Guild Wars 2

Aside from spec mode, ladders, custom arenas etc etc…

For a game to become an esport it needs to be fun to watch right??
It needs to have plays that players can be excited to see top players pull off right??
Every kill, point capture or play needs to show that it was won due to a higher level of skill, ability, knowledge or teamwork??

Unfortunatley in GW2 tpvp this is just not the case…

The insta kill builds…. this is not at all fun. It takes absolutley 0 level of ability to use a build that can one shot people. It may give a little thrill to the user but to everyone else it is just boring. It doesnt promote teamplay at all. Just kill seeking. Earlier today we had to play against three thiefs in one game. A situation that is becoming more and more common. Even when you spot the theif first and give him a good few hits and get his small health pool down the second he uses shadow refuge you know that all you can do is stand there on the point trying to guess when he will reappear, because you know the second he reappears that you will be dead in that second and there will be nothing you can do about it, blink at you wont even see him… much like distant lightning you will here a few little dinks of his daggers long before you see the damage or the thief himself. So you really dont have any time to react. This does not at all mean you are a bad player and it does in no way mean that they are a good player. All they have done is googled the same build that all theifs run as its their only vibale build and is know rolling his face accross his keyboard touching the same buttons over and over again spending half his time waiting around for his cooldowns not helping his team and the other half sneaking up of people waiting to one shot them.
But back to esports, what will the person commentating say when someone gets oneshotted either by a thief, warrior, mesmer, engineer?? it couldnt possibly be “what a great play” or anything like that as all the player has done it press the same few buttons they always press. Like entering a pin code for an easy kill… its BORING.
At the other end of the spectrum there are bunkers.. who are also unfortunatley a requirement to win but again all they have to do if roll the face accross the keyboard becuase it hardly matters what skills they use they are just clicking anything off cooldown because as long as no more then one person is fighting them they are invincible with some builds even being invincible against two players and even not easy to kill at three. It just really really slows down the pace of the game and it requires very little skill to play these builds. Then when it comes to a insta kill build vs another insta kill build it just a test of who can hit their few buttons for an easy kill first and then theirs bunker vs bunker……………………. there is not even a reason to bother attacking each other when bunkers cross paths in matches as they know they cant scratch each other.
The only time a fight would ever be worth watching as an esport is when both builds are balanced roughly in the middle of full dmg and full tank. This is that great area where the game actually gets interesting where every dodge and skill matters greatly on the outcome.
But even the few good fights like this that happen are often runined when a full burst player walks in on them and all three players involved instantley know what they outcome will be no matter what they do…
On top of this the balance is just so so broken atm.
I get what you guys said in the sotg that you are buffing things that people dont use as it will give more viable builds, this is good. But in the case of the warrior buffing his banners will not change his place at the bottom of everyone as there is never going to be a reason to play a tough warrior as other classes already perform that role so much better.
I really dont think that full stealth should be so easily obtainable and maintainable. even if it was just changed so that you cant go full stealth whilst under the effects of a cond and had that transparent glass look instead it would nerf the two hugely powerfull classes that rely on it to disengage from a fight when they are already two very strong classes (thief and mesmer).
The elementalist as said in the sotg does just need an all around slight nerf to its damage and survivablity it as is well known can do so much damage and still have so much survivablity all in one build along with the best movement speed and alot of cc.

TLDR
Bunkers are boring.
Instakillers are boring.
Inbetween builds are fun and would be make the game wacthable as an esport if more people played them.

EDIT
changed topic to reflect what i then went on to write, and to sound less negative. As i really do enjoy this game and it does have alot of potential but isnt anywhere near as good as it could be.

EDIT
Typo

3 bs thieves should be the easiest composition ever to smash.

Something that would help but royally kitten off a bunch of people, is to remove amulets entirely. (or just make everyone use the + all stat ones).

Traits already push you into a more offencive or more defencive play style or more supportive play style….through traits and passive rewarded stats. The amulets just magnify your strengths and weaknesses further creating an even larger gap between a damage heavy player and a tanky player.
Removing this would make things fall more into line with what your asking….some people would still be much better at damage, others much better at bunkering etc….it just wouldnt be so dramatic.

