Guild Wars 2

So when DH gets gutted, who will the forum cry about? I want to save up my tears so I can post 5 threads a day. Please don’t give me advice on fighting X class. I refuse to change my playstyle or build. If I can’t beat it without changing, it needs nerfed.

I feel your pain but there is nothing much to do, the mods on these forums are more worried with people posting a funny gif like :" your tears feed me" or similar..rather than curb stomp the sea of nerf threads popping every day.

I’m no guardian by a long mile and I find this wave of whining, truly disgusting. There is loads of l2p issues here.

Anet needs to send a clear message :" we won’t bend to your whining", they can do that by not nerfing to the ground the DH, which I want to believe will be the case.

If DH gets nerfed next are Revenant -> Scrapper, Druid -> Chrono.

Maybe not in that order, but ppl will cry about them, mark my words.

I get cry whispers on my druid everyday, expecting the nerf cries will come as soon as the dragon hunters days are history.

I vote for Berserker.
We could start with “Can we delete Berserker?” thread?
It could be good start with rebalancing Warrior to enjoyable state…

The problem with GW2 is that the balance is too extreme. Burst build can busrt too fast (often from stealth) and bunker can stay alive for too long.

The result? Newbies are constantly dying to burst builds and they can’t take down the bunker builds either. To them, it’s a frustrating experience, and that’s why you will never see an end to QQ about the extreme builds (DH that can burst you in 2s, or Druid that refuse to die 1v2)

As long as GW2 doesn’t close the gap between extreme bunker and extreme burst, we will continue to hear people QQ about it. They just couldn’t find the right words to explain their frustration, and it looks like they are QQing about random build.

Read more about how to make GW2 more fun:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/PvP-needs-to-be-fun-to-play-watch/first

Sunshine.5014:

The problem with GW2 is that the balance is too extreme. Burst build can busrt too fast (often from stealth) and bunker can stay alive for too long.

The result? Newbies are constantly dying to burst builda and they can’t take down the bunker builds either. To them, it’s a frustrating experience, and that’s why you will never see an end to QQ about the extreme builds (DH that can burst you in 2s, or Druid that refuse to die 1v2)

As long as GW2 doesn’t close the gap between extreme bunker and extreme burst, we will continue to hear people QQ about it. They just couldn’t find the right words to explain their frustration, and it looks like they are QQing about random build.

Read more about how to make GW2 more fun:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/PvP-needs-to-be-fun-to-play-watch/first

I agree.

Sunshine.5014:

The problem with GW2 is that the balance is too extreme. Burst build can busrt too fast (often from stealth) and bunker can stay alive for too long.

The result? Newbies are constantly dying to burst builds and they can’t take down the bunker builds either. To them, it’s a frustrating experience, and that’s why you will never see an end to QQ about the extreme builds (DH that can burst you in 2s, or Druid that refuse to die 1v2)

As long as GW2 doesn’t close the gap between extreme bunker and extreme burst, we will continue to hear people QQ about it. They just couldn’t find the right words to explain their frustration, and it looks like they are QQing about random build.

Read more about how to make GW2 more fun:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/PvP-needs-to-be-fun-to-play-watch/first

You have it all wrong..it’s with practice that you “close” the gap not by expecting the devs to hold your hand all the way.

Drennon.7190:

So when DH gets gutted, who will the forum cry about?

Probably the classes DH already has trouble with in competitive pvp, Reapers, Scrappers, Revs, sometimes Mes.

Supreme.3164:

Sunshine.5014:

The problem with GW2 is that the balance is too extreme. Burst build can busrt too fast (often from stealth) and bunker can stay alive for too long.

The result? Newbies are constantly dying to burst builds and they can’t take down the bunker builds either. To them, it’s a frustrating experience, and that’s why you will never see an end to QQ about the extreme builds (DH that can burst you in 2s, or Druid that refuse to die 1v2)

As long as GW2 doesn’t close the gap between extreme bunker and extreme burst, we will continue to hear people QQ about it. They just couldn’t find the right words to explain their frustration, and it looks like they are QQing about random build.

Read more about how to make GW2 more fun:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/PvP-needs-to-be-fun-to-play-watch/first

You have it all wrong..it’s with practice that you “close” the gap not by expecting the devs to hold your hand all the way.

Can you clarify your position with logical arguments instead of just saying “you’re wrong”? I basically ignore your comments lately because you offer nothing to the discussion.

The reason why people run meta burst builds or meta bunker builds is because no other custom build works. Play the way you want? Nope, builds that are not extreme will have a hard time in this meta. Read my tenets for a fun PvP experience, and tell me what tenet you disagree with.

And before you tell me to l2p or attempt to insult me, I was top 50 of both soloq and teamq before the patch. Saying that to avoid a pointless discussion because someone might think degrading the opponents makes them win the debate.

Sunshine.5014:

Supreme.3164:

Sunshine.5014:

The problem with GW2 is that the balance is too extreme. Burst build can busrt too fast (often from stealth) and bunker can stay alive for too long.

