Guild Wars 2

I prefer whine posts rather than an empty forum,,, seriously the core PVP in this game is very solid and as long as the devs keep pushing balance and features then i am very optimistic

i just want to let people know that there are people who REALLY want to see this PVP shine and simply are forever impatient when talking about their wishes,,,

i hope the devs see through this and just keep working on improving the great PVP rather than misinterpret the complaints as demoralizing “ur game sux”

if your game really did suck, then nobody would even be complaining, because we would just have stopped playing and moved on,,,

TLDR: ppl complain because there is so much obvious potential for it to be even better,,, just keep in mind guys that it takes work and time for the devs to implement things

The wisest thing Anet can do is get the best 10 players together based on streams/rank/wins etc, pay them some cash, and discuss the game with them. A person who has played hardcore and knows every class’ faults and strengths can help them give suggestions to balance things out, and when you have say, 10 of those, you can’t go wrong. Good players will always have more insight on the game problems and better suggestions how to balance it than devs, sorry to say, but it’s true.

The last major patch was evidence that Anet makes good and bad decisions. For example, buffing D/D eles was the right idea, but the change of the signet was not that great, it made it even worse since it gave it actually a 50% dmg increase(50 to 75%). You won’t see 15k backstabs now true, but thiefs didn’t need a dmg boost in the first place.

Not that my post will change anything, but IMO that’s the best way to balance things out.

The worst thing Anet can do is get top end players together and use their suggestions/complaints as the basis for balance. Players have more bias than knowledge, and making adjustments based on those behaviors just sets up a “chase the imbalance” metagame where the flavor of the week build is always meaningfully overpowered.

10 players that want to “ruin” the game will never have the same suggestions, thru discussions they’ll eventually decide on the best change for a certain thing, and along with the dev’s opinions, it adds up.

Edit: I mean, if they listen to inexperienced players, they might as well delete the mesmer and thief class, give ranger perma 25 stacks of might and so on, people with more insight into the game will always provide more valuable opinions.

Lunacy.5183:

10 players that want to “ruin” the game will never have the same suggestions, thru discussions they’ll eventually decide on the best change for a certain thing, and along with the dev’s opinions, it adds up.

Edit: I mean, if they listen to inexperienced players, they might as well delete the mesmer and thief class, give ranger perma 25 stacks of might and so on, people with more insight into the game will always provide more valuable opinions.

The issue is that players are too short-sighted. They base things upon their own experiences and biases. Sure, if you had a sufficiently large group those biases would be averaged out (yay for the Miracle of Aggregation), but how large is “sufficiently large?” It’s likely infeasible to reach that sort of size. As I had mentioned in another thread, balance changes should be designed based on spreadsheets, not forum posts (or in this case, focus groups).

@Syeria: I tend to agree with you. Good players are not gods, and even good players have shown lack of aptitude in certain crucial areas … they are human beings like the rest of us (which I hope they are pleased with).
But this is where dialogue sets in … having good players go into a dialogue is not a bad thing, because they can show what they use where and when and thereby reveal aspects other people where not aware of.
So … spreadsheets vs focus groups, you say? Well, not all kind of data are suited for statistical generalization. When data are too complex statistical generalization tends to cut out crucial things in order to make predictions. It depends on the complexity of the issue at hand and what kind of question you have … which I suppose you are aware of. So it boils down to: Is the game simple enough? I am not sure.
There are other considerations, but in general focus groups can open up for new topics, that we weren’t even aware of. Both has it’s uses if you ask me … even in this case.

The moment I give up on the game, is the moment I stop posting all my very critical posts.

I have been a very annoying git at many threads, but I sincerely only do this because I think the game is worth it to improve.
Making suggestions, complaining about what is wrong, etc… all serves that purpose.

But truth be told: my most annoying posts are likely those where I step in an argument to point ut how I think somebodies reasoning utterly makes no snese to me.
Those particular posts help the game as such less, but maybe the level of the arguments

So yes: negative feedback is incredibly important I think.
Together with the fact that I consider critical thinking a virtue, not a nuissance.

Syeria.4812:

The worst thing Anet can do is get top end players together and use their suggestions/complaints as the basis for balance. Players have more bias than knowledge, and making adjustments based on those behaviors just sets up a “chase the imbalance” metagame where the flavor of the week build is always meaningfully overpowered.

Thats also what i immediatly thought, but Arenanet should have the last word about any changes, and they should have the sense to realise a mesmer shouldnt be asking for 2 more max illusions.

The problem with complaining posts is not the complaining in itself, it’s that:

1) Repeated topics on the same “issue” purge topics from the main page that are about more in-game strategy and team play

2) The entitled, impatient, condescending tone of DEMANDING Anet respond to you right here, right now, Veruca Salt-esque behavior that is poisonous to any board that wants to be diplomatic and actually acheive results

People need to complain, but if you’re not willing to listen to a counter arguement and make changes yourself, then no, you shouldn’t complain. It’s like complaining about the president but refusing to vote. It’s not a one sided argument, but to most doing the complaining, it is… it’s their way or nothing.