(so what your upset about is actually insanely easy to fix, but may not be accepted openly by the community as it would be a big change)

I think another area for it to improve to be a fun spectator e-sport. Is for more abilities to be visuaul, most are and you can tell what happend by the other character flying through the air…or nets holding them down…big skull over their head as they run away feared. But what about corrupt boon? huge changer, but no animation attached to this to show the person had their boons corrupted.
Or massive boon abilities….sure you might get a little red around your hands for might, and you might occasionally comment on how your getting stronger or angrier to your teammates, but this doesnt always translate to the viewer when the ability they used made a BIG difference.

Its not terrible mind you, much better visually than a lot of games, but theres still room for improvement here.

If it cant acheive E-sport, it might be because conquest itself is a boring mode, though the new maps do encourage more team fights to happen, and thus more action. So i think if they keep the direction they’re going with the map design, it could be fun to watch.

A rather pointless comment really… you don’t give any reason why you believe that rather just the arragance that this situation is the “easiest” for your team to deal with.

Would of thought someone as invested in this game as you could offer more of a reply than that really…

So you don’t think three roaming thiefs all with instakill builds isn’t strong? Unless you happen to have a stun breaker up or just guess the moment they will reappear and dodge there is litterally nothing you can do to survive.

Zinwrath the idea with amulets sounds really good. Would really like to see that happen. Yes this game could be an esport a long time form now with alot of work which i really hope they can achieve.

This thread is why the game won’t become an esport. Too many people with no idea how to play sitting on the forums crying about non-issues, giving the devs incredibly poor resolution and relevance when they try to address actual issues in the game.

Tanglewood.7523:

A rather pointless comment really… you don’t give any reason why you believe that rather just the arragance that this situation is the “easiest” for your team to deal with.

Would of thought someone as invested in this game as you could offer more of a reply than that really…

So you don’t think three roaming thiefs all with instakill builds isn’t strong? Unless you happen to have a stun breaker up or just guess the moment they will reappear and dodge there is litterally nothing you can do to survive.

You’ll lose every single teamfight to any decent team composition. Instead of me explaining in detail why it fails every single way for you I’ll tell you to try it yourself and see the failures first hand. Defeat is the best learning process.

It has nothing to do with my team to do. ANY team will stomp this. Hell, bring a good composition (ele, mes, guard, thief) in a pug and you’ll stomp it.

Teamfights? maybe in gw1 but not here, maybe with the exception of legacy or spirit watch its very rare for it to even get as high as a 4v4.

^why do I even kittening bother.

Go watch videos of good players, now. Go on, you can find paradigms stream vods or our stream vods. Learn how the actual game works before you make massive walls of texts and argue with players with more experience on the forums.

Geez louise.
http://www.twitch.tv/fredzwx/b/368777188
hf

The reason you would need that comp though? ele due to its insane ability to tank? mes with the portal and time warp? guard again for its ability to tank and support? thief for its instakills? yer? its all way to predictable as thats the only way they those classes work in this game with viable builds.

You know what? im done…

just another arragant post from you oni…

you assume i havn’t also invested hundred upon hundred of hours into playing this game and that i dont know how it works…

you cant even give any reasons to you opinions just simply,

3 thieves easy…
just slap em with this team comp of the strong classes…
just watch my steam because i’m experianced and can offer a well thought out reply with good reasons or show the knowledge behind my answers…

I really think that you dont saw and participated on the 8teams tournaments. When I didn’t have mates to play in paids usually I saw some stream, I could saw strategies, learn how I must do and enjoy some great matches. The strategy and meta change so many times, more because the players discoveries than about the class balances, at the start so many ppl think the same that you

I don’t think you read what I’ve Written sheslat. I have experienced a lot of 8team 2team the old paids and occasionally some hot join. I have watched streams before. I have played various strategies. I am certainly not “at the start” of playing gw2 pvp.