The result? Newbies are constantly dying to burst builds and they can’t take down the bunker builds either. To them, it’s a frustrating experience, and that’s why you will never see an end to QQ about the extreme builds (DH that can burst you in 2s, or Druid that refuse to die 1v2)

As long as GW2 doesn’t close the gap between extreme bunker and extreme burst, we will continue to hear people QQ about it. They just couldn’t find the right words to explain their frustration, and it looks like they are QQing about random build.

Read more about how to make GW2 more fun:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/PvP-needs-to-be-fun-to-play-watch/first

You have it all wrong..it’s with practice that you “close” the gap not by expecting the devs to hold your hand all the way.

Can you clarify your position with logical arguments instead of just saying “you’re wrong”? I basically ignore your comments lately because you offer nothing to the discussion.

The reason why people run meta burst builds or meta bunker builds is because no other custom build works. Play the way you want? Nope, builds that are not extreme will have a hard time in this meta. Read my tenets for a fun PvP experience, and tell me what tenet you disagree with.

And before you tell me to l2p or attempt to insult me, I was top 50 of both soloq and teamq before the patch. Saying that to avoid a pointless discussion because someone might think degrading the opponents makes them win the debate.

There is no extreme bunker or burst just the wrong player with the wrong build at the wrong place.

-there is no “druid holding vs 2” but there is “2 sustain/bruiser vs druid”; there the druid is doing his job..you on the other hand are not, bunker build is made to hold but it’ll fails vs 2 burst builds and this is a fact
There is a whole rotation concept behind all this, so much to say that I’d need a whole blog page, but fact remains that there is no extreme bunker…just poor rotations or wrong builds or a combination of both

-there is no “DH one shot me” but there is “I don’t know my profession and I completely lack map awareness”.

If you’re getting one shotted by DH then:
1) Your build is squishy and you’re bad at positioning
2) Your build is tanky..but you don’t know how to dodge or what to dodge

And I don’t even know what to say about custom/meta builds..I just have different ideology, I don’t follow the crowd that’s why I win, I won’t stay here explaining this in detail so feel free to run your meta build with predictable tactics and keep losing

P.S and for last time, I don’t care to win any debate on a forum, I will keep telling people to L2P where is needed, I just dislike people who think that any problem can be solved by crying like a baby; people should actually learn to adapt rather than come here whining every time their copy/paste build fails

Power Druids (probably not even though the QQ is justified) – Condi Reaper.

Before I start, let me copy/paste my Tenets for a fun/not boring to watch games:

• 1v1 should never last more than 3 minutes
• 1v2 should never last for more than 1 minute
• 1v3 should die as soon as invul/block wear off.
• burst should never kill another class in less than 5s.

Supreme.3164:

There is no extreme bunker or burst just the wrong player with the wrong build at the wrong place.

You’re in a cute denial. It’s like people have to spell out for you how bursty a thief/mesmer/DH is, or how bunky a scrapper/tempest/druid could be.

Supreme.3164:

-there is no “druid holding vs 2” but there is “2 sustain/bruiser vs druid”; there the druid is doing his job..you on the other hand are not, bunker build is made to hold but it’ll fails vs 2 burst builds and this is a fact

There is a whole rotation concept behind all this, so much to say that I’d need a whole blog page, but fact remains that there is no extreme bunker…just poor rotations or wrong builds or a combination of both

Where is the fact? All I see is talking points, lol. You keep repeating that bunker build will fail vs 2 burst builds, and I want to see how you back it up, lol. How long does it take your 2v1 to kill a bunker scrapper/druid/herald?

Supreme.3164:

-there is no “DH one shot me” but there is “I don’t know my profession and I completely lack map awareness”.

If you’re getting one shotted by DH then:
1) Your build is squishy and you’re bad at positioning
2) Your build is tanky..but you don’t know how to dodge or what to dodge

You basically prove that extremes exist in this game. I don’t think you even realize you’re going against your arguments with your typing, lol. You even admit that DH can one shot other people.

Supreme.3164:

And I don’t even know what to say about custom/meta builds..I just have different ideology, I don’t follow the crowd that’s why I win, I won’t stay here explaining this in detail so feel free to run your meta build with predictable tactics and keep losing

And then you resorted to strawman that people complain because they follow the crowd, together with an unwarranted assumption that I keep losing (I don’t lol) and I’m running a meta build (I don’t lol).

People are discussing why PvP is not fun/frustrating because it’s too extreme. You swooped in and throwing strawman around that people are losing because of meta build. The argument is cute and childish at best.

People want to make non-meta builds more viable; that’s why they ask for a less extreme environment where you can be somewhere in the middle and not extreme burst/bunker. Your poor reading comprehensive skill makes you think people are asking to run meta builds? lol. You’re basically in agreement with the one you’re trying hard to disagree.

