Guild Wars 2

I can understand the hate on Skyhammer and knockbacks. I think the map would potentially be fine with perimeter ledges blocked off, but currently I can see why people see it as a mini-game inside a mini-game rather than a competitive arena.

But I don’t get the hate on Spirit Watch. All of the maps try to incorporate something besides straight capture-point gameplay, and this map has arguably the most meaningful. Not necessarily because of impact, where the Lord and temple buffs would probably take the cake.. but rather it’s consistency/persistence. Isn’t that (the lack of diverse gameplay types) the #1 problem with sPvP at the moment?

From what I gather the main gripe is with movement skills and the orb, but I don’t understand why this is a problem. Was Warsong Gulch not worth playing because of Travel form? Was rocket-jumping at the clutchest possible time in UT2K4 not some of the most exciting moments? Why exactly are these movements skills a bad thing here? I don’t get it. I’d personally love a pure CTF map, but seeing as this is as close as we have so far it’s one of my favorites. Why is it being discouraged?

It’s because it’s different, and people don’t like different. They don’t want to have to bend their strategies to account for another major variable. They don’t like trying to come up with new and interesting ideas.

People are lazy and boring, and so they don’t like spirit watch.

I personnally think Skyhammer is perfectly fine as it is. I love the way it requires to adapt my build and plays if i want to dodge knobacks out of the map and skyhammer shots.
I also love to see players complaining 24/7 about it, and see that most of them don’t even try to adapt their builds with more stability, stun breakers and knockback than in other maps as they should. (seriously, every class have a stun breaker, stability, knockback, fear ability or even grabs, the main problem is that most players i fight and see complain about the map NEVER use thoses).

I think Spirit Watch is fine aswell, though i REALLY hate it. Not because of pseudo unbalanced map, but becauce IMO it’s not fun to play. But that’s just a personnal taste. What i don’t like it ? I find it very frustrating to have to try to kill someone carrying the orb while his team is just caping points. In SoloQ i found it awfull since the team coordination is very hard to maintain with this, and i get way too often team mates not focusing on the points. Again, it’s just a personnal taste, i think that THE MAP is balanced.

I personally am okay with all the maps aside from Capricorn.

But Spiritwatch has been the most bugged map I’ve ever played on. It’s not fun getting stuck on slopes, walls, rocks, etc.

I like Spirit Watch. I think most of the hate is due to the orb spawn zergfest that attracts baddies like a magnet in soloq (not that I’m a top player, but at least I try), which can make it a painful experience for anyone trying to actually win. But on the other end, I think it’s also the map where a slightly better team will steamroll the other one.

I personally dislike it because most of the people who I end up with in solo que do not know how to rotate sensibly.

Celeras.4980:

Was Warsong Gulch not worth playing because of Travel form?

Umm being the right flag-carrying class in WSG made a huge difference. You were either crawling across the map at normal run speed while trying to fend-off constant attackers, or you were ZOOMING across the map in Travel Form / Ghost Wolf / etc and scoring your team the win.

Spirit Orb is even worse because it doesn’t follow the same rules for movement-boosting abilities across different classes. Some leaps work, some don’t. Some dashes work, some don’t. It’s completely inconsistent across classes and makes no sense.

Because classes rolling dedicated orb running builds are as silly as dedicated CC spammers on Skyhammer…minus the extra annoyance part.
That being said, I actually liked Spiritwatch, but the ranger leaps/old rtl made orb running way too easy given its impact on the score. Well, now its ranger leaps and engi flying accross half the field, I suppose.

I like the idea of it, it’s just badly executed. Certain skills give some classes too much of an edge when carrying the orb. They need to give the orb it’s own skill when you pick it up, much like the Orb of Power when it was in WvW. Also no movement increase should affect the carrier.

These should be the skills you have when carrying the orb, or something similar.

Power Bolt: Release a burst of energy to damage your target.

Orb Strike: Hit your enemy with the Orb, stunning them.

Throw Orb: Throw the Orb towards your target, blinding targets that it passes through. It bursts, dazing enemies, and returns to you.

Radiant Armor: Grant Retaliation to nearby allies.

Spirit Watch is fine, Skyhammer is a monster.

We wanted RANDOM maps for a long time, to have see whos “all-round / balanced” best, at any given scenario. This map and trollhamer require a complete overhaul for many builds/roles and whole match relying on the “secondary objective”. Again, secondary, not main.

