Why haven’t we seen an improvement on GW2’s PvP yet?
We’re still stuck with one Game Mode: Conquest. Even if it’s not a bad game mode, it simply cannot stand on it’s own. It is heavily based on capturing bases. Engaging in an actually challenging PvP fight is rarely beneficial for the team and one side usually ends up outnumbering the other after a while. It’s fine as a strategic Game Mode, but not as the only Game Mode as it barely provokes good PvP battles where your PvP skills matters.
Then there is the lack of variety. The Secondary Objectives where meant to solve this, but it is still Conquest one way or the other. So far we’ve seen small improvements, such as new maps (which I personally think has great map design) but it feels like the PvP barely gets any development time.
On the topic of adding additional Game Modes something like Capture the Flag could be considered as it, compared to Conquest, focuses on a much smaller amount of objectives. Either it could be a single flag, or it could be one at either side of the map at the opposite team’s base (which would add an element of hostility and danger as you approach their base).
But a more important option would be to add Team Deathmatch on a small map, just like a gladiator arena form ancient Rome! The PvP combat is already balanced around 4-8 players on each team so tweaking the balance to work for this format as well shouldn’t be all that difficult.
The reason why these Team Deathmatch Arenas would be such an important and needed feature is that it adds a lot of depth to the PvP combat and raise the skill cap further. If one member of your Team is Defeated, you’re in some serious trouble which makes it key to kill one of them off while making sure that your Team Mates are alive and out of lethal danger. In this format, knowing your opponent would benefit you a lot and that’s where a ton of depth comes from.
How long will the Thief be in Stealth and when should I dodge his opener? Will the Guardian be able to block this attack using Aegis… Maybe I could make him use it without launching my real burst? Should I save my Blowback for the Warrior with that nasty Axe in his secondary Weapon Set, or to interrupt that Mesmer’s Utility Skill that I know that he has?
This is the kind of depth in the PvP combat that isn’t present at this time! This is what MMO PvP should be all about!
And then there’s another issue: The reward system is dull and just not engaging. If you really want that reward at the end of the round, the match becomes massively more interesting and engaging. You care if you win or lose and that adds a lot of tension! In addition, if you’re working towards an item then the journey, in this case playing PvP, becomes a lot more enjoyable. This is a big reason why PvP in this game is as boring as it is, even with great combat design – It isn’t engaging.
(edited by Phadde.7362)
GW1 has some astonishing pvp. It shouldn’t be that hard to introduce something like Hall of Heroes or at least Team Arenas. Game mechanics are excellent in GW2, but as a hardcore PvP player in GW1, I am expecting more.
put the game mechanics from GW1 into GW2, problem solved.
deathmatch is pretty boring and would bring many balancing issues.
deathmatch is pretty boring and would bring many balancing issues.
How so? People constantly say the game isn’t balanced around 1v1. I think the game would be “perfectly” balanced around a 5v5. It’d be no different then the large scale team fights that often take place at mid in Legacy of Foefire. A team arena (citing gw1) would be a great addition to the game. Even if it didn’t get “esport” attention, it would still keep casuals entertained a lot more then running in circles. It would also add depth and new build variety. All the sudden maybe venom thieves aren’t so bad since your 4 teammates are always nearby. Maybe this team wants to go condition heavy and run a trap ranger, Hgh engie and 2 epidemic necros with a guardian anchor. This would actually require thought rather then just running w/e build is good by itself. The only things they would need to do is balance Elites out, and that could be easily solved if you make it a best out of three where the CD carries through to the next round/s
2v2
3v3
5v5
As much as I loved Arathi Basin, I am sick and tired of conquest.
Or something similar to GvG. Take Legacy of the Foefire, remove the nodes and make the main objective to be about killing the guild lord. Give each player 3 or 5 lives for respawning and if every player on a team can no longer respawn then the other team wins. Put a secondary objective on the graveyard like a trebuchet or a node that gives 1 life to the team that holds it every 2 minutes then add a few monk, archer npcs and we’re set.
Someone had suggested a new game type a long while back, I cant be bothered to necro the thread. Basically it was a moba style GW2 map.
Take Foefire, and add spawning creep waves that will attack each other, then the fortress walls, and eventually your lord.
Or something like that. In any case it sounded like a cool idea.
How long will the Thief be in Stealth and when should I dodge his opener? Will the Guardian be able to block this attack using Aegis… Maybe I could make him use it without launching my real burst? Should I save my Blowback for the Warrior with that nasty Axe in his secondary Weapon Set, or to interrupt that Mesmer’s Utility Skill that I know that he has?