Supreme.3164:

P.S and for last time, I don’t care to win any debate on a forum, I will keep telling people to L2P where is needed, I just dislike people who think that any problem can be solved by crying like a baby; people should actually learn to adapt rather than come here whining every time their copy/paste build fails

And then you resort to ad hominem with the same unwarranted assumption above. Reread your whole post, you offered no substantial argument, just strawman/personal attacks and nothing to back it up. You didn’t even dare to comment on the tenets for a fun PvP experience. Furthermore, you even helped prove that extreme exists.

I think it’s safe to say you don’t have much thing to offer to the discussion?

@Sunshine…I’m speechless

Extremes sides move in opposite directions from the middle ground , they lose something but gain something else in return; extreme burst lose loads of defense while extreme bunkers lose loads of dmg.

Extreme are necessary to avoid a ridiculous bruiser celestial meta where fights last forever, a meta you seem to enjoy; bunker exist to support burst and the latter exist to negate snorefest “games”, a middle ground exists only as bridge between the two..it can’t be the centre of all game like..you can’t be serious…

Your idea that all non-meta builds should be viable is truly scary, I’m like :“just what goes through this guy head?”

I mean in a situation with several elements where any combination of these elements will inevitably lead to the same result in every situation….completely invalidate the idea of having several elements to start with…this is like basic logic.
Do you seriously think that somebody should be allowed to throw whatever in his build and go fight equally against somebody who use a build optimized for a specific encounter?…no man..I must be wrong

I don’t want to be that harsh and will I give you the benefit of doubt therefore from now we’ll say that you don’t mean “non-meta builds” but rather “variations of meta builds”

So, meta build translate to “most efficient build for the least amount of effort” therefore it makes sense that if you want to run a variation of the meta you must possess a “certain” level of knowledge of the class…otherwise you will flat out fail easily.

I can use the example of that condi guard, who months ago was whining like a madman on the forum saying how this and that were OP.
Most people managed to discern the build used by this guy : a rabid guard using a shield and toughness runes ,is this the level of non-meta build which should still be viable?, is this the level of skill of QQers on this forum?

Now to answer some of your “question”:

How long does it take your 2v1 to kill a bunker scrapper/druid/herald?

Using 2 knowledgeable players on burst builds with enough CC? Easy less than 1m, faster than any possible help which may come for the bunker and also..you need proofs? well we’d first need to see your example of 2vs1 to see the skill level intended

Thanks for a more coherent post with actual substance.

Now let me clarify a few things:

• The Cele Ele meta was a bunker meta. It needed to get nerfed, and it did get nerfed. Any meta that allows bunkers to poke it each other for 2 minutes and no one dies needs to be nerfed. That’s not fun, and that’s in my tenets above. At least the Cele meta was still better than a pure bunker meta since they still do some damage. People gonna die after a while (just really boring to play/watch).
• The June patch meta was a damage meta, not a bunker one. Even a Cele Ele at that time couldn’t stay alive for more than a minute. ANet nerfed damage a few weeks after that, and the meta turned to more and more bunkerish. That’s the sad turn we should try to revert.
• What I want is not a Cele meta. What I want is a meta that people die faster, but not extremely fast. Time to kill should be between 5s – 60s for a 1v1, with 5s being a matchup between a pro vs a below average player. And 60s being a match up for both pro players. Read my tenets above for better definition.

Supreme.3164:

Do you seriously think that somebody should be allowed to throw whatever in his build and go fight equally against somebody who use a build optimized for a specific encounter?

No, not equally, but the difference should be at most 20% lower effective, instead of being totally useless. For a well balanced game, the best top effective build shouldn’t outclass the worst build by more than 33%. If that happens, the fun factor is removed.

You seem to know Ele well, so let’s talk about Ele. Some people really enjoy the concept of Conjures. However, Cantrips is too effective, taking conjures will make you almost useless in a fight. Hence, conjures never see the light in a tournament. The same for P/P thief and other builds.

An example of what ANet did right:

• Guardian was only good at Bunker. It was too good at bunker. Teams used to have at least one for it since you could basically hold 1v2 forever.
• ANet buffed sustain damage for Guardian, allowing them to play a DPS role.
• They nerfed a bit of sustain for bunker, and buffing the DPS of other classes. Now bunker Guard can stand a 1v2 for about max 2 minutes. Which is about the right balance.

What we really need for GW2 is something like that. Scrapper bunker should be reduced. DH burst damage should be reduced. DH sustain damage should be greatly increase. Engi damage should be increase a bit. Basically, bring the extreme closer, so we can reduce a lot of unfun factors of the gameplay:

• 1v1 for more than a few minutes is unfun/boring to play/watch
• 1v2 for more than a minute is extremely unsettling to watch. If it’s 1v2, then the guy had a wrong rotation, or that his teammate doesn’t back him up well enough. The guy should die; not too quick, but should die in less than a minute.
• Sudden death is confusing/unfun to play/watch. If the audience can’t even tell why a player is dead, it’s very hard for them to enjoy watching the game. All the stealth burst/one shots like this needs to be nerfed and compensated by giving them more sustain damage.