True, though on the counter point, even good ideas should be tested. So it’s also good to constructively critic the critisism, comprento compadre? (Sorry, just had to add more C words)

Dual.8953:

True, though on the counter point, even good ideas should be tested. So it’s also good to constructively critic the critisism, comprento compadre? (Sorry, just had to add more C words)

That actually doesn’t counter my point, I agree with that. Good ideas should be tested. Just don’t make repeated posts about the same thing that you feel needs to be tested, and don’t demand it be done RIGHT now. That’s my point… not in the critique itself, even if I disagree with it, that’s what the boards are for, but it’s not healthy to threaten to quit playing and demand your idea be “fixed” right now, which is what a lot of people do here, and it’s also not healthy to have 5 topics on the front page be about the exact same thing, complaint or otherwise. I would feel the same way if there were 10 “I love Anet!” posts on the front page as well.

aydenunited.5729:

The problem with complaining posts is not the complaining in itself, it’s that:

1) Repeated topics on the same “issue” purge topics from the main page that are about more in-game strategy and team play

2) The entitled, impatient, condescending tone of DEMANDING Anet respond to you right here, right now, Veruca Salt-esque behavior that is poisonous to any board that wants to be diplomatic and actually acheive results

People need to complain, but if you’re not willing to listen to a counter arguement and make changes yourself, then no, you shouldn’t complain. It’s like complaining about the president but refusing to vote. It’s not a one sided argument, but to most doing the complaining, it is… it’s their way or nothing.

repeated posts about how wonderfull the game is, do the same pushing back.
Except that they actually provide feedback than has less direct usage…

Not that they shouldn’t be there, but any repeated post tends to do that, whatever the content.

Having repeatitive posts show that a problem is a widely spead concern at least, even if the posts themselves don’t add anything to the discussion.
As a signal it’s something, as annoying as it may get at times.

About the demanding tone, I think those pop up most with issues that frustrate players in their gameplay mostly.
The posts are than very often written in that frustration.
So even though they may touch upon legitimate concerns, their tone is set by the feelings of frustration they still genuinely feel.

Not every post that is demanding of course, just saying that I think many generate from in-game frustration.

This forum is the first I’ve ever taken part in. I remember I came because a certain class issue was driving me crazy. I’d say after about 200 matches, frustration drove me to quit, and I sought the forums for support (lol sometimes). I wanted to see if others were having the same problems, or if I was just playing wrong.

My deal was my tanky warrior couldn’t do half of what the tanky guardian could. I remember thinking to myself: these guys got WAY too much sheer invulnerable time, and I’ll never compete with that. Somehow, I didn’t read about the mace bug for another 600- 800 matches later, and by then I was playing 4 other classes. However: logic, spreadsheet data, and the meta all say that even without the mace, the guardian is a much better tank/defender/survivor/pointguard/what-have-you. This issue was so played out for me that when I read of the exploit I didn’t even bother to post about it.

OP is right to frame the thread title like this: it draws attention to a miasma within the fanbase. It’s too bad the gaming community has been saddled with the stereotypes of ‘whiners vs leets’, and the ridiculous, divisive language of ‘L2P and QQ’. There are more people spreading hate on the forums (while running cheese builds and exploits) than there are making over-emotional ‘demand/call-out’ posts. Just like pain in the human body, the voices surrounding game imbalances are symptoms and signals. Not all are so clear OR helpful, but ignoring or simply band-aiding legitimate outcries without getting to the root cause will only make things worse.

We should all take every type of post with a grain of salt, and find the reasonable middle ground. People tend to talk, focus, and seek out more bad than good in things. It’s part of a growing process, for the thing and hopefully the person too.

Here comes a layperson’s over-simplistic breakdown of the forum post subsets in spvp! (from largest to smallest)

#1) Critique posts: from frustrated people who want to see changes in the game

#2) Betterment posts: from those who want to find groups, talk strategy, ect…

#3) Hate posts: from those running exploits, cheese builds, or leet attitudes

#4) Praise posts: from those who just want to focus positively or see few problems

#5) Demand posts: from those way too frustrated and emotional about their game

I’ve posted quite a bit here, but major issues haven’t changed, and Anet must possess collective, empirical data more valuable than me beating a dead horse. I very much enjoy the fresh, innovative combat system this game was built on, which is why I’ve been equally frustrated watching major outlying issues continue to compromise it.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to jump in and say: posts that are well-written and constructive are a HUGE help. I realize that sometimes people get upset, and I honestly don’t mind strong language if someone is voicing an opinion different from my own. As long as both sides are passionate (which may lead to some strong points of view) but still OPEN to opposition, threads are a great way to come up with solutions.

And yes, I know that the reason you guys are SO strong in your posts is because you love the game and want it to improve. So while I may disagree with someone’s point of view, I can often still think, “Hey, this person is really enjoying the game, and they want it to be even better than it is. Due to this, they’ve gone to the forums to try and reach out to others in an effort to fix an issue they hold dear to their heart.”

And, to quote a brilliant thinker, Chris Rock, “Ain’t nothing wrong with that!”

How about more communication as to the direction of pvp balance? Sooner rather than later is the best approach. Or at least open the discussions, or participate in some of the discussions that are ongoing.

@John: It’s regrettable, then, that over half the contrary forum posts ended up locked and/or deleted by your moderation team.

There is a lot of good feedback that never sees the light of day due to being off topic, or a ‘complaint’, or ‘unconstructive’.

JonathanSharp.7094:

And yes, I know that the reason you guys are SO strong in your posts is because you love the game and want it to improve.

People are strong in their posts because it pisses us off that you’ve fixed maybe 30%? of all the bugs that were in since release and created a bunch of new ones (stealth rendering anyone?). Add to that, you never tell us what you are working on, only the vaguest of details in your once per month blog posts. And of course the reluctance the balance the things in the game that are obviously OP/broken, such as mesmer portal on khylo. Also the fact that nobody from ANet seems to acknowledge the bugs, of all the hundreds of pretty huge bugs in the game I’ve seen red comments on maybe 3-4 of them, which is just not enough, would maybe take 30mins to compile a list of bugs you are aware of. Last but not least, the fact that events like this halloween one obviously take up most of ANet’s man power, so balance/bug fixing are just left untouched for 3 weeks? (since it seems 15th november is the next patch).

It’s absolutely no wonder why a lot of the PvP community feel completely unloved and forgotten about.