Why Necro and Mesmer should be buffed?
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if necro was so weak i wouldnt be bumping into 3 necro teams over and over , at this point they making thief look bad .
if necro was so weak i wouldnt be bumping into 3 necro teams over and over , at this point they making thief look bad .
It’s a Necromancer Win daily today.
What would happen to this game if necros would gain the ability to hugely mitigate focus fire with death shroud? Not the community or the devs want to know, the latter are well aware of what would happen to the game if necro would gain a powered up version of DS.
We would finally have the access to the same thing that everyone else can do. Yeah, it’d be insanely broken if Necromancer was suddenly balanced.
Worst of all, you suggest to have a scaling death shroud. You want this mechanic to get stronger as the number of enemies increase……sorry bro, are you 100% certain about what you’re asking?
I’m asking for defense that does not lose effectiveness against multiple enemies. An invulnerability doesn’t break after kittens or 10,000 damage, it invalidates all attacks against you for the duration of the invulnerability. This is true of dodges, blocks, invulns, evades, but nothing that Necromancer has.
First of all, can you explain what you mean for focus fire?
There is no meta build in the game that survive a huge amount of time when heavily focused by more than 1 player
Necromancer is the only profession that cannot negate damage beyond our first two dodges. Evades, blocks, vigor, none of it. We just sit there taking the damage, and pray that we have enough HP to passively tank it. This is bad design.
What you’re really talking about is dmg avoidance that some professions possess( ele, warrior, thief, guardian, engi), they’re able to quickly move out of combat to lose focus; here I can say " yes necro do lack in the dmg avoidance department".
The necro is more than fine in the in-combat survivability department, for a class that does not need healing power or high toughness, the necro does more than fine in mitigating dmg. What necro needs need are ways to get of trouble when things get hot and I fully agree about this.
I’m asking for a block, evade, faster blinds, aegis, invuln, to be accessible via traits or skills so that we are on an equal defensive footing. I specifically do not want the ability to leave a fight, that isn’t what we are designed to do. I want (balanced versions) of things like Renewed Focus, the various warrior stances, mist form, blurred frenzy, etc.
I agree that in small fights (1v1, 2v2) Necromancer has good mitigation, even great mitigation if they build for it (other issues afflict those builds but that is an aside to our defense). It is only when CC and offensive pressure overwhelms our extremely limited dodges or kiting and removes our ability to actually apply our mitigating conditions and gain LF that we see an issue. Things like blocks, invulns, and stability (in balanced durations and accessibility, giving up a fair amount of offense or utility to gain them) would help a ton here.
Your suggestion: a scaling DS, would transform the necro in a super bunker, something that can absorb dmg incoming from multiple sources…that would be silly, sorry to say that.
I’m not asking for DS to simply gain 20% LF per nearby enemy, I’m just pointing out that it is the only defense we really have, and we are the only profession whose primary defense gets worse and worse the more enemies there are. In essence I’m asking for some defense that actually works the same in 1v1s and 5v5s, which is something that Deathshroud currently does not do at all.
What would happen to this game if necros would gain the ability to hugely mitigate focus fire with death shroud? Not the community or the devs want to know, the latter are well aware of what would happen to the game if necro would gain a powered up version of DS.
We would finally have the access to the same thing that everyone else can do. Yeah, it’d be insanely broken if Necromancer was suddenly balanced.
Worst of all, you suggest to have a scaling death shroud. You want this mechanic to get stronger as the number of enemies increase……sorry bro, are you 100% certain about what you’re asking?
I’m asking for defense that does not lose effectiveness against multiple enemies. An invulnerability doesn’t break after kittens or 10,000 damage, it invalidates all attacks against you for the duration of the invulnerability. This is true of dodges, blocks, invulns, evades, but nothing that Necromancer has.
First of all, can you explain what you mean for focus fire?
There is no meta build in the game that survive a huge amount of time when heavily focused by more than 1 playerNecromancer is the only profession that cannot negate damage beyond our first two dodges. Evades, blocks, vigor, none of it. We just sit there taking the damage, and pray that we have enough HP to passively tank it. This is bad design.
What you’re really talking about is dmg avoidance that some professions possess( ele, warrior, thief, guardian, engi), they’re able to quickly move out of combat to lose focus; here I can say " yes necro do lack in the dmg avoidance department".
The necro is more than fine in the in-combat survivability department, for a class that does not need healing power or high toughness, the necro does more than fine in mitigating dmg. What necro needs need are ways to get of trouble when things get hot and I fully agree about this.
I’m asking for a block, evade, faster blinds, aegis, invuln, to be accessible via traits or skills so that we are on an equal defensive footing. I specifically do not want the ability to leave a fight, that isn’t what we are designed to do. I want (balanced versions) of things like Renewed Focus, the various warrior stances, mist form, blurred frenzy, etc.
I agree that in small fights (1v1, 2v2) Necromancer has good mitigation, even great mitigation if they build for it (other issues afflict those builds but that is an aside to our defense). It is only when CC and offensive pressure overwhelms our extremely limited dodges or kiting and removes our ability to actually apply our mitigating conditions and gain LF that we see an issue. Things like blocks, invulns, and stability (in balanced durations and accessibility, giving up a fair amount of offense or utility to gain them) would help a ton here.
Your suggestion: a scaling DS, would transform the necro in a super bunker, something that can absorb dmg incoming from multiple sources…that would be silly, sorry to say that.
