Guild Wars 2

Let’s be honest, it would be pretty bad.

This game is fundamentally flawed at base. People are too tanky, mobile, and it’s filled with get out of jail free cards which let you amend for your own kittenty plays for absoloutely no penalty.

Conquest brings focus to the fighting, it brings small skirmishes and teamfights and duels at the same time, it brings strategy. Most importantly it rewards the victor of fights. I mean at any time, a thief could just stealth and run away, or an ele could rtl, or a warrior could nope the kitten out of there with his millions of mobility skills and insane regen. Don’t try and lie to me and tell me that there are counters to this that are easily available, it takes far, far more skill/effort/skills reserved to stop this than it takes to preform it.

Let’s compare what happens in WvW if you run away after being outplayed to if you run away in tPvP: WvW: you get to keep your stacks of applied fortitude and your stacks of bloodlust, you don’t pay money to repair your armour, and you lose absolutely nothing but your pride. In tPvP if you lose the fight and retreat then the enemy gets to cap the point, earning them points to win the game, and putting you out of position for a while. Which sounds more fair as a punishment for being outplayed to you?

Not only that, it adds strategy (backcapping, trickling the other team, leaving your point to help mid but leaving it open, the spread at the start, etc) that can’t be found in tdm, which is just mindlessly rushing at people. And clutch plays, like killing a guy on point to decap it so you win 500-499.

In TDM what’s to stop people running 5 thieves and chaining stealth? 5 eles? 5 wars with soldiers and healing sig? Nothing. It would be boring as all kitten. Have it for hotjoins, sure, but conquest will always be better compeditively.

Sure there are downsides in that people can tailor builds deliberately made to abuse the objective (bunkers) but this is unavoidable in a game wherin adjustable builds are a thing. How about we tweak those builds instead of starting over again with a new, completely more broken gametype? Besides, anyone who says bunker guards take no skill has never seen a good guardian (arken, for example) playing – it’s very reactive if you’re playing well. I will agree that the bunker warriors need a little nerf because it’s very passive even at it’s highest level (sorry juaraz).

Some modes that will work pretty well:

Payload: See TF2. One team moves an objective (a bomb) along a set track slowly when they’re standing nearby it. Side objectives along the way stop or speed up the bomb temporarily. Adds focus, splits the team, doesn’t prioritize bunkers because they have to stay out in the open and vulnerable.

Bomb: See: Counter Strike. No respawns, two objectives on the map, whoever gets wiped out first is strong GG. However, to stop endless kiting and hide and seek, one team gets a bomb which they can plant at one of two points to win, if it is not planted by a time limit they lose. This means if one team endlessly runs they are punished by defeat.

CTF: Provided the flag carrier is given a normalized amount of HP, Toughness, and has his bar replaced with a generic heal, leap and evade skill. Right now some builds/classes (warriors, rangers) are far, far too good at taking the orb in spirit watch.

TLDR: People seem to have this idea that deathmatch will encourage people actually fighting each other when in reality it will only encourage avoiding it.

Conquest promotes builds that are conducive to win the mode.

And you know what’s that

3 capture points mean that hypothetically you just need 3 players on each point that can withstand assault from other players and let the 2 be the backup roamers if your enemy overnumbers someone from your point.

You can argue strategies can be made from this but the objective is set in stone. Capture points. Not dying. Aka Bunker builds.

With the limited skills to choose from the skill pool, you can just make limited number of bunkery builds that can kill.

Which will lead to mirror matches, long 1v1 fights and less build diversity.

I’m not saying that conquest is bad itself. But what’s bad is putting all the effort on Conquest and praising it as if it is the pinnacle of PvP mode.

We need more game modes that doesn’t promote bunkers.

alcopaul.2156:

Conquest promotes builds that are conducive to win the mode.

And you know what’s that

3 capture points mean that hypothetically you just need 3 players on each point that can withstand assault from other players and let the 2 be the backup roamers if your enemy overnumbers someone from your point.

