look at the post just above yours (the one written by Amante.8109) then you would get some idea about suggestions I completely support.

Cheers

HI.

i want to thank everyone for their support AND constructive feedback.

While i do agree that thieves have a very good mobility lets not forget that other classes can have similar mobility ( mesmer portal, that also serves as an escape and port to decap/cap), D/D ele WHILE maintaining a capacity do instadown ANYONE WHILE evading. This is ridiculous im sorry.

Thieves were supposed to be from the start high risk high reward class and although I DO AGREE that thieves should be able to be a bunker thief IF they spec purely on support/tanky line…. SHADOWFORM ?!?!?! anybody? :P

One problem as of now within the thief class is that we only have 2 roles : dmg and supp BUT if a thief decides to go full DMG they can never even reach the level of a mesmer or ele or burning guardian ( but burning guardians should be nerfed and nobody should look at them as a place to be.) AND IF they go full support, they come to the realization that they are out-classed as support by at least necro and guardian ( even water ele ) so even if spec fully for support they feel subpar.

Now a number of you have said and correctly : Thieves are a constant in PVP tournaments and teams at least one. to these people i say that please do remember that pvp tournament are high-end i can express myself correctly so let me recall and example : Saying that a high-end LoL player is LEGENDARY on poppy DOES not alter de fact that to the general masses poppy is awfull. the problem is that Thief played high-end is good but unless u are a high-tier PVP player the thief class SHOWS A MASSIVE dificulty to achieve the same reward when compared to other classes that people call balanced example : dd ele and perma clone zerker evader mesmer ( yes i do hate them)

another problem in the thief class is the Subpar "power"of Steal , while it provides a usefull and free shadowstep the stolen skills which were due to be the thief unique passive falls rather sort when compared to the other calsses uniques. i can safely say its the weakest "passive, but its skills are also relativity weak.

Lets take one example : Signet of agility passive increased precision, active : refill endurance (100 endurance) and remove 1 condition a OK skill and one of my favorites but when compared to other utilities from other classes is feels REALLY weak. suggestion? easy. refill endurance and transform 1 condi in 1 boon or remove 2 condi.

Scorpion wire? its just a normal pull that can easily be dodged or blocked. one way to increase its value would be for example if it hits and the enemy is pulled they get for 2sec 5 stacks of vulnerability.

So in the end we thieves main ARE NOT asking to be a uber-zerker kill all be all we are just asking little buffs to increase of survival that is severely denied … in order to at least having a mediocre chance 50% of dueling another player of the same skill level as ours IF WE SPEC THAT way. A EXTREME mobility thief should not be able to duel. but forcing one class to 1 role ONLY is really bad is with leagues ANET want gw2 to become an esport

How on earth is the past state of any of the professions at all relevant when it comes to current balance? It makes absolutely no difference. Just because Thief was once upon a time considered OP does not mean that it’s fair to give the middle finger to all the CURRENT Thief players, many of whom may not have even played Thief at that point. The past shouldn’t have any baring whatsoever on the current state of things so if you’re arguing against Thieves being on equal footing simply because you didn’t like them 3 years ago then I’d suggest that you simply don’t like Thieves and in fact have no real desire for the game to be balanced. I DO NOT want us to be like we were in the past, so the past doesn’t come into anything that I’ve said at all.
And I’ve read Amante’s post and agree with everything he said. He’s actually made several of the same points I’ve made. So…. how do you support those arguements but not my own if they’re basically one and the same thing?

To sum up in a few words.

Good stealthed thief player target sighted = PiF, Paf..stealth….BoOm…..Target………dead!
Bad stealthed thief player target sighted = PiF , Paf..fight like a warrior …boOm….oh kittens….Ur dead!

Get the picture?

Vieux P.1238:

To sum up in a few words.

Good stealthed thief player target sighted = PiF, Paf..stealth….BoOm…..Target………dead!
Bad stealthed thief player target sighted = PiF , Paf..fight like a warrior …boOm….oh kittens….Ur dead!