This is the kind of depth in the PvP combat that isn’t present at this time! This is what MMO PvP should be all about!
I don’t get how the game mode makes this any different than it already is. Just because the game mode is conquest doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be thinking about these things. I just don’t understand what you’re trying to say.
Also, about deathmatch/arenas: it would not be good for this game. This game was not meant for that. I played WoW arenas, and I loved them to death in earlier expansions of the game. But the way this game works, specifically in that it lacks healers, it would not come close to WoW arenas.
A lot of people don’t like conquest because it promotes bunkers, and fighting around points. Well, no matter what game mode you play you’re going to run into things that are “the best.” Arenas/deathmatch would be complete AoE spam and stealth spam. Melee would not be viable. Furthermore, it would be a constant zerg one target until it’s dead, then move to the next one. It would not be as great as a lot of you think it would be.
Having objective based game modes like conquest adds a level of depth to the game that arenas/deathmatch will never reach. Anet does a really good job with the idea of secondary objectives, and it’ll be really cool to see what they come up with in the future. You can say only having 1 game mode is boring, but there should only be 1 competitive game mode. Plenty of competitive games have survived with just 1 game mode. Custom arenas will hopefully allow you to have deathmatch servers, and hopefully lots of different options to make things fun.
1# don’t get how the game mode makes this any different than it already is. Just because the game mode is conquest doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be thinking about these things. I just don’t understand what you’re trying to say.
2# Also, about deathmatch/arenas: it would not be good for this game. This game was not meant for that. I played WoW arenas, and I loved them to death in earlier expansions of the game. But the way this game works, specifically in that it lacks healers, it would not come close to WoW arenas.
3# A lot of people don’t like conquest because it promotes bunkers, and fighting around points. Well, no matter what game mode you play you’re going to run into things that are “the best.” Arenas/deathmatch would be complete AoE spam and stealth spam. Melee would not be viable. Furthermore, it would be a constant zerg one target until it’s dead, then move to the next one. It would not be as great as a lot of you think it would be.
4# Having objective based game modes like conquest adds a level of depth to the game that arenas/deathmatch will never reach. Anet does a really good job with the idea of secondary objectives, and it’ll be really cool to see what they come up with in the future. You can say only having 1 game mode is boring, but there should only be 1 competitive game mode. Plenty of competitive games have survived with just 1 game mode. Custom arenas will hopefully allow you to have deathmatch servers, and hopefully lots of different options to make things fun.
1# Thinking about those things will help you a lot when in combat versus other opponents. The thing is that It doesn’t matters all that much in Conquest, since it isn’t about the PvP combat – it’s about capturing bases. In Conquest, what ends up happening when you’re in a fight is that either one side gets outnumbered or someone leaves the fight. The focus isn’t about the PvP combat, but in Arenas it is. The combat system, and this in depth focus on the opponent isn’t encouraged to be utilized to the fullest in the present PvP mode.
2# I’ve quite a bit of knowledge about the Arenas in World of Warcraft and it would be a similar game mode. I have to argue that I think that an Arena format in Guild Wars 2 would work better than in World of Warcraft, especially because of the lack of healers. Do have in mind that the Holy Trinity in World of Warcraft was designed for PvE content – PvP wasn’t introduced until later on and Arenas came a few years later. There is plenty of Arena Teams that runs without a healer and form what I’ve seen most people prefer not to be up against a healer. Then you’ve to consider that the Professions in Guild Wars 2 is designed to work without the Holy Trinity and without a healer. Instead, combat is based around the following elements: Damage, Support and Control. The Combat system is in fact a lot more skill based than in World of Warcraft and a lot more fleshed out. Just because something was a big feature in another MMO doesn’t mean that it’s necessary – or even beneficial for this MMO.
3# Your point is that there will be “The Best Builds”? There will always be that and don’t tell me that this was a lesser issue in World of Warcraft!
How would an AoE spam even be beneficial? Stealth isn’t that hard to counter and you’ve to consider that this would be a much more organized fight with organized teams – if something makes you lose games, you can easily build around it. How wouldn’t Melee be viable? Every profession has a lot of snares, CC and gap-closers to use if they use melee weapons. As you might have noticed, fights between players in this game happens to keep them a lot closer together than in World of Warcraft.
“It would be a constant Zerg one target unil it’s dead.” Well, if you by Zerg mean to try to take one target down while keeping your teammates alive in order to make the other team a lot weaker, then yes! This is the main goal in World of Warcraft Arenas as well, isn’t it?
