Guild Wars 2

First of all, the situation below should never have occurred in Soloq. Aren’t matchups supposed to be fair? I like winning as much as anyone, but tell that to the poor lvl 15 necro I badly screwed over.

Second, looking at the ranks, is anyone surprised? I mean really? Those who say “ranks don’t matter” and “MMR =/= rank” have to realize that the correlation is strong enough to be a very solid causation.

I think the matchups would be better if they were made on the basis of rank instead of MMR. Try it and see. MMR is way too easily skewed to be meaningful at least in its current implementation.

P.S: One necro had left by the time I took this screenshot.

Edit: inb4 some guy says “I saw this low rank own xyz high rank”. We’re talking statistics. One swallow does not a summer make. And this screenshot is not just one swallow. Second, never think you beat a high rank just because of your super skill. They might have been trying out a new build, a new class altogether, could be a team support player instead of a 1v1 build…or whatever. Any number of valid reasons why even super high ranked players can lose at some time or the other to lower ones.

You play decap engi, talking about unfair :P

DanyK.3842:

You play decap engi, talking about unfair :P

Oh, I agree. But you know why I play a decap engi? Because most of my PvP time I was a mesmer. Different build, experiments etc. I was even a good close holder. Till one day I met a decap engi who rendered me irrelevant.

I realized that if I wanted to contribute the most to my team, I had to adapt. Never played an engi before, but I learned to be a darned good decap engi myself.

As soon as AR is nerfed, if decap is no longer viable I will go back to my mesmer. I really loved playing it, and I have to admit I often feel that I have no soul as a decapper and even apologize to those I push out. But what am I to do? I’m in this to win and a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do!

bhagwad.4281:

DanyK.3842:

You play decap engi, talking about unfair :P

Oh, I agree. But you know why I play a decap engi? Because most of my PvP time I was a mesmer. Different build, experiments etc. I was even a good close holder. Till one day I met a decap engi who rendered me irrelevant.

I realized that if I wanted to contribute the most to my team, I had to adapt. Never played an engi before, but I learned to be a darned good decap engi myself.

I’m totally with him on this, my advice to anyone who isn’t having fun in pvp anymore due to balance is to just stop trying to fight for your favourite builds to be viable and just go with the cheese. And tbh a lot of high ranks (50-60+) reflect that, from the ones I typically see often in ranked and hotjoins they all run one of the meta builds. I literally can’t remember a time when I have seen a high ranked player using a build that I couldn’t identify within seconds.

So yeah, you might find an axe necro fun for 1-2 games where you think to yourself ’_it’s not super strong or anything but It’s at least decent enough to have a go_’. And then mouth breather warriors or whatever lyssa-abuser specs are popular atm roll in and stomp you with ease, the kind of ease that makes you want to leave from embarrassment because you must be afk letting the cat play to have lost so easily and achieved so little in the process.

I’d get used to that now, because little is going to change come April 15th, the day that will forever go down as ‘we thought 8% was a good idea’

bhagwad.4281:

But what am I to do? I’m in this to win and a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do!

I would suggest you are there to play a game so you probably should play what you enjoy most, regardless of victory and meta. But you know, killing the fun yourself by playing braindead specs must be a good solution too.

Oh and yeah, ofc, that’s not exactly possible in tournament. But facing braindead or becoming one is not appealing to me so I’d rather stay in HJ.

Uhtameit.2413:

But facing braindead or becoming one is not appealing to me so I’d rather stay in HJ.

So to be less braindead we should play hotjoins? Since thats where people play less cheesy builds while playing the game in an intelligent manner?

Is that what you’re saying?

Uhtameit.2413:

bhagwad.4281:

But what am I to do? I’m in this to win and a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do!

I would suggest you are there to play a game so you probably should play what you enjoy most, regardless of victory and meta. But you know, killing the fun yourself by playing braindead specs must be a good solution too.

Oh and yeah, ofc, that’s not exactly possible in tournament. But facing braindead or becoming one is not appealing to me so I’d rather stay in HJ.

“Fun” – now there’s a loaded word. People play for different reasons. For me, the pain of playing a decap engi is obviously less than the “fun” of winning. So I’ll keep playing it till it’s changed.

And “fun” is not the only reason we play. It’s such a frivolous way of looking at things.

azuzephyr.7280:

I’m totally with him on this, my advice to anyone who isn’t having fun in pvp anymore due to balance is to just stop trying to fight for your favourite builds to be viable and just go with the cheese. And tbh a lot of high ranks (50-60+) reflect that, from the ones I typically see often in ranked and hotjoins they all run one of the meta builds. I literally can’t remember a time when I have seen a high ranked player using a build that I couldn’t identify within seconds.

