When to leave close?

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Posted by: AlbertoUlkesh.4517

AlbertoUlkesh.4517

This is something I’m still struggling with. When I’m the one capping and holding close three things tend to happen:

  1. Somebody from the other team comes by frequently and trys to decap/cap. I feel I’m doing my job.
  2. Nobody ever comes. If I stay at close it stays capped, but I’m not helping my team elsewhere.
  3. I leave to help the team, when I see them struggle. But it seems almost always, close is then decapped/capped in what seems like a matter of seconds.

So… the last two points are the problem obviously. One leads to “Why you afk @close noob!”, the other to “Why you not stay at close noob!”

All of this either Solo Q or PUG team. I realize that with TS communication things run smoother.

Any advice?

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Posted by: Lord Hammer Hand.4815

Lord Hammer Hand.4815

this is a lose, lose to home bunker cause your nub team who cant win teamfight will blame you if you stay at home and blame you if you leave and home got decap sooo ignore them and adjust to every circumstance.

Pacific Islander Legion [NoyP]
Black Gate
Ruthless Legend

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Posted by: Meglobob.8620

Meglobob.8620

Whenever I am in a good team who win 90%+ there matches…I get told very, very, firmly, NEVER, EVER, EVER LEAVE CLOSE.

Been shouted at loads of times by my teammates for leaving close…I get bored…

Theory is bunker close, far.

Other 3 contest centre, help close if needed.

The far player is on his/her own but its usually a de-cap engineer, so he’s fine…

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Posted by: manysongsgw.2931

manysongsgw.2931

I’d say 90% of the time, it’s a bad idea to sit on any point. Part of the game is keeping numbers in mind:

5 Enemies, 4 teammates, and you.

I’m just going to provide a simple typical scenario:

Game started. You decide to cap home, 4 to mid.
Enemies do the same: 1 home, 4 mid.
Enemy caps far, mid is contested, and you cap home. What do you do now?

At this point, its better to go to mid. There’s a 4v4 occurring there and there’s always a chance your team will lose the fight… BUT if you show up to mid, it becomes a 5v4, in which the chances your team wins the fight has greatly increased.

Now if the 1 enemy decides to go far, so be it, because hopefully you can win the mid fight and cap it, and while the enemy is still spawning you can also win home. If that one enemy shows up at mid, then you have a 5v5, and that’ll tell you if your team can win fights.

The point is, it is better to cap and support your team in a fight than to stand on a point and be outnumbered somewhere else. This doesn’t mean you should ignore what the enemy is doing, keep their numbers in mind and where they may plan to go.

Guild Wars 1 Player of 4+ years
IGN: Valkyrie Friisong
Lvl 80 Warrior

(edited by manysongsgw.2931)

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Posted by: Phaeton.9582

Phaeton.9582

That’s the toughest question in the game


Phaatonn, London UK

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Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

While it’s tempting to leave close and provide a numbers advantage at mid, keep in mind there’s no guarantee of your team getting mid. You may arrive too late in which case you’re just additional fodder. And all the while, close is a free cap.

Your close point is the bedrock of your total points. It’s the one thing you can rely upon to provide you with a steady stream. Lose it, or allow it to become decapped at your peril.

This need not mean however that you have to go afk on close. In many maps you can still move around a bit, but always, always, stay near enough that you can run back immediately and beat an enemy invader.

For example on foefire, you can go close and spam damage from the ledge if possible. Every few seconds look to your right and see if someone is running in to take close. From the ledge, you can see the enemy team’s exit point and you can get a head start if someone from there decides to take close.

On temple, you can exit your close point and fight/help out at stillness if needed. But constantly look around to see who is coming in. You’re in a good position to reach tranq (possibly the only time you can abandon close temporarily).

On spirit watch, you have a nice view of the entire field and you can see people coming for miles with constant camera panning. You can quickly help out at raven and run back to close. You can also stand on the ledge at raven and look down on the battle field to see if someone’s going close.

Forest is the worst map in this regard. There’s no line of sight and there’s no way to tell if someone’s coming or not. But given that it’s also the map where the enemy can reach your close in the quickest way by taking the alternate gate, I would never advise you to leave close. You can spec to kill the creature and and try and contribute that way.

But never think that you’re not contributing by holding close. The cost is worth it. Holding close is not a job to take lightly. Your teammates are relying on you, regardless of what some ragers say. It takes patience and an understand of the map and which builds can hold close and still help elsewhere.

