Guild Wars 2

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Right. So the point is that those who cannot do the same should be exactly in the spot they are. Not because they have “bad teammates” who hold them back. But because their own play does not merit reaching a higher division.

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Right. So the point is that those who cannot do the same should be exactly in the spot they are. Not because they have “bad teammates” who hold them back. But because their own play does not merit reaching a higher division.

No the point is, that they should be able to reach a point where they are the ones that make mistakes that matter some of the time and play well and it matters some of the time, not be at the point where their teammates make those mistakes. I’m not saying they should make diamond for kittens sake. I’m just saying the system shouldn’t be locking players that rush enemy lord or triple cap home with players who know that’s a bad idea. That’s all…..

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

The inherent problem with MMR is it takes into account your past losses, even if they aren’t relevant to your skill level anymore. Game losing mistakes you made years ago aren’t the same mistakes you make today after you know better. When a legendary gets a new account they don’t have the baggage of all their losses from years ago and if they start late enough it’ll be an exceptional +4 bads vs. 5 bads for awhile. Ratings are volatile when you have a new account then after a few games it gets established. If you have legendary skill you’ll rack up more wins faster against better people and have a much higher established rating than on a main account where its first established rating was lower.

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Right. So the point is that those who cannot do the same should be exactly in the spot they are. Not because they have “bad teammates” who hold them back. But because their own play does not merit reaching a higher division.

No the point is, that they should be able to reach a point where they are the ones that make mistakes that matter some of the time and play well and it matters some of the time, not be at the point where their teammates make those mistakes. I’m not saying they should make diamond for kittens sake. I’m just saying the system shouldn’t be locking players that rush enemy lord or triple cap home with players who know that’s a bad idea. That’s all…..

That may be your point, but it certainly is not mine. I’m sort of trying to decipher your first sentence. Anyway, I would have to disagree. Mainly because this matchmaking seems to want to put you on the same team as players in the same division/MMR as you. While MMR is not necessarily an indicator of skill, it at least will actually tend to put similarly skilled players together. So while you might know that triple capping home is generally a bad idea, you might still be at a similar skill level to those players. I mean, knowing where to go at all times is important but there are plenty of other things you could still be bad enough at which would put you on their level

Crimson Shi.5047:

Never heard of lip service or PR work have you?

Yes because then if they make no changes that will go over so well. Thew ignore threads that have no relevance to development.

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Right. So the point is that those who cannot do the same should be exactly in the spot they are. Not because they have “bad teammates” who hold them back. But because their own play does not merit reaching a higher division.

No the point is, that they should be able to reach a point where they are the ones that make mistakes that matter some of the time and play well and it matters some of the time, not be at the point where their teammates make those mistakes. I’m not saying they should make diamond for kittens sake. I’m just saying the system shouldn’t be locking players that rush enemy lord or triple cap home with players who know that’s a bad idea. That’s all…..

That may be your point, but it certainly is not mine. I’m sort of trying to decipher your first sentence. Anyway, I would have to disagree. Mainly because this matchmaking seems to want to put you on the same team as players in the same division/MMR as you. While MMR is not necessarily an indicator of skill, it at least will actually tend to put similarly skilled players together. So while you might know that triple capping home is generally a bad idea, you might still be at a similar skill level to those players. I mean, knowing where to go at all times is important but there are plenty of other things you could still be bad enough at which would put you on their level

Except that it doesn’t put players together based on skill, it’s very sensitive to loss/win streaks and with the safe pip checkpoints it prevents the system from evening out. The system lets MMR spiral low or high by the way it works and it’s hard to recover. There is no where for players to drop to at t0 ruby, even if I win 30% of my matches and they win 15% of their matches they still are in the same matchmaking pool. (FAir note, I play at offpeak hours so it stretches the range even more)

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Right. So the point is that those who cannot do the same should be exactly in the spot they are. Not because they have “bad teammates” who hold them back. But because their own play does not merit reaching a higher division.

No the point is, that they should be able to reach a point where they are the ones that make mistakes that matter some of the time and play well and it matters some of the time, not be at the point where their teammates make those mistakes. I’m not saying they should make diamond for kittens sake. I’m just saying the system shouldn’t be locking players that rush enemy lord or triple cap home with players who know that’s a bad idea. That’s all…..

That may be your point, but it certainly is not mine. I’m sort of trying to decipher your first sentence. Anyway, I would have to disagree. Mainly because this matchmaking seems to want to put you on the same team as players in the same division/MMR as you. While MMR is not necessarily an indicator of skill, it at least will actually tend to put similarly skilled players together. So while you might know that triple capping home is generally a bad idea, you might still be at a similar skill level to those players. I mean, knowing where to go at all times is important but there are plenty of other things you could still be bad enough at which would put you on their level

Except that it doesn’t put players together based on skill, it’s very sensitive to loss/win streaks and with the safe pip checkpoints it prevents the system from evening out. The system lets MMR spiral low or high by the way it works and it’s hard to recover. There is no where for players to drop to at t0 ruby, even if I win 30% of my matches and they win 15% of their matches they still are in the same matchmaking pool. (FAir note, I play at offpeak hours so it stretches the range even more)

Is there proof of what you are saying? Like has a dev said that it is sensitive to loss/win streaks? Or is this a conclusion you have come to from observing matchmaking as a player?