And yet teams rarely choose to take three bunkers. Those that do are pretty easily beaten with any damage/bunker buster composition. Teams generally take a guardian for mid point because of SYG and other support skills.

I agree with the OP. Deathmatch would encourage probably encourage pure cheese and lots of group kiting more than anything else. It only takes a couple of dps players to burst/condi burst through anything, so we’d probably see comps like 2 tank hammer warrior + 2 staff necro + tank guardian. Of course, warriors and necros would then be nerfed, and we’d see multiple guardian teams. And then guardians would be nerfed, bringing in the rise of 5 thief teams. And then thieves would be nerfed…

You know whats not working?…. conquest that’s not working and never will.

The deathmatch fights in WvW work and were growing a huge community. 3v3 to 5v5 range is very balanced its works its fun much less gimmicks then conquest. Anet is killing it with orbs probably because its been growing a huge legit PvP community on the brink of passing the offical pvp mode of conquest.

People that do deathmatch have all done the joke PvP conquest mode and many are higher rating then the people still supporting conquest.

The majority of good players in the game have quit or are doing deathmatch in WvW been that way for months.

I think adding a TDM-like format would be great overall. Just not “Team Arenas” as we know them from Guild Wars. I think Random Arenas would be a better gig honestly, 5vs5 random players trying to kill each other.

I think TDM sounds like a good idea when you think about it loosely. The problem is that every TDM type game would come down to first team to get someone stomped wins 90% of the time. People just want a fun gamemode that doesn’t involve conquest, and TDM is the first to come to mind because it works well in other games like CoD.

what if control points were 4 pips control points instead.

Smart post, clearly explains why conquest is the preferred format. Thanks.

The issue is that winning in conquest consistently is a lot harder than build wars 1v1 or 20v20 spam v spam. But those players might have a hard time admitting that.

Chopps.5047:

Smart post, clearly explains why conquest is the preferred format. Thanks.

The issue is that winning in conquest consistently is a lot harder than build wars 1v1 or 20v20 spam v spam. But those players might have a hard time admitting that.

would conquest be easier if the control points were 4 pips control point instead?

i.e.

2 blue versus 1 red on a control point.
blue starts neutralizing / capturing at 1 pip (25% speed)

5 blue versus 1 red on a control point
blue starts neutralizing / capturing at 4 pips (100% speed)

I think you should read some of the idea’s others have had for a specific style of death match for gw2. With no monks or true interrupters some people have come up with excellent idea’s on how a arena annihilation could work, and still play smoothly where when a team targets only one person, that wouldn’t be the ultimate objective.

There is also tonnes of idea’s for 1 vs 1 death matches, where secondary objectives are also considered and the environment is very sand box rather than 2 people just going toe-to-toe.

This is why DM is being obsessed over. Because some players have put out a tonne of good idea’s for it.

Bhawb.7408:

I think TDM sounds like a good idea when you think about it loosely. The problem is that every TDM type game would come down to first team to get someone stomped wins 90% of the time. People just want a fun gamemode that doesn’t involve conquest, and TDM is the first to come to mind because it works well in other games like CoD.

Just because someone goes down, doesn’t mean the match is over. Warrior, Necro, and Mesmer can pick multiple people up instantly. I don’t play the other classes, but these three can insta-rez. Getting spiked-down should be anticipated at the start of the match, and should be ready to be dealt with by one of those classes.

When people talk about Conquest then only think and talk about capture points, but you need to fight to get those points. And i’m not talking about a 1v1 or 2v2, team fights decide who will win the match. This is enough for me, we dont need deathmatchs that will last 2-3 minutes, this is boring.

If they add a new game mode, it needs to be something with an objective and not a simple slaughter.

I think there are many alternatives to pure DM that will fill the gap in s/tpvp much better. DM doesn’t encourage team play, which is a core focus of gw.

Duels should be the go to for those wanting pure combat to test their skill. I love dueling, and often play 2v2 or more team ‘duels’ which are similar to DM , im sure you’ll agree.