Get the picture?

…..If the target is already running from a teamfight on 25% hp or less because your teammates got him there for you. Yeah.
Otherwise, No.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

How on earth is the past state of any of the professions at all relevant when it comes to current balance? It makes absolutely no difference. Just because Thief was once upon a time considered OP does not mean that it’s fair to give the middle finger to all the CURRENT Thief players, many of whom may not have even played Thief at that point. The past shouldn’t have any baring whatsoever on the current state of things so if you’re arguing against Thieves being on equal footing simply because you didn’t like them 3 years ago then I’d suggest that you simply don’t like Thieves and in fact have no real desire for the game to be balanced. I DO NOT want us to be like we were in the past, so the past doesn’t come into anything that I’ve said at all.
And I’ve read Amante’s post and agree with everything he said. He’s actually made several of the same points I’ve made. So…. how do you support those arguements but not my own if they’re basically one and the same thing?

Hmmm … basically because the present is result of the past. You may say, that you have a freedom to act and say whatever you like at this moment, but the words and premises are formed in the past. It would lead a bit far to explain it in depth … .
The other thing: I don’t think I ever disagreed with you, hence the post above. I think we merely communicated in a way that prevented us from seeing that. Amante’s words were just more precise about the premises, no offence – and along with my own rambling we most likely created a mishap that never had to be.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Thief main here.
So, whilst I’m not some pro PvPer by any means, I do know what “role” I have and I’m able to carry out that “role” pretty well. So please, no “l2p” in response to my comment.
I’d like to point out that Thieves are NOT asking to be A tier again, like DD ele is right now. That’s silly and if any Thieves ARE asking for that then just ignore them, I’m not interested in being stupid powerful.
However, every single time I read discussions like this about the +1 and decap-bot role that Thief has been, undeniably, FORCED into in PvP, I can’t help but sense some hypocrisy.
I’d love for any of the various Ele, Necro, Guardian, etc players here that are defending the current state of Thief to be assigned the same role as us for just a single day and see if you enjoy that experience, feel rewarded and engaged in the match, and to see how long it takes for you to close your game clients and create topics such as this. I’d love for you to experience the feeling of being flamed at by your teammates for attempting to 1v1 or contest a point without being handheld. I’d love for you to know how it feels to aimlessly run around the maps, standing in a circle for a couple of seconds and then moving onto the next circle to do the exact same for the entirety of the match, and occasionally fitting in the odd revive and stomp that your teammate has provided for you. To spend the whole game effectively running away from fights because you know that no matter how well you play, you’re the only player in your team that just cannot hold your own, and that you’re the most expendable player because there are other professions on the team that can fulfill your role if needs-be.
If you had that experience playing as an ele or a necro or whatever else, I can almost guarantee that the majority of you would feel far from satisfied with the viability of your profession. It’s really easy to sit here and say that Thief should be totally fine with the way they HAVE to play in PvP when your own favourite profession is suffering from none of the same issues.

Replace thief with Mesmer and you have what was pre patch mesmer. Post patch mesmer isn’t a touch on thief for this role (hence why thieves are on most teams and not mesmers) but can win a 1v1 against some classes.

My question is this: What would you be willing to give up to be better in 1v1 scenarios?

Mobility? Blinds? Reduced access to stealth? Eat a longer reveal debuff for more damage? Would you even be willing to swap initiative for cool downs?

Obviously not all, that would be crazy, but right now thief is too good at the role you defined to justify making it better without taking a little from what it already exceeds all other classes at doing.

As for the thief-mesmer comparisons made by others, you are so very wrong about your claims of what a mesmer can do especially as they’re not all in one build and are blatantly leaving out all the perks a thief has on mesmers.

someone actually believes mesmers are worse than thieves…..

