Guild Wars 2

.. for the next balance patch. Because PvP and PvE balance are still not separate! Balance team has to cater to PvE crowd which also means no drastic changes. And the first thing we need right now are drastic changes.

It should be like Guild Wars 1 with PvE and PvP versions of skills. BUT FOR SOME REASON everything in Guild Wars 2 just HAD to be different from GW1.

The reason has always been wvw. Basically pve heroes that farm gear in a pvp environment. They have to work less this way, they kill 3 birds in one shot

ReaperJr.5967:

.. for the next balance patch. Because PvP and PvE balance are still not separate! Balance team has to cater to PvE crowd which also means no drastic changes. And the first thing we need right now are drastic changes.

If they really insist on keeping the two modes with similar skill strengths, areas, and cooldown lengths then they should only balance for PvP but nerf PvE content accordingly to maintain the challenge level except where it needs buffing. Keep in mind that many of us vets have been playing since base game early release and have full ascended so our view of “challenge” is skewed and except for some new maps specifically designed to challenge veterans shouldn’t assume we’re in full ascended or even exotics. The old Orr’s challenge needs to be brought back though I remember doing okay with some yellows and greens…and not all gear was level 80. You learn to dodge the pullbacks and get your rotations and timings right.

I don’t mean to an extreme degree like Tangled Depths though that’s still the best map in the entire game but it’s somewhat worse now with the nerf. Can you get lost and killed at a confusing dead end? Good, then map awareness and logic get rewarded. The platforming is also nice when heading towards the diving area.

It also seems like the new AoE skills are “balanced” with PvP in mind since it feels like they’re intended to cover an entire node. Either cheap damage, node progress, or free invulnerability baiting taking advantage of the fact you have to stay on point. If I forget to switch to stone heart from diamond skin (which requires being above 90% health a thief just needs to hit you once for conditions to apply and damage gets applied faster than healing even with celestial) which is what I normally do depending on the opponent’s team comp then I know I can be in for a rough time.

If a teammate is using a tempest overload stand near them and use combo fields! Ele is the best class in the game across all game modes due to its versatility, flexibility (with celestial can do everything okay, air for damage, CC, and interrupts, fire for condition damage and damage and might stacking, water for CC, baiting dodges or applying invulnerability and healing, and earth for reflects and CC), group support and powerful combo fields with aurashare on top of that. I remember a big string of chill after a druid fired over my ice field.

Julian.2971:

The reason has always been wvw. Basically pve heroes that farm gear in a pvp environment. They have to work less this way, they kill 3 birds in one shot

Do you really truly believe that? Since when Anet balanced anything according to WvW?

WvW have been getting the short end of the stick since the begin. The most recent change that made major impact: stability.

Per chance anet fixed that? Of course not because they are fine in PvE and PvP, or actually was in PvP until HoT. Now PvP is getting a taste of what WvW has been suffering with and players been complaining since the change.

azyume.6321:

Julian.2971:

The reason has always been wvw. Basically pve heroes that farm gear in a pvp environment. They have to work less this way, they kill 3 birds in one shot

Do you really truly believe that? Since when Anet balanced anything according to WvW?

WvW have been getting the short end of the stick since the begin. The most recent change that made major impact: stability.

Per chance anet fixed that? Of course not because they are fine in PvE and PvP, or actually was in PvP until HoT. Now PvP is getting a taste of what WvW has been suffering with and players been complaining since the change.

ye true, if the game was balanced according to wvw, then you would never have made the stability stack patch, and you will never ever have create a a skill like revenant hammer 2.

azyume.6321:

Julian.2971:

The reason has always been wvw. Basically pve heroes that farm gear in a pvp environment. They have to work less this way, they kill 3 birds in one shot

Do you really truly believe that? Since when Anet balanced anything according to WvW?

WvW have been getting the short end of the stick since the begin. The most recent change that made major impact: stability.

Per chance anet fixed that? Of course not because they are fine in PvE and PvP, or actually was in PvP until HoT. Now PvP is getting a taste of what WvW has been suffering with and players been complaining since the change.

I had the same reaction. Is he really talking about WvW?

azyume.6321:

Julian.2971:

The reason has always been wvw. Basically pve heroes that farm gear in a pvp environment. They have to work less this way, they kill 3 birds in one shot

Do you really truly believe that? Since when Anet balanced anything according to WvW?

WvW have been getting the short end of the stick since the begin. The most recent change that made major impact: stability.

Per chance anet fixed that? Of course not because they are fine in PvE and PvP, or actually was in PvP until HoT. Now PvP is getting a taste of what WvW has been suffering with and players been complaining since the change.