Furtheremore, the game is designed and balanced around conquest 1st. Think of how many pull are not working for orb running, many aoes are static, not to mention some movement skills having unfair advantage over other. (best proposed offer was to lock weapon/utility and give special “orb skillset”)

Lastly, the map layout. It is too much mobility dependant, proffesions with vertical teleport have huuuge gains, while proffesions with less dissengages lose cz points/orb are so close.
Im being unbiased here, i play both necro and thief. The map is simply unfair/unbalanced. There is too much stuff to take advantage off , the competitive guys will exploit them to the fullest.

The biggest problem with Spirit Watch is that the secondary objective is powerful enough that you /have/ to fight for it, through the entire match, no matter what. Combine this with some classes/builds being much better suited to carrying the orb, but with pretty limited team sizes and in a queue that randomly assigns teams, and a lot of matches will be decided on which team got lucky with their stability-tastic orbrunner, rather than which team had the better combat potential.

The secondary objectives can be pretty important on other maps, but if someone keeps fixing a treb on Kyhlo only to have it destroyed immediately, they’re really not playing well - they’re just being one down for their team while they travel to/from the repair kit. The lord in Foefire is a one-time kill, and in many games neither team will go for the lord becuase it would maker their team less able to capture/keep points.

This is also one of the huge issues with Skyhammer, by the way - CC and stability aren’t even slightly fairly spread between professions, so the whole insta-death thing feels gimmicky and terrible as it is, but then you have the superpowered secondary objective... on a platform that is largely ledges and holes.

I’d be okay with objective-centered maps if the CC/stability issues could be avoided - they’re meant to be balanced for use in combat or fighting over capture points, but some classes will always be much better at knocking folks about (or not getting knocked about through blocks/stability) than others.
Maybe secondary capture points could be useful? Stat bonuses for the team that controls these, and if they’re suitably valuable folks will still fight over them but not /have/ to give up a team member just to bunker down over it.

I agree to chesse (lol).

In my opinion EVERY map in this game is fine, as long as both teams have chances to set up their team for that one map.

Spiritwatch in Soloq depends to much if you are lucky and get “good” professions.

Besides, I think it requires A LOT mor coordination than the other conquest maps.
Dealing with the orb usually requires a lot of coordination. Not everybody of your team is able to carry it “well” and if nobody guards him, he might get focused down by the other team. On the other hand, you might not be able to deal (fast enough) with your enemy, carring the orb, if only a single player attacks him.

In addition, it is realy unbalanced, how the orb mechanic works, considering the capabilites of some classes in carrying it.

Yes, movement and invulnerability are big problem there. Some classes get huge advantage there and some are pretty much screwed. As thief for example, i can’t use any of my teleports, i run really slow with orb, i can’t stealth either (which is thieves primary defensive mechancs) leaving my character pretty much naked on the field w/o much chance to fight back.

Warrior on other hand can go invul, zoom across the map with sword etc.

Travel form was bad in WG or in Guilneas, hence why blizz nerfed that. As worgen feral you could capture flags and grab point before anyone could, and you couldn’t even catch up to them on mount. That was terrible mechanics. When i did RBGs as rogue i had to sit in our flag room and make sure to 100-0 feral before he can leave the flag room. That was just messed up that i had to run a build specifically for it.

i like SW a lot.

if your team doesn’t want to run orb all you need to do is send 1 durable player to delay @ Orb, just like you would do with Tranquility on Temple, while others control the nodes.

my favourite part of SW is the actual layout with clear multiple paths to each node. as someone without any Z-axis mobility, i don’t find myself limited by pathing.

I don’t really have a problem with Spirit Watch. It’s a decent map and aside from some skill-exploits, doesn’t have any major issues I can recall.

And that’s from someone who loathes Skyhammer with every living fiber of his body.

Basically because there are some classes that are almost unstoppable while running orbs due to broken mechanincs (Like wars and rangers first of all and eles depending on their spec) while some others can’t even try to do it…wars can go invulnerable zerk+endure pain without losing orb while thieves can’t go stealth, rangers can use leaps on leaps going from orb to point in seconds while is gonna take forever with mesmer…and so on…
Time ago, when they implemented spirit watch in tpvp, i did champ hunter only rerolling from mesmer and running orbs then never want back to that kitten class…

Archaon.6245:

Basically because there are some classes that are almost unstoppable while running orbs due to broken mechanincs (Like wars and rangers first of all and eles depending on their spec) while some others can’t even try to do it…wars can go invulnerable zerk+endure pain without losing orb while thieves can’t go stealth, rangers can use leaps on leaps going from orb to point in seconds while is gonna take forever with mesmer…and so on…
Time ago, when they implemented spirit watch in tpvp, i did champ hunter only rerolling from mesmer and running orbs then never want back to that kitten class…

LOL eles are the worst flag runnes. None of their leaps or speedboosts work while carrying the orb.

