Guild Wars 2

People keep saying that if you see a Guardian on a node, and you’re alone, just go somewhere else and try to capture another.

Uhh… how is this OK in any way, shape or form?

The point of a Guardian bunker should be to keep the point longer than somebody built for damage, not needing 2+ people to take him down.

If you go up solo against a Guardian, it should take you longer to kill him. But not so long that you feel like it’s pointless where he just has above 80% hp the whole fight. That’s where the problem lies with these bunker builds.

to kill high defense, you need high damage. if you don’t have high damage or cc to knock him off, you are just wasting time.

Boon strip. Guardians aren’t god mode status without it. Mesmers and Necros says hi kinda. But your roamer has to be good too.

^Mostly mesmers. Necros are a rare sight in PVP.

Couldn’t have said it better, which is why 1v1 balance needs a good look into. Every build should have a chance at dealing with any PvP situation they encounter, not running away because they do not “counter” their opponent.

The difference between Necros and Mesmers though is that Necros actually have Poison and can heal allies through Mark of Blood and wells.

shaolin.9716:

Couldn’t have said it better, which is why 1v1 balance needs a good look into. Every build should have a chance at dealing with any PvP situation they encounter, not running away because they do not “counter” their opponent.

So every class should readily have a boon application, boon stripe, condition application, condition removal, stun breaker, good self heals, high defense , high damage out put, and crowd control all at the same time?

It isn’t that the guardian can not be defeated 1 on 1, it is that they can not be defeated in a time effective manner for the majority of classes, and those that can are pretty exposed to someone coming to assist the guardian.

tOss.9024:

shaolin.9716:

Couldn’t have said it better, which is why 1v1 balance needs a good look into. Every build should have a chance at dealing with any PvP situation they encounter, not running away because they do not “counter” their opponent.

So every class should readily have a boon application, boon stripe, condition application, condition removal, stun breaker, good self heals, high defense , high damage out put, and crowd control all at the same time?

i’d have to disagree with shaolin. you can’t have every build be equally as good against every build that is kitten and doesn’t make for a very competitive game. you might as well strip away traits and utilites and just make everyone use base stats -__-

It’s true, though, and it doesn’t apply to just Guardian, it applies to bunkers in general. Most of the matches I lose when I’m playing bunker, I’m just sitting there, essentially forcing my team to play 4v5 on two nodes, waiting for them to call me to help. Most of the matches I lose I barely get a sniff of opposition.

If you want to kill a Guardian, also, stop trying to melee. It doesn’t work. You’re fighting the weakest ranged profession in the game. Use that to your advantage.

If a mediocre PvP game like WoW had reasonable 1v1 balance in some of their expansions, I’m sure Anet can do a lot better. It’s not about being “equally” as good in every situation. It’s about being POSSIBLE to deal with a situation even if it’s not the specialization of your build, and not having to give up before even trying.

go to sleep.6187:

i’d have to disagree with shaolin. you can’t have every build be equally as good against every build that is kitten and doesn’t make for a very competitive game. you might as well strip away traits and utilites and just make everyone use base stats -__-

Why not?

My mesmer, engi and guardian can 1v1 any class, any build without changing a single utility, weapon or talent point from their builds. Can’t really say the same about any of my other classes though.

Why shouldn’t every class/build be able to do the same?

Seether.7285:

It isn’t that the guardian can not be defeated 1 on 1, it is that they can not be defeated in a time effective manner for the majority of classes, and those that can are pretty exposed to someone coming to assist the guardian.

Actually, most bunker builds can maintain a 1v1 indefinitely and a 1v2 for a decent length of time.

I kill Guardians without boon stripping, as a Mesmer, Ranger, and Necro. The trick is understanding your class.

EaGrimdarK.7849:

I kill Guardians without boon stripping, as a Mesmer, Ranger, and Necro. The trick is understanding your class.

“Yes, I’ve heard. Kills men by the hundreds. And if YOU were here, you’d consume the Guardians with fireballs from your eyes, and bolts of lightning from your kitten ”

well this is bullkitten and stereotyping sure maybe some guardians in particular but you cannot speak for all guardians their builds vary significant.

EaGrimdarK.7849:

I kill Guardians without boon stripping, as a Mesmer, Ranger, and Necro. The trick is understanding your class.

If you and a bunker both understand your classes well, the bunker will not die.

