Why I think GW2 sPvP is dying
It’s an old song and dance. GW2 isn’t what GW1 was, even in Prophecies, and it’s probably not going to change much. I think ANet’s head honchos were polluted by worse games sometime in the last five years.
It’ll probably be a year or two before we see real skill and trait content that will open the doors up on what’s possible. It’ll probably even be half a year until we get the skills fixed that we have now.
The way I see it is, many of the builds in GW1 were invented by the players. Anet never anticipated them. They integrated these into the game with balance changes, fleshing out the meta in the process. In GW2, the only builds are ones Anet personally invented. These are mostly terrible. Anet has never been any good at making their own builds, for some reason. Consequently, most professions have one or two build types with very minor alterations that everyone runs, and 75% of the secondary skills and traits are never even touched, because they either don’t work, or worse, they are simply bad skills. Even the poster child for “we’re satisfied with it” – the Warrior – has this problem in spades, as everyone runs some variation on healing shouts, simply because stances, signets and banners are generally a bad idea, with very small exceptions. A good portion of our Anet-brand builds aren’t used because Anet signed off on bad builds. I’m personally waiting around for some major rebalance patch in the next few months. Right now, the meta is just too limited by Anet’s paranoid stranglehold on the metagame. I’ve never agreed with their “it made balance too much of a problem” stance that they retroactively started spouting after GW2 began its alphas. It just sounded like bogus market speak to me.
Op i 100% agree with you. I wish gw1 was still alive and kicking so i could play that game some more (already 6000+ hours)… That game was amazing.
This game is for a completely different crowd than gw1, and thats the problem. People who came here from gw1 dont like it, but most people coming here from wow love it.
I want another gw1 with different skills, professions, storylines, and pvp modes. They had almost EVERYTHING perfect in that game.
Just compare the current state of Guild Wars 2 to that of Guild Wars a few months after release. Guild Wars had a thriving competitive community with thousands of guilds battling it out on GvG ladder. The oh so needed observer mode was patched into Guild Wars at this time. Every competitive guild was looking forward to the announced Guild Wars World Championship. While Guild Wars 2 currently barely has the tools need for a competitive game let alone the e-sport game the developers strive to be.
The only thing that was equally as bad in Guild Wars 1 was the balance. Only in the last few months before the release of the first expansion pack Factions the game was fairly balanced.
pvp as a solo player is really bad experience in gw2 worse than any game ive played before. spvp is a zergy mess and tournies are just pug farming by premades. hopefully this gets addressed.
Sprawl – Necro – Eredon Terrace
There’s no variety in builds, 50% of people are playing thiefs due to rendering issue, downed state makes 1v2s impossible, there’s no feeling of skill in gw2 and no sense of versatility., there’s no rewards, it’s quite disappointing to say the least.
@anthonyzdravko
downed state makes 1v2 impossible? no skill? …
Don’t post thief videos, that doesn’t even count. besides i’ve already seen it. :P
you can even see half the time when he comes out of stealth on his screen people are still swinging at air, in WvW thiefs render so poorly it’s ridiculous.
i do commend him using pistol though(which hes quite good with), that’s different from the norm at least.
Also he can stealth to stomp people, most other classes don’t have that luxury.
(edited by AnthonyZdravko.2051)
There’s no variety in builds, 50% of people are playing thiefs due to rendering issue, downed state makes 1v2s impossible, there’s no feeling of skill in gw2 and no sense of versatility., there’s no rewards, it’s quite disappointing to say the least.
50% ? Have you actually played any tournaments in this game ? free ones ? paid ones ? Clearly you know very little since you assume there is a 50% thief player base in the game , I recommend trying some tpvp or watch some tournament streams on twitch and come back to us later.
play hard , go pro.
There’s no variety in builds, 50% of people are playing thiefs due to rendering issue, downed state makes 1v2s impossible, there’s no feeling of skill in gw2 and no sense of versatility., there’s no rewards, it’s quite disappointing to say the least.