Note: Mesmer portal looks like a good option, but it’s not if the mesmer is the one assigned to hold close. It takes four seconds to decap a point and around 1-2 seconds for an active portal to be interactable. This means you have a window of just two seconds to spot the contested point, active portal and go back…probably with many of your skills on CD. If you’re already in the middle of a fight, there’s no way you will be able to spot a contested point in time unless you get lucky. And if you do manage to go back you’ll be exposed since the other guy will be ready to burst. Plus mesmer isn’t a good class for holding close anyway.

Finally, if you’re going close, make sure you have the tools to survive a decap engi. There’s no excuse for going close and then getting knocked off by a decap in a few seconds. You should be able to keep the point capped for at least a minute till help arrives. I realize it can be tough, but that’s the way it is. You simply have to have stability – and tons of it. You can’t call yourself a close holder without it.

An exception can be a well played terrormancer who can burst the engi down before the point is decapped. But the necro has to be really good for that.

Bottom line: Only experienced/dedicate players can hold close. And it’s not a job to be taken lightly. By defending close and still helping out within the limits of the distance you can safely travel, you might just be the single most important member of your team.

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Posted by: Simon.3794

Simon.3794

when you see one capping their home and 4 at mid, or when you have a teamate died, because then your respawned teamate can take care of home. if your team is winning at mid no point to go there, since enemy will most likely backcap. usually people dont backcap if they are winning mid fight, except when theres a specialized decapper.

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Posted by: AlbertoUlkesh.4517

AlbertoUlkesh.4517

Thanks all, those are some very good pointers. I’ll try to keep them in mind when I play next.

@bhagwad: Wow, that’s a nice comprehensive overview. Thank you!

(edited by AlbertoUlkesh.4517)

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Posted by: Solstice.1097

Solstice.1097

dont sit on close if nobody is coming there, unless you have a decent lead or if they’ve consistently been coming there repeatedly. but look at the map and see how many enemyies that you can account for their location. if some are unaccounted for, be hesitant to leave close point, and when you do, leave out the path that they would most likely be coming from, looking around carefully so as to not get quickly decapped behind you.

and then when nobody is coming and you’re leaving, let your team know “leaving home open coming mid” or whatever you’re doing.

and be ready to quickly rotate back to home point. when you enter mid fight, watch for enemy players to try to sneak away towards your home. if they are smart then when they see you they know it’s empty.

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

No good team keeps someone full-time on close. If the other team is smart, they will win every team fight at mid since your team will be outnumbered. That is a loss for you.

If you like just sitting on a point, do it on mid. No one will ever ask why are you camping mid.

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Posted by: Oblivion.8307

Oblivion.8307

No good team keeps someone full-time on close.

i did it pretty successfully.

Symbolic

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Posted by: ens.9854

ens.9854

going mid might just lead to a protracted 5v3 that takes way too long to resolve in this meta

However by staying home you run the risk of being next-leveled and your team facing 5 enemies at mid. The correct response is to rotate with a teammate that has no CD so they can either decap far or guard home. With no communication all you can do is trust them not to totally wipe… You can move up but you need to keep your eyes open so nobody slips by

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Posted by: Dahkeus.8243

Dahkeus.8243

bhagawd really nailed it. I know it feels weird to sit on a point with no incomings while your team is struggling on another point, but if you are playing the right build to hold a point (strong in 1 v 1 or a bunker), then you’re being a very strong asset to your team, particularly in solo queue.

One thing I would stress, however, is to be good on communication. If you’re sitting alone on home and you see enemy incoming that will be tough for you to hold off (outnumbers you or is a build that may counter yours), be sure to call out to your team by saying something in chat and/or pinging the map.

It’s possible your team will ignore or not pay attention to this, but your odds of holding that point go up significantly and your win percentage will reflect that.

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Posted by: Silentshoes.1805

Silentshoes.1805

If your team cannot win the mid fight without you, then you are on the losing team already. It is a helpless feeling to watch them get smashed at mid. But your running there is not the answer. And what Bhagwad said about stability is extremely important.

The Alien (condi necro),That Wreckin Crew (Mesmer)
Silentshoes (Thief), Wind of the Woods (condi ranger)

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Posted by: KarsaiB.9475

KarsaiB.9475

Reading a lot of interrestingly misleading stuff here. :/

Stapple principle that you have to keep in mind at all times : Teamfights aren’t reliable. With so much damage floating around and such short cooldowns on everything, teamfights are a pure mess and winning or losing them isn’t worth a kitten .