Basically, the extreme bunker/burst meta you’re defending is the root cause of why you keep seeing so many posts QQ about the games, across classes. For the majority of people, excluding us elites, the game is unfun/confusing/sometimes boring. The audience can’t apply simple rules like “oh, that guys is about to face a 1v2, he’s in trouble!” since the guy may survive for more than a minute. The spectator camera can’t focus on a single fight like that for more than a minute, so the audience lose context, confuse, and don’t find it’s interesting to watch.

What we need is a less extreme balancing policy, so that the game is more fun, and we can see less QQ posts on the forums. The icing on the cake is that casual players can play their own non-meta builds and don’t have to feel like they are useless.

after DH is nerfed the forums will find the true source of all OP power – the almighty

D
U
M

D
U
M

D
U
M

-: S H R E D D E R . G Y R O :-

choovanski.5462:

after DH is nerfed the forums will find the true source of all OP power – the almighty
…
-: S H R E D D E R . G Y R O :-

And it will keep continue until ANet changes the balance philosophy to be less extreme. Look at the trend, most people complains about the extremes:

• OMG <some class> one shot me
• OMG <some class> is too hard to kill

What ANet needs to do is to reduce the burst, and add more sustain for those cases. Bunkers also need a reduce time to kill across the board. Until then, we will keep seeing QQ posts on the forums. People complain about the things they feel frustrating/confusing/unfun. We need to fix that.

call me old fashioned but i’m still QQing about suckhammer STILL being in unranked rotation

Man, this thread was funny and refreshing to read until sunshine and supreme started their conquest of shoving their opinions down each other’s throats.

Sunshine.5014:

The problem with GW2 is that the balance is too extreme. Burst build can busrt too fast (often from stealth) and bunker can stay alive for too long.

The result? Newbies are constantly dying to burst builds and they can’t take down the bunker builds either. To them, it’s a frustrating experience, and that’s why you will never see an end to QQ about the extreme builds (DH that can burst you in 2s, or Druid that refuse to die 1v2)

As long as GW2 doesn’t close the gap between extreme bunker and extreme burst, we will continue to hear people QQ about it. They just couldn’t find the right words to explain their frustration, and it looks like they are QQing about random build.

Read more about how to make GW2 more fun:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/PvP-needs-to-be-fun-to-play-watch/first

I agree too.

June’s trait revamp introduced a massive power creep but nothing has been toned down. Elite spec introduced another massive power creep and close to nothing has been toned down.

After the d/d ele “nerf” (4 months after they started to rule everything and everyone), they were still a top pick (almost all team had 2). Now, the build hasn’t changed but isn’t deemed OP anymore, relative to the current Elite specs. But don’t be fooled, it is still way too strong, it’s just that almost everything else (bare warrior) is even more OP.

So yeah, (almost) everything is OP. The nerf hammer has gathered enough rust and dust, it’s time to swing it hard and relentlessly.

Drennon.7190:

So when DH gets gutted, who will the forum cry about? I want to save up my tears so I can post 5 threads a day. Please don’t give me advice on fighting X class. I refuse to change my playstyle or build. If I can’t beat it without changing, it needs nerfed.

Two can play this idiotic game. A-net is awesome at balancing and they added a ton of new content and it’s all balanced right out of the box with no need to adjust anything at all. They got everything 100% right the first time around. Do you see how silly you sound yet? Also, its rich coming from someone that went to the guardian boards and cried about DH to complain about other people complaining. I swear hate the player base of this game sometimes. You know full well there is tons of stuff that need to be adjusted before the pvp season starts.

brannigan.9831:

Drennon.7190:

So when DH gets gutted, who will the forum cry about? I want to save up my tears so I can post 5 threads a day. Please don’t give me advice on fighting X class. I refuse to change my playstyle or build. If I can’t beat it without changing, it needs nerfed.

Two can play this idiotic game. A-net is awesome at balancing and they added a ton of new content and it’s all balanced right out of the box with no need to adjust anything at all. They got everything 100% right the first time around. Do you see how silly you sound yet? Also, its rich coming from someone that went to the guardian boards and cried about DH to complain about other people complaining. I swear hate the player base of this game sometimes. You know full well there is tons of stuff that need to be adjusted before the pvp season starts.

Check your own history. Even you complained about it being bad before the buffs/changes. Also I’m really curious about the bold sentence. I really have no idea what you’re trying to say or suggest.

Ragnarox.9601:

If DH gets nerfed next are Revenant -> Scrapper, Druid -> Chrono.

Maybe not in that order, but ppl will cry about them, mark my words.

I think you are close here.

If unsure, Anet will nerf another aspect of ranger.

#Realtalk

StickerHappy.8052:

If unsure, Anet will nerf another aspect of ranger.

#Realtalk

I’ve heard Rapid Fire will be called Backfire and will have 30% to heal enemy instead of damaging him.