50% ? Have you actually played any tournaments in this game ? free ones ? paid ones ? Clearly you know very little since you assume there is a 50% thief player base in the game , I recommend trying some tpvp or watch some tournament streams on twitch and come back to us later.
i know in tournaments it’s not all thieves obviously, but more people play hot join Spvp than tournaments and having thieves everyone insta-gibbing anyone who isn’t a thief is doing this game harm.
first part of that video is him (thief) doing 1v2 against not one but 2 thieves.
how come he won with all those rendering issues etc, his opponents were also poorly rendered
ArenaNet wanted a piece of WoW’s popularity, so they gave up their originality for simplicity and catered to the masses. From a business standpoint that’s probably smart. Most customers don’t even PvP. However longterm it could hurt them gravely. Nobody remembers a game for how much it sold.
Build diversity is pitiful. You may think with so many traits there are probably just builds people haven’t discovered? Except so many traits and skills are simply horrible or bugged, with absolutely zero indication from ArenaNet that they’ll ever be fixed. There are traits that have been bugged since BWE #1.
Everyone is using the same few builds because they’re the only ones that work and/or are fun. Therefore, PvP is stale.
Haha, what an awful video.
He literally pressed 2 keys to win every fight….1,1,1,1,5,1,1,1,1,5,1,1,5.etc
It’s a pretty kitten big advantage being able to go invisible every 4 seconds for 3 secs at a time. Combine that with rendering delay…wow…
That guy really actually believes he’s good, hilarious.
except he didnt use 2 keys to win. anyone who saw that video will know you are not telling the truth lol, why would you even waste time typing false info
the point that i’m trying to make is not that gw2 pvp system is great (ofc it has problems), but skill does matter, 1v2 is possible, and there is versatility in builds
but skill does matter, 1v2 is possible, and there is versatility in builds
it doesn’t matter as much as it should.
While 1v2 is possible, it’s not if both people you are fighting are even slightly competent. Teammate goes down you instantly CC enemy(knockdown, knockback) and can rez your teammate in a couple of seconds…or even better, be an elementalist start rezzing and pop mist form. That’s coming from myself, an elementalist and i think it’s stupid. Not to mention while downed, i can toss 1.6k crits every second at you, am i really even out of the fight?
Versatility is very limited, i expected a lot more, sure there’s some but no where near enough, pvp gets stale fast. i’ve tried every build there is on my ele and most feel very similar and very few are decent and next to none are good.
even a competent player will have trouble interrupting your stomp if you use stability.
and downed state doesn’t mean you are out of the fight, if that were true what would be the point of having downed state in game? if your health reaches 0 you are dead and out of the fight, downed state is here to give you a fighting chance even after health reaches 0.
Cova, did you even look at what he pressed?
He never once, not once in the entire video did he press keys 2,3 or 4 or switch weapon sets. He pressed the steal button once in about 20 encounters.
At all!
He only used the 2 poisons and his dancing daggers occasionally.
Prove me wrong? IN fact anyone watching can confirm that what he did could have been done by a macro programme with equal success. That’s how much skill a thief takes.
The thread title here is pretty unforgiving... and generally accurate. How much dying is going on is a matter of opinion and contention, but no one can deny the pvp fanbase is creeping towards a trough-level for those who can stand/excel with it, and the iron isn’t hot anymore. Regardless, Anet could make some fundamental changes (that don’t seem all that difficult or expensive) to create an excellent pvp game with wide appeal. I’m worried, however, that they will not do so in favor of possible e-sports money, and corporate ’business-as-usual’ not allowing the admittance of a mistake.
Still, I’ll state why I think it’s dying in the most constructive way possible
#1 Conquest (the only mode)
a) requires too much communication for largest demographic. As it stands, you must have 4 friends playing in voip to get a fair competition: craziness!
b) many people just want to fight, not stand in circles or take down objectives
c) some class mechanics favor point capturing (superior mobiliy or defense), while for others points are a crutch (ranged and cloth generally don’t do well standing in node circles eating melee attacks). This also compounds views on class OPness.
d) there’s hardly ever a fair, balanced skirmish: either I get outnumbered, or the enemy does, and it’s just not that competitive or satisfying.