I also think many problems (not all!) in hot join spvp are caused by players themselves, and a lack of understanding of mmo combat.
On one of the hotjoin games I observed in spectator mode, around 13 of the 16 players only attacked with autoattack! They would run into the middle of the map where it was almost zerg vs zerg and just use skill 1 and use heal when off cd. It was unbelievable to watch.

Thats why I dont want a game mode that encourages this type of play, and why dueling should be supported in place of DM

Ah so here is the hipster convention where we firmly believe CTF will be a better mode than Arenas. Clearly that will work, we just need to completely change your skill bar when you carry the flag. However a little balance for Arenas is just out of the question.

Post above: ‘DM isnt for teamplay, and gw is all about teamplay!’ Well i disagree, you must not have played many other MMO if you feel that way about this game. So yeah, then you use a hotjoin 8v8 which is conquest and braindead zerg mode auto attack spam, as an argument that DM will just be braindead auto attack spam.

Only Bhawb here actually has an argument even though he does want TDM it seems. But there isnt really much of a problem if in the first few weeks matches are over too quickly because
1. we have already waited a year for good balance, in which the meta has wildly changed through balance changes probably just as much in the name of conquest as it would have for DM.
2. it should allow us to better see the power differences between classes without any interference or necessary inclusions in teams through secondary objectives.
3. the game is too fast anyway, if you instantly die in a 3v3 you would even more instantly die in a 3v3 in a cramped tiny circle. Game needs to be toned down anyway. I wonder where people get this crazy idea you would die way faster if NOT forced into a 3 feet circle.

PS i believe arena should include a 3v3 over a 5v5, allowing fights not unlike those in conquest atm without the waiting, trebuchets, bunkering, and constant annoyance of reinforcements, which is totally fair but quite unfun, to me. 10 people in a small arena would probably revert back to hotjoin/conquest type playstyles.

objectives are anoying and boring after a while when only have this

often i just go in and wanna … ya know? … PVP

and dont care for a node or where my team goes or a stupid trebuchet or pve mobs … and so on

Maby watched a 1v1 tournament when they was on stream? way more interssting and funny than all the other tournaments where most ppl dont even understand whats going on. And MUCH MORE VIABLE AND DIFFERENT BUILDS per class

AND – who would have a problem when a match is 2-3 min only?
Care for stupid bunker builds? …. simple fix make timelimit and when noone wins at end both teams have a lose

or just remove heal amulets

Ganksinatra, I agree with some of your points , but you misconstrued what I said. If this was because I was not clear , then I apologize.

I did NOT say gw is all about team play. I intended to state the Anet Dev’s have team play as a focus.

And of course I would use 8v8 hot join as an example , because that is where the majority of players are found!

I agree with some of your points above, especially smaller matchups rather than 10v10. In fact I would look forward 3v3 , or even 5v5 .

What I don’t want to see is 10v10 DM in a small space, as I would find a wvw commander if I wanted to get zerged

Romek.4201:

objectives are anoying and boring after a while when only have this

often i just go in and wanna … ya know? … PVP

and dont care for a node or where my team goes or a stupid trebuchet or pve mobs … and so on

Maby watched a 1v1 tournament when they was on stream? way more interssting and funny than all the other tournaments where most ppl dont even understand whats going on. And MUCH MORE VIABLE AND DIFFERENT BUILDS per class

AND – who would have a problem when a match is 2-3 min only?
Care for stupid bunker builds? …. simple fix make timelimit and when noone wins at end both teams have a lose

or just remove heal amulets

Yeah, because 1v1 tournaments actually have the people wanting to kill each other. If 1v1 matchmaking was put in with a leaderboard people would run 100% cheese gimmick builds, permastealth thief comes to mind, just like they would with tdm with no direction to the fighting. Please try and think about it for just a moment.

Xom.9264:

You know whats not working?…. conquest that’s not working and never will.

The deathmatch fights in WvW work and were growing a huge community. 3v3 to 5v5 range is very balanced its works its fun much less gimmicks then conquest. Anet is killing it with orbs probably because its been growing a huge legit PvP community on the brink of passing the offical pvp mode of conquest.