I’m not asking for DS to simply gain 20% LF per nearby enemy, I’m just pointing out that it is the only defense we really have, and we are the only profession whose primary defense gets worse and worse the more enemies there are. In essence I’m asking for some defense that actually works the same in 1v1s and 5v5s, which is something that Deathshroud currently does not do at all.
how do engi,thief,ranger,ranger,mesmer defenses get better the more enemies that focus you? anyone that gets focused by 3+ players will most likely die specially against a coordinated team with lot of cc
but hey i wouldnt mind necro having more survive if they lost their 8k+ damage autos
Never talked about what Mesmer community desire…I’ve simply stated what should be given, whether you’ll personally like it or not, well surely is none of my concerns.
My point simply is that we cannot have a burst build with the defensive potential to match a bruiser build or even negate the role thieves excel at, because at that point then I ask for a revamped fresh air build, zerker staff and even d/f zerker
In the end whenever I use a zerker amulet on any other profession…I get hunted by thieves too, I get focused too so if a shatter Mesmer should be buffed, then all other zerker builds should be buffed too and I’m all for it my friend
Most of us were not in favor of the damage on greatsword being buffed over and over. (It’s almost all because of air and fire, by the way. Without those two greatsword’s ranged damage is mediocre).
Whatever else you can say about Mesmer damage, it’s completely predictable. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Mesmers never have trouble with other Mesmers themselves? But it begs the question, doesn’kitten If shatter Mesmer’s so strong and simple to play, why aren’t you out playing it right now?
As a related aside you’re “stating what should be [a] given”, okay, who the hell are you exactly? This is the very reason why message boards are useless.
Much of this. So much of it.
Teef master race
What would happen to this game if necros would gain the ability to hugely mitigate focus fire with death shroud? Not the community or the devs want to know, the latter are well aware of what would happen to the game if necro would gain a powered up version of DS.
Worst of all, you suggest to have a scaling death shroud. You want this mechanic to get stronger as the number of enemies increase……sorry bro, are you 100% certain about what you’re asking?
First of all, can you explain what you mean for focus fire?
There is no meta build in the game that survive a huge amount of time when heavily focused by more than 1 playerWhat you’re really talking about is dmg avoidance that some professions possess( ele, warrior, thief, guardian, engi), they’re able to quickly move out of combat to lose focus; here I can say " yes necro do lack in the dmg avoidance department".
The necro is more than fine in the in-combat survivability department, for a class that does not need healing power or high toughness, the necro does more than fine in mitigating dmg. What necro needs need are ways to get of trouble when things get hot and I fully agree about this.
Your suggestion: a scaling DS, would transform the necro in a super bunker, something that can absorb dmg incoming from multiple sources…that would be silly, sorry to say that.
And this is where you prove you don’t know what you are talking about.
At no point has Bhawb ever suggested that Death Shroud scale with number of enemies. You literally attack an idea that nobody suggested. Kinda shoots your credibility in the foot. And the other foot and opposite hand as well.
You’re clearly clutching at straws here.
Death Shroud, doesn’t scale. 20,000 life force can only absorb 20,000 damage, regardless of how many people are hitting me
In his post he does not directly suggest to have a scaling DS, this much I know already, he simply states the weaknesses of the mechanic and I’ve assumed that he was suggesting to buff DS.
I believe I have used the wrong tone and for that I apologise…but my point remains.
The DS mechanic is fine as it is, the necro is more than capable when we talk about dmg mitigation
(edited by Supreme.3164)
What would happen to this game if necros would gain the ability to hugely mitigate focus fire with death shroud? Not the community or the devs want to know, the latter are well aware of what would happen to the game if necro would gain a powered up version of DS.
We would finally have the access to the same thing that everyone else can do. Yeah, it’d be insanely broken if Necromancer was suddenly balanced.
Worst of all, you suggest to have a scaling death shroud. You want this mechanic to get stronger as the number of enemies increase……sorry bro, are you 100% certain about what you’re asking?
I’m asking for defense that does not lose effectiveness against multiple enemies. An invulnerability doesn’t break after kittens or 10,000 damage, it invalidates all attacks against you for the duration of the invulnerability. This is true of dodges, blocks, invulns, evades, but nothing that Necromancer has.
First of all, can you explain what you mean for focus fire?
There is no meta build in the game that survive a huge amount of time when heavily focused by more than 1 playerNecromancer is the only profession that cannot negate damage beyond our first two dodges. Evades, blocks, vigor, none of it. We just sit there taking the damage, and pray that we have enough HP to passively tank it. This is bad design.
What you’re really talking about is dmg avoidance that some professions possess( ele, warrior, thief, guardian, engi), they’re able to quickly move out of combat to lose focus; here I can say " yes necro do lack in the dmg avoidance department".
The necro is more than fine in the in-combat survivability department, for a class that does not need healing power or high toughness, the necro does more than fine in mitigating dmg. What necro needs need are ways to get of trouble when things get hot and I fully agree about this.
I’m asking for a block, evade, faster blinds, aegis, invuln, to be accessible via traits or skills so that we are on an equal defensive footing. I specifically do not want the ability to leave a fight, that isn’t what we are designed to do. I want (balanced versions) of things like Renewed Focus, the various warrior stances, mist form, blurred frenzy, etc.
I agree that in small fights (1v1, 2v2) Necromancer has good mitigation, even great mitigation if they build for it (other issues afflict those builds but that is an aside to our defense). It is only when CC and offensive pressure overwhelms our extremely limited dodges or kiting and removes our ability to actually apply our mitigating conditions and gain LF that we see an issue. Things like blocks, invulns, and stability (in balanced durations and accessibility, giving up a fair amount of offense or utility to gain them) would help a ton here.
Your suggestion: a scaling DS, would transform the necro in a super bunker, something that can absorb dmg incoming from multiple sources…that would be silly, sorry to say that.
