Guild Wars 2

Why yesterday my poor newly formed team was thrown against top-tier teams? How we are supposed to have fun and to grow up as a team while we’re rolf-stomped by high level players match after match? I recognized names from ESL and even WTS finals. Our win/lose ratio went to the ground.

Don’t tell me it’s a player base issue, because the teams we met should play against each other, not one by one against us. Why at all we should fight matches where we have 0% win chance and then to be punished for not be able to score even one point.

Never been so close to rage quitting a game and I’m a very patient person. But I feel my matches yesterday as a mockery and I don’t like this. Not at all.

Justin ODell.9517:

Just pulled up your game history. I believe this is caused by us weighing party size so heavily to prevent stacking solos against pre-mades.

Since you seem to play near exclusively with a full party, we’ve preferred matching you against other full parties, of which there are fewer queued at any given time. This reduced selection limits match quality, which is why you get the occasional uneven matchup.

I have some changes coming next Tuesday that may help, and I’ll see about easing up the party weighting some now that we had some changes that came in last Tuesday that also helped.

If you weigh party size too heavily you have this kind of threads
If you don’t you’ll have premade vs soloplayers complains

I don’t think there is a way via matchmaking to fix a low playerbase

Main issue here (imo) is the lack of players / teams in queue forcing the same teams to face eachother over and over again. It has very little to do with the mm system.

Lol don’t tell me it’s a playerbase issue!

Its. A. Playerbase. Issue.

The problem that I can see with match making at the moment is that its not really working as intended take my example of a few matches me and my guild mates have been through.
There’s 2 of us me + 1 other we seem to get a decent match evenly spread both sides are equal in ratings.

We add a 3rd player to our team another guildy the balance then shifts we seem to get an imbalanced opposing team they’re either weaker then us or they are hugely stronger then us.

We add a full guild group to the mix and the opposing team all seem to have a larger skill base then us,higher mmr,all r80.

The issue that I seem to have worked out is that one of our guildys is r80 some are r40 and others are in between. If you algorithm is working as intended then my only solution to get a balanced match is only duo or have only the same players with a rank that is equal or less then your by 5.

Now if I join unranked by my self I seem to get players that are on my skill level, is something broken in ranked?

Note me and my guildys are sub-par in pvp we don’t go in with the intention to win with the exception of our r80 guildy who is bad-kitten and this is making pvp not fun.

Justin ODell.9517:

LoopySnoopy.7923:

There’s 2 of us me + 1 other we seem to get a decent match evenly spread both sides are equal in ratings.

We add a 3rd player to our team another guildy the balance then shifts we seem to get an imbalanced opposing team they’re either weaker then us or they are hugely stronger then us.

We add a full guild group to the mix and the opposing team all seem to have a larger skill base then us,higher mmr,all r80.

Unfortunately this fits with what I posted earlier. Since we are weighing party size so heavily, you’re getting matched other parties of the same size (or close to it) even though you may not be a good match according to MMR. Again, this suggest we could reduce that scoring some, or increase the scoring for rating.

We basically need to find a balance between two competing goals. On one end we want to match based on rating (which is a stand in for skill), and on the other we want to match based on party size (since premade parties have an advantage.)

Last Tuesday we introduced a change that adjusts a party’s rating based on the number of players in that party. The intent is to match pre-mades with and against higher rated players, assuming that matching a premade against higher skilled solos is less offensive than a premade with equally skilled solos. However, I never went back and reduced the scoring for party size.

So for now then it would be best to have small teams of 2 if your premades like mine are not that great we do communicate but not that well as we are still learning and getting matched against higher teams doesn’t seem fair at all.
Luckily we have found a work around and that is by using a custom arena and beating each other up…

Justin ODell.9517:

LoopySnoopy.7923:

There’s 2 of us me + 1 other we seem to get a decent match evenly spread both sides are equal in ratings.

We add a 3rd player to our team another guildy the balance then shifts we seem to get an imbalanced opposing team they’re either weaker then us or they are hugely stronger then us.

We add a full guild group to the mix and the opposing team all seem to have a larger skill base then us,higher mmr,all r80.

Unfortunately this fits with what I posted earlier. Since we are weighing party size so heavily, you’re getting matched other parties of the same size (or close to it) even though you may not be a good match according to MMR. Again, this suggest we could reduce that scoring some, or increase the scoring for rating.

We basically need to find a balance between two competing goals. On one end we want to match based on rating (which is a stand in for skill), and on the other we want to match based on party size (since premade parties have an advantage.)