Actually I’m pretty sure the stability rework was made for WvW. If I recall correctly they said stability shouldn’t make you able to cross an entire army of people without getting hit by cc which is purely about WvW.

azyume.6321:

Julian.2971:

The reason has always been wvw. Basically pve heroes that farm gear in a pvp environment. They have to work less this way, they kill 3 birds in one shot

Do you really truly believe that? Since when Anet balanced anything according to WvW?

WvW have been getting the short end of the stick since the begin. The most recent change that made major impact: stability.

Per chance anet fixed that? Of course not because they are fine in PvE and PvP, or actually was in PvP until HoT. Now PvP is getting a taste of what WvW has been suffering with and players been complaining since the change.

I’m not saying that anet balance everything according wvw, but because this mode is a mixture of pve and pvp, they prefer to balance once, having the 3 modes in mind and changing some modifiers between them.

In contrast of gw1, like twhite.9310 said, you had pvp only skills, they worked in different way. Now we have 3 game modes, so they thought that instead of balancing for pve and pve separately, they just needed to think in a global solution and they designed wvw to be a nexus.

It’s a lot of work, but way less than balancing separately

Stability change was one of the rare updates that was done due to WvW issues (at that time massive guard + war stacking on teams was meta), rest of updates are purely driven by #esports, a few pro player’s directions, and completely incompetent Anet balance staff (with bright moments here and there).

On many many Anet streams from WvW and sPvP staff was running purely WTF builds (OK Im not saying that all “wierd” builds are bad but they were running really really weird kitten) and talking about balance at the same time which was hilarious.

ReaperJr.5967:

.. for the next balance patch. Because PvP and PvE balance are still not separate! Balance team has to cater to PvE crowd which also means no drastic changes. And the first thing we need right now are drastic changes.

You don’t have high hopes for a team which took year and half to nerf celestial only to buff it by accident?

chibbi.3706:

Actually I’m pretty sure the stability rework was made for WvW. If I recall correctly they said stability shouldn’t make you able to cross an entire army of people without getting hit by cc which is purely about WvW.

That could have been their main intention but was nowhere near to what WvW needed. It is far from being balanced, it only induced the pirate ship meta which was finally the nail on the coffin to many guilds, making them quit entirely.

The stability change was more balanced to PvP than ever was to WvW. Anet couldn’t make it so to work to WvW because would kitten PvP and e-sports off. It is just a big fail.

Now with the new defiance bar and the new content, raids, which requires you to stun the bosses to not die from AoE and to actually kill them, the elite specs have a kitten ton of CC, thus making PvP stab just as a joke as it is in WvW.

I think Anet forgets they make such changes, they release new content which completely invalidates them and this will keep happening like a vicious circle until the game modes are separated from one another.

How will they fix both bunker meta in pvp and pirate ship meta in wvw? Reduce power creep? PvE is affected. Reduce CC? Raid is ruined. Increase condition to make up for power? PvP and WvW gets kittened. I don’t see the light in the end of the tunnel.

chibbi.3706:

Actually I’m pretty sure the stability rework was made for WvW. If I recall correctly they said stability shouldn’t make you able to cross an entire army of people without getting hit by cc which is purely about WvW.

That could have been their main intention but was nowhere near to what WvW needed. It is far from being balanced, it only induced the pirate ship meta which was finally the nail on the coffin to many guilds, making them quit entirely.

The stability change was more balanced to PvP than ever was to WvW. Anet couldn’t make it so to work to WvW because would kitten PvP and e-sports off. It is just a big fail.

Now with the new defiance bar and the new content, raids, which requires you to stun the bosses to not die from AoE and to actually kill them, the elite specs have a kitten ton of CC, thus making PvP stab just as a joke as it is in WvW.

I think Anet forgets they make such changes, they release new content which completely invalidates them and this will keep happening like a vicious circle until the game modes are separated from one another.

How will they fix both bunker meta in pvp and pirate ship meta in wvw? Reduce power creep? PvE is affected. Reduce CC? Raid is ruined. Increase condition to make up for power? PvP and WvW gets kittened. I don’t see the light in the end of the tunnel.

ReaperJr.5967:

.. for the next balance patch. Because PvP and PvE balance are still not separate! Balance team has to cater to PvE crowd which also means no drastic changes. And the first thing we need right now are drastic changes.