Also, as you say you play at a offpeak hours. I am curious how your perspective might shift if you played continually at peak hours

Browrain.7346:

DeWolfe.2174:

Browrain.7346:

Ty for posting this Eura. However, as you can see people will completely disregard what you say to convince themselves it’s the system keeping them down, not their own skill level. I don’t think anything can convince them otherwise, even if an ANet dev came in here and straight up said mmr hell doesn’t exist.

So, from another thread where an Anet Dev came in and said this yesterday

This is a really great analysis. I appreciate all the work you put into this. We recognize the problems that the season 2 matchmaking is causing and are looking into solutions that will provide a good experience and satisfy our goals for the league system.

Yes I saw that post. Nowhere does he say that mmr hell exists, only that they acknowledge the issues people are having with the system. People don’t enjoy losing 10 times in a row, even if they’re part of the reason they’re losing.

If mmr hell exists it is only part of the problems with the matchmaking, yet you guys would have us believe there are no problems at all.

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Right. So the point is that those who cannot do the same should be exactly in the spot they are. Not because they have “bad teammates” who hold them back. But because their own play does not merit reaching a higher division.

No the point is, that they should be able to reach a point where they are the ones that make mistakes that matter some of the time and play well and it matters some of the time, not be at the point where their teammates make those mistakes. I’m not saying they should make diamond for kittens sake. I’m just saying the system shouldn’t be locking players that rush enemy lord or triple cap home with players who know that’s a bad idea. That’s all…..

That may be your point, but it certainly is not mine. I’m sort of trying to decipher your first sentence. Anyway, I would have to disagree. Mainly because this matchmaking seems to want to put you on the same team as players in the same division/MMR as you. While MMR is not necessarily an indicator of skill, it at least will actually tend to put similarly skilled players together. So while you might know that triple capping home is generally a bad idea, you might still be at a similar skill level to those players. I mean, knowing where to go at all times is important but there are plenty of other things you could still be bad enough at which would put you on their level

Except that it doesn’t put players together based on skill, it’s very sensitive to loss/win streaks and with the safe pip checkpoints it prevents the system from evening out. The system lets MMR spiral low or high by the way it works and it’s hard to recover. There is no where for players to drop to at t0 ruby, even if I win 30% of my matches and they win 15% of their matches they still are in the same matchmaking pool. (FAir note, I play at offpeak hours so it stretches the range even more)

Is there proof of what you are saying? Like has a dev said that it is sensitive to loss/win streaks? Or is this a conclusion you have come to from observing matchmaking as a player?

Also, as you say you play at a offpeak hours. I am curious how your perspective might shift if you played continually at peak hours

All three people that modeled it showed that it had problems when your MMR dropped from your skill and that the system pushed it lower than actual MMR matching would. (Fair disclaimer, I did one of the models.) Yes, I can probably play til a point where it might correct itself, but depending on what model you use, you are looking at 50-300 games just to get to the point where it’s matching correctly. That might be ok to me if it was long term, but I have to do that in an 8 week season?

And my perspective would probably shift a lot since I’d be unemployed. The times I have to play are set by real life, and a working system would not penalize for that.

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Right. So the point is that those who cannot do the same should be exactly in the spot they are. Not because they have “bad teammates” who hold them back. But because their own play does not merit reaching a higher division.

No the point is, that they should be able to reach a point where they are the ones that make mistakes that matter some of the time and play well and it matters some of the time, not be at the point where their teammates make those mistakes. I’m not saying they should make diamond for kittens sake. I’m just saying the system shouldn’t be locking players that rush enemy lord or triple cap home with players who know that’s a bad idea. That’s all…..

That may be your point, but it certainly is not mine. I’m sort of trying to decipher your first sentence. Anyway, I would have to disagree. Mainly because this matchmaking seems to want to put you on the same team as players in the same division/MMR as you. While MMR is not necessarily an indicator of skill, it at least will actually tend to put similarly skilled players together. So while you might know that triple capping home is generally a bad idea, you might still be at a similar skill level to those players. I mean, knowing where to go at all times is important but there are plenty of other things you could still be bad enough at which would put you on their level

Except that it doesn’t put players together based on skill, it’s very sensitive to loss/win streaks and with the safe pip checkpoints it prevents the system from evening out. The system lets MMR spiral low or high by the way it works and it’s hard to recover. There is no where for players to drop to at t0 ruby, even if I win 30% of my matches and they win 15% of their matches they still are in the same matchmaking pool. (FAir note, I play at offpeak hours so it stretches the range even more)

Is there proof of what you are saying? Like has a dev said that it is sensitive to loss/win streaks? Or is this a conclusion you have come to from observing matchmaking as a player?