I would give up Shortbow #5 in a second if it meant Thief getting improvements in durability, support, and overall versatility. I imagine most people would do the same, albeit maybe not before seeing what we were getting in exchange, as the last three years have essentially been nothing but nerfs for Thieves balance-wise.

Cynz.9437:

someone actually believes mesmers are worse than thieves…..

Some thieves actually lose to mesmers when they have all the tools to shut them down…

Bonus points if you read the part about pre patch mesmer. Shiney star if you read the part which says mesmer isn’t as good as thieves for the role he described.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

runeblade.7514:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Also garbage. Tired of people on the outside looking in trying to tell me how I feel.

I have no sustain.

Every other class got a dps boost.

Its painfully simple.

I dont care how long the kitten fight takes or whether or not I do a little or a lot of damage to a specific build. I need to be able to sustain long enough to make either leaving or winning an option.

Right now I can do neither.

EDIT: I want to tack on that I find the fact that every other dev is providing dps increases for the respective classes they oversee, but for the most part thieves are getting clunky ways to avoid that damage without any baseline sustain or baseline methods to deal with it.

The old feline grace should have been baseline. Fleet shadow should be baseline. Instead we got the former avenue crippled and the latter in a line that nobody wants to take because it’s borderline useless when considered practically.

I

Shadow arts d/p have a ton of sustain. Stealth up, shadowstep away, dodge away, etc.

I hardly ever die on my d/p thief unless I didn’t see a zerg on me. Even then, I have a high chance of getting away. If I was on any other class, except mesmers, I would probably fail hard in getting away.

Er… no offense, but I don’t consider being good at running away as having “a ton of sustain”. Sustain is not running away. Sustain is being able to stay in a fight and keep yourself alive. The fact you refer to sustain on a Thief as simply running away is EXACTLY the problem.
So yeah, I mean it’s all good guys, Thief doesn’t need buffing at all because AT LEAST they’re good at running and kitten. I mean, being able to do anything other than being able to run pretty quick would be totally unfair to all those poor D/D eles and Bunker Guards and signet Necros running around right now. Sorry we were so selfish and unreasonable. How dare we ask that we can actually fight you.

Being able to run away gives back 100% hp. If your allies are still in the fight, you can go back in and finish it.

Cubotrix.1723:

HI.

i want to thank everyone for their support AND constructive feedback.

While i do agree that thieves have a very good mobility lets not forget that other classes can have similar mobility ( mesmer portal, that also serves as an escape and port to decap/cap), D/D ele WHILE maintaining a capacity do instadown ANYONE WHILE evading. This is ridiculous im sorry.

Which is on a 72 second cooldown. Thieves can do a shadowstep up a balcony and leave. Find there is an enemy on a balcony. Drop down and watch the enemy follow him down, and shadow step back up the balcony to see the enemy can’t follow him because he is a ranger and rangers can’t shadowstep.

Thieves were supposed to be from the start high risk high reward class and although I DO AGREE that thieves should be able to be a bunker thief IF they spec purely on support/tanky line…. SHADOWFORM ?!?!?! anybody? :P

D/P thieves aren’t really high risk. You can simply press Pistol 5 + dagger 2 for stealth and get away. If you get stun locked, you have utility skills for panic buttons.

One problem as of now within the thief class is that we only have 2 roles : dmg and supp BUT if a thief decides to go full DMG they can never even reach the level of a mesmer or ele or burning guardian ( but burning guardians should be nerfed and nobody should look at them as a place to be.) AND IF they go full support, they come to the realization that they are out-classed as support by at least necro and guardian ( even water ele ) so even if spec fully for support they feel subpar.

D/P is both support, damage, and most importantly control. It is a difference between Ele and thieves. Ele have sustain and damage. Ele do have some control skills, but their control is no where near the level or reliability on thieves. Basilisk venom and panic strike make the enemy become an easy target. Sleight of hand gives a instant interrupt. Head shot if you want to interrupt a stomp.