Last Tuesday we introduced a change that adjusts a party’s rating based on the number of players in that party. The intent is to match pre-mades with and against higher rated players, assuming that matching a premade against higher skilled solos is less offensive than a premade with equally skilled solos. However, I never went back and reduced the scoring for party size.

Try splitting the difference. I’ve had a lot of premades. Granted I had some premades on my team, but the skill difference has still lead to a lot of bad matches.

Most of the people complaining now we’re the same people complaining about being matched against premades when soloqing. But I bet that matchmaking cared more about mmr, the new one weighs parties heavier now they are getting matched against better players because they formed a group. This. Is. Awesomeness.

Bet you want it to weigh mmr more again dont ya.

I say dont match based on party size, simply make party size artificially increase the MMR being used for that match. they can still face pugs, but they will be more competent pugs. the larger the party, the higher the MMR you are queued at. you are also then expected to perform better.

The problem with matchmaking seems to be fundamental – the new player rating is simply too high. There’s no reason a player with thousands of matches played should be able to share an MMR with a player playing their very first match.

For instance: in this match I was just in the thief on the opposing team ran to my close point where I was capping at the start of the match, without stealthing he walked onto the point with me, and basically started learning what the buttons do right in front of me. He hit each one in turn without moving their character and only hit me when Heartseeker took him directly to me. He did this repeatedly until the match ended in a blow out.

For added flavor I had 3 Warriors on my team thanks to the PvP Daily.

The worst part is this is just one of a variety of examples that prove that the MMR system is not OK. It is logically and fundamentally flawed. Whether it be by adding hard filters, or tiers, or adding barriers to entry something needs to be done to segregate players based on experience because the game is not played the same at every level. And that is what creates the negative experiences that hamper PvP’s growth.

The irony here is. Since reading this thread, I’ve been against 2 fully parties vs 5 solos.

So why is it like all day, I’ve been vs. full 5 team groups when the most my party size has been is 3 ever and it’s usually solo or duo?

Please could you explain? Not to mention the majority of the time I play I’m against people 15 ranks higher than me?

Thank you for the answer Justin, I guessed something like this has happened, because last 3-4 days we meet only full parties. And this is fine. And we don’t mind to meet top teams in general, just not all of them in a row.

Actually last night we had only even matches, all intense, close wins or loses and things looked different. Btw Solstice’s suggestion looks good to me.

Justin ODell.9517:

hackks.3687:

The problem with matchmaking seems to be fundamental – the new player rating is simply too high. There’s no reason a player with thousands of matches played should be able to share an MMR with a player playing their very first match.

Moving the starting rating only moves the center. Also, starting players are matched by their rating – their deviation, and we prefer to make matches the same way, so I don’t believe that is much of an issue. This doesn’t mean we couldn’t try to find a better placement for players that have PvP experience but don’t yet have any games played under a rating type.

hackks.3687:

The worst part is this is just one of a variety of examples that prove that the MMR system is not OK. It is logically and fundamentally flawed. Whether it be by adding hard filters, or tiers, or adding barriers to entry something needs to be done to segregate players based on experience because the game is not played the same at every level. And that is what creates the negative experiences that hamper PvP’s growth.

I think you are conflating MMR and matchmaking, they are not the same. Matchmaking rating (MMR) is only one metric that is part (althought a core part) of matchmaking algorithm. There are lots of variables that can influence matchmaking to create a bad match. E.g. duplicate professions, party size, queue population, how long you are in the queue, how long others are in the queue, etc..

I appreciate you trying to explain it to me but I’ll be honest this isn’t really my bag. And more importantly to me, you seem to be missing my point entirely: You can’t put experienced players in the same match as your veteran players. It ruins the experience for both parties. I don’t want to play against players who are just learning their skills for the first time. And I’m fairly certain he didn’t want to get destroyed in mere seconds by me as his first taste of PvP. And I’m definitely sure his teammates didn’t appreciate him doing so at the expense of their W/L ratio in a ranked arena.

The player experience at all levels is suffering. This is not a new issue but it’s become far more stark very recently.

Food for thought: Perhaps the learning curve of your game doesn’t match the scale of your ratings system? Perhaps consider redefining your scale in order to create values that can’t be reached by either extreme of the player or party size spectrums?

i just played 5 pugs vs a premade that included toker nos supcutie and 2 others

and the next game i won by ~350+ points

i have generally not had very long queues

maybe it shouldnt resort to the extremes so quickly.

I didn’t think desertion lowers MMR just LB points??? If that’s wrong then it seems too easily abused if people have multiple accounts. They can get a low rating and queue with their team on their alt, and if their alt’s rating gets too high they can desert some more games? Take turns and always get easier matches.