Also, as you say you play at a offpeak hours. I am curious how your perspective might shift if you played continually at peak hours

All three people that modeled it showed that it had problems when your MMR dropped from your skill and that the system pushed it lower than actual MMR matching would. (Fair disclaimer, I did one of the models.) Yes, I can probably play til a point where it might correct itself, but depending on what model you use, you are looking at 50-300 games just to get to the point where it’s matching correctly. That might be ok to me if it was long term, but I have to do that in an 8 week season?

And my perspective would probably shift a lot since I’d be unemployed. The times I have to play are set by real life, and a working system would not penalize for that.

Could you link your model that you speak of? I’m genuinely interested.

Also, that cracked me up a bit. Fair point.

Hubris.7436:

Is there proof of what you are saying? Like has a dev said that it is sensitive to loss/win streaks? Or is this a conclusion you have come to from observing matchmaking as a player?

There have been at least 2 models done posted on the forum which have reached that conclusion.

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Right. So the point is that those who cannot do the same should be exactly in the spot they are. Not because they have “bad teammates” who hold them back. But because their own play does not merit reaching a higher division.

No the point is, that they should be able to reach a point where they are the ones that make mistakes that matter some of the time and play well and it matters some of the time, not be at the point where their teammates make those mistakes. I’m not saying they should make diamond for kittens sake. I’m just saying the system shouldn’t be locking players that rush enemy lord or triple cap home with players who know that’s a bad idea. That’s all…..

That may be your point, but it certainly is not mine. I’m sort of trying to decipher your first sentence. Anyway, I would have to disagree. Mainly because this matchmaking seems to want to put you on the same team as players in the same division/MMR as you. While MMR is not necessarily an indicator of skill, it at least will actually tend to put similarly skilled players together. So while you might know that triple capping home is generally a bad idea, you might still be at a similar skill level to those players. I mean, knowing where to go at all times is important but there are plenty of other things you could still be bad enough at which would put you on their level

Except that it doesn’t put players together based on skill, it’s very sensitive to loss/win streaks and with the safe pip checkpoints it prevents the system from evening out. The system lets MMR spiral low or high by the way it works and it’s hard to recover. There is no where for players to drop to at t0 ruby, even if I win 30% of my matches and they win 15% of their matches they still are in the same matchmaking pool. (FAir note, I play at offpeak hours so it stretches the range even more)

Is there proof of what you are saying? Like has a dev said that it is sensitive to loss/win streaks? Or is this a conclusion you have come to from observing matchmaking as a player?

Also, as you say you play at a offpeak hours. I am curious how your perspective might shift if you played continually at peak hours

All three people that modeled it showed that it had problems when your MMR dropped from your skill and that the system pushed it lower than actual MMR matching would. (Fair disclaimer, I did one of the models.) Yes, I can probably play til a point where it might correct itself, but depending on what model you use, you are looking at 50-300 games just to get to the point where it’s matching correctly. That might be ok to me if it was long term, but I have to do that in an 8 week season?

And my perspective would probably shift a lot since I’d be unemployed. The times I have to play are set by real life, and a working system would not penalize for that.

Could you link your model that you speak of? I’m genuinely interested.

Also, that cracked me up a bit. Fair point.

Mine doesn’t do graphical output yet, but here’s ensigns. I disagree with his assumption that there exist matches where your opponent has a 90% chance to win that you can win 10% of the time, but it’s the most favorable to the devs of the models.
In it you can see the error range on player skill vs MMR and the error range on player skill vs player rank(num pips) is larger than what I would consider to be a fair system.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/221876/ratingrankot.png

Tenebria.7239:

Mine doesn’t do graphical output yet, but here’s ensigns. I disagree with his assumption that there exist matches where your opponent has a 90% chance to win that you can win 10% of the time, but it’s the most favorable to the devs of the models.
In it you can see the error range on player skill vs MMR and the error range on player skill vs player rank(num pips) is larger than what I would consider to be a fair system.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/221876/ratingrankot.png

Yeah I don’t understand that at all. As far as I’m concerned I’m looking at a series of graphs with very little context. What are the player rank and player skill data points pulled from?

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Mine doesn’t do graphical output yet, but here’s ensigns. I disagree with his assumption that there exist matches where your opponent has a 90% chance to win that you can win 10% of the time, but it’s the most favorable to the devs of the models.
In it you can see the error range on player skill vs MMR and the error range on player skill vs player rank(num pips) is larger than what I would consider to be a fair system.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/221876/ratingrankot.png

Yeah I don’t understand that at all. As far as I’m concerned I’m looking at a series of graphs with very little context. What are the player rank and player skill data points pulled from?

It’s a normal distribution? i think of player skill then plugged into a model of the matchmaking system with no bias towards play times. Those are the results , player skill=Actual MMR of a player, MMR=system determined MMR of a player, player rank=number of pips that player has. So basically input= player skill, output= rank and system MMR.