People that do deathmatch have all done the joke PvP conquest mode and many are higher rating then the people still supporting conquest.

The majority of good players in the game have quit or are doing deathmatch in WvW been that way for months.

Same deal. Are you honestly trying to compare WvW to sPvP? They are two completely different things and GvG is also a game with the actual intent by two groups to kill each other. This has nothing to do with WvW anyway.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Chopps.5047:

Smart post, clearly explains why conquest is the preferred format. Thanks.

The issue is that winning in conquest consistently is a lot harder than build wars 1v1 or 20v20 spam v spam. But those players might have a hard time admitting that.

would conquest be easier if the control points were 4 pips control point instead?

i.e.

2 blue versus 1 red on a control point.
blue starts neutralizing / capturing at 1 pip (25% speed)

5 blue versus 1 red on a control point
blue starts neutralizing / capturing at 4 pips (100% speed)

It’s a good start but it would just encourage 4 bunkers and some kind of bursty build because you don’t actually have to kill anyone, just stand about.

there was prices in this tournaments and still alot different builds and most viable
so:
“Please try and think about it for just a moment.”

always this “i think it would not work” “i believe its like this” ….. wtf?

thx

edit: and when somthing would be OP or chees in a 3v3 or 5v5 than it is the same as it would be in conquest like now cause there we have always fights like this somewhere

Romek.4201:

there was prices in this tournaments and still alot different builds and most viable
so:
“Please try and think about it for just a moment.”

always this “i think it would not work” “i believe its like this” ….. wtf?

thx

I’m sorry but that post is not actually written in the English language. I’ve got the pentagon’s top cryptologists working around the clock to figure out what the kitten you just said.

because english isnt my mother tongue, but anyway i see you are just wasting of time so have fun with whatever

The obsession is pathetic. Deathmatch will probably suck.

The devs tested it and found it sucked. The “community” cried for it and so they are going to give it possibly.

This is wrong. The community know nothing. They should not listen to them. Look at the forums. Rangers whining about the last patch which made no difference. Necros were crying before the dhuumfire patch when necro was never that bad (other stuff was too good slightly – grenade spam). Eles and mesmers moaning about necros and rangers when actually its sword thieves which completely shut them down by dishing out the most damage with more survive than a guardian.

There is a reason they are game developers and that is because they know what makes a good game. Listening to the people on these forums and in the community has lead them the wrong way. O person x from well known team says we need y. He must know he is good at the game! NO. He probably has no design or programming qualification. If you think sitting in your underwear wasting time on a video game to get good means you know everything about the direction pvp should go in then you are stupid.

Anet should have faith in their own vision for the game and stop kneejerk giving the community what it wants.

^this

15chars

There is a reason they are game developers and that is because they know what makes a good game.

If they truly did, then why has the pvp of this game flopped? It was hyped as hell and had all the opportunities to become good, yet it just failed miserabely.

Deathmatch WILL SUCK.No big secret.All those that say mindlessly killing with no serious side objectives that punish for losing fight are probably playing thief.
Have fun with your mesm/thef vs mesm/thief were killing is impossible cause of perma stealth and broken disengage mechanic and people run troll builds all the time.

Master of Timespace.2548:

There is a reason they are game developers and that is because they know what makes a good game.

If they truly did, then why has the pvp of this game flopped?

No resources and because it released completely unfinished. In the real world thing things aren’t always as simple as what you are saying.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Master of Timespace.2548:

There is a reason they are game developers and that is because they know what makes a good game.

If they truly did, then why has the pvp of this game flopped?

No resources and because it released completely unfinished. In the real world thing things aren’t always as simple as what you are saying.

How much resources do they need though? There are amazing games that have been succesfull and have been done with fairly little amount of resources. This game has massive budget and spvp was supposed to be a big part of it. Lack of resources sounds like an excuse to me.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Master of Timespace.2548:

There is a reason they are game developers and that is because they know what makes a good game.