4# I have to strongly argue against the statement that conquest has a depth that an Arena Deathmatch mode will never reach! The definitive importance of your teammates survival and the importance to kill off the enemy team while keeping your eyes open to counter/avoid/suppress devastating enemy attacks and skills adds so much depth to the PvP combat itself that I doubt that even the top-tier players would be able to know every possible mechanic of the opponents builds and playstyles. Conquest is about positioning your team around the map with the occasional combat (that’s more about the number of players on one side or whether one should leave just to take another base). It is simple in comparison.
(edited by Phadde.7362)
Ye I agree that a pure deathmatch wouldn’t work. They build the entire game around conquest (kinda). Anyway, I like conquest but I’m the minority, I guess?
Ye I agree that a pure deathmatch wouldn’t work. They build the entire game around conquest (kinda). Anyway, I like conquest but I’m the minority, I guess?
How exactly did they build the combat mechanics and Professions around Conquest – And not around PvP combat? The combat mechanics wasn’t built around positioning your team on a map (which is mostly what Conquest would be without the combat) but rather around having 5v5 on a large map while fighting over objectives.
How this makes something like a ~5v5 Arena format impossible to work is beyond me.
1# Thinking about those things will help you a lot when in combat versus other opponents. The thing is that It doesn’t matters all that much in Conquest, since it isn’t about the PvP combat – it’s about capturing bases. In Conquest, what ends up happening when you’re in a fight is that either one side gets outnumbered or someone leaves the fight. The focus isn’t about the PvP combat, but in Arenas it is. The combat system, and this in depth focus on the opponent isn’t encouraged to be utilized to the fullest in the present PvP mode.
you are wrong her.
you still have to be able to fight off people 1v1 / 2v2 / 3v3 / 4v4 / 5v5 where the knowledge of how matchups between classes and specs work out.
the pvp combat is the basis of conquest. you can call it micro or anything of that sort.
the objectives are where actual strategy comes into play. you could call that macro.
a teamdeathmatche gamemode removes the entire macro and puts heavy emphasis on micro. now you could try to argue that the skillcealing of how good you can controle your own class is raised heavly by that. however there is no reason to belive that a 5v5 in the middle of the map is harder to play than a 3v3 on the middle node.
actually the 3v3 would be harder since you constantly have to think about how effective your presence on the map is right now and how you could be even more efficient.
in the end you are suggesting to drop the whole dynamic that conquest offers for no dynamic at all.
4# I have to strongly argue against the statement that conquest has a depth that an Arena Deathmatch mode will never reach! The definitive importance of your teammates survival and the importance to kill off the enemy team while keeping your eyes open to counter/avoid/suppress devastating enemy attacks and skills adds so much depth to the PvP combat itself that I doubt that even the top-tier players would be able to know every possible mechanic of the opponents builds and playstyles. Conquest is about positioning your team around the map with the occasional combat (that’s more about the number of players on one side or whether one should leave just to take another base). It is simple in comparison.
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you are assuming that there is now fighting in conquest mode.
all those things you mentioned have to be accounted for in conquest while managing positioning on the map.
i don’t see how you would have to be any better in playing your class for tdm than for conquest. with tdm the game boils down to who focuses better, dodges more skills, stacks more boons ect. all those things are already present in conquest.
It wouldn’t only put heavy weight on how skillfully you play your profession, but also how you can support your teammates and how to control your opponents. You NEED your Teammates to survive, they’re not going to respawn at a base nearby, they’re dead! You NEED to be able to avoid that incoming burst, because if you don’t, you’re team is one man down and that’s a Huge disadvantage and will likely lead to a lost match. This is what adds the tension and this is what encourages skillful play a lot more that Conquest ever will. In Conquest, if it isn’t time efficient to try to defeat your opponents at the base, you just leave the base and capture another. If you die, it’s generally not good, but you can just respawn.
Playing in a 3v3 format would indeed put more pressure on you compared to in a 5v5 format. . . I don’t know what you’re trying to say by that.
The “Macro” in Conquest (Running around capturing bases I assume) wouldn’t be present. If you want some additional map positioning-strategies, just add in a few traps and dynamic terrain that’s activated after an indication.
The “Micro” in Conquest would be the “Macro”, what the Game Mode would be all about. But since it’s just the “Micro” in Conquest, this deep and highly skillful combat that an Arena Format would provide and strongly encourage just isn’t all that vital in Conquest. It is generally more useful for your team to either outnumber whoever is taking your base or just leave and capture another.
There is place for a Game Mode where it’s mostly about capturing bases, but it shouldn’t be the only Game Mode. A Game Mode where your actual skills in combat and your knowledge of the game’s mechanics is vital should be present. A Game Mode that’s about organized, skillful and strategic Players versus Players should be in an MMO with such a good combat and design philosophy.