Eurantien.4632:

Is it based purely on MMR?

Did I skip right over it by getting a 100% winrate in Ruby playing core ranger?

You answered your own question there. There’s no way you would of gotten 100% winrate if your matches weren’t stacked. Wake up.

Eurantien.4632:

I’m getting the impression that If I want to get into MMR Hell I need to lose a lot? I need to do it at the beginning of diamond or ruby (I just got into diamond so this might be a good spot)? As I am not going to intentionally lose I can try to win games on classes I’m bad at and builds that aren’t viable. I’ll lose, but I’ll be trying to win so I’d make myself feel better about it haha (sorry team). Yet It is my understanding that people think a proleague player, such as myself, that got into MMR Hell would actually be able to just get back out. Therefore, any attempt for me to try and get into and back out is pointless because I probably could? I’m not really trying to prove it doesn’t exist it is just my experience that it doesn’t. I’m genuinely curious to experience MMR Hell in this game but It seems like I won’t be able to? Which by extension would mean that for me, MMR Hell actually doesn’t exist… but it does for those who are actually not good enough to get out of the pit once they get into it?

off course it does not exist for you but I am tired of explaining why !!
the post above mine says it all!
you are too pro – and count yourself lucky you will never experience it!!
classic elitism at its best! don’t try and get to MMRHell plz just stay where you belong in legendary division with the other pro’s and leave it at that!

Jekkt.6045:

there is no mmr hell. the only “hell” some players are in is their own, thinking they are better than they actually are.

i got to sapphire by playing fresh air ele and people were never focusing me in teamfights, letting me freecast my air overloads that wiped the entire team.

later i started playing rev and necro, switched to cleric ele in order to complete the stupid ascension achievements, playing 3 matches per day for those dailies.

so what did i do? i checked what classes my team has, what classes the enemy team has and based on that i rerolled to either rev necro or ele. i told people where to go, how to rotate, when to go boss. some people flamed me for it, some were happy – and we won.

i did 95% of my matches soloq and the rest duoq, maintaining a winrate of 80% or higher from amber to legendary. i have 8500 pvp matches and although i’m a bit rusty at the moment i still know how to rotate.

that’s something that many players i encountered don’t know. they don’t adapt their playstyle, don’t switch classes most of the time, don’t know how to rotate. 99% of the time splits were 4 mid 1 close, no far pushes, nothing.
they chase 3v1, fight 1v1 on capped enemy nodes vs a scrapper or ele, do beast when your team needs you, run lord when it’s already 480… don’t watch map, don’t prepare for respawn, don’t scout, don’t watch people disengage fights, don’t know their roles. and then they cry because they are stuck.

guess what, if you’re stuck in ruby/diamond then it’s in 99% of the cases your own fault. yes your teammates are very bad sometimes, but so are your opponents. and if you have 5 terrible players as opponents make sure that your team only cosists of 4.

Right for the umpteenth time on these forums
As I have said before I don’t believe I am better that where I am currently
and I don’t want to be – all I want is the chance to see the effort and hard work I put into improving myself show with some sort of progress
If what you say is true then there is no progression wthin divisions because we all are where we should be but no chance of finding where we could be -which is fine no incentive to improve and no point bothering to get better
that should not be the case I believe!
I made mistakes at the start and I was a bad player – I know this and I lost a lot of matches I deserved too – my MMR went down I get teamed with worse and worse players from my faults – yes – the problem is now I don’t make those mistakes and am better but I cannot translate that into wins because I am but one of five people in a team si I keep losing despite my improvement and get lower and lower wth worse team mates
that’s where the system fails MMR is personal but wins are just judged on the team which you have limited control over.

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

Grats, you’re probably better than a mid tier ruby….

Right. So the point is that those who cannot do the same should be exactly in the spot they are. Not because they have “bad teammates” who hold them back. But because their own play does not merit reaching a higher division.

No the point is, that they should be able to reach a point where they are the ones that make mistakes that matter some of the time and play well and it matters some of the time, not be at the point where their teammates make those mistakes. I’m not saying they should make diamond for kittens sake. I’m just saying the system shouldn’t be locking players that rush enemy lord or triple cap home with players who know that’s a bad idea. That’s all…..

That may be your point, but it certainly is not mine. I’m sort of trying to decipher your first sentence. Anyway, I would have to disagree. Mainly because this matchmaking seems to want to put you on the same team as players in the same division/MMR as you. While MMR is not necessarily an indicator of skill, it at least will actually tend to put similarly skilled players together. So while you might know that triple capping home is generally a bad idea, you might still be at a similar skill level to those players. I mean, knowing where to go at all times is important but there are plenty of other things you could still be bad enough at which would put you on their level

MMR does not always put players of similar skill together it is for a lot of people historical and not always a reflection of their CURRENT skill , it does not take into account changes and improvements to a players kill unless their teams can win that is its sole indicator

Hubris.7436:

Tenebria.7239:

Mine doesn’t do graphical output yet, but here’s ensigns. I disagree with his assumption that there exist matches where your opponent has a 90% chance to win that you can win 10% of the time, but it’s the most favorable to the devs of the models.
In it you can see the error range on player skill vs MMR and the error range on player skill vs player rank(num pips) is larger than what I would consider to be a fair system.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/221876/ratingrankot.png

Yeah I don’t understand that at all. As far as I’m concerned I’m looking at a series of graphs with very little context. What are the player rank and player skill data points pulled from?