If they truly did, then why has the pvp of this game flopped?

No resources and because it released completely unfinished. In the real world thing things aren’t always as simple as what you are saying.

How much resources do they need though? There are amazing games that have been succesfull and have been done with fairly little amount of resources. This game has massive budget and spvp was supposed to be a big part of it. Lack of resources sounds like an excuse to me.

What did you expect? You are playing an MMO. Of course pvp is going to suffer balance wise because they have to balance PvE considerations which is always going to be a far bigger part of the game.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Master of Timespace.2548:

There is a reason they are game developers and that is because they know what makes a good game.

If they truly did, then why has the pvp of this game flopped?

No resources and because it released completely unfinished. In the real world thing things aren’t always as simple as what you are saying.

How much resources do they need though? There are amazing games that have been succesfull and have been done with fairly little amount of resources. This game has massive budget and spvp was supposed to be a big part of it. Lack of resources sounds like an excuse to me.

What did you expect? You are playing an MMO. Of course pvp is going to suffer balance wise because they have to balance PvE considerations which is always going to be a far bigger part of the game.

Or you could just separate many things between spvp and pve as is already done to a degree. PvP was also lot more succesfull in Gw1, and that one certainly had less resources than this one. Magic?

ps. pve balance is terrible as well.

TDM will be fine as a fun-only hotjoin mode
As far as competitive play goes, Conquest is way better. King of the Hill could be fine as well.

Lordrosicky.5813:

The obsession is pathetic. Deathmatch will probably suck.

The devs tested it and found it sucked. The “community” cried for it and so they are going to give it possibly.

This is wrong. The community know nothing. They should not listen to them. Look at the forums. Rangers whining about the last patch which made no difference. Necros were crying before the dhuumfire patch when necro was never that bad (other stuff was too good slightly – grenade spam). Eles and mesmers moaning about necros and rangers when actually its sword thieves which completely shut them down by dishing out the most damage with more survive than a guardian.

There is a reason they are game developers and that is because they know what makes a good game. Listening to the people on these forums and in the community has lead them the wrong way. O person x from well known team says we need y. He must know he is good at the game! NO. He probably has no design or programming qualification. If you think sitting in your underwear wasting time on a video game to get good means you know everything about the direction pvp should go in then you are stupid.

Anet should have faith in their own vision for the game and stop kneejerk giving the community what it wants.

I concur!

Wonder if sPvP players use any combos and stuff. Everything which isn’t 1 vs 1 is random spamming. It’s like they don’t have any kind of idea how to play this game.

Death match with no dedicated healer = 1st team to run out of AoE stealth loses a member to burst and stability stomp, game lost.

Perhaps a slight exageration, but I think not by much.

Junkpile.7439:

Wonder if sPvP players use any combos and stuff. Everything which isn’t 1 vs 1 is random spamming. It’s like they don’t have any kind of idea how to play this game.

obviously the wvw/gvg masterrace knows better.

There’s no successful competitive game that uses pure deathmatch. History is clearly on ANet’s side.

MMOs should stop to blindly imitate shooters. Instead of Deathmatch, Team Deathmatch, CTF or Bomb, MMOs should offer modes that fit to the game mechanics.

Nobody care if it’s competitive. Main thing is that it’s fun.

FirstBlood.7359:

There’s no successful competitive game that uses pure deathmatch. History is clearly on ANet’s side.

MMOs should stop to blindly imitate shooters. Instead of Deathmatch, Team Deathmatch, CTF or Bomb, MMOs should offer modes that fit to the game mechanics.

WoW has CTF, also Rift and some would also. As to deathmatch, it would be fun to fight 2v2, 3v3 as in WoW Arena’s.

Then how bout King of the Hill, one capture point over which teams would have to fight/defend. It’s pretty doable and it would bring more team coordination and a “deathmatch” feeling

Junkpile.7439:

Nobody care if it’s competitive. Main thing is that it’s fun.

Competitive is not the opposite of fun. Successful PvP games are fun, while providing a competitive environment.