If anything, desertion increasing your MMR would be a great deterrent against rage-quitting. That way the deserters will be the ones who get “screwed” by having high MMR.

Justin ODell.9517:

Solstice.1097:

i just played 5 pugs vs a premade that included toker nos supcutie and 2 others

and the next game i won by ~350+ points

i have generally not had very long queues

maybe it shouldnt resort to the extremes so quickly.

I can mostly explain the first match. They had a very low rated player on their team, which skewed the average much closer to your team.

dont tell me i lost a point for that match >.<

Justin ODell.9517:

Marcos.3690:

If you weigh party size too heavily you have this kind of threads
If you don’t you’ll have premade vs soloplayers complains

I don’t think there is a way via matchmaking to fix a low playerbase

I agree with you in general, but I may have been a bit over-zealous with the scoring changes I made. It’s at least worth looking into.

How about making solo queue again? It was fine. Now ranked and the team queue essence is trash.. 10000 pvp games 2 years experience bla bla.. I know the game.

Justin ODell.9517:

I’m wondering if we need to do a blanket ratings reset for anyone with a significant number of desertions.

rollback?

reset seems… idk i dont think itd be effective?

Matchmaking isn’t that bad actually.
If I’ll solo or duo queue, final score is around 470:500.
Obviously it happens, when we get 500:120, but it’s rare occurrence since last update of the matchmaking.

Justin, it’s possible to make size team matchmaking and add a rule to fit the rating.

For example, could make like this:

• each team is made with rating in certain range(+/- 100)
• teams would be grouped with similar rating value (+/- 100)

That system could avoid going full premades who are veteran players with High rating vs premades that are rather casual and their rating is somewhere in the middle.

The only downside I can think of, is increased waiting time for system to match teams properly.

do you hold on to historical mmr records from like a month or 2 ago?

Justin ODell.9517:

insanemaniac.2456:

do you hold on to historical mmr records from like a month or 2 ago?

We have logs of every game and every time your rating changes, but those are not stored with the database that contains the current player data.

If you’re thinking we could roll back to a specific point in time, it’s possible but probably not worth doing. It would be easier to just use team arena rating, which is what we used when we imported player data from the old system (which happened on and after Dec 2nd).

i guess thats pretty much the same thing :P

edit: i dont really know what a deviation reset would do. make ratings really volatile for those people? that sounds good.

What if there were some player controlled setting, like
matchmaking preference, where you can select faster matches with possibility of greater mmr variance, or more balanced matches, with possibility of longer queue times?

truthishly.9513:

What if there were some player controlled setting, like
matchmaking preference, where you can select faster matches with possibility of greater mmr variance, or more balanced matches, with possibility of longer queue times?

players cant be given any control whatsoever because there is the potential for abuse

insanemaniac.2456:

players cant be given any control whatsoever because there is the potential for abuse

The actual tolerance range for matchmaking and queue times would still be set by devs, players would just select one or the other option. Not sure how this could be abused, though I haven’t given it much thought from that angle.

Oh well, its call NoobWars where the newbies to determine out which team to win the match, furthermore Arena expecting the veteran players to childcare new players, instead of segregating the newbies from veteran in pvp. Im sorry for you OP, but you are not the only one facing such frustration =/

Okay, myself and my friends (usually duo or triple queue) have been exceedingly frustrated by the matchmaking the past couple days. It’s not really our opponents; it’s the teammates we keep getting.

I really have no clue where our rating is at. We’ve played against the top NA players multiple times. At other times, we have people on our team who are way below our level: minion master necros, warriors using signet of might and fury and not healing signet; the rally bots who run into a point outnumbered and die in seconds.

I don’t mind losing to better or more organized players. But when the loss is because we can’t carry the bad players hard enough, it makes me lose faith in this game. Not to mention the farce that is the leaderboard.

So I have a technical question. GW2 uses glicko2 for rating. But all the math for glicko2 is geared toward individuals or fixed teams against each other. How does the rating, rating deviation, and volatility get applied to individuals in a dynamic team? e.g. individual’s rating vs. average enemy team rating; individual’s rating vs each individual rating on the enemy team, etc.

What I’m getting at is the following: How can you accurately score contribution of an individual to the team? If Team A has a large deviation in individual rating and loses to a Team B of similar team rating, do the players on Team A with higher individual ratings lose more rating? If yes, should they lose more rating even if the loss was caused by other team members?