(edited by Phadde.7362)
Someone had suggested a new game type a long while back, I cant be bothered to necro the thread. Basically it was a moba style GW2 map.
Take Foefire, and add spawning creep waves that will attack each other, then the fortress walls, and eventually your lord.
Or something like that. In any case it sounded like a cool idea.
This should definitely be experimented on a weekend and such just like the Beta events had some fun pvp events at the end. They should introduce this mode and see how it goes. They have nothing to lose.
Someone had suggested a new game type a long while back, I cant be bothered to necro the thread. Basically it was a moba style GW2 map.
Take Foefire, and add spawning creep waves that will attack each other, then the fortress walls, and eventually your lord.
Or something like that. In any case it sounded like a cool idea.
This should definitely be experimented on a weekend and such just like the Beta events had some fun pvp events at the end. They should introduce this mode and see how it goes. They have nothing to lose.
Agreed
Historically, GW2 promised to become an esport, and don’t want to release multiple PvP types because this could divide the community (and subtract from viewer interest and such)
Looking back now, it’s apparent Gw2 will not be an esport. An alternate theory begins to emerge, gw2PvP lacks depth because arena net didn’t spend any real money developing it, and never will. They dedicated just enough money to scam gw1 pPvP fans into buying their game and otherwise don’t care. That is why.
Historically, GW2 promised to become an esport, and don’t want to release multiple PvP types because this could divide the community (and subtract from viewer interest and such)
Looking back now, it’s apparent Gw2 will not be an esport. An alternate theory begins to emerge, gw2PvP lacks depth because arena net didn’t spend any real money developing it, and never will. They dedicated just enough money to scam gw1 pPvP fans into buying their game and otherwise don’t care. That is why.
I just think that this is yet another argument to add this Game Mode. Look at World of Warcraft – The majority of the players that takes PvP seriously plays their Arena Game Mode. That’s with combat mechanics that’s very inferior to that of Guild Wars 2.
(edited by Phadde.7362)
Historically, GW2 promised to become an esport, and don’t want to release multiple PvP types because this could divide the community (and subtract from viewer interest and such)
Looking back now, it’s apparent Gw2 will not be an esport. An alternate theory begins to emerge, gw2PvP lacks depth because arena net didn’t spend any real money developing it, and never will. They dedicated just enough money to scam gw1 pPvP fans into buying their game and otherwise don’t care. That is why.
I just think that this is yet another argument to add this Game Mode. Look at World of Warcraft – Arenas are an actual ESport and the majority of the players that takes PvP seriously plays their Arena Game Mode. That’s with combat mechanics that’s very inferior to that of Guild Wars 2.
wow is not esport man, sorry. 3/4 years ago it could be considered a semi esport but not right now.
(edited by ahuba.6430)
I stand corrected. I haven’t played for quite some time, but I occasionally watch a PvP match once in a while.
Historically, GW2 promised to become an esport, and don’t want to release multiple PvP types because this could divide the community (and subtract from viewer interest and such)
Looking back now, it’s apparent Gw2 will not be an esport. An alternate theory begins to emerge, gw2PvP lacks depth because arena net didn’t spend any real money developing it, and never will. They dedicated just enough money to scam gw1 pPvP fans into buying their game and otherwise don’t care. That is why.
I think That “scam” is a bit of a strong word for it. But I do understand were you come from. I still think the game could be salvaged, if they looked into balance and moved closer to the true and tested trinity. God knows the only thing actually missing from it is a proper healer class/build/weapon, other than that, everything is already there, thus the balance issues.
Tank? – Can spec a warrior to have about 3000 power, 60% crit, 30k hp, 500hp Regen per sec, cant get into melee for the life of me, but if that does not scream tank i dont know what does. I bet the guardian can do something similar.
Caster/Kiter? – Mesmers, Rogues, Eles, Engi, Necros
Dps – Thief, Ranger, Melee sucks, but Thief can close in for the kill with HS
The only thing missing is a true Healer/support, hence its like trying to dive a 3 wheel car.
(edited by Apolo.5942)
I’d love to see TDM, KC, Hard Point, HQ, CTF, etc…
One can only dream.
Historically, GW2 promised to become an esport, and don’t want to release multiple PvP types because this could divide the community (and subtract from viewer interest and such)
Looking back now, it’s apparent Gw2 will not be an esport. An alternate theory begins to emerge, gw2PvP lacks depth because arena net didn’t spend any real money developing it, and never will. They dedicated just enough money to scam gw1 pPvP fans into buying their game and otherwise don’t care. That is why.