I agree with Sunshine all the way here.
Nobody like being bursted down in 2s. Even if it happened because you didn’t react well, it’s not fun. You just need to be surprised by a teleport or stealth, get CCed a bit, and hop, you’re dead before you could react. I tell you that while I main mesmer, the class that is precisely aimed at bursting you down in 2s. But if I could trade 50% of this burst against some sustained damage (that mesmer lacks completely) I would be happy.

On the other hand, yes, nobody should live a 1v2 forever, except maybe bunkerx2 vs bunker. But if something like that happens, you probably didn’t rotate properly.

This also ties in with the problem of low HP for ele, thief and to some extent guards. The problem is that they can be bursted down to fast, forcing them to play with vitality (marauder, celestial etc…) and reducing build diversity.

I think the idea of needing diversity and “playing how you want” in PvP are both pipe dreams that people don’t want to let go. If your class has a build that is competitive, you have the option to be competitive with that build on your favored class. Odds are, this build plays to the class’s specific strengths and fulfills a particular role.

Is that not great for people? Everyone can look at a build and say “no, I want to play differently”. But you’re in a competitive game. You can’t go into DOTA 2 and combine any skill/item build on any hero and expect to be competitive. Yes, this is an MMO, so people are more attached to their character and style. But you technically can do pretty well with all kinds of different builds. You just might not win tournaments.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I think the idea of needing diversity and “playing how you want” in PvP are both pipe dreams that people don’t want to let go. If your class has a build that is competitive, you have the option to be competitive with that build on your favored class. Odds are, this build plays to the class’s specific strengths and fulfills a particular role.

Is that not great for people? Everyone can look at a build and say “no, I want to play differently”. But you’re in a competitive game. You can’t go into DOTA 2 and combine any skill/item build on any hero and expect to be competitive. Yes, this is an MMO, so people are more attached to their character and style. But you technically can do pretty well with all kinds of different builds. You just might not win tournaments.

I don’t think what you discuss here is really related to the current problem. Whenever you play a non-meta build (and there’s nothing wrong with doing that), you know what it implies: if you get smashed, it’s entirely your fault.

What triggers QQ is often just bad players, but clearly also sometimes related to the class balance. It is obvious that currently, the class balance is off. And this is expected after a big change like the elite specs. Now the question is how fast will the unbalance be corrected, and will it be corrected in the right way (i.e. not destroying the build or build diversity in general but just bringing the “OP build” to a good level).

Now as for build diversity: it is not a unicorn, it exists already. Look at guardian pre-HoT. It had “burn guard” and “bunker guard” as 2 meta builds, and the power medi was not far off. It is not difficult in principle to give to a class a set of builds that perform well in their niche, since you can just tune the different weapons and trait lines. gw2 has all it needs to have a good build system with a few potentially meta roles for each class. It only requires the devs to go through every single skill and trait and give it as much attention as was given to the elite specs. Most of the time, the community has already good suggestion on how to make a useless trait or skill not useless (and yet not OP).

Among the sea of QQ, there are good ideas and constructive comments. The qualifiers for pro league are soon, so I would not be surprised if we have a large balance patch tomorrow or next week. The elite specs will most likely still dominate the non-elite classes, but at least will be (more) balanced among each other. Then, I really (naively?) believe the devs will go back to fixing the core class for the next season.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I think the idea of needing diversity and “playing how you want” in PvP are both pipe dreams that people don’t want to let go. If your class has a build that is competitive, you have the option to be competitive with that build on your favored class. Odds are, this build plays to the class’s specific strengths and fulfills a particular role.

Is that not great for people? Everyone can look at a build and say “no, I want to play differently”. But you’re in a competitive game. You can’t go into DOTA 2 and combine any skill/item build on any hero and expect to be competitive. Yes, this is an MMO, so people are more attached to their character and style. But you technically can do pretty well with all kinds of different builds. You just might not win tournaments.

What does balance and diversity would mean in GW2 PvP? Lets use Necro as example.
→ You could support others with Blood as much as Druid.
→ You could could sustain yourself with Death and/or Reaping as good as bunker Guardian.
→ You could nuke with Spite as good as Dragonhunter.
→ You could play attrition game with Curses (Terror) as good as Chillmancer. (yay! :P)
→ etc.
so…
→ Mixing Blood with Death and Soul Reaping would give durable supporter.
→ etc.
Obviously you would have decide to do one, max two things at once because Amulet choice still would limit your stat scalling with those trait lines.

Heart seeker spam thieves will be next, kappa.

Once they get rid of the cheese that’s running off new players…like DHs…I predict that Tempest will actually get the most “attention” among players at the highest skill cap.

People are just now realizing how powerful a Tempest can be in the right hands with the right build. There are really no counters to auras and you can even use glass cannon builds that have tons of survivability if you pick traits/runes/sigils properly.