#2 Bugs and Balance
a) bugs are what they are: a huge disadvantage/exploit and a disheartening frustration
b) balance is what it is: apparently better than whatever lame bar the last crap game put up, which means little to me. i’m playing all 8 classes and some really are easier, safer, more fun, more effective, or more desired/tolerated in tpvp’s ’real competition’. When one class simply outmodes my favorite, it doesn’t make me wanna play that class, but rather it makes me enjoy my fav/all others/the game even less.
#3 Faith (in change)
a) It’s apparent e-sports has got this thing by the throat. People don’t really expect a major deviation from this failed tunnel-vision platform to a wonderful, versatile, pvp game that accommodates everyone, or even the majority.
b) Many bugs and exploits have been around since beta
c) The claim that the meta just doesn’t know how to have fun or play is unintelligent
I should state that I dislike corporations, but love people (in or out of them). I think companies reduce nearly every human endeavor to a profit game. I also believe, through compartmentalization, they short change themselves (to much less outrage).
Come on Anet! You’ve got a nice framework in place, but everyone makes mistakes, and pvp should be doing a whole lot better. Please don’t spread yourselves thin while continuing to box the game in and around e-sports, conquest, and red/blue dyes: turn this thing around!
phaeris, click on the link i gave in my post, go to 1 minute 24 seconds and watch what happens. after that, come here and tell me that i was the only one who saw him switch weaponsets (you claim he did not) and that he used dagger/dagger skill 3 (again, you claim he did not use 2,3 or 4).
No offense guys, but can we take the thief discussion to the thief thread? or PM?
I just spent an hour composing a synopsis of what’s really wrong with pvp, and I don’t want it buried under acute or off-topic distractions. Thanks
no offense man, but i tried to disprove some of the posters here that think pvp in gw2 is dying cause of some dumb reasons that can be explained by lack of ability to improve (someone said 1v2 is imposible, skill is not a factor etc) we dont need posts like those, so i argued them. we need more posts like yours…thats all
I totally understand. Nothing personal towards anyone. Thanks again, and good luck!
Right now the frame work has a lot of potential, but that’s really all it is right now. The gameplay is pretty good, there are definitely some things that stand out but with time should be fixed and ironed out. Still a long way to go in this regard but I wouldn’t say the gameplay is killing the game as I feel the gameplay is still better than what other competing games offer.
The real problem is the accessibility and reward systems. This really hurts the casual base which is 100% necessary to support the competitive scene.
There is nearly nothing in this game for a player who doesn’t have a team or whose team isn’t on. The highest skill cap in this game is by far team coordination over individual skill. Without a consistent team there is little improvement that can be made after a certain point.
This has a lot to do with how games are played. 1v1s aren’t strictly supported in a hold the point game type, especially with bunkers being present whose role is to stall for backup. 1v1s are really the only area individual skill predominates and is favorable for a solo player. I am not really interested in playing in 1v2s in a pug tourny setting as there is just less you can learn from it without voice com. So the current game type doesn’t support solo play well and there are no alternatives yet.
Voice com is also over emphasized. In games like league and starcraft a solo player has access to the same information as their allies without the need to directly communicate. Gw2 restricts the information a player receives to what they see and what their team tells them, greatly restricting the impact a solo player could have on the game.
The reward system is also awfully linear with time.
Most games have systems in place that give casual players an extra boost such as first win of the day or daily quests. Just a higher initial progression at the start of each day to help encourage players without as much time on their hands. Tournament ticket rewards should have something in place that takes this into account.
The other things is there is no real long term goal the game innately rewards people with. It seems like the intended goal is to push players to more competitive scenes which wouldn’t appeal to the casual base and requires forming a commitment to a team. The pvp skins and glory ranks aren’t enough of a goal for casual players. This just isn’t as motivating as unlocking say new champions or runes. A better overlap between pvp rewards and pve would be a good start.
I was probably spoiled too much by Guild Wars and the PvP contained in that game. Compared to it’s predecessor the PvP in Guild Wars 2 is really lacking. We have one game mode and four maps, WvWvW is a good addition to PvP but it’s addition wasn’t worth what we lost: Random Arenas, Team Arenas, Heroes’ Ascent and Guild vs Guild – that’s without including the Lowbie Arenas and the additions from Factions (Fort Aspenwood and Jade Quarry… Alliance Battle was essentially a better version of GW2’s Conquest).