Now, if you don’t have teamspeak, watch your allies’ hp bar/boons/condis. If you see that they’re dying, chances are you’d be more useful helping them than being afk on close. If you come too late however, don’t run in, you’ll be a freekill and 5 more points for the ennemy. Also the thief or w/e roamer will have prolly left already to decap your close > lose lose situation. In soloQ, most ppl have more success pushing far after capping close instead of being afk there, as it gives them more control of the situation, also utilizing actively your assets to win the game, instead of letting fate decide wether or not you win or lose.

Now, in a teamQ scenario, same rules apply. If your mates are struggling (struggling, not dieing) on mid, go help them out. If you have cc abilities and are rather fast to move around, you can also apply pressure on the ennemy close (same rule when you’re holding close while your team pushes far. Just push mid in this case).
Finally, it is sometimes best to stay close, especially like after an ennemy wipe, or if they only have 3 of their players vs your 4 teammates mid (communication !!). Until you have a full scout, stick around. But don’t afk on node regardless ! Do useful scouting. On forest, go towards beach for example and check for ennemies crossing there. The earliest you see ppl moving the better. Go generally in between points to have a better overview and keep track of the overall situation. If one guy is respawning and the 4 others are already on the map, follow him ! Wherever he goes. You have a full scout and your close is thus fully safe, even tho you’re not there yourself.
Finally, when the situation occurs that say your team is fighting 4v4 on far point and ennemy thief is going for a decap on your close, don’t chase. Trade points with him. Get mid for free. It’s better to cap it a few seconds after the thief caps your close than having it ticking for free for the ennemy while you fight on a neutral point vs a thief, away from your teammates. Repeat the process as long as necessary. Nodes > kills > deaths. It also works the same way the other way around. If you’re the thief, avoid a risky duel and go decap the other free node, as you’re fastest and will get a couple extra points. And repeat as long as possible.

As a reminder, while your mates are teamfighting, you’re the one that has to have the bigger picture in mind and react accordingly (through counting numbers, etc).

Hope that helps, feel free to message me ingame for more infos.

EDIT : I realise this isn’t the most helpful for soloQ, but as ppl said, soloQ is rly random and helpless at times, and that’s why I stopped playing it overall. As a general tip if you try to form up a team and play as best as possible : It is better to stale the teamfights to win lightly defended nodes. If you can win a fight, obviously, take it. But don’t make your strategy revolve around winning teamfights, it isn’t the right way to go in my opinion. Nodes > kills.

55 HP Monks // Random scrubadub

(edited by KarsaiB.9475)

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Posted by: infantrydiv.1620

infantrydiv.1620

This^

Ranger//Necro

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

What KarsaiB said is excellent advice for the tanky meta that we are in now, where fights drag on forever and getting decapped is a big loss for your team.

However, if you happen to be fighting with teams that are bursty, you have more freedom, and even reason to leave home-point to win a teamfight, as winning a teamfight will lead to snowballing and wrecking the other team. If you get decapped but a quick fight will allow you to get your point back, the risk of losing your point isn’t as high as wiping in a teamfight.

Thus, to add to what KarsaiB said, the proper play really depends on the matchup/meta that you are playing.

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Posted by: dimyzuka.7051

dimyzuka.7051

No good team keeps someone full-time on close.

i did it pretty successfully.

owned.

+1 for dueling in the mists.
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch

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Posted by: Seifer Thalaen.7869

Seifer Thalaen.7869

simple, if your team is decent they should win even temfights, you just need to leave when they are outnumbered, usually the most risky time to leave close is when you dunno where their thief is, a good thief will always decap your point as soon as you leave it for more than 20 secs. That’s why back when pvp still had a minimum sense mesmer with portal was best choice for close, you could basically cover 2 points being able to move 2-3 player there istantly if needed…but braindead wars, decap engis and whatever pushed mesmers outside…you just see random wars/rangers afking there 24/7 now

(edited by Seifer Thalaen.7869)

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Posted by: DanyK.3842

DanyK.3842

Look at minimap → see 5 enemy icons → leave close or on Forest you can just cross towards the beach to keep track of enemy close holder, if you see someone go down on your team in 4v4 it’s ideal to fall back. You can always go far if you can win 1v1 on it and mid is 4v4. You can generally leave close if one of your team mates is about to respawn and you’re outnumbered on close.
I also leave close when there’s a decap engi because they make me alt+f4 once my stability runs out. It’s better to just trade points and run far then.