I’m not asking for DS to simply gain 20% LF per nearby enemy, I’m just pointing out that it is the only defense we really have, and we are the only profession whose primary defense gets worse and worse the more enemies there are. In essence I’m asking for some defense that actually works the same in 1v1s and 5v5s, which is something that Deathshroud currently does not do at all.
how do engi,thief,ranger,ranger,mesmer defenses get better the more enemies that focus you? anyone that gets focused by 3+ players will most likely die specially against a coordinated team with lot of cc
but hey i wouldnt mind necro having more survive if they lost their 8k+ damage autos
8k auto attacks? Just shhh.
The point about defense and numbers wasn’t that those classes gain effectiveness the more enemies are attacking it’s that necromancer loses effectivness.
Let me make this very easy, let’s use Mesmer as the example. So for this example let’s assume 100 players are going to gank one player but they are only allowed 2 seconds to do it K? First up the Necromancer. 100 players attack necromancer he goes into DS and melts instantly. 100 players attack mesmer mesmer hits f4 at the same time. THE MESMER LIVES!!!
comprende?
Attention Moderators I am not
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA
how do engi,thief,ranger,ranger,mesmer defenses get better the more enemies that focus you? anyone that gets focused by 3+ players will most likely die specially against a coordinated team with lot of cc
but hey i wouldnt mind necro having more survive if they lost their 8k+ damage autos
If a thief is in an evade frame, they can be hit by 1 or 1000000000000000000 damage, and they will take none; this is true of blocks, invulns, etc.. This means their defense effectively mitigates more damage when more people are attacking them. Necromancers do not have this, and this becomes very relevant in teamfights where our 10,000 LF that is balanced for 1v1s is still 10,000 LF even when 5 people are attacking. We don’t actually gain more LF from being in a situation with more damage, whereas other professions’ defenses ignore how many people are hitting them.
Note that I am not asking DS’s LF to specifically scale, but that we gain access to other things. And yes, we wouldn’t necessarily deal high damage LBs (8k is not going to happen in PvP), because we’d have to drop the 50% crit trait for a defensive trait, or terror necro would have to go 6 into DM to get their defensive trait, meaning they’d have to give up Master of Terror or Path of Corruption, or Necros couldn’t take a second well or CB because they’d have an invuln. The point is having options.
In his post he does not directly suggest to have a scaling DS, this much I know already, he simply states the weaknesses of the mechanic and I’ve assumed that he was suggesting to buff DS.
I believe I have used the wrong tone and for that I apologise…but my point remains.
The DS mechanic is fine as it is, the necro is more than capable when we talk about dmg mitigation
No, he never suggests such a thing. Stating a fact does not insinuate a suggestion.
I do agree that Death Shroud is almost fine (still need some healing through it) as a defensive mechanic. However, it is not, and never will be good enough to function in lieu of blocks/evades/invulnerabilities. Not without a complete overhaul to how it works.
I don’t want Necros to be able to escape from fights that they can’t already leave. They are practitioners of Aggression magic, after all. What they need though, is staying power.
What would happen to this game if necros would gain the ability to hugely mitigate focus fire with death shroud? Not the community or the devs want to know, the latter are well aware of what would happen to the game if necro would gain a powered up version of DS.
We would finally have the access to the same thing that everyone else can do. Yeah, it’d be insanely broken if Necromancer was suddenly balanced.
Worst of all, you suggest to have a scaling death shroud. You want this mechanic to get stronger as the number of enemies increase……sorry bro, are you 100% certain about what you’re asking?
I’m asking for defense that does not lose effectiveness against multiple enemies. An invulnerability doesn’t break after kittens or 10,000 damage, it invalidates all attacks against you for the duration of the invulnerability. This is true of dodges, blocks, invulns, evades, but nothing that Necromancer has.
First of all, can you explain what you mean for focus fire?
There is no meta build in the game that survive a huge amount of time when heavily focused by more than 1 playerNecromancer is the only profession that cannot negate damage beyond our first two dodges. Evades, blocks, vigor, none of it. We just sit there taking the damage, and pray that we have enough HP to passively tank it. This is bad design.
What you’re really talking about is dmg avoidance that some professions possess( ele, warrior, thief, guardian, engi), they’re able to quickly move out of combat to lose focus; here I can say " yes necro do lack in the dmg avoidance department".
The necro is more than fine in the in-combat survivability department, for a class that does not need healing power or high toughness, the necro does more than fine in mitigating dmg. What necro needs need are ways to get of trouble when things get hot and I fully agree about this.
I’m asking for a block, evade, faster blinds, aegis, invuln, to be accessible via traits or skills so that we are on an equal defensive footing. I specifically do not want the ability to leave a fight, that isn’t what we are designed to do. I want (balanced versions) of things like Renewed Focus, the various warrior stances, mist form, blurred frenzy, etc.
I agree that in small fights (1v1, 2v2) Necromancer has good mitigation, even great mitigation if they build for it (other issues afflict those builds but that is an aside to our defense). It is only when CC and offensive pressure overwhelms our extremely limited dodges or kiting and removes our ability to actually apply our mitigating conditions and gain LF that we see an issue. Things like blocks, invulns, and stability (in balanced durations and accessibility, giving up a fair amount of offense or utility to gain them) would help a ton here.
Your suggestion: a scaling DS, would transform the necro in a super bunker, something that can absorb dmg incoming from multiple sources…that would be silly, sorry to say that.
I’m not asking for DS to simply gain 20% LF per nearby enemy, I’m just pointing out that it is the only defense we really have, and we are the only profession whose primary defense gets worse and worse the more enemies there are. In essence I’m asking for some defense that actually works the same in 1v1s and 5v5s, which is something that Deathshroud currently does not do at all.