I play Warrior, Guardian, Elementalist and Thief.
(edited by Varyag.3751)
As I tried to say in a topic a day or two ago (that got no replies…), GW2 PvP seems to be heavily balanced by 1v1 testing. 1v1 fights seem to be the most fun and balanced, and often take more or less the right amount of time to feel satisfying. The more people involved, the more messy it becomes.
A lot of the reason why is that healing is balanced for the individual player and whoever they were testing the profession against in alphas (apparently). As there’s no party healing mechanic due to there not being any monks, this healing doesn’t scale to the damage you will receive when targeted by more than one person. Consequently, combat largely favors DPS and focus-burning targets down OR bunker-builds that rely heavily on stacking various kinds of protection, blocks and so on to account for this. The damage you take will always increase as more people get involved, and as soon as someone else shows up in a fight, it becomes very unfair for whoever is outmanned (not that you can’t fight back, but there’s a big difference compared to a fair fight).
I feel like the solution to that problem is to have some natural resistance or diminishing return to damage poured onto a single player, by other players. As healing never gets any better or any easier to create, and group healing is so awkward and difficult to coordinate, I feel like some natural DR to damage is warranted, to help scale damage. This would also go a long way in WvW, to prevent one person evaporating as fifty people roll over them, or even just ten or so. Having ten people spiking you should still take at least half as long as a single person wailing on you, not directly be 1/10th the speed of a normal fight.
That’s not the only problem with the PvP, but the one thing starkly different especially between GW1 and 2 is that combat doesn’t scale as more people get involved because there are no Heal Party or Word of Healing style moves that will mitigate an entire group trying to kill off one person, and especially no one person to do that job. That lack of scaling in GW2 makes the combat feel very messy and frantic because the pace is not evenly distributed during gameplay.
As I tried to say in a topic a day or two ago (that got no replies…), GW2 PvP seems to be heavily balanced by 1v1 testing. 1v1 fights seem to be the most fun and balanced
Tell that to anyone but a bunker build when you have to react within 0.2 seconds or else you’re basically dead to a thief spec’d for insta-gib.
Cloak and dagger+steal+backstab for all your health within a fraction of a second…not too fun imo.
That’ll happen in group play anyway. It’s an issue with how broken some of the Thief’s mechanics are right now, not with the flow of scaling combat. It’s another issue entirely, and one very similar to the problem Assassins in GW1 had. (You don’t ever introduce a class into the game that’s predicated on spiking another player to death in a couple of seconds because you have to treat them like boss characters, but that’s another discussion.)
What’s great about GW2 PvP is that it’s different enough from WoW and GW1, and seems to upset players of those two games the most, that it will build an entirely new fanbase over time.
I find that the slower paced, rotation rock-scissors-paper style gameplay of former MMOs has been replaced with a need for faster reflexes, good positioning, map control, movement, proactive action that requires vision and knowledge of what each class excels at.
Overall, it’s not dying, though the initial hype will go away, a strong foundation will be built from the ground up after the unhappy players finally quit. This game is just starting, it’s nowhere near dying.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
What’s great about GW2 PvP is that it’s different enough from WoW and GW1, and seems to upset players of those two games the most, that it will build an entirely new fanbase over time.
That isn’t the issue at all, it’s the lack of content and variety combined with the very slow and minor balancing updates. The new combat system shouldn’t be changed.
I play Warrior, Guardian, Elementalist and Thief.
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The thread title here is pretty unforgiving… and generally accurate. How much dying is going on is a matter of opinion and contention, but no one can deny the pvp fanbase is creeping towards a trough-level for those who can stand/excel with it, and the iron isn’t hot anymore. Regardless, Anet could make some fundamental changes (that don’t seem all that difficult or expensive) to create an excellent pvp game with wide appeal. I’m worried, however, that they will not do so in favor of possible e-sports money, and corporate ’business-as-usual’ not allowing the admittance of a mistake.