Another requirement for esport is players good enough not to get one-shot.

People really still have trouble with this? How? There are a million counters. At this point I can honestly say thieves are the easiest class to fight 1v1 (engy perspective).

If you’re so focused on damage that you have zero survivability.. you get what you pay for.

I’m sure you don’t struggle when playing as an engineer to tank a thief… The fact is you have to tank up. And yes it’s easy to not get one shotted then… But that besides the point I was making as your then playing a boring as hell to fight bunker as you have to counter his insane dps.

And I am not at all playing builds with no survivability… As that (if you read what I wrote before commenting) is what I’m against along with full bunkers.

Tanglewood.7523:

I’m sure you don’t struggle when playing as an engineer to tank a thief… The fact is you have to tank up. And yes it’s easy to not get one shotted then… But that besides the point I was making as your then playing a boring as hell to fight bunker as you have to counter his insane dps.

And I am not at all playing builds with no survivability… As that (if you read what I wrote before commenting) is what I’m against along with full bunkers.

Only thing bunker about my build is a rabid amulet and I’m being totally honest when I say burst is the last thing I fear.

Every class I’ve played has a ton of defensive ‘spikes’. The game you describe sounds boringly homogenized.

Punkins.2087:

Tanglewood.7523:

I’m sure you don’t struggle when playing as an engineer to tank a thief… The fact is you have to tank up. And yes it’s easy to not get one shotted then… But that besides the point I was making as your then playing a boring as hell to fight bunker as you have to counter his insane dps.

And I am not at all playing builds with no survivability… As that (if you read what I wrote before commenting) is what I’m against along with full bunkers.

Only thing bunker about my build is a rabid amulet and I’m being totally honest when I say burst is the last thing I fear.

Every class I’ve played has a ton of defensive ‘spikes’. The game you describe sounds boringly homogenized.

As someone who mostly plays engi, theif is probably one of the easiest professions for us to fight regardless of spec, necro situationally is easy too. Its professions with high access to stability that cause us the most problems. Atleast from my point of view….we have next to no boon shred (throw mine does 1). But CC we have plenty.

Another topic from a all-day-hotjoin-player who has actually no clue about competitive pvp. Why you even mention e-sports then?

Wow… Did you read the thread before posting fighter? I occasionally play hot join but never more then 3 games to do daily while I wait for team to log in. I am fully aware hot join is a load if rubbish and does not reflect the tpvp game type at all. All if my comments and opinions where based on playing a large amount of tpvp with a 5 man team on ts. So that is why I’m talking about esports. Hot join is rubbish and does not help new players learn about tpvp at all and I do go with the not uncommon opinion that it should be removed.

Please people read first then type….

Tanglewood.7523:

Wow… Did you read the thread before posting fighter? I occasionally play hot join but never more then 3 games to do daily while I wait for team to log in. I am fully aware hot join is a load if rubbish and does not reflect the tpvp game type at all. All if my comments and opinions where based on playing a large amount of tpvp with a 5 man team on ts. So that is why I’m talking about esports. Hot join is rubbish and does not help new players learn about tpvp at all and I do go with the not uncommon opinion that it should be removed.

Please people read first then type….

Sorry, but mentioning 3 thieves in a setup should be good… Means you’re not competitive enough to talk about e-sports. Still I apprectiate you’re not a 24/7 hotjoiner. You earned some respect.

OP stands and waits while thief sits in shadow refuge. That should say it all.
Triple BS thief comp is horrible and very easy to squash with a remotely balanced comp.
Roll a thief and learn its weaknesses, it’s clearly a l2 kitten ue (this is getting old).

Besides the e-Sports Features (Obs-Mode, Custom Games and eventually a working matchmaking-system + Ladder), there is nothing inherently missing from GW2 to be a potential e-Sport.

Yes, we could talk about new game-modes, better balance etc., but those aren’t a necessity for e-Sports, because GW2 is a mechanically smooth, skill-intensive and fun to play/watch game.