I understand your point and where you’re coming from.
Again I repeat that I’m in favour of giving sustain buffs to necro and Mesmer, but what should not be buffed are the shatter and terrormancer.
Those two builds are like normal artillery..but give them a little more “fire power” and from artillery batteries they’ll become nuclear warheads batteries
So let’s buff the professions, but let’s make sure that the artillery remains as it is.
Its not about buffing or not buffing certain builds, it is about introducing reasonable trade off. If, for example, they introduced a strong defensive trait into Soul Reaping GM slot, zerker necro would have to choose it over 50% crit chance in DS, and Terror would have to drop either Path of Corruption or that one passive fear I’m too lazy to look up. That is good, that is how balance should work, trading offensive, defense, and utility equally, to get more of one requires less of the others.
1) No one is arguing with the fact that necromancers and mesmers need viable builds (at high-end organized pvp) other than terrorcondi and shatter.
2) EVEN if you give mesmers and necromancers a “d/d ele like bruiser build”, you only solve half the problem. Why? Because everyone can agree that we want more build diversity in the game. A game where every team runs 3 cele + thief + another cele/medi guard is boring as heck. You want viable team compositions that incorporate DPS builds as well.
3) It is a FACT that necromancers, mesmers and rangers are grossly under-represented and out-competed by thieves for the dps role in organized high-end pvp. This is despite the apparent “great damage” of shatter mesmers and condition necromancers that you so laud. Ask yourself: If these builds are so great, why do more teams not run them?
4) The answer to 3 is simple: There are grave problems with these specs that turn teams off from running them, despite the damage output of these specs. Necromancers have huge survivability issues. Shatter mesmers are inferior to the thief in filling the roamer role, and become almost a liability to the team if the other side has a good thief. To put it more clearly: for ANY spec to be viable, it has to cross a minimum threshold of survivability. Necromancers as a class do not cross that threshold. Mesmers do not cross that threshold if the other team has a thief.
5) So, what mesmer and necromancer players are asking for is not to give shatter mesmers and terrormancers D/D ele like survivability. It is to solve the inherent problems that these specs (and classes) face, allowing them to cross that minimum threshold of survivability that would make them viable.
Your proposal of NOT solving the issues that shatter mesmers/terrormancers/rangers face would effectively crystallize the status quo where only thieves and (recently) medi guards can fill the DPS role. Everyone else must go cele or get wrecked. Is this the kind of meta that you enjoy? Giving mesmers and necromancer basic survivability does not make them “overpowered” if you do it right – it merely makes these classes competitive for a role on organized team, which they are currently ostracized from.
The hoped- for end result of these changes is to broaden the meta, allowing DPS builds other than thieves and medi guards to be viable at high-end organized play. The meta can be broadened even further by giving necromancer, rangers and mesmers, thieves etc. new builds that allow them to fulfill a role other than their current ones, which you seem to support.
1) No one is arguing with the fact that necromancers and mesmers need viable builds (at high-end organized pvp) other than terrorcondi and shatter.
2) EVEN if you give mesmers and necromancers a “d/d ele like bruiser build”, you only solve half the problem. Why? Because everyone can agree that we want more build diversity in the game. A game where every team runs 3 cele + thief + another cele/medi guard is boring as heck. You want viable team compositions that incorporate DPS builds as well.
3) It is a FACT that necromancers, mesmers and rangers are grossly under-represented and out-competed by thieves for the dps role in organized high-end pvp. This is despite the apparent “great damage” of shatter mesmers and condition necromancers that you so laud. Ask yourself: If these builds are so great, why do more teams not run them?
4) The answer to 3 is simple: There are grave problems with these specs that turn teams off from running them, despite the damage output of these specs. Necromancers have huge survivability issues. Shatter mesmers are inferior to the thief in filling the roamer role, and become almost a liability to the team if the other side has a good thief. To put it more clearly: for ANY spec to be viable, it has to cross a minimum threshold of survivability. Necromancers as a class do not cross that threshold. Mesmers do not cross that threshold if the other team has a thief.
5) So, what mesmer and necromancer players are asking for is not to give shatter mesmers and terrormancers D/D ele like survivability. It is to solve the inherent problems that these specs (and classes) face, allowing them to cross that minimum threshold of survivability that would make them viable.
Your proposal of NOT solving the issues that shatter mesmers/terrormancers/rangers face would effectively crystallize the status quo where only thieves and (recently) medi guards can fill the DPS role. Everyone else must go cele or get wrecked. Is this the kind of meta that you enjoy? Giving mesmers and necromancer basic survivability does not make them “overpowered” if you do it right – it merely makes these classes competitive for a role on organized team, which they are currently ostracized from.
The hoped- for end result of these changes is to broaden the meta, allowing DPS builds other than thieves and medi guards to be viable at high-end organized play. The meta can be broadened even further by giving necromancer, rangers and mesmers, thieves etc. new builds that allow them to fulfill a role other than their current ones, which you seem to support.
This So much this.
1) No one is arguing with the fact that necromancers and mesmers need viable builds (at high-end organized pvp) other than terrorcondi and shatter.
2) EVEN if you give mesmers and necromancers a “d/d ele like bruiser build”, you only solve half the problem. Why? Because everyone can agree that we want more build diversity in the game. A game where every team runs 3 cele + thief + another cele/medi guard is boring as heck. You want viable team compositions that incorporate DPS builds as well.
3) It is a FACT that necromancers, mesmers and rangers are grossly under-represented and out-competed by thieves for the dps role in organized high-end pvp. This is despite the apparent “great damage” of shatter mesmers and condition necromancers that you so laud. Ask yourself: If these builds are so great, why do more teams not run them?