Anecdotal “evidence” saying you have killed them before is useless as player skill for both players is entirely unknown.

I don’t care who is on the node, I will attack them every time. If I die, so what??? At least he will be limping and hurt for my teammates who are hopefully right on my heels.

@Slithan, necros are great counters to guardians, why is it so hard to believe that a necro could take them down?

I don’t care who is on the node, I will attack them every time. If I die, so what??? At least he will be limping and hurt for my teammates who are hopefully right on my heels.
@Slithan, necros are great counters to guardians, why is it so hard to believe that a necro could take them down?

That’s 1 of 8 professions that is reasonably equipped to take down a bunker guardian, and not very quickly at that. Necros may counter guardians well, but they’re relatively worthless outside of that very specific use.

Also, note that I said BUNKERS, not just bunker guardians. Bunker eles, rangers, and guardians, and mesmers are all nigh unkillable 1v1 assuming equal skill levels.

@Pimpslapper Because if the guardian is bunker spec and knows how to play, you won’t. You will get shrugged off like a pest.

Its not the guardian?! ^^ Guardians melt for mine Mesmer, its when I see a bunker Engineer or healing ele.. It can take soo long too kill them!!!

There is no mentality especially considering that 80% of the classes can’t do much against guardians one on one. I can understand a class countering another class. But holy kitten Arena Net, give me a fighting chance at least. It’s ridiculous what guardians are able to do at this point.

I don’t think guardians made a deal with Arena Net so they need a kitten team to be forced to retreat, or killed.

Braxxus.2904:

Why not?

My mesmer, engi and guardian can 1v1 any class, any build without changing a single utility, weapon or talent point from their builds. Can’t really say the same about any of my other classes though.

Why shouldn’t every class/build be able to do the same?

this doesnt make sense…. your mesmer can solo an engie/guardian, and your engie can solo a mesmer/guardian, and your guardian can solo your mesmer/engie?

or do you mean that you can 1v1 any class but you may or may not win?

or does this only apply to baddies, but you cant play other classes effectively?

or maybe that you have a secret build for these 3 proffesions that no one else has and there needs to be secret builds for the other classes too?

To the people saying every class should be able to 1v1 a bunker:

• can a bunker win a 1v1 with a bunker?
  • no
• can a poorly specced player with no damage kill a bunker?
  • no
• can a balanced player with reasonable damage and utility kill a bunker?
  • yes — given enough time
    • but in reality you won’t because their roamer will show up
• can a glass cannon / high-damage kill a bunker?
  • yes. this is the correct way to deal with bunkers.
    • kill bunker before their team comes, or gtfo

Bunker Build<<<<<<<<<< Everything Else >>>>>>>>>>>> Glass Cannon

This is the range of the classes in the game right now. The 2 outside points are way too strong at what they do.

Are some other builds effective? Sure they are. But not to the extent that bunkers and glass cannons are.

Merciless.5349:

Bunker Build<<<<<<<<<< Everything Else >>>>>>>>>>>> Glass Cannon

This is the range of the classes in the game right now. The 2 outside points are way too strong at what they do.

Are some other builds effective? Sure they are. But not to the extent that bunkers and glass cannons are.

You are focusing too much on 1v1 situations. Support and CC have important roles to play. Anyway, if you insist on arguing that balanced doesn’t have a place then here is the win chart:

glass cannon > bunker
bunker > balanced
balanced > glass cannon

So… Where did you get this idea that Glass Cannons own Bunkers?

With all the CC’s, Aegis, Retal and the other boons that bunkers use, how is a Glass Cannon so effective? I was under the impression it was most effective to strip boons and use conditions on bunkers.

Which Glass Cannons can strip all boons and kill a bunker?

Merciless.5349:

So… Where did you get this idea that Glass Cannons own Bunkers?

With all the CC’s, Aegis, Retal and the other boons that bunkers use, how is a Glass Cannon so effective? I was under the impression it was most effective to strip boons and use conditions on bunkers.

Which Glass Cannons can strip all boons and kill a bunker?

Mesmer ^^

Edit:

Watch at 5.04 I got more in mine collection, just search for it
Hardest is an ele healer or engineer bunker ^^

Or at 1:01 first movie after he heals full ^^

Edit: Or at the beginning im not sure what build hes using ^^

Watch 3.03

@ Winterfell

I love watching your videos.

hehe ty ^^ Zachariel

It’s more on the line of “if you know you can’t win, then don’t fight the Guardian”. But you should always give it a shot first. And if you came close to winning the first fight against the Guardian, then give it another try. A big part of the game is about reading your opponent, and finding out were his/her weakness is. Some players are also just bad, no matter which role they play. But you will only find that out by fighting them.

