What should be nerfed: Truth vs Lies

What should be nerfed: Truth vs Lies

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

How do devs determine class balance?

It’s a genuine question that I’d love to hear the thoughts of developers and designers on.
I suspect that devs use meters and metrics to collect and analyse data. For instance, no doubt they can set up controlled gaming environment and parse DPS charts until their hearts are content and thus determine if a class has “suitable” DPS or not.

Obviously this is a flawed system, that doesn’t take into account real life factors like skill or teamwork, every permutation of item, weapon and Talent, Alternatives and Advancement ability.

Another method that a lot of MMO use is listen to player feedback via the forums and even appoint a community representative to help collect and compile issues and wish lists. This seems like it can be very effective at helping to balance classes but unfortunately it relies on having a willing community and sensible feedback.

Anet seems incapable of collecting sensible feedback, this leads always to overnerfs and overbuffs on professions..now you may ask yourself why this has never changed for 4+ years and the answer is quite simple.

The ideal way to ensure a sense of balance and fairness is to give everyone else someone to oppress and that “someone” is always the changing subject of nerf threads every season.

We all know that nerf thread are typically emotionally charged and lack any factual data for most part, the issue in there ( if there is any to start with ) is normally amplified and simplified, the skill level of the parties involved is never taken into consideration despite being the biggest factor when talking about balance.

With all this said and done…we do have real balance issues and very rarely are these mentioned in a thread. The HoT topic atm is dragonhunter and druid balance..but they normally generalize too much, people ask for earth shattering nerfs on the entirety of these “classes”.

But taking into consideration the skill level of the parties involved what really should be nerfed at this time, to guarantee a fun and challenging environment for the whole community?

1) Druid : “Staff” for me is the real and only issue, too much utility, too much mobility, too much sustain all packed in a single weapon set. The specialization itself is not that broken even with CA and CS. The druid can be challenging and that should go for every profession, the idea that people believe some professions should be free kill…it’s simply mind blowing. A druid without staff is nothing to talk about really, very strong if played well..but nothing to write a book about

2) DragonHunter : “Symbolic build”, too much sustain for the utility and mediocre dmg they bring. The insane amount of CC ( daze on trap, knockback on shield, F1 pull, KD on elite trap ) and dmg ( test of faith – scepter/sword symbol ) paired with the old traitline Honour makes the symbolic dh too easy to play while being overly effective

-A clear example of emotionally charged balance with no real testing and thought behind it, they simply wanted to please the community by overnerfing the “evil” ele and overbuffing the “poor” guardian class…

3) Berseker : “Adrenaline health”…It’s immensely Broken:

This is a perma +495 HP/s assuming you have 0 Healing Power.
Its so easy to maintain 3 stacks Adrenal Health all time. much easier than sitting on full adrenaline bar as used with old Adrenal Health.
With healing signet +381 HP/s
thats 876 hp/s = 26,280 hp every 30s.

It’s way too much passive sustain that requires zero healing power investment; another overbuff by Anet, an emotionally charged balance decision.

Right now warrior has huge mobility ( GS+sword/shield ), condi/dmg immunity, passive +25% movement speed, highest base HP and highest dmg coefficients on skills.

A below average warrior right now can beat an above average player on some other profession , simply because their passive sustain will keep resetting their position despite the never ending mistakes

This would be all for now, I still have mesmer-rev to talk about

(edited by Supreme.3164)

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Posted by: nicknamenick.2437

nicknamenick.2437

You again? with nerf list number #212
It also changes everytime, make up your mind..

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

You again? with nerf list number #212
It also changes everytime, make up your mind..

How many times did you ask for nerfs on others since you made your warrior? Shall I go and post all your “QQ nerf XX” posts right now?

Compared to the rest, I don’t go around asking to shoot professions down to hell, so you may want to bring your trolling attitude elsewhere.

If you have something to say against “adrenaline health” nerf request then go on and speak!..But I sincerely doubt will be anything constructive…you know far too well that warrior sustain is overtuned and it will be brought down eventually

P.S I can write as many nerf requests as I want…there is really no policy against them

(edited by Supreme.3164)

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Posted by: Lord Hammer Hand.4815

Lord Hammer Hand.4815

The infamous supreme nerf threads, its shorter this time. U mention truth and lie, but which one is which? Are they all lies? Or all the truth? And since I don’t agree with u, meaning one of us is lying or one of us is telling the truth?