4) The answer to 3 is simple: There are grave problems with these specs that turn teams off from running them, despite the damage output of these specs. Necromancers have huge survivability issues. Shatter mesmers are inferior to the thief in filling the roamer role, and become almost a liability to the team if the other side has a good thief. To put it more clearly: for ANY spec to be viable, it has to cross a minimum threshold of survivability. Necromancers as a class do not cross that threshold. Mesmers do not cross that threshold if the other team has a thief.
5) So, what mesmer and necromancer players are asking for is not to give shatter mesmers and terrormancers D/D ele like survivability. It is to solve the inherent problems that these specs (and classes) face, allowing them to cross that minimum threshold of survivability that would make them viable.
Your proposal of NOT solving the issues that shatter mesmers/terrormancers/rangers face would effectively crystallize the status quo where only thieves and (recently) medi guards can fill the DPS role. Everyone else must go cele or get wrecked. Is this the kind of meta that you enjoy? Giving mesmers and necromancer basic survivability does not make them “overpowered” if you do it right – it merely makes these classes competitive for a role on organized team, which they are currently ostracized from.
The hoped- for end result of these changes is to broaden the meta, allowing DPS builds other than thieves and medi guards to be viable at high-end organized play. The meta can be broadened even further by giving necromancer, rangers and mesmers, thieves etc. new builds that allow them to fulfill a role other than their current ones, which you seem to support.
1. Necro has another viable build which is power. If you really want to play around builds and say that dd ele has another viable build that bascially no one else runs in pvp, then necro does, too. Same with engi, guardian and ranger. All these classes have some sort of viable builds that are not used in pvp because at this current state, other specs are better.
2. Again, you want more diversity? Heck, I want fresh air to be viable, too. Also, two dps specs in one team is not enough for you? How much would you want? 3? 4? I’m gonna say this once again: I do believe dps meta is not viable in conquest mode. You can see it when you queue solo and your team is squishy, you have much harder time keeping nodes.
3. Again, you forget all other classes. How about fresh air eles, SD engis, gs warriors and power rangers? Why can’t those have competitive dps specs in high tier pvp?
4. See 3.
5. I agree necro could use some more survability, I don’t think they should get invulnerable skills, but I would agree with some vigor. On the other hand, I don’t think mesmers need more damage negating skills. Bluzzed frenzy 12 sec, ya know. But again, it’s with all dps specs that are not used in high tier for some reason.
I do get this thread is about necromancer and mesmer but honestly if you only want to pick two classes and fix them instead of looking at it as a whole, it doesn’t solve the issue either. Yes, there will be always specs that are in meta. Yes, we need more diversity. No, it doesn’t only go for necromancer and mesmer.
(edited by Laraley.7695)
1. Necro has another viable build which is power. If you really want to play around builds and say that dd ele has another viable build that bascially no one else runs in pvp, then necro does, too. Same with engi, guardian and ranger. All these classes have some sort of viable builds that are not used in pvp because at this current state, other specs are better.
2. Again, you want more diversity? Heck, I want fresh air to be viable, too. Also, two dps specs in one team is not enough for you? How much would you want? 3? 4? I’m gonna say this once again: I do believe dps meta is not viable in conquest mode. You can see it when you queue solo and your team is squishy, you have much harder time keeping nodes.
3. Again, you forget all other classes. How about fresh air eles, SD engis, gs warriors and power rangers? Why can’t those have competitive dps specs in high tier pvp?
4. See 3.
5. I agree necro could use some more survability, I don’t think they should get invulnerable skills, but I would agree with some vigor. On the other hand, I don’t think mesmers need more damage negating skills. Bluzzed frenzy 12 sec, ya know. But again, it’s with all dps specs that are not used in high tier for some reason.
I do get this thread is about necromancer and mesmer but honestly if you only want to pick two classes and fix them instead of looking at it as a whole. Yes, there will be always specs that are in meta. Yes, we need more diversity. No, it doesn’t only go for necromancer and mesmer.
We can argue all day over what the threshold for “viable” is. For me, a “viable” spec at high-end pvp is one that is actually used often by organized teams. Power-mancer, for instance, is not used often. Therefore, according to my definition, it is not viable. It could be for your definition.
Yes, I completely agree with you that we need more diversity, for classes other than necromancers and mesmers as well as those two classes. I think I said that in both of my posts in this thread. I focused on necros and mesmers because that is the main topic of this thread.
No, shatter mesmers indeed don’t need more survivability in general. They do need trait fixes, bug fixes and more survivability only in the case when there is a thief on the other team (i.e. shatter mesmers need something to not be a complete liability when there is a thief on the other team).
Long story short, we mostly agree 0..0 That’s rare for an online discussion.
No, shatter mesmers indeed don’t need more survivability in general. They do need trait fixes, bug fixes and more survivability only in the case when there is a thief on the other team (i.e. shatter mesmers need something to not be a complete liability when there is a thief on the other team).
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Fix power block to affect thieves (in some ways, rather than just complete invulnerability) would be a great start.
Allowing shatters to track better and not be mitigated when cast before a target uses stealth (like every other attack) or allowing phants to not be hard countered by a blind forcing players to have to blind the phantasm themselves. Would be among the few things that could be done that would not affect the base survivability or hurt the meta. Allowing a more even playing field against those matchups.
Another option as I stated before is having deceptive evasion moved as a master trait to the illusions tree, this gives more build options for shatter specs, a few that could make it still relevent and not be thief food.