And with raids the issue is going to get worse. They aren’t going to want to make changes that might make raids significantly harder.

azyume.6321:

chibbi.3706:

Actually I’m pretty sure the stability rework was made for WvW. If I recall correctly they said stability shouldn’t make you able to cross an entire army of people without getting hit by cc which is purely about WvW.

That could have been their main intention but was nowhere near to what WvW needed. It is far from being balanced, it only induced the pirate ship meta which was finally the nail on the coffin to many guilds, making them quit entirely.

Spot on, that 1 change caused a massive degeneration in the WvW meta, something they still haven’t come to grips with even now. Heck they probably don’t even understand it.

Why I don’t have high hopes..?

-Cuz to much hype was made just to find out that it was all lot of HOT air.

get it?

I don’t have high hopes, because this is the direction Anet want the game to go in. Balance will be around esport observations, those were also the last balances added. In their eyes everything else is fine, maybe they will bow to pressure about warrs and thieves but that’s it.

chibbi.3706:

Actually I’m pretty sure the stability rework was made for WvW. If I recall correctly they said stability shouldn’t make you able to cross an entire army of people without getting hit by cc which is purely about WvW.

I agree. They prepared the pirateship meta this way to make revs OP as hell also in wvw.
Just look at the hammer skills in this new context.

You don’t need to separate balance if you put measures in place for it.

For example, there should be proper DPS caps for direct damage and conditions to avoid anyone being taken down in less than 2 or 3 second by one single enemy, and not going down in less than 1 second no matter what.

If you make those proper caps consider creature rank, they can be made to be much less strict for attacks against a creature of a higher rank such as elites or champions, while working with players to prevent excesses and gimmicky cheese builds, and preventing normal enemies from going down too fast, so more players can hit them and earn participation in events.

Without that, what we have is insanity in PvP and madness in PvE. With players going around spamming stuff mindlessly being more successful.

Hopes? This thing still exists? Woah…

i can see them adding a Boon called Hope that everyone can spam and in the description of it would be “LOL”

Zoltreez.6435:

i can see them adding a Boon called Hope that everyone can spam and in the description of it would be “LOL”

Boon effect: 25 stacks of torment and agony 100 (resist AR)… or the equivalent of what we suffered during the time we hoped for them to fix their kitten

I’m more concerned because they haven’t talked about any of the changes. That makes me believe the balancepatch will not be impactful, which means another boring season ahead.

They made a few mistakes.
First mistake: Not caring for conditions in PvE for so long
Second: Not adjusting condi damage for pvp/wvw after the ferocity patch in 2014.
Third: Catering PvE players as the PvE content will be consumed after a short while, while pvp/wvw is “endless” – but we had no devs for wvw for now 2 years – so of course they lost touch with it.
Fourth: Listening to those PvElers who wanted a trinity.
Fifth: Listening to those PvElers who wanted challenging content.
Sixth: Merging the traitlines and merging them like they did – just leave everything in it and put it together = “twice as many passives”.
Seventh: Not balancing the 3 traitlines mess.
Eigth: Releasing HoT on top of that which is catering the PvE players who need hand holding when encountering “challenging content”.

It’s pvp and wvw who suffer from this and I don’t see how anet will get out of that without separating all game modes. If they don’t start caring for pvp and wvw, their true endgame is dead.

Next balance patch won’t change much if Anet keep balancing classes around raids, and not pvp. If they tone down the power/cc creep, they will have to nerf raids ( and all the meta events based on timers). If they nerf raids, it will be the apocalypse on pve forums/reddit ( even if basicly the challenge will remain the same).
PvE population tears> PvP. We lose. And I don’t even want to talk about wvw and all the banners madness.

Seems like you have something against PvE, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but PvE player pool is bigger than that of both WvW and PvP combined, it is expected for them to care more and catter more to their will simply because satisfying their bigger player base means having more money in their pockets…
Another thing: there’s always this feeling where other has it better than you, it’s a renowned perceptual bias and it does apply in PvE too, where they feel prejudiced and neglected compared to the PvP community… you think they have it better, while it is not necessarily the case.
As far as I’m concerned, Anet seems to kitten us all equally… and there’s a general feeling of disappointment throughout the community

Pepsi.8907:

Seems like you have something against PvE, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but PvE player pool is bigger than that of both WvW and PvP combined, it is expected for them to care more and catter more to their will simply because satisfying their bigger player base means having more money in their pockets…
Another thing: there’s always this feeling where other has it better than you, it’s a renowned perceptual bias and it does apply in PvE too, where they feel prejudiced and neglected compared to the PvP community… you think they have it better, while it is not necessarily the case.
As far as I’m concerned, Anet seems to kitten us all equally… and there’s a general feeling of disappointment throughout the community

PvE players are mediocre at best (with few exceptions) – so they need all these CCs and passives for the new HoT maps and raids, otherwise they wouldn’t last longer than a minute. Problem is: all of this is used against other players in pvp and wvw as the modes aren’t separated. It was all fine before June, now it is just too much. Anet could’ve prevented this by making the new maps “less challenging” = boosting everybody and their mother less – and now they have to see how to balance this mess. I’m not saying you guys have it better, I’m just saying it’s impossible to satisfy “you”.
Don’t underestimate wvw and pvp btw.