Still, I’ll state why I think it’s dying in the most constructive way possible
- Conquest (the only mode)
a) requires too much communication for largest demographic. As it stands, you must have 4 friends playing in voip to get a fair competition: craziness!
b) many people just want to fight, not stand in circles or take down objectives
c) some class mechanics favor point capturing (superior mobiliy or defense), while for others points are a crutch (ranged and cloth generally don’t do well standing in node circles eating melee attacks). This also compounds views on class OPness.
d) there’s hardly ever a fair, balanced skirmish: either I get outnumbered, or the enemy does, and it’s just not that competitive or satisfying. - Bugs and Balance
a) bugs are what they are: a huge disadvantage/exploit and a disheartening frustration
b) balance is what it is: apparently better than whatever lame bar the last crap game put up, which means little to me. i’m playing all 8 classes and some really are easier, safer, more fun, more effective, or more desired/tolerated in tpvp’s ’real competition’. When one class simply outmodes my favorite, it doesn’t make me wanna play that class, but rather it makes me enjoy my fav/all others/the game even less. - Faith (in change)
a) It’s apparent e-sports has got this thing by the throat. People don’t really expect a major deviation from this failed tunnel-vision platform to a wonderful, versatile, pvp game that accommodates everyone, or even the majority.
b) Many bugs and exploits have been around since beta
c) The claim that the meta just doesn’t know how to have fun or play is unintelligent
I should state that I dislike corporations, but love people (in or out of them). I think companies reduce nearly every human endeavor to a profit game. I also believe, through compartmentalization, they short change themselves (to much less outrage).
Come on Anet! You’ve got a nice framework in place, but everyone makes mistakes, and pvp should be doing a whole lot better. Please don’t spread yourselves thin while continuing to box the game in and around e-sports, conquest, and red/blue dyes: turn this thing around!
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Love this post. It accurately encompasses how many of us feel. Many people are very passionate about the game but we feel it’s greatly selling itself short. Like you said, the foundation is fantastic, but the way it’s being utilized (imo) is not. I remember playing SWTOR and thinking “there is no way they can fix this”, because the engine was clunky, unresponsive and the games mechanics were genuinely flawed (for pvp). This game is not at all like that. The game feels fluid and very responsive. The combat is very very fun. There is a ton of potential here, but balance, pigeonholing, and lack of options/diversity is killing it for me.
I think they should have a) made the game fun with multiple game modes and let the masses come in and STAY in and then b) after the game has a hold in the market and people know and understand the brand, then make it an e-sport.
I just feel at this pace, the game will become an e-sport with a tiny fanbase because they allowed all the core people to leave while the stagnant game was being developed into an e-sport.
We vent, because we care. Anet, we just hope you understand that.
feLIVEar: Your resident forum king.
Give us support in GW1 so we can go back to a game where PvP was great and original as there is nothing original about GW2.
The second post above mine, guildwars 1 wasn’t balanced around any kind of rock paper scissors and I don’t think guildwars 2 is either (pretty much is a fact really), however… It kind of seems like it does fit this video
In gw1 you had healers (casters), dps casters and melee, and you had anti melee classes, anti caster classes, but the ele could pretty much do everything and evolved into one with all pretty much effectively removing necro off his anti melee spot.
I must’ve missed the sign that said it was a fire sale.
(edited by R E F L H E X.8413)
What’s great about GW2 PvP is that it’s different enough from WoW and GW1, and seems to upset players of those two games the most, that it will build an entirely new fanbase over time.
That isn’t the issue at all, it’s the lack of content and variety combined with the very slow and minor balancing updates. The new combat system shouldn’t be changed.
this ^. i quit gw2 entirely because it is a half baked game with 0 endgame content, or even pvp content. spvp is so stale, wvw is boring since progression is basically non existent once you hit 80 and get your first set, the pve is ridiculously boring. what else is there to say?
In my opinion the big problem as mentioned before is the lack of build creativity. 3 of the 6 traits in every row are pre selected, usually with useless traits. I main a warrior, if I go full vitality, all i get is faster reviving and giving buff when I revive, seriously wtf do I want reviving for. In spvp I either revive you via Elite banner or by giving you a rally. If i bow and start reviving you I most likely will get the two of us killed. I go for more precision I get stuff centered in bleeds, what if I don’t want to use bleeds or my build has no condition damage at all?