@ the thief doing “high damage single target melee” shatters do cleave, along with grenades, medi guard burst, among other things… But it is the worst cleave. It might as well be single target with mediocre splash that happens to strip boons when traited. It might as well be considered single target for the most part.
As for the range comparison, yes mes can sustain more when left to free cast. But every medium class can do it better including thieves with the right spec (and often it doesn’t harm their close range dmg)
if you nerf stealth, evade spam, damage, no set up engagement, and mobility from a thief you pretty much get a shatter mesmer. 1200 lack luster pew pew, mediocre team utility on long cool downs, and boon strip is not a fair trade off.
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
(edited by Daishi.6027)
-snip
Giving Mesmer and Necro a bruiser build would solve only half of the problems, you’re right…to solve the other half of the problem we should give viable DPS builds to all profession and not only Mesmer, thief and guardian
But forget this for now and let’s focus on the rest of your post.
You state that you don’t want a shatter/terrormancer with the same level of sustain of a d/d and we can agree on that, I assume that like me you realize that a build mostly using using (over 70%) offensive traitlines should not reach the same level of defense of a d/d build that invest almost everything ( over 80%) in sustain traitlines.
Survivability issues should be expected when using a build like shatter or terrormancer and I don’t see why it should be any different.
It’s almost the same for DPS ele, warrior, ranger, engi; I say almost because the DPS role on this professions has never been viable in High End PvP since launch (a generalization, we had ofc few instances of dps war or ele, but really nothing to write a book about it)
My suggestions is to give a tanky mele range option to mesmers and necros because we cannot have a ranged burst option that doesn’t suffer in survivability, there must be a trade off for staying at range.
With the option now available , the player would be able to choose what role to play, if you want burst ok , go range , if you want to survive more ok, go mele range and use a suitable build that like : d/d ele, cele engi, shout warrior , invest almost everything in self sustain.
Why a shatter Mesmer should survive way more than a fresh air ele or GS warrior when under heavy focus fire? If you like to play DPS role then be ready to accept the risks that come with it.
In the end it’s really :" go cele/tanky amulet or get wrecked" and this goes not only for mesmers and necro….but for everybody else also.
I would like to have a 20/30 fire +20 air ele with nothing in water that does not get insta-killed during teamfights, can I have it?
I see people crying all the times about ele survivability like this is given for free
All the sustain that eles have comes from traits, why it should be any different for Mesmer or necro….I dunno really
(edited by Supreme.3164)
I don’t think you quite get the nuance of my posts.
With the option now available , the player would be able to choose what role to play, if you want burst ok , go range
The issue here is that there is no real choice in the current meta if we are talking about organized teams in high-end pvp. The DPS role right now cannot be filled by a shatter mesmer, or a terrormancer, or a S/F ele, or whatever other than a thief, medi guard or cele engi because other classes do not cross the minimum threshold of viability. In order to provide a real choice, you need to increase the survivability of the DPS classes until they cross a minimum threshold. The closest thing we have to a real choice of roles in the current meta is the guardian – if I want to go support, I go bunker. If I want to go DPS, I go hammer medi. But even in this case, there is no compelling reason to run a bunker because bunker guards are outclassed by cele.
Survivability issues should be expected when using a build like shatter or terrormancer and I don’t see why it should be any different.
No one is saying that there shouldn’t be any risk that comes with playing range, or playing DPS, compared with tanky/ bruiser classes. People are saying that the risk-reward ratio is way too skewed for dps classes, such that there is no real incentive to run these these classes in organized pvp. * Players accept that there should be greater risk associated with having higher damage* – it’s just that the risk level for the current amount of damage output is too high, making teams go for safer options, lke cele engineers almost all the time.
Why a shatter Mesmer should survive way more than a fresh air ele or GS warrior when under heavy focus fire? If you like to play DPS role then be ready to accept the risks that come with it.
In the end it’s really :" go cele/tanky amulet or get wrecked" and this goes not only for mesmers and necro….but for everybody else also.
For the fourth time in this thread: I completely support giving other classes other than mesmers and necros viable dps roles as well. S/F eles also suffer from getting popped like a pimple : i.e. they do not cross the minimum threshold of survivability to be viable. Give them more survivability to be viable, or give eles in general another spec option that can fill the DPS role, maybe a D/F ele or something else.
I would like to have a 20/30 fire +20 air ele with nothing in water that does not get insta-killed during teamfights, can I have it?
Again, you are thinking in extremes. No one is asking for yolo specs to be viable. What they are asking for are specs that deal more damage than bruisers and have a commensurate level of risk that comes with that build – but the risk shouldn’t be so high that those DPS builds are not viable in organized play at all.
-snip
Giving Mesmer and Necro a bruiser build would solve only half of the problems, you’re right…to solve the other half of the problem we should give viable DPS builds to all profession and not only Mesmer, thief and guardian
But forget this for now and let’s focus on the rest of your post.
You state that you don’t want a shatter/terrormancer with the same level of sustain of a d/d and we can agree on that, I assume that like me you realize that a build mostly using using (over 70%) offensive traitlines should not reach the same level of defense of a d/d build that invest almost everything ( over 80%) in sustain traitlines.
Survivability issues should be expected when using a build like shatter or terrormancer and I don’t see why it should be any different.
It’s almost the same for DPS ele, warrior, ranger, engi; I say almost because the DPS role on this professions has never been viable in High End PvP since launch (a generalization, we had ofc few instances of dps war or ele, but really nothing to write a book about it)
My suggestions is to give a tanky mele range option to mesmers and necros because we cannot have a ranged burst option that doesn’t suffer in survivability, there must be a trade off for staying at range.