I think That “scam” is a bit of a strong word for it. But I do understand were you come from. I still think the game could be salvaged, if they looked into balance and moved closer to the true and tested trinity. God knows the only thing actually missing from it is a proper healer class/build/weapon, other than that, everything is already there, thus the balance issues.
Tank? – Can spec a warrior to have about 3000 power, 60% crit, 30k hp, 500hp Regen per sec, cant get into melee for the life of me, but if that does not scream tank i dont know what does. I bet the guardian can do something similar.
Caster/Kiter? – Mesmers, Rogues, Eles, Engi, Necros
Dps – Thief, Ranger, Melee sucks, but Thief can close in for the kill with HSThe only thing missing is a true Healer/support, hence its like trying to dive a 3 wheel car.
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2# I’ve quite a bit of knowledge about the Arenas in World of Warcraft and it would be a similar game mode. I have to argue that I think that an Arena format in Guild Wars 2 would work better than in World of Warcraft, especially because of the lack of healers. Do have in mind that the Holy Trinity in World of Warcraft was designed for PvE content – PvP wasn’t introduced until later on and Arenas came a few years later. There is plenty of Arena Teams that runs without a healer and form what I’ve seen most people prefer not to be up against a healer. Then you’ve to consider that the Professions in Guild Wars 2 is designed to work without the Holy Trinity and without a healer. Instead, combat is based around the following elements: Damage, Support and Control. The Combat system is in fact a lot more skill based than in World of Warcraft and a lot more fleshed out. Just because something was a big feature in another MMO doesn’t mean that it’s necessary – or even beneficial for this MMO.
JQ and FA pl0x.
GW1 has some astonishing pvp. It shouldn’t be that hard to introduce something like Hall of Heroes or at least Team Arenas. Game mechanics are excellent in GW2, but as a hardcore PvP player in GW1, I am expecting more.
But that takes time, and time is money, and Anet is silly so decided to forget about making money with PvP…
The game was destined to flounder.
I’m not sure we need another game mode why can’t we just make killing more valuable by increasing the ammount of points for kills from 5 to 10 say. Pleny of other games have used conquest type maps but Ive never seen one where holding points is rewarded so much versus killing.
We’re still stuck with one Game Mode: Conquest. Even if it’s not a bad game mode, it simply cannot stand on it’s own. It is heavily based on capturing bases. Engaging in an actually challenging PvP fight is rarely beneficial for the team and one side usually ends up outnumbering the other after a while. It’s fine as a strategic Game Mode, but not as the only Game Mode as it barely provokes good PvP battles where your PvP skills matters.
I agree that it would be fun to have a variety of game modes (CTF, Defense/Offense, etc) but I disagree with you in that conquest does not promote good pvp skills (see below).
But a more important option would be to add Team Deathmatch on a small map, just like a gladiator arena form ancient Rome!
The reason why these Team Deathmatch Arenas would be such an important and needed feature is that it adds a lot of depth to the PvP combat and raise the skill cap further. If one member of your Team is Defeated, you’re in some serious trouble which makes it key to kill one of them off while making sure that your Team Mates are alive and out of lethal danger. In this format, knowing your opponent would benefit you a lot and that’s where a ton of depth comes from.
This argument holds for all team PVP game modes so I fail to see how it adds depth only to the team DM game mode.
DM works well in games like Halo and CoD because everyone can shoot a gun from a distance which promotes movement, cover, positioning, skill with certain weapon-types all across the entire playable map. A game with melee-focused characters is going to require them to clump up. It’s part of the reason why I never enjoyed the arena in WoW. While I am glad other people had fun with arenas, it wasn’t fun for me.
How long will the Thief be in Stealth and when should I dodge his opener? Will the Guardian be able to block this attack using Aegis… Maybe I could make him use it without launching my real burst? Should I save my Blowback for the Warrior with that nasty Axe in his secondary Weapon Set, or to interrupt that Mesmer’s Utility Skill that I know that he has?
A good player will do all of those things in Conquest right now. In fact, I would argue that this thinking holds more weight in Conquest mode when you will usually face 1 or 2 enemies on a point as opposed to team DM where you are facing 3+ enemies.
TL; DR:
While I would enjoy seeing some other game modes, I feel like my PVP skills and strategies have been/are being tested with Conquest. I find that each time I play tPVP, I am incorporating new strategies and abilities I have learned from previous matches, message boards, and video streams in an effort to improve my gameplay. While I do not understand the support for team DM on these boards, it could work as an option in custom matches.
While there can always be improvements in any game or game mode, I do not feel like the state of PVP is as awful as some people make it out to be.
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