Hint…Rune of Surging and other things that give boon duration/auras will be much like might stacking celes in reverse. Auras will allow you to go mostly glass cannon build, and still have tons of uptime on shocking aura and other defensive boons. It will get the ire of players in due course. Almost unbeatable in 1v1 sustain scenarios and very powerful in point defense, tons of mobility, and group healing/boons too.

It will take awhile though before it trickles down to the masses and most aren’t good enough to utilize Tempest to its potential, so who knows when this prediction will come true…but I guarantee an ele will still be on the top tier teams.

Morwath.9817:

Cogbyrn.7283:

I think the idea of needing diversity and “playing how you want” in PvP are both pipe dreams that people don’t want to let go. If your class has a build that is competitive, you have the option to be competitive with that build on your favored class. Odds are, this build plays to the class’s specific strengths and fulfills a particular role.

Is that not great for people? Everyone can look at a build and say “no, I want to play differently”. But you’re in a competitive game. You can’t go into DOTA 2 and combine any skill/item build on any hero and expect to be competitive. Yes, this is an MMO, so people are more attached to their character and style. But you technically can do pretty well with all kinds of different builds. You just might not win tournaments.

What does balance and diversity would mean in GW2 PvP? Lets use Necro as example.
-> You could support others with Blood as much as Druid.
-> You could could sustain yourself with Death and/or Reaping as good as bunker Guardian.
-> You could nuke with Spite as good as Dragonhunter.
-> You could play attrition game with Curses (Terror) as good as Chillmancer. (yay! :P)
-> etc.
so…
-> Mixing Blood with Death and Soul Reaping would give durable supporter.
-> etc.
Obviously you would have decide to do one, max two things at once because Amulet choice still would limit your stat scalling with those trait lines.

That is a dangerous road to go down. Trying to make all classes able to have builds that can do all roles equally effective as any other class is nearly impossible to do without pure class homogenization.

I’m all for diversity in strategy but as long as Blood is different than Druid one of them is going to be invariably better. It’s far more effective for developers to give classes individual strengths and weaknesses than to try and get all of them performing all roles equally.

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

Cogbyrn.7283:

I think the idea of needing diversity and “playing how you want” in PvP are both pipe dreams that people don’t want to let go. If your class has a build that is competitive, you have the option to be competitive with that build on your favored class. Odds are, this build plays to the class’s specific strengths and fulfills a particular role.

Is that not great for people? Everyone can look at a build and say “no, I want to play differently”. But you’re in a competitive game. You can’t go into DOTA 2 and combine any skill/item build on any hero and expect to be competitive. Yes, this is an MMO, so people are more attached to their character and style. But you technically can do pretty well with all kinds of different builds. You just might not win tournaments.

What does balance and diversity would mean in GW2 PvP? Lets use Necro as example.
-> You could support others with Blood as much as Druid.
-> You could could sustain yourself with Death and/or Reaping as good as bunker Guardian.
-> You could nuke with Spite as good as Dragonhunter.
-> You could play attrition game with Curses (Terror) as good as Chillmancer. (yay! :P)
-> etc.
so…
-> Mixing Blood with Death and Soul Reaping would give durable supporter.
-> etc.
Obviously you would have decide to do one, max two things at once because Amulet choice still would limit your stat scalling with those trait lines.

That is a dangerous road to go down. Trying to make all classes able to have builds that can do all roles equally effective as any other class is nearly impossible to do without pure class homogenization.

I’m all for diversity in strategy but as long as Blood is different than Druid one of them is going to be invariably better. It’s far more effective for developers to give classes individual strengths and weaknesses than to try and get all of them performing all roles equally.

Not necessarily as long as they do each role “in their own unique way”. For example, a druid support through pure burst healing, a bunker guard has high healing and high boon support (offense and damage mitigation). A bunker chronomancer (yes, that’s a thing) does not heal much allies but support them with alacrity, quickness, blur etc… A bunker necro gives a bit of direct support (healing/down support) with a lot of enemy debuff. As long as each profession does the same role in a unique way, with different strength and weaknesses, different counters, etc… then you can have high build diversity without overlap. Also, there does not need to have perfect balance on each role. If at the end, you feel like druid support is a bit better than bunker guard, it’s fine, as long as the difference is minor enough so that a good bunker guard will do better than a above average druid.

Silverkey.2078:

As long as each profession does the same role in a unique way, with different strength and weaknesses, different counters, etc… then you can have high build diversity without overlap.

That gives great build diversity but it doesn’t make all that diversity viable.

Example:
SW:TOR already does this with their healers and tanks. i.e mando healers are single target burst healers, sages are AoE healers, and Ops are sustained healers. Jug tanks are active DcD defensives, VG tanks are passive based, and Sin tanks are avoidance based.

What happened in that game is that of the three healers and three tanks only 1 of each would ever be viable a given time because only 1 of those “unique” types would mesh well with the current meta.

That system of yours works great on paper, and is in theory balanced, but it doesn’t actually increase diversity in terms of the number of viable builds.