So yeah, you might find an axe necro fun for 1-2 games where you think to yourself ’_it’s not super strong or anything but It’s at least decent enough to have a go_’. And then mouth breather warriors or whatever lyssa-abuser specs are popular atm roll in and stomp you with ease, the kind of ease that makes you want to leave from embarrassment because you must be afk letting the cat play to have lost so easily and achieved so little in the process.

I’d get used to that now, because little is going to change come April 15th, the day that will forever go down as ‘we thought 8% was a good idea’

Heh, this is why I succumbed to playing a hambow a bit… I was tired of getting beat up by them. Yet.. I still felt bad inflicting that on other players. :P

why is rank dont matter? well for example a experience guys creates new account and play pvp hes rank 1 and everyone can see but he performs like a rank 50+ also why leaderboard doesnt matter? this guy who just created an account go play with new players and carries the team he just win 10 consecutive win hes now at top 10 of the leaderboard. now why MMR doesnt matter? well same reasoning as before a new account gets high MMR thats why a few consecutive wins get him to top 10 even top 1 spot at the leaderboard. now what?

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

why is rank dont matter? well for example a experience guys creates new account and play pvp hes rank 1 and everyone can see but he performs like a rank 50+ also why leaderboard doesnt matter? this guy who just created an account go play with new players and carries the team he just win 10 consecutive win hes now at top 10 of the leaderboard. now why MMR doesnt matter? well same reasoning as before a new account gets high MMR thats why a few consecutive wins get him to top 10 even top 1 spot at the leaderboard. now what?

I just critted 10 times in a row with 11% critchance. Precision doesn’t matter. Checkmate, atheists!

How am I tired of seeing such “counterexamples” to statistically proved rules.

@OP:

The reality is that ranks should not be included in matchmaking. For matches it should be completely based on MMR and how well someone is playing.

The issue in general is that matchmaking does not work correctly (as you point out). That is due to two things: a broken leaderboard and a lack of players. The broken leaderboard means that positions on the ladder are incorrect which causes poor MMR.

The lack of players is an even bigger issue. Essentially ANET had to make a decision between waiting 15 minutes to start a match or to start a match more quickly but add in some players who do not belong in the game. They choose the latter.

ANET is really feeling the effects of their decision to remove rewards from PvP. Hopefully once the new rewards are in place on April 15, we will see an increase in participation. That, along will a ladder logic revision is what is needed.

style.6173:

@OP:

The reality is that ranks should not be included in matchmaking. For matches it should be completely based on MMR and how well someone is playing.

The issue in general is that matchmaking does not work correctly (as you point out). That is due to two things: a broken leaderboard and a lack of players. The broken leaderboard means that positions on the ladder are incorrect which causes poor MMR.

The lack of players is an even bigger issue. Essentially ANET had to make a decision between waiting 15 minutes to start a match or to start a match more quickly but add in some players who do not belong in the game. They choose the latter.

ANET is really feeling the effects of their decision to remove rewards from PvP. Hopefully once the new rewards are in place on April 15, we will see an increase in participation. That, along will a ladder logic revision is what is needed.

I think they could have spread out the low ranked players a bit. I should have had some of the other team’s new guys and they should have had some of ours. That way we don’t wait 15 minutes for a new game and the match is much fairer.

As for MMR and ranks…I’m saying that there’s a powerful correlation between ranks and MMR. If not, then the assumption is that the screenshot is just coincidence – that those who are new just happen to have lower ranks. Do you think that is true?

Nobody saids rank doesn’t matter. It’s an indicative of time spent playing PvP and has a huge impact at low ranks levels.
If a couple of rank 1x player are thrown at one side of an 4x-5x matchup, that team is likely to lose the game. Those players are just too unexperienced for the game they’re playing.

What most people said is that there’s a point where a player has attained enough game knowlodge and further experience becomes minor to other factors, and that’s what is wrong with your example. The new rank curve is going to differ only past rank 40 and the r1x player will REMAIN being r1x.
Should you expect the same result if a couple of rank 5x players were thrown into a r6x match? Probably not. At this level, there are just better indicatives for expected performance level and makes total sense to use them instead.

Honestly, all these complaints about the new rank system can only be understood as a request for keeping a long term, grindy nature, displayable goal.
Even if I disagree with the idea (I’m sorry, but I don’t buy that “this is an MMO, not a MOBA” thing :P), I can see that as a legit request, but please stop trying to convince us of rank being THAT meaningful through completely biased examples.

bhagwad.4281:

Second, looking at the ranks, is anyone surprised? I mean really? Those who say “ranks don’t matter” and “MMR =/= rank” have to realize that the correlation is strong enough to be a very solid causation.