You seem to like “real experiences” more than theoretical models, fair enough.

My experience:
If I play during a low playerpool time (which currently is basically always except for 8pm to 11pm and for about 1 hour after daily reset), I can log in my main account… average mmr… and loose one match after the other (though I usually stop after two losses nowadays). Then I can switch to another account – same pip range – and queue seamlessly…. and win one match after the other.
Same build, same player, different team.

So, why is it the system considers me a good player on one account, and a bad player on another account? Ive not yet had that explained to me by anyone.

Bad account:
http://img.pichoster.eu/bf3d72c6sae.png

Good account:
http://img.pichoster.eu/e8f9f92ayllena_2.png

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Eurantien.4632:

Is it based purely on MMR?

Did I skip right over it by getting a 100% winrate in Ruby playing core ranger?

If you have a high MMR you probably were paired with all the best players all the way hence why you literally flew over that division.

If you want to experience “MMR hell”, crippled your MMR and then retry Ruby. Tell me how it is in soloq after that…

Yeah but we worked for our MMR in season 1 just like everyone else did. Doesn’t that make sense? Also, if we are paired with the best players, we are also paired against the best players too because hopefully thats how MMR works lol. So your argument is invalid.

Interpretor.3091:

Also, if we are paired with the best players, we are also paired against the best players too because hopefully thats how MMR works lol. So your argument is invalid.

No. If you start with a fresh account and winstreak to legend your MMR is continuously increasing. People in MMR hell obviously don’t have an increasing MMR. So the amber to legend in 2 days player will always have a higher MMR within their current pip range. They won’t experience the bias swinging back the other way. Your argument is invalid.

Interpretor.3091:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Eurantien.4632:

Is it based purely on MMR?

Did I skip right over it by getting a 100% winrate in Ruby playing core ranger?

If you have a high MMR you probably were paired with all the best players all the way hence why you literally flew over that division.

If you want to experience “MMR hell”, crippled your MMR and then retry Ruby. Tell me how it is in soloq after that…

Yeah but we worked for our MMR in season 1 just like everyone else did. Doesn’t that make sense? Also, if we are paired with the best players, we are also paired against the best players too because hopefully thats how MMR works lol. So your argument is invalid.

not necessarily part of the problem is teams with good MMR are paired with teams with poor MMR hence the blow outs

@Eura’s title question of “where is this MMR hell” ?

Did you really expect to hit it while playing Ranger? Hahaha. To find it, you have to first off, not care about winning – non-meta build isn’t enough, you have to not be in a carry mindset.

Second is to play at the tier/division start of Emerald, Sapphire, or Ruby, and lose most winnable matches because you’re heavy, instead of carrying.

Seeing as you didn’t lose Pips for all the matches you didn’t care to win, now your MMR is pretty out of place in the PIP range you’re in.

From here, you play at off peak hours, repeatedly get instant pops with the same baddies in the same boat as you, or worse, say to hell with it, and try to get some Thief/Warrior wins for your achievements.

Then your account is officially gonna take the sudden mindset of carrying in order to get out. The same person who screwed up this account so badly will have to struggle for a long time to repair this.

Tldr, you can’t really find MMR hell as a high level player, because you reach out and grab the winnable matches every time.

Chaith.8256:

@Eura’s title question of “where is this MMR hell” ?

Did you really expect to hit it while playing Ranger? Hahaha. To find it, you have to first off, not care about winning – non-meta build isn’t enough, you have to not be in a carry mindset.

Second is to play at the tier/division start of Emerald, Sapphire, or Ruby, and lose most winnable matches because you’re heavy, instead of carrying.

Seeing as you didn’t lose Pips for all the matches you didn’t care to win, now your MMR is pretty out of place in the PIP range you’re in.

From here, you play at off peak hours, repeatedly get instant pops with the same baddies in the same boat as you, or worse, say to hell with it, and try to get some Thief/Warrior wins for your achievements.

Then your account is officially gonna take the sudden mindset of carrying in order to get out. The same person who screwed up this account so badly will have to struggle for a long time to repair this.

Tldr, you can’t really find MMR hell as a high level player, because you reach out and grab the winnable matches every time.

You’re having a laugh aren’t you? There is no carry mindset.

None of you pro players could carry (the way you are describing) last season all the way to legend in an even competition. Why not? This is why you all b****ed. You can only “carry” if anet hands you the wins on a platter. Ridiculous.