FirstBlood.7359:

Junkpile.7439:

Nobody care if it’s competitive. Main thing is that it’s fun.

Competitive is not the opposite of fun.

But it isn’t required for something to be fun

Yes, pure deathmatch won’t work very well outside of like 2v2 or 3v3 which could be fun/interesting.

But deathmatch with objectives is there it’s at.

Conquest is more like objectives with some killing.

Knote.2904:

Yes, pure deathmatch won’t work very well outside of like 2v2 or 3v3 which could be fun/interesting.

But deathmatch with objectives is there it’s at.

Conquest is more like objectives with some killing.

So another mode were elementalist will definitely suck? So excited about the prospect of new game modes, just imagine all the new types of fail the elementalist is about to experience.

FirstBlood.7359:

There’s no successful competitive game that uses pure deathmatch. History is clearly on ANet’s side.

Uhm, Starcraft (2) and Quake, some of the biggest e-sports titles ever made?

yiishing.9057:

FirstBlood.7359:

There’s no successful competitive game that uses pure deathmatch. History is clearly on ANet’s side.

Uhm, Starcraft (2) and Quake, some of the biggest e-sports titles ever made?

Is this a serious post?

You’re comparing an MMO with gameplay like guild wars 2… to an RTS and an FPS?

?

yiishing.9057:

FirstBlood.7359:

There’s no successful competitive game that uses pure deathmatch. History is clearly on ANet’s side.

Uhm, Starcraft (2) and Quake, some of the biggest e-sports titles ever made?

Have you ever watched a top level match of Quake (Live)? It’s so much more than pure deathmatch. Map control, the control over armor and weapons, decides about winning or losing. You could call it objective-based.

Starcraft is deathmatch? Lol, 1v1 does not equal deathmatch.

Fella Feller.4936:

Death match with no dedicated healer = 1st team to run out of AoE stealth loses a member to burst and stability stomp, game lost.

Perhaps a slight exageration, but I think not by much.

It’d come down to first person downed gets mist form (or any other of the complete invulnerability stomps) stomped, while the team AoEs the hell out of his body so he doesn’t get raised and boom, game over.

I think they could make it work only if there were side objectives, similar to the way games are working now but making kills more pronounced as a main objective and not a side thought to accomplish main objective control.

Most of the people here are complaining about team pvp because they probably are terrible 1v1 and need a team to hide it. We will see what happens. Diablo 2 had pvp that was free for all and was extremely successful. WoW has had it, both rated and unrated (random ganking, AV, AB, WSG etc.)

2 of the biggest mmos (RPG) in history, need I say more?

We have qq’d and got what we wanted, so just deal with it bro.

Now tell me why you’re really mad.

Cuz it’s pvp and ppl want to kill people? Though I agree strait up death match wont work (THAT’S WHAT HOTJOIN IS FOR =D)

A more kill/defend game type would be pretty good something g that feels more like tug of war. Everyone would do their job and killing would be more promoted.

I think it’d be cool to ply something like VIP where the Guy has 30/30/30/30/30 and x2 stats based on amulet =D

I think conquest is viable if they expanded the capture zones into larger areas so people couldn’t simply spam aoe and kill everyone on a point.

Daishi.6027:

Cuz it’s pvp and ppl want to kill people? Though I agree strait up death match wont work (THAT’S WHAT HOTJOIN IS FOR =D)

A more kill/defend game type would be pretty good something g that feels more like tug of war. Everyone would do their job and killing would be more promoted.

I think it’d be cool to ply something like VIP where the Guy has 30/30/30/30/30 and x2 stats based on amulet =D

that actually sounds really freaking cool

You know whats not smart….. wasting time balancing for conquest mode a mode that has clearly been rejected. Its always has been a minor game mode in MMOs, deathmatch always has been and always will be the favored game mode of players.

Its great to have other modes but you MUST have deathmatch.

People just want variety. At this point any new game mode will do. How can anyone still stand conquest after a whole year?