Bunkers really aren’t that big of an issue. I’m usually only running a team of two friends on vent and we get two randoms as our group too. Most of them will still die, though it will take a while but they have almost no dps so it’s not like they’re going to kill you. Besides, I think the idea here is, if the guardian is watching say Graveyard and he’s by himself, rather waste 2 vs 1 to kill him, just split into a 3 & 2 combo and cap outside points. The enemy team can’t stop you because they’re down a player. And if their hulking bunker guardian (I always picture bunker guardians as the trolls from lord of the rings haha) comes into the fight, one of your mobile players can sneak in and grab the point he left. It’s a pretty solid solution.

Its funny because over on the guardian forums we are all asking “how do you kill a thief and mezmer” and the response is “currently defense and healing dont scale as well as damage and crit” which i tend to agree with.
it is a RARE occation that I win a 1v1.

High damage thieves burst me down as a full bunker, if they get in trouble they call in Sammy and Dean

Mezmers …. not gonna happen as a guard

Necros not a chance as a guard

ranger kites better than we can chase and deals more dmage than we can heal

Ah please merciless stop posting, everything you say is just whining and moaning about how you die to everything. I’m sorry that you die to people that pvp more or play a class that is user friendly but you need to either get better or go away.

Please just stop here is some pretty decent streamers they are on between 5pm and 1am est http://www.twitch.tv/team/teamparadigmnet watch and learn they even answer questions while playing

Shatter Mesmers, Sword / Dagger Thieves (possibly any with Bountiful Theft, but it could take too long), Condi-Grenade-Bomb Engineers, and Condi Necros can beat the bunker Guardian builds on a point in a reasonable amount of time. Boon stripping and/or condition removal without much vulnerability to Retaliation is how you beat them.

Heck, that’s like my entire role on a team now. I either roam as my Engineer or rarely now, hold a point with my Mesmer that a Guardian is likely to try and hold while I kill him repeatedly. Chill, Poison, Condition Damage in general, and Boon Removal are generally the best ways to beat them. Heck Bunker Guardians are easier to kill then Bunker Ele’s because they have less get out of jail free cards in comparison.

The problem is not mentality is reality. Most classes can’t stand a chance at a bunker guardian 1 v 1, only specific specs and classes can and even so chances are a random team mate will come and seal the deal against you, thus giving the enemy team 5 points for free.

In a simpler explanation is like saying: “I will save for a Ferrari by working part time at Mc Donald’s.”

That’s true, if you lack the key builds to take them down the this mentality is a reality. It needs to be toned down, but that doesn’t mean you can deal with it in the meantime. Don’t wait for fixes when the problem is fixable.

The problem isn’t purely how well a guardian can bunker — if he was purely defense, and the outcome was your offense v. his defense, it would be fine. It’s that a bunkering guardian can also put out an absurd amount of damage while taking damage and healing himself.

It’s funny, as a bunkering warrior (Hammer, mace/shield) I can take an absurd amount of damage (in direct mitigation, self healing, and CC to stop your damage).. but killing someone 1v1 is an act of god. Sure, I can annoy you and keep people busy till my team arrives.. but you’re only dying if you’re inexperienced. On my guardian, built with similar damage taking/recover abilites, I can put out so much more damage it’s almost funny.

Generally the counter to a bunker is condition damage. I am a condition heavy mesmer, I don’t have much of a problem with bunker guardians, they run out of condition removal and go down, my biggest issue is with bunker engineers that have the conditions don’t effect u below 25% health trait… most don’t have it, but I literally can’t kill the ones that do.

Gombie.3860:

this doesnt make sense…. your mesmer can solo an engie/guardian, and your engie can solo a mesmer/guardian, and your guardian can solo your mesmer/engie?

Yes. Not sure what you’re having trouble understanding.
Those 3 have all the tools needed to deal with any class, of any build. Stun break, condi removal, short CD on demand burst, survivability tools, etc etc.