ETA: It seems as if all resources went into PvE and that’s wrong in my opinion as pvp and especially wvw were completely neglected. So now they’ve nearly killed off wvw – and that’s still quite a lot of players who will eventually leave.

ETA²: And before someone gets me wrong and thinks I want a wvw overhaul – I don’t. I want it back to what it has been ~2 years ago when defense and offense were a lot more balanced than how it is now. Class balance is another topic, stability changes is another topic. I don’t want more PvE, I don’t want new maps, I don’t want mega servers, I don’t want new masteries and I don’t want anet to set the rules I want them to give us the tools for fair fights.
(Sorry for making this about wvw – it worked in the past with anet neglecting wvw but balancing pvp – that’s why I’m reading pvp forums – hope dies last)

Pepsi.8907:

Seems like you have something against PvE, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but PvE player pool is bigger than that of both WvW and PvP combined, it is expected for them to care more and catter more to their will simply because satisfying their bigger player base means having more money in their pockets…
Another thing: there’s always this feeling where other has it better than you, it’s a renowned perceptual bias and it does apply in PvE too, where they feel prejudiced and neglected compared to the PvP community… you think they have it better, while it is not necessarily the case.
As far as I’m concerned, Anet seems to kitten us all equally… and there’s a general feeling of disappointment throughout the community

I think you read too much into what I said. I have nothing against PvE. I, for one, enjoy raids and HoT maps. I am merely stating a fact.

It is true that the PvE crowd is larger.
As such, if balance is not separate, PvP will not see any major nerfs (which are much needed) as PvE content will be affected.

Aka PvP will not see the light of the day indirectly due to PvE. Fact.

Jana.6831:

Pepsi.8907:

Seems like you have something against PvE, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but PvE player pool is bigger than that of both WvW and PvP combined, it is expected for them to care more and catter more to their will simply because satisfying their bigger player base means having more money in their pockets…
Another thing: there’s always this feeling where other has it better than you, it’s a renowned perceptual bias and it does apply in PvE too, where they feel prejudiced and neglected compared to the PvP community… you think they have it better, while it is not necessarily the case.
As far as I’m concerned, Anet seems to kitten us all equally… and there’s a general feeling of disappointment throughout the community

PvE players are mediocre at best (with few exceptions) – so they need all these CCs and passives for the new HoT maps and raids, otherwise they wouldn’t last longer than a minute. Problem is: all of this is used against other players in pvp and wvw as the modes aren’t separated. It was all fine before June, now it is just too much. Anet could’ve prevented this by making the new maps “less challenging” = boosting everybody and their mother less – and now they have to see how to balance this mess. I’m not saying you guys have it better, I’m just saying it’s impossible to satisfy “you”.
Don’t underestimate wvw and pvp btw.

I don’t know why you’d thing I’d be a PvE player, and I dearly hope it’s simply not because I tried to be reasonable and logical in my observations and perceptions… let me tell you, however, that I’ve been an active PvP players for at least 2 years and barely set foot in PvE at all, except for a few guild mission or activities with friends, and if you do look at my post history, you’ll see that I always voice my thoughts as a PvP player, even going as far as refusing to help people in PvE because of my lack of knowledge.
You assumed false knowledge based on your interpretation of my post, which, in no way, implied that I played PvE and I’m tempted to think the same of your perception of the current problems and reasons in GW2’s balance. Your first post just accused everything on one single gamemode and your second dismissed the PvE community as a whole, calling them mediocre player… as far as I know you haven’t seen each individual playing PvE and observed their skills… I can personally state that nothing helped me more in learning the game’s mechanics and intricacies of elementalist like fractals did.
It is a challenging, and enjoyable, if repetitive and grinding content, but you dismissed them with barely a glance and fault all of PvP current problems on their shoulder, which is just pointless and uncalled for…
I can agree, however, that we do not have it better and that it is indeed impossible to satisfy our community…
In fact, I cannot remember any kind of playerbase that can be completely satisfied simply because it is not a single minded collectivity, but a rather large and heterogeneous group composed of incredibly diverse individuals.