Chaith.8256:

@Eura’s title question of “where is this MMR hell” ?

Did you really expect to hit it while playing Ranger? Hahaha. To find it, you have to first off, not care about winning – non-meta build isn’t enough, you have to not be in a carry mindset.

Second is to play at the tier/division start of Emerald, Sapphire, or Ruby, and lose most winnable matches because you’re heavy, instead of carrying.

Seeing as you didn’t lose Pips for all the matches you didn’t care to win, now your MMR is pretty out of place in the PIP range you’re in.

From here, you play at off peak hours, repeatedly get instant pops with the same baddies in the same boat as you, or worse, say to hell with it, and try to get some Thief/Warrior wins for your achievements.

Then your account is officially gonna take the sudden mindset of carrying in order to get out. The same person who screwed up this account so badly will have to struggle for a long time to repair this.

Tldr, you can’t really find MMR hell as a high level player, because you reach out and grab the winnable matches every time.

Prepare to be flamed extra hard for this comment because people don’t feel like you can relate to their experiences.

Edit: Wow that was quick. It already happened before I could finish typing this.

It took you 3 minutes to write one sentence. Hit a nerve.

Ppl are making MMR hell a bigger thing than it is.

Today i played with and against one specific rev a few times. He kept spamming mapchat about how he was stuck in MMR hell.

When i was with him it was obvious he was lacking pressure. In fact he was doing so little dmg that i ended up doing most direct dmg that game… as support druid, while keeping him alive at the same time. When i was against him i could easily manage to sustain 1v2.

Yet he kept spamming how MMR hell was dragging him down….

Im quite sure that the vast majority off players who shout about MMR hell use it as an excuse. Far easier to blame the system over your own sucky gameplay.

jessiestiles.9437:

Chaith.8256:

@Eura’s title question of “where is this MMR hell” ?

Did you really expect to hit it while playing Ranger? Hahaha. To find it, you have to first off, not care about winning – non-meta build isn’t enough, you have to not be in a carry mindset.

Second is to play at the tier/division start of Emerald, Sapphire, or Ruby, and lose most winnable matches because you’re heavy, instead of carrying.

Seeing as you didn’t lose Pips for all the matches you didn’t care to win, now your MMR is pretty out of place in the PIP range you’re in.

From here, you play at off peak hours, repeatedly get instant pops with the same baddies in the same boat as you, or worse, say to hell with it, and try to get some Thief/Warrior wins for your achievements.

Then your account is officially gonna take the sudden mindset of carrying in order to get out. The same person who screwed up this account so badly will have to struggle for a long time to repair this.

Tldr, you can’t really find MMR hell as a high level player, because you reach out and grab the winnable matches every time.

You’re having a laugh aren’t you? There is no carry mindset.

None of you pro players could carry (the way you are describing) last season all the way to legend in an even competition. Why not? This is why you all b****ed. You can only “carry” if anet hands you the wins on a platter. Ridiculous.

It hurts me to admit it, but he has a point. I started climbing out of mmr hell on my main account when I started running a build with maximum carry potential.
Im a good player, and some stupid “rescue fails” beside, I usually dont get downed easily. So I changed from supporter to max dps, build in as much cheese as possible, et voila my winrate is climbing again.
But of course, I was able to do that because Im a good player to start with. I just chose the wrong way to carry in this meta and thats what kittened me over.
I dont think you can “get good” under those conditions, because there really is no room for trial and error. The only thing you can do, to “get good” and climb your way out of mmr hell, is pick one meta build that suits your playstyle —>
if you are
- a point hogger → df aurasharetempest
- overrotater → mesmer
- overextender → scrapper
- backpaddler → druid
- overly cautious point avoider → reaper
watch streams to get the playstyle down perfectly, train skill rotations against golems, then play unranked matches until you are confidently winning most of those unranked matches. You cant do that in ranked, because it will just kitten you over more and more.

Season1 was hell for me. Constantly stuck with 2-4 bad players, everytime I got close to 55% winrate I would get the worst of the worst, resulting in one loss after the other, until my winrate again was 50%.
There really was no way to carry. Or rather… the only ones profitting from me carrying were those that grinded their way into legendary. In that season2 is an improvement.
And btw? Carrying in a support bunker meta is not as easy as in a dps meta. Dont forget that.

Locuz.2651:

Im quite sure that the vast majority off players who shout about MMR hell use it as an excuse. Far easier to blame the system over your own sucky gameplay.

Yup. I’ve said the same thing in other threads.

I had this tempest yesterday in two matches… first one against him, second one with him… and he kept telling how he always gets matched with the worst players. But then he kept overrotating all the time, running from fight to fight and letting me – a viper necro – defend mid. He wasted skills, he kept shouting in teamchat how bad we are for letting them decap mid – yet again. I mean… yeah… as a viper necro I kinda have to leave point if there’s two DH incoming. I still managed to not die and get the cap back, those DHs were that bad
I was soooooo tempted to throw that match, just go afk… but well, I didnt.
We won 500 to 200.
And even though he ran from fight to fight… mainly overloading air and fire…. he had only a score of 65, whereas the rest of us had 170+.