The only thing besides the necessary features that GW2 needs to be an e-Sport is People playing the game. How they make it happen is another question:

1) New other Features that really make GW2 stand out, make ppl come back to it, tell friends about it etc.
2) A big Tournament with cash-prizes
3) Smart advertising of GW2 finally being e-Sport ready
etc.

PowerBottom.5796:

Besides the e-Sports Features (Obs-Mode, Custom Games and eventually a working matchmaking-system + Ladder), there is nothing inherently missing from GW2 to be a potential e-Sport.

Yes, we could talk about new game-modes, better balance etc., but those aren’t a necessity for e-Sports, because GW2 is a mechanically smooth, skill-intensive and fun to play/watch game.

The only thing besides the necessary features that GW2 needs to be an e-Sport is People playing the game. How they make it happen is another question:

1) New other Features that really make GW2 stand out, make ppl come back to it, tell friends about it etc.
2) A big Tournament with cash-prizes
3) Smart advertising of GW2 finally being e-Sport ready
etc.

This bloke has it right. Balance is the least of this games problems, and its not even worth discussing. A lack of features is what has, does and will hurt GW2’s chance even being a remotely competitive game let alone an Esport.

There’s a reason there’s had been next to nil meta changes or significant balance changes, because its not worth worrying about. The meta is in the hands of the community. The already stretched thin pvp team is working on features, however slowly and quite rightly.

Ladder, custom servers, observer mode and working matchmaking will be what sells copies and brings players in, not some I achievable state of balance bliss.

No competitive MMO (lol at that anyway) or MOBA is balanced. Feel free to argue that, but Ivan prove it.

I’m am not saying that a team with 3 theifs is a good team I’m saying individually a thief is way to easy to install kill people with. A 3 thief team ofcourse can’t point defend well enough.

When a thief pops refuge psybunny I do not simply stand and wait I move and turn and try to spot the first sign of when to stun break or dodge if I have them available. The reason I don’t just run is because its a point cap game it’s more worth while I cap the point then run. Ofcourse I am even less helpful dead but I shudnt have to die with such a minute chance of survival in a second. In a 1v1. If the thief at least used a non full burst build and the fight lasted at least a few seconds and I had te chance to use a skill I would have no problem with being beaten then as I had my chance to outplay him.

Yes I agree there are more important issues then balance which I why I said aside from those at the start of the post these other reasons are still a big issue.

No I don’t think I am a good enough player to participate in the hopefully future big tournaments but when a game has those going on it brings a lot of extra players and a good meta for us not pro but not casual players. And we need that with our thin player base.

if a thief pops refuge you should spam attacks in the refuge o0

Not all classes have enough attacks that are useable without a target…

You should play more aggressively when a thief uses shadow refuge, since they usually use it when they are quite low. Head in and always keep autoattacking, spam AoEs, that’s enough to either get him down or make him run. What profession do you play? We’d be able to give better input if we know what tools you have to play with.

EDIT: ranger or mesmer I guess? Trapspam for ranger and you should have more than enough tools as a mesmer to totally mitigate thief burst.

Yes I play ranger and mesmer both need a slight nerf though but I like the styles of play.
The refuge is often popped out of sight though : / so u have no idea they are even there until dink dink dink dead.

With ranger I can lay traps around the point prior to seeing anyone ofcourse but a few traps isn’t enough. To stop someone who has a good few secs and full stealth to walk around or take the best route.

You’re probably facing the d/p backstab build. It differs from the usual d/d backstab since the combo can be done from stealth and it has more utility. If they caught you unaware it can be pretty tricky to counter.
This is what an average d/p thief runs: http://goo.gl/kFkbT.

Keep an eye on your pet, he’ll often still follow the thief even if he stealthed. Use your traps defensively, entangle will destroy him when he has used up his shadowstep and it should give you enough breathing space to fill him with bleeds. I carry lightning reflexes on my trapranger against backstab thieves/warrs, save that against the basilisk venom opener.

Tanglewood.7523:

Yes I play ranger and mesmer both need a slight nerf though but I like the styles of play.
The refuge is often popped out of sight though : / so u have no idea they are even there until dink dink dink dead.