With the option now available , the player would be able to choose what role to play, if you want burst ok , go range , if you want to survive more ok, go mele range and use a suitable build that like : d/d ele, cele engi, shout warrior , invest almost everything in self sustain.
Why a shatter Mesmer should survive way more than a fresh air ele or GS warrior when under heavy focus fire? If you like to play DPS role then be ready to accept the risks that come with it.
In the end it’s really :" go cele/tanky amulet or get wrecked" and this goes not only for mesmers and necro….but for everybody else also.
I would like to have a 20/30 fire +20 air ele with nothing in water that does not get insta-killed during teamfights, can I have it?
I see people crying all the times about ele survivability like this is given for free
All the sustain that eles have comes from traits, why it should be any different for Mesmer or necro….I dunno really
But what would that tanky melee option actually DO compared to what a tanky minion master with dagger currently does not? Minion masters are not viable because other than being tanky, they do not have much to offer to your party. Giving them more things like healing and support would of course improve that … by creating yet another analogue of a d/d cele elementalist. I for one do not find that prospect very desirable.
My criticism to a large extent concerns the current meta rather than your suggestions. With the state of the cele amulet, there are now in essence only two roles left: zerker burst and cele support/condi/damage hybrid. Mesmer actually does fit into the first of these two roles well and would be very much fine with some slight buffs (in particular in the matchup against a thief). It does after all bring something very useful to the table: lots of boon stripping. Necros however have a much bigger problem: they are completely unviable as a cele and OKish on zerker, but inferior there to either mesmer, thief or mediguard and also contribute quite little beyond raw damage. This I think can only be addressed by a major overhaul of the class. I hope that this overhaul will consist of more than trying to push necros into the cele role.
I don’t think you quite get the nuance of my posts.
With the option now available , the player would be able to choose what role to play, if you want burst ok , go range
The issue here is that there is no real choice in the current meta if we are talking about organized teams in high-end pvp. The DPS role right now cannot be filled by a shatter mesmer, or a terrormancer, or a S/F ele, or whatever other than a thief, medi guard or cele engi because other classes do not cross the minimum threshold of viability. In order to provide a real choice, you need to increase the survivability of the DPS classes until they cross a minimum threshold. The closest thing we have to a real choice of roles in the current meta is the guardian – if I want to go support, I go bunker. If I want to go DPS, I go hammer medi. But even in this case, there is no compelling reason to run a bunker because bunker guards are outclassed by cele.
Survivability issues should be expected when using a build like shatter or terrormancer and I don’t see why it should be any different.
No one is saying that there shouldn’t be any risk that comes with playing range, or playing DPS, compared with tanky/ bruiser classes. People are saying that the risk-reward ratio is way too skewed for dps classes, such that there is no real incentive to run these these classes in organized pvp. * Players accept that there should be greater risk associated with having higher damage* – it’s just that the risk level for the current amount of damage output is too high, making teams go for safer options, lke cele engineers almost all the time.
Why a shatter Mesmer should survive way more than a fresh air ele or GS warrior when under heavy focus fire? If you like to play DPS role then be ready to accept the risks that come with it.
In the end it’s really :" go cele/tanky amulet or get wrecked" and this goes not only for mesmers and necro….but for everybody else also.
For the fourth time in this thread: I completely support giving other classes other than mesmers and necros viable dps roles as well. S/F eles also suffer from getting popped like a pimple : i.e. they do not cross the minimum threshold of survivability to be viable. Give them more survivability to be viable, or give eles in general another spec option that can fill the DPS role, maybe a D/F ele or something else.
I would like to have a 20/30 fire +20 air ele with nothing in water that does not get insta-killed during teamfights, can I have it?
Again, you are thinking in extremes. No one is asking for yolo specs to be viable. What they are asking for are specs that deal more damage than bruisers and have a commensurate level of risk that comes with that build – but the risk shouldn’t be so high that those DPS builds are not viable in organized play at all.
Basically reduce the risk/reward ratio of the DPS Mesmer build to a level where the class can be considered a viable alternative to med guardian and thief alone.
I was suggesting to give mesmers a valid tanky option, but it seems the idea has not been well received, fair enough.
It seems that mesmers would be happy with having a “stronger” shatter build, something that can compete with med guardian and thief for the dps spot, but let’s not forget that DPS builds do still lose their matchup against bruiser builds, the price they pay for having far greater dmg.
In the end The majority of the Mesmer community is only asking for a competitive version of the current shatter build, something in the same league of med guardians and thieves, this is what I would call a “minimum threshold of survivability”
Ofc there are Mesmer players who would like a DPS build with enough survivability to withstand a bruiser build and this thread really…was meant for them
-snip
Giving Mesmer and Necro a bruiser build would solve only half of the problems, you’re right…to solve the other half of the problem we should give viable DPS builds to all profession and not only Mesmer, thief and guardian
But forget this for now and let’s focus on the rest of your post.
You state that you don’t want a shatter/terrormancer with the same level of sustain of a d/d and we can agree on that, I assume that like me you realize that a build mostly using using (over 70%) offensive traitlines should not reach the same level of defense of a d/d build that invest almost everything ( over 80%) in sustain traitlines.
Survivability issues should be expected when using a build like shatter or terrormancer and I don’t see why it should be any different.
It’s almost the same for DPS ele, warrior, ranger, engi; I say almost because the DPS role on this professions has never been viable in High End PvP since launch (a generalization, we had ofc few instances of dps war or ele, but really nothing to write a book about it)
My suggestions is to give a tanky mele range option to mesmers and necros because we cannot have a ranged burst option that doesn’t suffer in survivability, there must be a trade off for staying at range.