This combined with the fact that healing is the only way to go as the game is domination/conquest oriented. Choices are simple for most classes, go glass cannon and kill someone you take by surprise or go bunker and win the game.
Class balance is mainly poor because some classes are given too much and some are given too little. Example: Warriors stances, banners, signets and over all melee gameplay is horribly design. This leaves shouts as the only option, and since healing shouts is the only way to support, self heal and take conditions off without insane cool downs well that’s what everyone does. On my guardian is the same, I enjoyed playing with spiritual weapons on a balanced build. But greatsword/other weapons + healing meditations = I Can’t really die and still deal decent damage, so why play anything else.
Many matches are one sided due to this same problem, elementalist can become bullet proof and whatever scratch you put on them they heal back asap. Need to escape no problem. Mesmers with stealth and teleport makes it almost impossible for any melee class except thiefs to win. While the ability to finish people in stealth pretty much disables the whole point of a down state.
The class balance int his game is beyond horrid. Class bugs also dominate the playing field and the fact that some classes do 20k damage in 2 maybe 3 buttons max, while others struggle to hit 12k with 10 buttons is just stupid.
The thing that really ticks me off is the fact that the devs think for one second that this game can be in e-sport…a LOT of things would have to change because I am sorry but this is just bad, very very very bad.
I love this game and I love ANet, but for a company that put so much emphasis on pvp during development fell less than short in delivery.
Lack of ranking system for tourny’s (free, meaning pro teams farm people trying to get the hang of it) class balance, class bugs, no real rewards, the fact you can’t take the gear you earn into PvE (and visa versa) it just all adds up.
People say “oh thats just a small thing” but there are a LOT of small things that add up to a decent amount of big things.
Not to rant, but one of the things that makes me the most upset….is that the devs and whoever is in charge of PvP actually looked at the state of the game, looked at the bugs, looked at the damage, bunkers etc….and went “Yep good for launch”
Here we are months later and still the same thing “Yeah it’s good to go!” I understand they are tweaking still, but they need to hurry up because there is no way this level of balance (or lack there of) and bugs etc is passable…
Nope there fixing the problem, by ignoring all the gross imbalances and talentless insane dps 2-4 button clicks.
Soon they’ll be so few players there will be no need to maintain the servers and no game to work on, problem solved.
@Lyonell: I agree
Conquest requires extremes in defending and attacking, and makes for low build variety.
3 of 6 traits in a line being pre-selected does seem narrow. I’d like to see those traits with selections available as well, to increase variety, diversity, creativity, and synergy of builds.
I’d also like to see 3 more utility slots for the standard ‘stun-break, cleanse, and go-to’ that every build generally needs. That way we could dabble in the 12+ other cool abilities we generally don’t get to use.
Class balance: it’s off. And yeah: holy crap with the spirit weapon + greatsword guardians.
@REFLHEX: I didn’t play that game, yet the video is hilarious
(edited by Master Charles.7093)
The PvE side of the game is extremely well polished with few exceptions. WvW is a ton of fun.
sPvp is nice, but can’t hold a candle to what gw1 was at launch. I think plague nailed it on the head when he said:
The way I see it is, many of the builds in GW1 were invented by the players. Anet never anticipated them. They integrated these into the game with balance changes, fleshing out the meta in the process. In GW2, the only builds are ones Anet personally invented. These are mostly terrible.
Ya… they reinvented the wheel alright. Looks rather square shaped this time around.
@aydenunited… dude positioning is a concept of strategy that gamers are very familiar with and enjoy. This game just doesnt have it. Somewhere between conquest points, downed states, and gap closers positioning got simplified to “spread out”.
This thread isnt a knee jerk reaction to arenanets attempt at innovation. I and several others saw very early on that this game had new concepts and we gave them a good try with an open mind w others squabbled about fine class balance points.
This thread talks about how the new innovations are just bad and points to an example of good, and talks about some of the obstacles between the current bad and desired good. Elephant being anets stubourness about this esport first (fun later) business.