They used to be one of the best back during the RTL heydays. You’d typically encounter a multitude of eles per team solely because rtl coupled with a few other gap closers allowed for ez mode running. Only rangers could really hold a candle to it (and perhaps engis?).
But yea, that was then…

It’s buggy but besides that it was fine when it was on teamQ now in soloQ I think it requires more communication than pings and text

Like with Skyhammer, I’d quite like to see some videos of teams playing on this map - premades can actually come up with decent builds that synergise with (and cover for the weaknesses of) each other, as well as build counters for some of the more OP setups that people sometimes run. Anyone know of some good ones from a custom arena?

And ele can still be a pretty fast orb runner, LelouchViBritannia - staff ele has burning retreat, and can take the conjured flame axe for a second one. Still hella squishy, but definitely not the worst - that title probably belongs to mesmer, or a thief who forgets they’re carrying the thing.

Pyroatheist.9031:

It’s because it’s different, and people don’t like different. They don’t want to have to bend their strategies to account for another major variable. They don’t like trying to come up with new and interesting ideas.

People are lazy and boring, and so they don’t like spirit watch.

perma regen, 30k hp banner warrior running the orb with sword mainhand greatsword… “interesting”

ahuba.6430:

perma regen, 30k hp banner warrior running the orb with sword mainhand greatsword… “interesting”

Oh, you doing specs for hotjoin maps? You so pro.

Rednik.3809:

ahuba.6430:

perma regen, 30k hp banner warrior running the orb with sword mainhand greatsword… “interesting”

Oh, you doing specs for hotjoin maps? You so pro.

hotjoin? Random stupid troll but whatever. bunker warrior with sword/shield is great for orb running, i don’t even know what your point is because you didn’t make one.

and hotjoin maps? there are people running bunker banner warrior in much higher playing level than you play. http://intothemists.com/guides/1004-banner_bunker_warrior
so how about you inform yourself first before acting like some pvp expert and fail, k? “you so pro.”

The difference in running capabilities- through passive speed boosts, signets, leaps, etc. all contribute to the annoyance of the map. I also think it is annoying to be aoe spammed at the orb pickup point. Many orb pickups only seem to happen while there is a short lapse in the aoe spam action.

ahuba.6430:

hotjoin? Random stupid troll but whatever. bunker warrior with sword/shield is great for orb running, i don’t even know what your point is because you didn’t make one.

and hotjoin maps? there are people running bunker banner warrior in much higher playing level than you play. http://intothemists.com/guides/1004-banner_bunker_warrior
so how about you inform yourself first before acting like some pvp expert and fail, k? “you so pro.”

Oh, I thought it will be not hard to understand even for for such “pro” player. Hint: SW is not tPvP map and no one bothers about changing specs for single soloQ match.

I hate skyhammer but like Spirit Watch. No influx of instagib (cannon, endless ledges, glass floors), but a good idea all the same. In fact it should only have two capture points, just embrace the orb gameplay.

As for why people hate/hated it, well think about it as it came out. No skyhammer back then, so this was meant to be a break from the capture bunker burster gameplay and it did little to change that. Its still a good map, just not what was expected. Then skyhammer came and Spirit Watch seemed alright, not that bad.

Like anything in life, it can ALWAYS get worse. Next time we hate on skywaste, just remember, the next one might be so bad we end up liking skyhammer.

ahuba.6430:

Rednik.3809:

ahuba.6430:

perma regen, 30k hp banner warrior running the orb with sword mainhand greatsword… “interesting”

Oh, you doing specs for hotjoin maps? You so pro.

hotjoin? Random stupid troll but whatever. bunker warrior with sword/shield is great for orb running, i don’t even know what your point is because you didn’t make one.

and hotjoin maps? there are people running bunker banner warrior in much higher playing level than you play. http://intothemists.com/guides/1004-banner_bunker_warrior
so how about you inform yourself first before acting like some pvp expert and fail, k? “you so pro.”

chill down man…he’s a wvsw/pve hero, not worth going mad to him or trying to explain any sort of pvp related stuff..just don’t feed trolls..

Archaon.6245:

chill down man…he’s a wvsw/pve hero, not worth going mad to him or trying to explain any sort of pvp related stuff..