The answer that most people give is to either “don’t fight the bunker” or “build specifically for the bunker”. Why? If you have to change your build to do it it’s either a bad build, or more likely the class is lacking since there are classes that don’t need to change anything in order to deal with any other build they run into.

it’s ok if you play in tournaments… you can just pay 4 vs 5 if guardian stand in 1 point and everyone skips him…

I like how Merciless has demonstrated his opinions have no value at all but then still comes around and parades them as fact.

Seether.7285:

I like how Merciless has demonstrated his opinions have no value at all but then still comes around and parades them as fact.

And yet you and all the other trolls never posted up a video to counter my points. Keep trolling away with your valuable opinions.

And Winterfell, for most of your clips it was you + 1 vs a Guardian taking him down, or, like in the second video, you Moa’d a Guardian, runs away for a bit, comes back, and still takes forever to take him down. And… you play a Mesmer. We don’t all have access to kittentorms, shatters, and iWINmoa.

merciless why are you still posting
your question is why do people say don’t fight the guardian
the answer is it’s a waste of time if you’re not set up for it
the end?

Merciless.5349:

Bunker Build<<<<<<<<<< Everything Else >>>>>>>>>>>> Glass Cannon

This is the range of the classes in the game right now. The 2 outside points are way too strong at what they do.

Are some other builds effective? Sure they are. But not to the extent that bunkers and glass cannons are.

Have to agree.
When did you see the last time someone running a balanced spec? It is a pure suicide.
You don’t have enough defenses to resist a glass cannon enough time and you don’t have enough damage to kill a bunker and this is just crazy. The only builds who make an exception are the conditions heavy ones, but they are another type of extremization.

There should reduce the overall effectiveness of bunkers and glass cannons to encourage balanced builds to grow up.

Merciless.5349:

Seether.7285:

I like how Merciless has demonstrated his opinions have no value at all but then still comes around and parades them as fact.

And yet you and all the other trolls never posted up a video to counter my points. Keep trolling away with your valuable opinions.

And Winterfell, for most of your clips it was you + 1 vs a Guardian taking him down, or, like in the second video, you Moa’d a Guardian, runs away for a bit, comes back, and still takes forever to take him down. And… you play a Mesmer. We don’t all have access to kittentorms, shatters, and iWINmoa.

Look man, the reason people don’t have footage lying around is because going for 1 on 1 against a bunker guardian is NOT A TIME EFFECTIVE STRATEGY. It is not that they can not be defeated 1 on 1, it is that in general they can not be defeated 1 on 1 before assistance arrives.

Initiating a 1 on 1 with a guardian is fine as long as you have plans for a teammate to come join in at some point to help finish off the job because the guardian will have help from teammates arriving almost every time.

There are some times where it is worthwhile to try to fight a bunker 1 on 1 on their point but those occurences are few and far between.

If you think bunkers are so easy to play an unkillable, how about you log on a bunker and I will 1 on 1 you on my engi?

Merciless.5349:

Seether.7285:

I like how Merciless has demonstrated his opinions have no value at all but then still comes around and parades them as fact.

And yet you and all the other trolls never posted up a video to counter my points. Keep trolling away with your valuable opinions.

And Winterfell, for most of your clips it was you + 1 vs a Guardian taking him down, or, like in the second video, you Moa’d a Guardian, runs away for a bit, comes back, and still takes forever to take him down. And… you play a Mesmer. We don’t all have access to kittentorms, shatters, and iWINmoa.

Once again http://www.twitch.tv/team/teamparadigmnet there is a necro playing right now and the reason some of us don’t post videos is because our internet/computer is not good enough to handle recording/playing and you seem to refuse our advice when we are civil. Stop kittening and L2P

@Immo: The only thing I’ve seen in that stream is a team that heavily relies on Necros getting facerolled against a team that relies on the holy GW2 trinity. But, obviously, you didn’t see the stream you actually suggested as a pro Necro footage.

Well if you look I never called them pros and I’m sorry if they got stomped I’ve been playing and having fun on my non bunker ele. However you can feel free to watch other videos/streams of teams winning w/o your “trinity”

Immo: posting videos of people winning with no trinity means absolutely nothing. Good players against very bad players running trinity will sure win, but running the trinity gives you an insane advantage that compensates the lack of skills most cases.

A match with two almost equally skilled teams, one running Guardians/Mesmers/Thieves(Warriors) and the other one running Necros/Elementalists/Rangers, will have a nearly sure result, that’s the point, otherwise you won’t see that insane presence of these professions in tPvP.