There is a correlation. You invest more time into the game, therefore you should get better, and therefore your MMR should raise. But that’s all. The MMR is the measurement of your skill level, and therefore the best measurement for your skill.

MMR is way too easily skewed to be meaningful at least in its current implementation.

Yes, the MMR currently has huge problems, and I hope a rework is coming soon. The league system should refine the MMR.

But overthrowing the MMR system and instead just using the pvp rank is the wrong direction to go.

First step: Remove the glory rank to be shown in the score, and replace them with the ladder ranking. This will help each player to monitor the ranking system, and see how strong the difference between each player is in every match up.
Second and most important step: Resetting the ladder, and introducing a league like system, forcing players to play more games prior getting listed at the top. Currently you can just get lucky, win three games, and get listed at the top 100, which screws over the whole mmr system.

In my opinion it wont help in anything , the bigest problem is that the pvp comunity is just to low to have proper matches , atm there is like 20% of pvp ppl that actualy know what to do , how to rotate , what to do on certain maps etc. , 80% are pve heros , hot join heros , skyfarmer heros , casual ppl that have no clue what to do and how to react.

My advice? Go play whatever u like doesnt matter if its good or not , find smt u like to play , dont care about win , past weeks i am playing staff ele , ofc i die a lot , thiefs and necros are just kitten me but i realy enjoy playing it.

Oh jeez triple mesmer double engineer. I feel bad for the other team just looking at the matchup, never mind the ranks!

Arcturus.8109:

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

why is rank dont matter? well for example a experience guys creates new account and play pvp hes rank 1 and everyone can see but he performs like a rank 50+ also why leaderboard doesnt matter? this guy who just created an account go play with new players and carries the team he just win 10 consecutive win hes now at top 10 of the leaderboard. now why MMR doesnt matter? well same reasoning as before a new account gets high MMR thats why a few consecutive wins get him to top 10 even top 1 spot at the leaderboard. now what?

I just critted 10 times in a row with 11% critchance. Precision doesn’t matter. Checkmate, atheists!

How am I tired of seeing such “counterexamples” to statistically proved rules.

obviously if you crit 10 consecutive times with 11% critchance then crit chance dont matter coz you know something is broken. same goes to rank and MMR/ leaderboard its broken! FUBAR! hence making it not a reason for basing level of skills.

If games matched by rank I would go on a leaderboard rampage on my lvl 10 EU alt. I’d be winning every single game because my fellow r10s would be no match for my actual NA mmr.

Mmr works.

bhagwad.4281:

Uhtameit.2413:

bhagwad.4281:

But what am I to do? I’m in this to win and a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do!

I would suggest you are there to play a game so you probably should play what you enjoy most, regardless of victory and meta. But you know, killing the fun yourself by playing braindead specs must be a good solution too.

Oh and yeah, ofc, that’s not exactly possible in tournament. But facing braindead or becoming one is not appealing to me so I’d rather stay in HJ.

“Fun” – now there’s a loaded word. People play for different reasons. For me, the pain of playing a decap engi is obviously less than the “fun” of winning. So I’ll keep playing it till it’s changed.

And “fun” is not the only reason we play. It’s such a frivolous way of looking at things.

It’s a game, so yeah, I consider it in a frivolous perspective. Seems rather legit, don’t you think ?

Locuz.2651:

Uhtameit.2413:

But facing braindead or becoming one is not appealing to me so I’d rather stay in HJ.

So to be less braindead we should play hotjoins? Since thats where people play less cheesy builds while playing the game in an intelligent manner?

Is that what you’re saying?

Well, if I encounter hordes of people playing op builds in hotjoin, I can always pick another server. In tournament, you’re stuck and have to fight them. Needless to say, you need to play a braindead build yourself. I’m not willing to go that far to win, nor would I enjoy fighting the meta. So no tournament these days…

emm, if you cant kill a decap as a mesmer you are either PU/condition or you are doing something wrong, tbh.

and i dont think a decap should be talking about anything skill related.

and i know tons of rank 40 who cant even reach top 1000 leaderboard, also any actual good player can get a good mmr.

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

Arcturus.8109:

I just critted 10 times in a row with 11% critchance. Precision doesn’t matter. Checkmate, atheists!

How am I tired of seeing such “counterexamples” to statistically proved rules.

obviously if you crit 10 consecutive times with 11% critchance then crit chance dont matter coz you know something is broken. same goes to rank and MMR/ leaderboard its broken! FUBAR! hence making it not a reason for basing level of skills.

Wow… No, in that case I know that I was just lucky and the more hits I will do the closer to 11% will be my actual crit percentage. Same with rank and mmr, it might be wrong in some rare cases but generally it is right.