Sir Dany | Twitch
110k WvW kills | Champion Legionnaire, Paragon |

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Posted by: Rezz.8019

Rezz.8019

This is the hardest question in the whole game. Just keep asking yourself how useful you are to the team at each moment of the match and see how you can be more useful. That way you will know if you are more useful at can stay on close points or you should go somewhere else. What you want is to have the odds ever be in your favour. That means you should always make sure the match is 5v5 or 5v>5 and for that, each member of your team has to do stuff and contribute the team at every moment of the match.

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Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

This is the hardest question in the whole game. Just keep asking yourself how useful you are to the team at each moment of the match and see how you can be more useful. That way you will know if you are more useful at can stay on close points or you should go somewhere else. What you want is to have the odds ever be in your favour. That means you should always make sure the match is 5v5 or 5v>5 and for that, each member of your team has to do stuff and contribute the team at every moment of the match.

But that requires a lot of cold unemotional thinking. Contrary to what most think, just sitting tight on close can be the hardest thing to do. People feel guilty and want to help. And often ruin the outcome of the whole match.

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Posted by: Solstice.1097

Solstice.1097

Never leave home when you have a good lead going and your team has been successful in the team fights.

And once you’re at the point where the points you need to win are less than 1/2 of what your enemy needs, turtle the hell out of that close point because if you hold it you literally can’t lose…. (not counting legacy lord or tranquility or some map mechanic)

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Posted by: Silentshoes.1805

Silentshoes.1805

It’s too bad we only have anecdotes and opinions rather than any hard statistics from controlled experiments to know what usually works best.

ArenaNet made a complex, great game for well-organized, knowledgeable teams.

But for a random group with little communication, it’s really hard to make the right choice on whether to stay or run to a team fight.

The thing is, if your team cannot win an even team fight, then they won’t be able to take or defend any node that is contested. They then have to just run around and cap and recap undefended nodes as fast as possible. Because whenever they have opposition, they will lose the node.

The Alien (condi necro),That Wreckin Crew (Mesmer)
Silentshoes (Thief), Wind of the Woods (condi ranger)

(edited by Silentshoes.1805)

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Posted by: Dahkeus.8243

Dahkeus.8243

EDIT : I realise this isn’t the most helpful for soloQ, but as ppl said, soloQ is rly random and helpless at times, and that’s why I stopped playing it overall. As a general tip if you try to form up a team and play as best as possible : It is better to stale the teamfights to win lightly defended nodes. If you can win a fight, obviously, take it. But don’t make your strategy revolve around winning teamfights, it isn’t the right way to go in my opinion. Nodes > kills.

If you’re not doing solo Q, you can just ask on voice chat: “Need help at mid or should I stay here?”

=P

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Posted by: kylwilson.9137

kylwilson.9137

This is the hardest question in the whole game. Just keep asking yourself how useful you are to the team at each moment of the match and see how you can be more useful. That way you will know if you are more useful at can stay on close points or you should go somewhere else. What you want is to have the odds ever be in your favour. That means you should always make sure the match is 5v5 or 5v>5 and for that, each member of your team has to do stuff and contribute the team at every moment of the match.

But that requires a lot of cold unemotional thinking. Contrary to what most think, just sitting tight on close can be the hardest thing to do. People feel guilty and want to help. And often ruin the outcome of the whole match.

I don’t really equate it to cold and unemotional. It’s just using the data displayed on the map and your team health-bars and rotating as quickly as possible in reaction to the changing situation.

A bunker shouldn’t be at home the entire game, it’s all shades of grey. Conquest is about creating situations of disadvantage, after all, that should be the priority.
A bunker sitting at home from start to finish will not benefit the team, at some point it’s going to be a 4 vs 5 somewhere on the map, and a skilled bunker could have made the difference. As Rezz said, no matter what role, know where you will be the most useful.

Be flexible, reactive, proactive and develop no habits. All just comes with experience really.

\o/

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Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

This is the hardest question in the whole game. Just keep asking yourself how useful you are to the team at each moment of the match and see how you can be more useful. That way you will know if you are more useful at can stay on close points or you should go somewhere else. What you want is to have the odds ever be in your favour. That means you should always make sure the match is 5v5 or 5v>5 and for that, each member of your team has to do stuff and contribute the team at every moment of the match.

But that requires a lot of cold unemotional thinking. Contrary to what most think, just sitting tight on close can be the hardest thing to do. People feel guilty and want to help. And often ruin the outcome of the whole match.

I don’t really equate it to cold and unemotional. It’s just using the data displayed on the map and your team health-bars and rotating as quickly as possible in reaction to the changing situation.