Further, what is the expectation of a team like Team A? Is contribution assumed to be a linear function of rating? If so, should it be? In my experience, a significantly lesser skilled player can cause more of a snowball effect than a very good player.

Exedore.6320:

we have people on our team who are way below our level: minion master necros, warriors using signet of might and fury and not healing signet;

Elite player spotted.

imo, most of the anger would be solved if players had more information ingame.

Mainly visible ratings of players & a way to identify premade groups.

Justin ODell.9517:

Marcos.3690:

If you weigh party size too heavily you have this kind of threads
If you don’t you’ll have premade vs soloplayers complains

I don’t think there is a way via matchmaking to fix a low playerbase

I agree with you in general, but I may have been a bit over-zealous with the scoring changes I made. It’s at least worth looking into.

Since we’re here, it’s been 2 days (over 3 that i’m playing again) i’ve faced nothing more than premades.

First day was beareable, i was something lik 7-2, now i’m 7-15 ( rofl)

Pls justin, PLS.

Seriously, SLOW MATCHMAKING FOR PARTIES. I don’t care if I have to wait an extra 5 minutes, I don’t want more 500-0 matches. As it stands, we just waited in a 4-man party for like 2 minutes, then got totally wiped. Extra time waiting would have been more than welcome.

an option would be nice to be able to disable the failsafe mechanism that loosens criteria after X minutes in queue.

it would be saying you’re willing to wait to ensure a good match.

however, if too many people use this option, the failsafes won’t work properly for the regular folk.

To stop premades vs solo, maybe bring back the old queue system where it had team queue and solo queue? At least with that you could actually queue solo. I see what they were trying to do with the unranked and ranked system but like, premades either way will now queue ranked or unranked. I ran into more premades unranked, because they like being able to stomp the newer inexperienced players, and the pug teams that do not have as much communication as them. It makes it not fun.

Tao.5096:

Elite player spotted.

Bad player spotted.

Maybe I am a little elitist. But the truth is that some build choices just aren’t that good as others. Poor build choices go hand-in-hand with poor gameplay decisions. Minion master necros are supposed to guard points. I rarely see one do that; they fight in the open. Matchmaking should reflect the thought put into builds and roles and place people of similar skill levels together. If you want to make questionable decisions, you should be matched with players of similarly average skill.

Guys, please don’t derail the thread. I had a question and I had a proper answer.

Now the discussion, if any, should be where is exactly the balance between team size and MMR of the players when the system chooses a match.

Exedore.6320:

Tao.5096:

Elite player spotted.

Bad player spotted.

You have proved that you got kitten over it.
Poor choice of words

Exedore.6320:

Maybe I am a little elitist. But the truth is that some build choices just aren’t that good as others. Poor build choices go hand-in-hand with poor gameplay decisions. Minion master necros are supposed to guard points. I rarely see one do that; they fight in the open.

Now that’s quite funny.

In your opinion Minion master build is a poor build because it’s mostly picked by inexperienced players who can’t use it properly.
Wait a second.
Doesn’t that mean that problem alone lie within player’s ability to use it?

So, how does players inability to play it properly make builds poor and good?
Does it mean that META builds are the ones, that are the most “effective” because it’s fine even when you spam random skills?
Just like Hambow?

Just…wow

Someone find me a proper gif with facepalm…

http://imgur.com/gallery/agSyJ

Tao.5096:

Exedore.6320:

Tao.5096:

Elite player spotted.

Bad player spotted.

You have proved that you got kitten over it.
Poor choice of words

Exedore.6320:

Maybe I am a little elitist. But the truth is that some build choices just aren’t that good as others. Poor build choices go hand-in-hand with poor gameplay decisions. Minion master necros are supposed to guard points. I rarely see one do that; they fight in the open.

Now that’s quite funny.

In your opinion Minion master build is a poor build because it’s mostly picked by inexperienced players who can’t use it properly.
Wait a second.
Doesn’t that mean that problem alone lie within player’s ability to use it?

So, how does players inability to play it properly make builds poor and good?
Does it mean that META builds are the ones, that are the most “effective” because it’s fine even when you spam random skills?
Just like Hambow?

Just…wow

You are wrong here. Hambow has a niche. MM doesn’t have one so people try to force them into one and it typically fails unless the player is pretty special already in which case he would have been better off playing a different build anyway.

That being said players shouldn’t be punished for wanting to play what they want to play…. but the same goes for competetive players shouldn’t be punished by being stuck with players who are using awful builds….. but that’s in a perfect world…. and it seems there are some players who think that’s possible….. it’s not.