Pacific Islander Legion [NoyP]
Black Gate
Ruthless Legend

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Posted by: Lexander.4579

Lexander.4579

pretty accurate actually, but unfortunately once some b/s things are nerfed the other ones will emerge let alone that anet’s poor balance decisions keep adding more issues with every patch along with something they fix

Alex Shadowdagger – Thief – Blacktide

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

The infamous supreme nerf threads, its shorter this time. U mention truth and lie, but which one is which? Are they all lies? Or all the truth? And since I don’t agree with u, meaning one of us is lying or one of us is telling the truth?

I have clearly explained the difference but I will go now and explain it to you again in a simpler form to digest.

Typical nerf thread is overly generalized and emotionally charged and as the forum “feedback” is used by anet to “balance” the game, I went out of my way to explain why doing so it’s wrong as it leads to overnerfs/overbuffs which only worsen the whole situation in the long run.

There are only some elements that should be addresses and not the whole concept…like Anet seems to prefer doing instead every time.

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Posted by: Silverthorn.8576

Silverthorn.8576

Anet seems incapable of collecting sensible feedback, this leads always to overnerfs and overbuffs on professions..now you may ask yourself why this has never changed for 4+ years and the answer is quite simple.

The ideal way to ensure a sense of balance and fairness is to give everyone else someone to oppress and that “someone” is always the changing subject of nerf threads every season.

Nope they overtune some classes/spec from seaon to season in purpose, they create movement in the meta so players will re-spec/reroll and will not get bored, it is basis of MMO balance (even in MOBA).

For exemple with necromancer (my main class): the class was really strong during season 2 because it has good condition dmg, corruption buff, a perfect hybrid condi/power vita/toughness amulet and “rise” shout for sustain; meta was more condition oriented and necro is on top of condition manipulation.
Now necromancer looses almost everything it had in season 2 and becomes a corrupter victim

With that you have 2 options: you love your class and keep playing it anyway or you roll another class and enjoy a new playstyle.

The real problem atm is the powercreep environment because each classes has their weakness and these weakness make them easier to kill by their counter class/spec than before HoT.

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

Well a bit much from supreme these days ^^. But i suggest to listen and think about what he writes ;-).

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Posted by: nicknamenick.2437

nicknamenick.2437

You again? with nerf list number #212
It also changes everytime, make up your mind..

How many times did you ask for nerfs on others since you made your warrior? Shall I go and post all your “QQ nerf XX” posts right now?

Compared to the rest, I don’t go around asking to shoot professions down to hell, so you may want to bring your trolling attitude elsewhere.

If you have something to say against “adrenaline health” nerf request then go on and speak!..But I sincerely doubt will be anything constructive…you know far too well that warrior sustain is overtuned and it will be brought down eventually

P.S I can write as many nerf requests as I want…there is really no policy against them

Lol, I made allot in the past 4 years for sure, but i stick to the same stuff that was or wassnt overpowered, you make 1-2 nerf topics every week with different outcomes while there havent been an balance patch at all.

*And about adrenaline health since you mentioned it: *
Adrenaline health is the perfect example of what happens since HOT.. this trait has to be buffed so hard too make warriors viable again, OP? for sure it is.. but thats what happend since HOT.. they all have OP stuff now and they could have made warrior better in other ways but Anet choose the easy way and buff 1 trait to OP just to bring warriors back.

So yeah they could nerf it but then they should give warriors something back OR they have to nerf allot more on HOT stuff but i doubt this will happen.

(edited by nicknamenick.2437)

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

-symbolic build
-kd on elite trap

what

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Posted by: HeadCrowned.6834

HeadCrowned.6834

Well, the man has a point. Although CA is actually the broken thing of Druids, not the Staff. If you increase the cooldown on staff #3 the weapon is just fine.

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

Well, the man has a point. Although CA is actually the broken thing of Druids, not the Staff. If you increase the cooldown on staff #3 the weapon is just fine.