Crinn.7864:

What happened in that game is that of the three healers and three tanks only 1 of each would ever be viable a given time because only 1 of those “unique” types would mesh well with the current meta.

That means you have multiple viable builds which can let meta slowsly reshape rather than wait for next big patch, since you got options, which you don’t have now.

Also game you used as example has “trinity” for PvE reasons, in GW2 I believe healers and supporters are like -1 in PvE, so they don’t need to have such purposes as those in SW ;-)

Morwath.9817:

That means you have multiple viable builds which can let meta slowsly reshape rather than wait for next big patch, since you got options, which you don’t have now.

Also game you used as example has “trinity” for PvE reasons, in GW2 I believe healers and supporters are like -1 in PvE, so they don’t need to have such purposes as those in SW ;-)

It’s the same way with that game’s DPS too. i.e when I left that game all burst DPS specs where non-viable because hardswitching had been out of meta since season 2.

Your design system would be balanced if you considered “each build being desirable at some point during the game’s history” as balanced. However at a given time it means only a extremely limited number of builds are viable.

Now if you could make it so multiple diverse strategies where all viable at the same time your system would be amazing. Unfortunately that’s never happened and the conquest meta has been stagnant for a long time.

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

That means you have multiple viable builds which can let meta slowsly reshape rather than wait for next big patch, since you got options, which you don’t have now.

Also game you used as example has “trinity” for PvE reasons, in GW2 I believe healers and supporters are like -1 in PvE, so they don’t need to have such purposes as those in SW ;-)

It’s the same way with that game’s DPS too. i.e when I left that game all burst DPS specs where non-viable because hardswitching had been out of meta since season 2.

Your design system would be balanced if you considered “each build being desirable at some point during the game’s history” as balanced. However at a given time it means only a extremely limited number of builds are viable.

Now if you could make it so multiple diverse strategies where all viable at the same time your system would be amazing. Unfortunately that’s never happened and the conquest meta has been stagnant for a long time.

I’ve said it many times why CQ meta is stagnant. It’s because mode is too much focused on capping/decapping while side objectives (like killing Svarnir) often aren’t enough important to even bother with them, so perfect build doesn’t even have to be able to do objectives, but:

a) be good in sustaining and can keep point capped or prevent enemies from capping
and / or
b) be good at rotating

I believe CQ maps require a little reworks to make side objectives “harder” and be more important for victory, it could be done e.g. with completly reworking side objectives, or tweaking them (e.g. buffing Svarnir) while giving more points for doing them and reducing gains from capped points.

This way bruisers and bunkers would be less important so e.g. Minstrel Amulet wouldn’t be problem because guy who just hold point, wouldn’t have such impact as point holder but he would be rather important just as support in team fights around objectives.

Imo conquest is boring anyway, Anet should balance around SH and WvW. Super bunker builds are only good in conquest because of the circle capping mechanic.

LegallyBinding.4937:

Imo conquest is boring anyway, Anet should balance around SH and WvW. Super bunker builds are only good in conquest because of the circle capping mechanic.

When DH is nerfed by 50%

Next will be Rev then reaper

Then Scrapper and reaper

Then Druid and reaper

Then mesmer and reaper

Then ele 3 years later

Then Warrior because all the other classes will be nerfed enough for it to shine.

All the while people who are bad at the game will continue to QQ nerfing other things further.

This is the community of spvp arenanet has catered to. If there are enough tears on the forum, things will get nerfed into the ground

Druid again.
Reaper, Chrono, Herald and Scrapper will be ignored.
Then Berserket and Daredevil will be nerfed after.
:^)

Sunshine.5014:

-snip-

-Your suggestions would completely destroy what’s left of pvp in this game, the meta you propose will just change the game in a boring mid/close holding contest with high sustain builds regardless of what you nerf, nobody will ever push far anymore for fear or leaving their team behind

-If I had to put your nerf suggestions in numbers using three factors: burst/dmg/sustain
1) DH would be 10 burst, 6 dmg and 3 sustain
2) Scrapper would be 3 burst, 6 dmg and 10 sustain

With these numbers you create spectacle, there is something to watch, people dieing instantly, fast rotation

Now we apply your nerfs
1) DH would be 7 burst, 7 dmg and 5 sustain
2) Scrapper would be 6 burst, 6 dmg and 6 sustain

With these numbers you have a boring snoozefest where players poke at each other for several mins…..until you fell asleep; extreme builds exist to create….extreme situations that require quick thinking from the team to overcome them; your suggestions would slow down everything to a point where nobody ever die and the team with more condi pressure wins mid and hold

Ha because you can be certain that if you nerf burst…people will start using condi builds all over again….

The root cause of QQ threads is the unwillingness of players to change their tactics or to even start thinking at all, I don’t see under what circumstances we should sympathize with a player who rush on a contested point with a zerk build and against 1-2 dragon hunters comfortably sitting on it.