Another matter:
CC and passive are indeed a problem, but we do not have the answer as to why it is present in such amount.
I would have wagered that the passive are so present because of Anet inability to play their game, thus trying to decrease the difference between players and make the fight relying more on RNG, builds and ingrained mechanics rather than reflex, knowledge and any form of skills, so that they’ll be able to spot problems, deficiencies or inequality faster rather than having to play a game so much that they have knowledge of the impact of their changes in any height of the PvP ladder.
As it is, the latter currently requires them to rely on the community rather than their own interpretations, so they are incorporating passive as a form of counter to that… That’s how I see it anyway, and yes it’s horrendous, flawed and lazy on their part… if that’s how it is, but I don’t know and I refrain from judgment, or waving my fingers at things I cannot be sure are responsible of this horrible meta we currently suffer from.
As for CC, I can hardly believe it’s to cater to the PvE playerbase, especially because any of the worthwhile content (and involved boss) is mostly immune if not excessively resistant to any form of CC currently existing…

ReaperJr.5967:

Pepsi.8907:

Seems like you have something against PvE, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but PvE player pool is bigger than that of both WvW and PvP combined, it is expected for them to care more and catter more to their will simply because satisfying their bigger player base means having more money in their pockets…
Another thing: there’s always this feeling where other has it better than you, it’s a renowned perceptual bias and it does apply in PvE too, where they feel prejudiced and neglected compared to the PvP community… you think they have it better, while it is not necessarily the case.
As far as I’m concerned, Anet seems to kitten us all equally… and there’s a general feeling of disappointment throughout the community

I think you read too much into what I said. I have nothing against PvE. I, for one, enjoy raids and HoT maps. I am merely stating a fact.

It is true that the PvE crowd is larger.
As such, if balance is not separate, PvP will not see any major nerfs (which are much needed) as PvE content will be affected.

Aka PvP will not see the light of the day indirectly due to PvE. Fact.

I’m sorry, I forgot to quote in my first post, but intended my first message mostly at Jana… I do agree that problem will arise in both game mode as long as they are not completely separated, but all of our current disappointment and problems are sorely from the PvE players as if a huge conspiracy was going on… it’s simply a direct effect of supply and demand and it is perfectly logical to some extent.

Pepsi.8907:

I don’t know why you’d thing I’d be a PvE player, and I dearly hope it’s simply not because I tried to be reasonable and logical in my observations and perceptions…

I think so because you defended PvE players – no real pvp or wvw player would do so. And I actually think that the PvE player pool is overrated but alas, only anet has got the real numbers.

Pepsi.8907:

Your first post just accused everything on one single gamemode and your second dismissed the PvE community as a whole, calling them mediocre player… as far as I know you haven’t seen each individual playing PvE and observed their skills…

So you accuse me of making assumptions and make assumptions – alright then.
I have been in only PvE for the first 3 months – with only PvE players who I would call pretty decent (our server had a daily train – we all met up and did all world bosses 2 years ago). Then I started to play wvw and it was a real difference. I’ve got PvE and wvw player friends – you can do anything with wvw players and it will be 200% more likely a success than if you do the same with pure PvE players. That’s where my “assumption” comes from. Of course there are exceptions – you may or may not count yourself to them.

Pepsi.8907:

I can personally state that nothing helped me more in learning the game’s mechanics and intricacies of elementalist like fractals did.

Try wvw. Btw my fractal level is somewhere around 45? – haven’t looked for quite a while. And yeah – I can solo quite a lot of end bosses with my squishy thief – important when 2 of the party are dead and the other 2 afk.

Pepsi.8907:

Another matter:
CC and passive are indeed a problem, but we do not have the answer as to why it is present in such amount.

We have: the defiance bar – the newly added second “healthpool” to bosses – to break it you need CC.

Pepsi.8907:

I would have wagered that the passive are so present because of Anet inability to play their game, thus trying to decrease the difference between players and make the fight relying more on RNG, builds and ingrained mechanics rather than reflex, knowledge and any form of skills, so that they’ll be able to spot problems, deficiencies or inequality faster rather than having to play a game so much that they have knowledge of the impact of their changes in any height of the PvP ladder.

I don’t think so but I can only assume as well. And they should never ever rely on their community. We on the forums are only a small group of the player base and our assumptions might be wrong – that’s why my main is currently dead – because the player base had too much say. It kills more than it helps.

Edit: Spelling (fun fact: I spelled all “assumptions” wrong)