A bunker shouldn’t be at home the entire game, it’s all shades of grey. Conquest is about creating situations of disadvantage, after all, that should be the priority.
A bunker sitting at home from start to finish will not benefit the team, at some point it’s going to be a 4 vs 5 somewhere on the map, and a skilled bunker could have made the difference. As Rezz said, no matter what role, know where you will be the most useful.

Be flexible, reactive, proactive and develop no habits. All just comes with experience really.

It depends on mobility as well. If you see a situation you can help with, unless you can reach there in 5 seconds, don’t bother going. Likely you’ll end up being fodder. Bunkers usually have poor mobility and arriving 15 seconds later is worse than not showing up.

More, far more games have been lost by a bunker leaving close undefended and having the point capped seconds later than by one who nurses home and helps out in any way they can without compromising the ability to run back in time to prevent a decap.

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Posted by: Eurantien.4632

Eurantien.4632

Long long ago, I decided to main ranger. Which stuck me in the home point defender position and I hated it for this very reason. However, after too many hours played it’s I find the decision isn’t that difficult. The hardest part about home point is that you have to be thinking about everyone’s movements.

We can use Forest as an example. Lets say you cap home first, then what? Well, if your team sent 4 to mid and their team did the same (you can now see the icons on the minimap) then you have to worry if the guy capping their home is going to go mid to help, stay where he is, or come to your point. Most of the time, going far is a bad situation in solo queue because you don’t have the comms to say “hey, x is on respawn, you have 15s before he comes in and kill you”.

The right decision is to always leave the node but not too far, kitten, then make the right decision. Ideally, someone should leave out the side gate to beach to engage any crossers at least to give your team a heads up. If not, check the tunnel, if you seen nobody then go to under the keep, if you see your team’s health dropping low then you should probably help, if someone dies in the team fight before you get there then ideally, they will watch home on respawn allowing you to help where needed. If their home point goes straight to mid, then you have the option to either help in that 4 v 5 or go back cap, that decision is dependent on both teams health, composition, and your ability to sway the fight. If you choose to go to mid, then before you do glance over at beach, make sure their home point isn’t going for a back cap. If so, go back and defend. If you don’t see him, check mini map to make sure they aren’t taking their boss, if they are then steal, back cap, or help mid.

As you can see, most of these decisions end up with you going mid. When you do, do your best to stay back on your side of the stairs so you can constantly glance over towards the bottom of keep/the beach to make sure no one is going to back cap. If you see someone, go defend home (you only need to do this if there is one unaccounted for). In the scenario that you start losing the fight at mid, you should bail out and get to home. In the scenario that someone is already on the way to your home and they will get a decap then you should either win mid fast, or bail to far. If you are losing mid and someone somehow gets to your home under your keen eyes and there are 4 accounted for at mid then you should go to far because it will be a free cap.

In my opinion, it is always good to leave home. There is nothing I hate more than the other team having a double cap while we have someone sitting on home. That is why I believe the best scenario is to go mid but keep an eye on home so that you can get back there when you need to. But remember. HOME POINT IS NOT YOU ONLY JOB, this is a team game. Sometimes the best move to do as a home point defender is to go far. Keep in mind though, going to far is often a death sentence because it is easy for the other team to collapse on you if they are watching. In the event that someone is just pure trolling far. Then take their home point.

I know this isn’t a straight forward answer, but I think it is one of the best you might get. In the event the map is foefire, do the same thing, just stay on your half of graveyard/up on the ledge as long as you can keep damage up. For kyhlo just stand on the window ledge. For temple, the home point is in more of a chicken game with the their home point (staring contest with a bit of poking at each other). On temple, if you have a good 1 v 1 spec or have good harass and good escape then always push far but if you die the map can easily snowball so it is a bit riskier than the chicken game. For spirit watch, if you are gonna home point then something with 1500 range is awesome to just cover the orb, but realistically, you can just go to raven or roam wherever on spirit watch since you can practically see everyone all the time. Skyhammer is bogus.

Hope this helps!

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Posted by: AlbertoUlkesh.4517

AlbertoUlkesh.4517

I find it hard to judge the situation by minimap, when there’s more than one Mesmer on the opposing team…

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Posted by: Psychol.5783

Psychol.5783

IMHO if your team is good then rotting at home won’t do any harm but if they suck then even in 5 vs 4 you’ll lose. Usually I’m leaving home when our team is heavily losing to prevent farming on us.

(edited by Psychol.5783)