It has been shown times and times again how to beat every single build and yet here we are…

If it’d be for me I’d limit the access to pvp forum by adding a restriction script to the php file, restrict the access of any account owner with less than 2000 games in unranked/ranked and with a 50%+ win rate with the same profession

I promise you…that over 80% of current QQ threads would disappear.

Am I being anti-democratic? Yes! Because in my opinion nobody should be allowed to speak about balance with a limited knowledge of the game, many qq threads are started by players with less than 200 games on 2-3 profession, how that does that sound?

Your reading comprehensive skill needs quite a lot of improvement. Let me spell it out for you, again. Copy/pasted from my earlier post:

What I want is a meta that people die faster, but not extremely fast. Time to kill should be between 5s – 60s for a 1v1, with 5s being a matchup between a pro vs a below average player. And 60s being a match up for both pro players. Read my tenets above for better definition.

Despite the post above, you continue to strawman on the unwarranted assumption that I want a bunker meta:

Supreme.3164:

Now we apply your nerfs
1) DH would be 7 burst, 7 dmg and 5 sustain
2) Scrapper would be 6 burst, 6 dmg and 6 sustain

With these numbers you have a boring snoozefest where players poke at each other for several mins…..until you fell asleep; extreme builds exist to create….extreme situations that require quick thinking from the team to overcome them; your suggestions would slow down everything to a point where nobody ever die and the team with more condi pressure wins mid and hold

Why does it need to be 7-7-5 and 6-6-6? Why can’t it be 8-8-4, and 7-8-5?

You just try to cherry pick number to make it feel like I want to make a bunker meta, despite the fact that I stated that multiple times, in both my tenets and in various posts here, that I don’t want that. It’s you who have been defending the extreme bunker builds, and at the same time you complain that your hypothetical numbers (which is not mine) will make the game boring/sleepy because… it’s too bunker? It’s like you’re shooting at your own feet.

So, you agree with me that extreme bunkers make a boring/sleepy game then?

Supreme.3164:

Ha because you can be certain that if you nerf burst…people will start using condi builds all over again….

What the cute kitten? When did I even say anything about be certain that people will start using condi builds? I mean, if you want to strawman and put words into my mouth, at least make it to make some sense. I gave my tenets for a fun PvP environment, and I requested ANet to close the gap between extreme burst and extreme bunker. You swooped in and accuse me of being certain people will start using condi builds? lol wut?

Supreme.3164:

The root cause of QQ threads is the unwillingness of players to change their tactics or to even start thinking at all, I don’t see under what circumstances we should sympathize with a player who rush on a contested point with a zerk build and against 1-2 dragon hunters comfortably sitting on it.

In your own words, you even admit that a DH can one shot another bunker. Go back and read it. If you want to spin it to blame the victim, at least be clever to not eat your own words. Also, that’s another strawman. No one talked about rushing to 1v2 against DH with a Zerker amulet. I see that you have the habit of imagining what people say and use that in your argument. But I think you’re taking it too far into borderline delusional. Let me stress that again, rushing 1v2 against DH with a zerker amulet is obviously a bad move. No one even argues on that (didn’t even understand why you think that’s a good strawman). Now can we get back to discussing how to make 1v1 not last longer than 2 minutes?

Sunshine.5014:

Now can we get back to discussing how to make 1v1 not last longer than 2 minutes?

From my experience, 1v1’s generally don’t last longer than 2 minutes unless said players are both tanky, both hybrid, or are so equally skilled that they can’t gain ground on eachother.

Razor.9872:

Sunshine.5014:

Now can we get back to discussing how to make 1v1 not last longer than 2 minutes?

From my experience, 1v1’s generally don’t last longer than 2 minutes unless said players are both tanky, both hybrid, or are so equally skilled that they can’t gain ground on eachother.

And that’s why we need to buff sustain damage and nerf the extreme bunker. Bunker fights are boring fights.

Sunshine.5014:

And that’s why we need to buff sustain damage and nerf the extreme bunker. Bunker fights are boring fights.

What extreme bunkers? We don’t have extreme bunkers.

Ya’ll trippin.

Ragnarox.9601:

If DH gets nerfed next are Revenant -> Scrapper, Druid -> Chrono.

Maybe not in that order, but ppl will cry about them, mark my words.

that’s fine, I am all about retaliation and payback. If any of my mains get gutted, I will make sure the other classes that i dont play get gutted too. Complain often and loud enough will do some damage, what comes around goes around.

rchu.8945:

Ragnarox.9601:

If DH gets nerfed next are Revenant -> Scrapper, Druid -> Chrono.

Maybe not in that order, but ppl will cry about them, mark my words.

that’s fine, I am all about retaliation and payback. If any of my mains get gutted, I will make sure the other classes that i dont play get gutted too. Complain often and loud enough will do some damage, what comes around goes around.

That’s a toxic and generally unhealthy way to approach balance in a game. Unfortunately, I bet this is often a motivation for complaining about classes, and part of the reason why balance is a difficult target to hit.