Oh Archaon rushing to defend his buddy, lol.

Problem is trying to get people to do what you want on the map is a pain in solo queue.

But I actually really enjoy spirit watch. The layout is one of my favourites, the terrain makes certain plays really fun, and it’s a good mesh of objective and territory control.

It’s not as good as TotSS imo but I would never knock the map due to player incompetence.

In a Solo Q point of view, it seems you have too many players who don’t know If they are playing CTF or Conquest. In reality, the orb mechanic is a pure CTF mechanic. From the matches I have played, this map is rarely ever close in score. Typically one team steam rolls with the orb sending one or two people to cap atleast two nodes, while everyone else is running into the orb area one at a time and gets slaughtered. If the orb is already gone, they get slaughtered trying to stop the carrier because they are going… one at a time.

So one point gets captured at beginning. As the match goes on, the Conquest player sees the CTF players not able to stop the orb run, feeding points. That Conquest player then tries to help, only to run into a mob solo because everyone is staggered out on the map trying to handle the orb. That player becomes a point feeder and the snowball typically gets bigger and bigger.

Rednik.3809:

ahuba.6430:

hotjoin? Random stupid troll but whatever. bunker warrior with sword/shield is great for orb running, i don’t even know what your point is because you didn’t make one.

and hotjoin maps? there are people running bunker banner warrior in much higher playing level than you play. http://intothemists.com/guides/1004-banner_bunker_warrior
so how about you inform yourself first before acting like some pvp expert and fail, k? “you so pro.”

Oh, I thought it will be not hard to understand even for for such “pro” player. Hint: SW is not tPvP map and no one bothers about changing specs for single soloQ match.

Actually pretty much every decent player tries to change spec/class for the best comp in soloq, and i personally hate soloq (Way more fun going in tqueue pug) but i guess you play with worst ppl in the world if they all go like “nice we’re 4 thieves and no bunkers, let’s go like this even if someone could run something else setting up a decent comp” or maybe it’s just you dunno…

When you start saying things like “everyone” or “noone” think twice before going full bs mode…way better hint than yours

And no i’m not rushing to defend anyone btw..

Archaon.6245:

Actually pretty much every decent player tries to change spec/class for the best comp in soloq, and i personally hate soloq (Way more fun going in tqueue pug) but i guess you play with worst ppl in the world if they all go like “nice we’re 4 thieves and no bunkers, let’s go like this even if someone could run something else setting up a decent comp” or maybe it’s just you dunno…

When you start saying things like “everyone” or “noone” think twice before going full bs mode…way better hint than yours

And no i’m not rushing to defend anyone btw..

Oh, so you’re soloQ hero, I get it.

Rednik.3809:

Archaon.6245:

Actually pretty much every decent player tries to change spec/class for the best comp in soloq, and i personally hate soloq (Way more fun going in tqueue pug) but i guess you play with worst ppl in the world if they all go like “nice we’re 4 thieves and no bunkers, let’s go like this even if someone could run something else setting up a decent comp” or maybe it’s just you dunno…

When you start saying things like “everyone” or “noone” think twice before going full bs mode…way better hint than yours

And no i’m not rushing to defend anyone btw..

Oh, so you’re soloQ hero, I get it.

You obviously can’t read i guess…

whats wrong with Capricorn? plz don’t tell me it’s because it has water…

spirit watch is one of my fav maps

CMstorm.8679:

whats wrong with Capricorn? plz don’t tell me it’s because it has water…

It’s not the water. It’s the completely and utterly ridiculous imbalance of classes underwater coupled with the fact that you can’t stomp. Eles have a lot of soft cc but no real damage at all. Rangers are ridiculous with their self healing and evading like thieves, engis simply spam targeted grenades, etc. Seriously Rangers underwater are more imba than warriors are above.

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

CMstorm.8679:

whats wrong with Capricorn? plz don’t tell me it’s because it has water…

It’s not the water. It’s the completely and utterly ridiculous imbalance of classes underwater coupled with the fact that you can’t stomp. Eles have a lot of soft cc but no real damage at all. Rangers are ridiculous with their self healing and evading like thieves, engis simply spam targeted grenades, etc. Seriously Rangers underwater are more imba than warriors are above.

ah

Agree, Capricorn is the only one I don’t like. And it is because of the water.

CMstorm.8679:

whats wrong with Capricorn? plz don’t tell me it’s because it has water…

try to kill ranger underwater… i promise you, you won’t be able to lol

or rather, they will be sitting in downed state for entire match in ruins and lol @ you