Mabye use your focus and pull him out of the refuge + shatter and he’s dead. What’s so hard about it?

The pet thing sounds like a bug though so I imagine it will be removed at some point. With entangle yes that does destroy bursters but I have to see him first to know its worth using my elite. Even when you stun break quick enough which pretty kitten quick you’ve already lost a lot of health and all the thief then does is smack the crap outta their number 2 to heart seek you to death. Although you stand more of a chance if u can stun break quick enough it’s not easy to avoid being hs to death.

I don’t always have a focus its a very specific use to bring it then which isn’t worth it.

I’m not even playing mesmer and I know more than you about it?
Focus is the best off-hand for a mesmer. It’s a free shatter, if the other person hasn’t stability up. Mabye ask some real-mesmers to help you out, or watch guides.
GL

Haha.

If your not using sword/pistol, you’re doing it wrong.

Ask Helseth or go competitive dude.

Sword/pistol is better in 1v1 situations, but sword/focus outshines it greatly in teamfigths. Free swiftness for a low mobility class, the ability to pull necros/thieves off the ledge into AoEs, setting up a nice cluster of CCd enemies against a wall for AoE teamburst.

I use sword pistol + gs. gs 5 can knock a thief from his refuge but often as I mentioned earlier the refuge is used out of sight so the first you see of them is when they attack.

I used to have focus to swap to back when we cud swap weps from inventory mid game like gw1. Where you would have so many shields haha

You should give staff a try instead of greatsword. Double chaos armor, AoE condifield and the free teleport out of bursts are really good abilities when fighting squishies.

GS? I hope mesmer is not your primary class. Staff is way better.

says the guy who thinks focus is better then pistol… gs is not bad at all. I’m not based on cond damage.

Staff is better than greatsword, focus is the primrary pick most good mesmer (including myself) goes in competitive play. Pistol isnt horrible, but in a meta that is designed around the mesmer not ever 1v1ing why would you sacrafice utility in exchange for 1v1 capability?

Gs is nowhere near the power of staff, staff gives AMAZING mobility and utility. Phase retreat can be used to teleport to a highground at almost every single point and can allow some crazy good shortcuts (you can instantly port to clocktower with it, instantly up to trebs, instantly up from lower area to higher area in mansion, instantly to the bridge on legacy, etc)

Again, look at streamers. Stop being insulted by the thought that for example I know more than you. Learn from me. Learn from my hair.
http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2#

I will try a staff build.

and thank you oni for offering a reply with some thought behind the opinion you gave this time.

Im not insulted by the fact that you know more then me. I wouldn’t of had any problem with you if you had actually given advice in the same manner as you just did rather then the earlier Aragant one sentence reply about thiefs being easy…

Oni.5429:

Staff is better than greatsword, focus is the primrary pick most good mesmer (including myself) goes in competitive play. Pistol isnt horrible, but in a meta that is designed around the mesmer not ever 1v1ing why would you sacrafice utility in exchange for 1v1 capability?

Gs is nowhere near the power of staff, staff gives AMAZING mobility and utility. Phase retreat can be used to teleport to a highground at almost every single point and can allow some crazy good shortcuts (you can instantly port to clocktower with it, instantly up to trebs, instantly up from lower area to higher area in mansion, instantly to the bridge on legacy, etc)

Again, look at streamers. Stop being insulted by the thought that for example I know more than you. Learn from me. Learn from my hair.
http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2#

Ok. I’m not one of those people who can’t admit to be wrong. All the Mesmer streams I have watched, generally are shatter spec with staff & Sword/Pistol. If Helseth says that focus is more useful, then I’m inclined to change my tune and retract my previous post.

I know my spec is sub optimal, but I don’t play at the highest level. I que solo and generally have low MMR on my team so I don’t mind my phantasm spec that is GS based with sword/pistol. The stun on the pistol is a big one for me setting up burst or even stopping a Rez or stomp.

Helseth, can you post a link to your build or guide? I might give shatter another go and see if I like it.