Problem is even DPS druid ( rare sword/warhorn/LB or similar variants ) use CA and the rate at which CA refill for them is slower respect to Bunker staff druid.

Now you could either link pet stats to ranger stats ( technically challenging or something Anet is unwilling to do) or you nerf the staff making it harder ( but still better than normal dps druid) to refill CA bar

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Posted by: nicknamenick.2437

nicknamenick.2437

Well, the man has a point. Although CA is actually the broken thing of Druids, not the Staff. If you increase the cooldown on staff #3 the weapon is just fine.

Btw, (posted this on wiki also some months ago) but the AA on staff does around 20-25% more dmg compared to tooltip..
So even a bunker druid does pretty good AA dmg with non reflecting projectiles (beams..) they count as single melee attacks also so they break block skills like counterblow and are great vs blind because the pulsing..

Ow and they cant miss/strave or strafe? sorry bad english..

So a pretty kitten good AA attack for sure :-)

(edited by nicknamenick.2437)

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Posted by: akaCryptic.2389

akaCryptic.2389

The post exceeded my expectations. I dont think Anet has done a terrible job with balance this season, but there are definitely some things that need shaving. I also agree that communication is an issue. Now that is not to say that they should listen to you, me or other numerous nerf threads on the forum. But listen to pro league players instead.

Personally I have accepted the power creep and will change my main if it becomes underpowered (like ele s4 level) and that doesnt bother me too much. And thats cause I cant find any other mmorpg with good combat and zero grind. They always have some issue.

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Posted by: abaddon.3290

abaddon.3290

no mesmer? no thief? no necro? no rev? definitely unbiased. most classes have a cheese build.

im bad at sarcasm

(edited by abaddon.3290)

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Posted by: HeadCrowned.6834

HeadCrowned.6834

Well, the man has a point. Although CA is actually the broken thing of Druids, not the Staff. If you increase the cooldown on staff #3 the weapon is just fine.

Problem is even DPS druid ( rare sword/warhorn/LB or similar variants ) use CA and the rate at which CA refill for them is slower respect to Bunker staff druid.

Now you could either link pet stats to ranger stats ( technically challenging or something Anet is unwilling to do) or you nerf the staff making it harder ( but still better than normal dps druid) to refill CA bar

Non-bunker variants can also quite easily fill the CA bar, as they get the same amount of healing ticks with their staff and regen as a bunker variant. The only thing that would make a difference is the use of the dolyak rune. So it is not necessarily the staffs fault that the CA bar fills so easily, it is the fault of the CA bar itself.

Well, the man has a point. Although CA is actually the broken thing of Druids, not the Staff. If you increase the cooldown on staff #3 the weapon is just fine.

Btw, (posted this on wiki also some months ago) but the AA on staff does around 20-25% more dmg compared to tooltip..
So even a bunker druid does pretty good AA dmg with non reflecting projectiles (beams..) they count as single melee attacks also so they break block skills like counterblow and are great vs blind because the pulsing..

Ow and they cant miss/strave or strafe? sorry bad english..

So a pretty kitten good AA attack for sure :-)

The staff AA is very decent indeed. But not really out of line in my opinion. Besides, nerfing it would also hurt non-bunkering builds, so we get even less build diversity. The ranger has no useful autoattacks on any other weapon, it would be quite unreasonable to nerf this one as well. Don’t forget: almost all druids use Menders amulet, an autoattack in combination with 1050 power and 560 precision that hurts a bit is not really extraordinary.

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Posted by: Arcaedus.7290

Arcaedus.7290

Anet seems incapable of collecting sensible feedback, this leads always to overnerfs and overbuffs on professions..

Going to stop you right there. This is absolutely not true. ANet tends not to communicate with us very much in terms of balancing and making class changes but they definitely read the forums and listen to player input/feedback.