So yeah, self deception is a thing.

But that doesnt mean there is no mmr hell. Some players are legitimately stuck in it. Be it because they cant drop down due to division lock… or because they started on the wrong foot.

Oh you had difficulty maintaing a 50% winrate last season but you were carrying other players which was impossible to do. Prepare your thoughts before making other people read them.

Also you’ve been complaining about being in the same situation as everyone else for weeks now. Even just 3 hours ago in this very thread. Do I need to refer you to that post again?

Browrain.7346:

Locuz.2651:

Im quite sure that the vast majority off players who shout about MMR hell use it as an excuse. Far easier to blame the system over your own sucky gameplay.

Yup. I’ve said the same thing in other threads.

If it was just my gameplay that would be fine but if u check again it’s a team game

Believe me it exists I’ve said the same in the other threads l

jessiestiles.9437:

None of you pro players could carry (the way you are describing) last season all the way to legend in an even competition. Why not? This is why you all b****ed. You can only “carry” if anet hands you the wins on a platter. Ridiculous.

The hell you talking about? The good players did fine last season with more than 50% winrate. It was the players trading win for loss and blaming the “50% win” feature that kittened endlessly.

I solo Q’d to Legend in S1 on Core Engineer just fine, bro.

Ok for the unsmarts. You’re saying theres a “carry mentality”. ie the ability to carry players that would otherwise lose without you. Yet last season when the teams were roughly equal you managed a just over 50% winrate. As did I and i’m sure most people who didn’t rig the system. If this “carry mentalitiy” existed then last season you would of had a much easier time doing so. You should of won nearly all your games. “Carry mentality” is a completely fabricated concept.

And last season the complaint was that better players shouldn’t have to be stuck on even teams. They should advance much quicker than lesser players. Hence why anet made the current system.

@Jesse,

Your facts from last season are really off base. Carry mentality that I spoke of is more specifically the learning curve of how to bail your teammates out

Lol I don’t even know how to respond with that. “Carry mentalty” is not carrying a team but learning how to bail teammates out. You should work for scientology.

You can tell who the casuals are and who the good players are on this thread.

MMR Hell is an excuse for being terrible at this game. Fix your gameplay folks stop double dodging.

50% win rate does not equal good matchmaking.

Jelzouki.4128:

You can tell who the casuals are and who the good players are on this thread.

MMR Hell is an excuse for being terrible at this game. Fix your gameplay folks stop double dodging.

50% win rate does not equal good matchmaking.

happy to fix MY gameplay – cant do much about the others in my team !!

for the umpteenth time! – to the usual elitists!!

Its a fact not an excuse

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are

Hubris.7436:

I’m saying I can win with teammates like those.

All with an account name of “hubris”. I’m not the only one seeing this right?

godsie.2864:

Jelzouki.4128:

You can tell who the casuals are and who the good players are on this thread.

MMR Hell is an excuse for being terrible at this game. Fix your gameplay folks stop double dodging.

50% win rate does not equal good matchmaking.

happy to fix MY gameplay – cant do much about the others in my team !!

for the umpteenth time! – to the usual elitists!!

Its a fact not an excuse

You do have a point. 5 good players v 4 good players, the outcome is in favour of the 5. I had a game yesterday, where 1 guy just went AFK very early on in the match, when the enemy got mid. That 1 guy ruined the game for us and we ended up losing.

Also this MMR “Hell”. From what I can see, people say it occured when people got a losing streak in Season 1 or something along those lines? I’m genuinely curious about it, as I haven’t had a losing streak. Coincidently, I didn’t take part in Season 1. Well I played literally 2 games then didn’t bother. I’ve been playing this Season though. The last 13 games I won 11 of them (currently in Sapphire).

Did the people that are stuck in this “MMR Hell” take part in Season 1?

whatever, i cant even get to second tier of sapphire because its 1 win one or losses, constantly.

im at about a 38% win rate.

sure its my fault, but i also dont pvp by myself. so its not entirely my fault. period.

if u also have done well, its also not entirely because of you.

and btw me and my friends hate this game because of how pvp has been.
they dont even play it anymore.

I think it’s a gross overgeneralization to assert that everyone who hits a sticking point is getting exactly what they deserve full stop. You simply do not have the data to support that broad of a statement. You would have to be watching all these people’s games to see if any of their complaints are legitimate.

You’re not a good test subject because you’re not really in a position to hit a sticking point in any division below legendary and probably not even in legendary. You’re not just a pro league player but arguably one of the better pro league players and to my knowledge the best and most experienced ranger player in the game. Your proper placement might actually be so high that you won’t even get there because there may not even be enough players playing regularly at the levels below it to get you regular matches.