Now a number of you have said and correctly : Thieves are a constant in PVP tournaments and teams at least one. to these people i say that please do remember that pvp tournament are high-end i can express myself correctly so let me recall and example : Saying that a high-end LoL player is LEGENDARY on poppy DOES not alter de fact that to the general masses poppy is awfull. the problem is that Thief played high-end is good but unless u are a high-tier PVP player the thief class SHOWS A MASSIVE dificulty to achieve the same reward when compared to other classes that people call balanced example : dd ele and perma clone zerker evader mesmer ( yes i do hate them)

D/P thief isn’t really hard.

another problem in the thief class is the Subpar "power"of Steal , while it provides a usefull and free shadowstep the stolen skills which were due to be the thief unique passive falls rather sort when compared to the other calsses uniques. i can safely say its the weakest "passive, but its skills are also relativity weak.

Ability to steal boons and instant interrupt = weak?

So in the end we thieves main ARE NOT asking to be a uber-zerker kill all be all we are just asking little buffs to increase of survival that is severely denied … in order to at least having a mediocre chance 50% of dueling another player of the same skill level as ours IF WE SPEC THAT way. A EXTREME mobility thief should not be able to duel. but forcing one class to 1 role ONLY is really bad is with leagues ANET want gw2 to become an esport

If thief wants sustain, it has to be in a form where any class can see you. Sadly, shadows art is the survivability line. So, I suggest a Seeking effect.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Thief is still op. Those saying not just used to get even more carried than currently by the class. So their skill level is lower than their mmr. As in their mmr should be lower based on their skill, so if thief goes from very op to just op then they think its hard.

Thief is still way more op than mesmer for example. Mesmer is just judged by lower standards than thief. Thieves expect to be op. Most other classes base their balance expectations around being balanced.

Thief is second only to ele in terms of opness

I really, really hope you’re trolling. If you think Thief is OP, you’re either new to the game or you’re not very good.
And your last statement is total garbage, I’m a Thief and do I want to be OP? No, as I’ve already stated. I fully expect to be balanced, which currently we are not. I don’t by any means expect to be, or even want to be, OP. I’ve had enough of people QQing constantly about Thieves, regardless of how powerful they are, so being OP would bother me just as much as being UP.

Errr thieves arent up lol. They are amazing. Still too strong. Like i said thieves just expect to be the best by far

Clearly which ever weapon set, amulets and runes being use, i would run away whenever i am at disadvantage. (tell me, why should i give them an easy 5points?) it would be cool if two or three of them chased me to put some disadvantage in other point area (who says thief doesn’t have Crowd Control in conquest?). Definitively, some of you are still in Stone-aged.

Poxxia.1547:

Cynz.9437:

Necros are waaaayyyyy better team fighters than thieves ever will be. Necros can stay in big scale fights, thieves will never be able to nor they ask for it.

Once again no thief is asking to be able to 1v1 every single class in game but at least have fair chance vs some of them. Also, once again WHERE DO MESMERS FIT IN THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT OF YOURS because they can fill exactly same role, have actually more stealth than thieves, more CC, higher burst and better survival.

I have yet to see a single post in any thread that managed explain why it is ok for mesmers to be how they are but not for thieves.

Mesmers don’t “fit in my argument” – I was under the impression we were talking about thieves. Attacking my argument by drawing in mesmers is a straw man.
My point is exactly the opposite: You can’t compare classes like that (or at least imo you shouldn’t be able to).
I think you should be a bit more specific about what you want to be able to do … in one build. And what you want to be able to do “in general”.

Actually we should be dragging mesmers into this. Mesmers and thieves used to share a role of decapping and 1v1. Now only mesmer is capable of 1v1, whereas thief doesn’t survive long enough to kill anyone 1v1 (except other thieves). Mesmer and thief are a natural comparison, one was buffed, the other was not.

And as others have said a thousand times… We only want to be able to win 1v1 at least sometimes, not just against other thieves. Or is thief supposed to only decap empty points? What is your justification for that?