The guardian buffs this past patch reflect this. Many of the changes and buffs they made are verbatim changes that were suggested by myself and/or other players on the guardian forum:

  • Change sword auto attack to a non-projectile (long overdue change)
  • Let Shield of Courage’s stability duration begin the moment you press f3 (logical buff)
  • Move the Heavy Light knockback to Longbow 3 only (adds more fun/skill to using LB)
  • Every guardian weaponset should have access to at least 1 symbol (sword and scepter got symbols)
  • Increase scepter attack speed (they half did this, and half increased projectile speed as far as I can tell).
  • Increase speed of sword #3 projectiles (it was extremely unreliable before now)
  • Removed the airborne component of Hammer #2 (so it could be used with JI again).

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Posted by: Razor.9872

Razor.9872

Anet seems incapable of collecting sensible feedback, this leads always to overnerfs and overbuffs on professions..

Going to stop you right there. This is absolutely not true. ANet tends not to communicate with us very much in terms of balancing and making class changes but they definitely read the forums and listen to player input/feedback.

The guardian buffs this past patch reflect this. Many of the changes and buffs they made are verbatim changes that were suggested by myself and/or other players on the guardian forum:

  • Change sword auto attack to a non-projectile (long overdue change)
  • Let Shield of Courage’s stability duration begin the moment you press f3 (logical buff)
  • Move the Heavy Light knockback to Longbow 3 only (adds more fun/skill to using LB)
  • Every guardian weaponset should have access to at least 1 symbol (sword and scepter got symbols)
  • Increase scepter attack speed (they half did this, and half increased projectile speed as far as I can tell).
  • Increase speed of sword #3 projectiles (it was extremely unreliable before now)
  • Removed the airborne component of Hammer #2 (so it could be used with JI again).

This ^. I have seen these requests in the guardian forums. A-net is listening. It is us, the players, who can’t handle what we ask for.

NSPride <3

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Posted by: Mr Godlike.6098

Mr Godlike.6098

1. The first and most important dev team that does balance is anet marketing division. If they feel that game doesn’t LOOK attractive they do things like removal of cleric.

2.Skill Balance devs don’t read forums and whining, more or less they make changes after any e-sport event and meta that follows it.

3.They prefer to experiment on people than carefully tune classes – that’s why we have nuke nerfs and overtop buffs.

4.PVP balance team and Skill Balance team don’t work with each other so we have situations like these:
PVP team ,,Let’s remove cleric!"
Skill balance team ,,let’s make tempest healing more healing power stat driven!"

So more or less we got cycle of making mess, nerfs/buffs, more mess and cycle goes on and on…

They could be just fine with season 3 meta and buff only DH, try to achieve one meta build for one class and add some build options with new expansion…but nope dev’s like to make us frustrated. Or maybe they don’t want to be bored so on purpose they constantly screw/fix things.

I don’t know man…

EDIT: ow yea…next season balance prediction: DH will be buffed…because nobody will use this on PRO-League finals.

Was depressed ele…now depressed druid
Kawaleria (KW)

(edited by Mr Godlike.6098)

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Posted by: Curunen.8729

Curunen.8729

lol, everyone’s lists are subjective.

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

Anet seems incapable of collecting sensible feedback, this leads always to overnerfs and overbuffs on professions..

Going to stop you right there. This is absolutely not true. ANet tends not to communicate with us very much in terms of balancing and making class changes but they definitely read the forums and listen to player input/feedback.

The guardian buffs this past patch reflect this. Many of the changes and buffs they made are verbatim changes that were suggested by myself and/or other players on the guardian forum:

  • Change sword auto attack to a non-projectile (long overdue change)
  • Let Shield of Courage’s stability duration begin the moment you press f3 (logical buff)
  • Move the Heavy Light knockback to Longbow 3 only (adds more fun/skill to using LB)
  • Every guardian weaponset should have access to at least 1 symbol (sword and scepter got symbols)
  • Increase scepter attack speed (they half did this, and half increased projectile speed as far as I can tell).
  • Increase speed of sword #3 projectiles (it was extremely unreliable before now)
  • Removed the airborne component of Hammer #2 (so it could be used with JI again).

Quoted for truth

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Posted by: duster.7013

duster.7013

Honestly just reduce the cooldown on elementalist utility skills, then do tradeoff balance from there. If you do massive swings of damage to try and mend an entire seasons salt, you’re going to mess up the next season.

And ideal balance means that the more skillful person wins, not that balance is circular.

(edited by duster.7013)