To just flatly dismiss everyone’s complaints as being a l2p issue without having any data whatsoever to back it up other than because “it didn’t happen to me” is so obviously foolish that I can’t help but wonder if you’re really even serious.

jessiestiles.9437:

Lol I don’t even know how to respond with that. “Carry mentalty” is not carrying a team but learning how to bail teammates out. You should work for scientology.

This seems to be wasted, but, you after doing so many solo queue matches, you develop this sense of where the most critical fight will be, which teammates you need to babysit, if any.

Pretty big difference between somebody who has awareness of this, and someone who has a lone wolf playstyle where they win all their 1v1s, get valuable decaps, but can’t impose their will and prevent their teammates from losing even, or even outnumbering fights.

Oh MMR hell exists, it’s just that most of the people who are blaming it for their losses have more to blame than MMR hell.

Jekkt.6045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jekkt.6045:

DeWolfe.2174:

Jekkt.6045:

yes your teammates are very bad sometimes, but so are your opponents.

No, no, and NO! Matrch making takes MMR to build a team. Then match making uses Pip Range to find an opposing team. It does not try, at all, to find an opponent of similar MMR to make a competitive match. So when we have Joe Legendary here running on Alt account, which many are doing, its the perfect example of how lower MMR players can be matched against high MMR players in lower divisions.

that’s your own illusion. mmr doesn’t mean anything, it’s a number that doesn’t win games. i’m sure there have been many games in which the enemy team had a higher mmr than mine and we still won. i beat a couple of 5man premades along the way to legendary too. you’re discouraging yourself by always taking mmr too seriously.

There is no illusion in saying MMR is used to make teams but not to find opponents. Look for yourself at the algorithm. I too defeated teams who seemed stronger but what does it prove? How does it change the fact this is how teams are made.

i’m not saying the system doesn’t match teams by mmr. what i’m saying is that mmr is just a number, it’s in no way a guaranteed loss if the enemy team has a higher mmr.

I don’t know how it works now but in every 2nd game i have 1-2-3 ppl that stay afk from start for 2 minutes for example, or they don’t know how to stomp. They can run from the base to far point (ours) while enemies attack our lord. They just lose teamfights 4v2, they have from little to zero damage but die in less than 1 second etc etc etc. It happens in every 2nd game. If you are super lucky and got decent team for 3 games, you will have 5 games in a row with idiots then. You just can’t win, no matters what you do, they just fail everything, even if you win mid and go to help others, they will leave mid and give it for free to fight 4v1 on close.

Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.

To answer your question, “Where is this MMR Hell?” I’ll simple say it is in a place you and Chaith are not, nor will ever be. I inadvertently did a nice proof of concept this season towards the top of Diamond, that I think demonstrates this MMR Hell. Thankfully, I have some nice advice about how to get out of it.

Chaith and Eurantien will never get into this slump because they are, simply put, too good. And by good, I mean they have top notch mechanical and team awareness. I’m not trying to boost their ego but simply want to state the truth about this matter.

So, to understand my case study, I would say I am an excellent solo queue player, say top 95%, with above average mechanical knowledge. Given enough time, I’ll win more than 9 out of 10 1v1, or 2v2 fights. My team awareness is mediocre and while I can usually out-rotate enemies, I sometimes make mistakes and throw games. Bad rotations, getting stuck in bad fights, not escaping, etc.

I steam rolled the solo-queue to T6 diamond early on. Keep in mind I queue almost every day. I don’t think I lost a match in Diamond. Around the time of tier 6 I started finishing the profession achievements so I could build the ascension and I also got stuck in a few good, but loosing matches, with a few PZ guys. I don’t love bombs (OK, maybe I do) and java is not cute!

Once this happened, it was a never ending solo snowball loose streak all the way back down to T1. So here is the dilemma for those who say the snowball does not exist—and those who complain are no good. If I am good, then this should not have happened, right? 30 – 40 game loose streak (speckled with a few clutch wins) shouldn’t happen to a decent player.

OK, so I must be a bad that can’t carry (with 4000 ranked solo games and a straight win win streak to T6 Diamond). But if I am a bad, I should never make it to T6 diamond…right? That would mean bads can make it all the way to the top with straight wins in the same way the pros can. That can be it. That would mean the leagues and divisions mean nothing in the same way they did in S1. That’s not right.

Anyhow, yesterday I got so annoyed I started complaining in game chat about my streak, and I met a mesmer and engie that were having the same problem. To make a long story short, we teamed up, broke our streak, and started winning easy matches.

So, am I bad? I’ll answer it for you, compared to Eurantien and Chaith: You bet. Did I deserve the loose streak? Maybe. Here’s why. This is a team game, so to be truly good, you need both mechanical and team awareness. If you get on a loosing streak, you need to team up with people you are confident know the basics. Don’t leave it up to the silly algorithm, as it is broken for solo players. Make some friends, get better at team play, and it is easy.

It is also wrong to ridicule solo players who get stuck in the solo-snowball MMR hell. They expect the matchmaker to be a bit more fair and not hose them like it does.