With the option now available , the player would be able to choose what role to play, if you want burst ok , go range , if you want to survive more ok, go mele range and use a suitable build that like : d/d ele, cele engi, shout warrior , invest almost everything in self sustain.
Why a shatter Mesmer should survive way more than a fresh air ele or GS warrior when under heavy focus fire? If you like to play DPS role then be ready to accept the risks that come with it.
In the end it’s really :" go cele/tanky amulet or get wrecked" and this goes not only for mesmers and necro….but for everybody else also.
I would like to have a 20/30 fire +20 air ele with nothing in water that does not get insta-killed during teamfights, can I have it?
I see people crying all the times about ele survivability like this is given for free
All the sustain that eles have comes from traits, why it should be any different for Mesmer or necro….I dunno reallyBut what would that tanky melee option actually DO compared to what a tanky minion master with dagger currently does not? Minion masters are not viable because other than being tanky, they do not have much to offer to your party. Giving them more things like healing and support would of course improve that … by creating yet another analogue of a d/d cele elementalist. I for one do not find that prospect very desirable.
My criticism to a large extent concerns the current meta rather than your suggestions. With the state of the cele amulet, there are now in essence only two roles left: zerker burst and cele support/condi/damage hybrid. Mesmer actually does fit into the first of these two roles well and would be very much fine with some slight buffs (in particular in the matchup against a thief). It does after all bring something very useful to the table: lots of boon stripping. Necros however have a much bigger problem: they are completely unviable as a cele and OKish on zerker, but inferior there to either mesmer, thief or mediguard and also contribute quite little beyond raw damage. This I think can only be addressed by a major overhaul of the class. I hope that this overhaul will consist of more than trying to push necros into the cele role.
The roles will always be the same regardless of the meta : DPS-Bunker-Support.
My suggestion was not to give a copy/paste version of d/d to necros, but rather to give them a viable tanky option:
-A mele PBAoE de-buffer with DS short CD teleport or burst heals
-A mele single target life siphoning duellist
Many options I believe, options that can be something completely different from D/D ele, something that would create a different kind of team composition
In GW1 you could have a necro debuffer( Hexway), a necro corrupter( bala team), a burst necro( dark path) and at the same time you could have an ele de-buffer ( with disabling condis ), ele corrupter( water based Hexes) or ele burst( Invoke the lightning, searing flames, etc etc).
I was suggesting to have something similar in Gw2 that’s all really, I have hopes that one day this game reach the same level of build diversity of its predecessor..
-snip
Giving Mesmer and Necro a bruiser build would solve only half of the problems, you’re right…to solve the other half of the problem we should give viable DPS builds to all profession and not only Mesmer, thief and guardian
But forget this for now and let’s focus on the rest of your post.
You state that you don’t want a shatter/terrormancer with the same level of sustain of a d/d and we can agree on that, I assume that like me you realize that a build mostly using using (over 70%) offensive traitlines should not reach the same level of defense of a d/d build that invest almost everything ( over 80%) in sustain traitlines.
Survivability issues should be expected when using a build like shatter or terrormancer and I don’t see why it should be any different.
It’s almost the same for DPS ele, warrior, ranger, engi; I say almost because the DPS role on this professions has never been viable in High End PvP since launch (a generalization, we had ofc few instances of dps war or ele, but really nothing to write a book about it)
My suggestions is to give a tanky mele range option to mesmers and necros because we cannot have a ranged burst option that doesn’t suffer in survivability, there must be a trade off for staying at range.
With the option now available , the player would be able to choose what role to play, if you want burst ok , go range , if you want to survive more ok, go mele range and use a suitable build that like : d/d ele, cele engi, shout warrior , invest almost everything in self sustain.
Why a shatter Mesmer should survive way more than a fresh air ele or GS warrior when under heavy focus fire? If you like to play DPS role then be ready to accept the risks that come with it.
In the end it’s really :" go cele/tanky amulet or get wrecked" and this goes not only for mesmers and necro….but for everybody else also.
I would like to have a 20/30 fire +20 air ele with nothing in water that does not get insta-killed during teamfights, can I have it?
I see people crying all the times about ele survivability like this is given for free
All the sustain that eles have comes from traits, why it should be any different for Mesmer or necro….I dunno reallyBut what would that tanky melee option actually DO compared to what a tanky minion master with dagger currently does not? Minion masters are not viable because other than being tanky, they do not have much to offer to your party. Giving them more things like healing and support would of course improve that … by creating yet another analogue of a d/d cele elementalist. I for one do not find that prospect very desirable.
My criticism to a large extent concerns the current meta rather than your suggestions. With the state of the cele amulet, there are now in essence only two roles left: zerker burst and cele support/condi/damage hybrid. Mesmer actually does fit into the first of these two roles well and would be very much fine with some slight buffs (in particular in the matchup against a thief). It does after all bring something very useful to the table: lots of boon stripping. Necros however have a much bigger problem: they are completely unviable as a cele and OKish on zerker, but inferior there to either mesmer, thief or mediguard and also contribute quite little beyond raw damage. This I think can only be addressed by a major overhaul of the class. I hope that this overhaul will consist of more than trying to push necros into the cele role.
The roles will always be the same regardless of the meta : DPS-Bunker-Support.
My suggestion was not to give a copy/paste version of d/d to necros, but rather to give them a viable tanky option:
-A mele PBAoE de-buffer with DS short CD teleport or burst heals
-A mele single target life siphoning duellistMany options I believe, options that can be something completely different from D/D ele, something that would create a different kind of team composition
In GW1 you could have a necro debuffer( Hexway), a necro corrupter( bala team), a burst necro( dark path) and at the same time you could have an ele de-buffer ( with disabling condis ), ele corrupter( water based Hexes) or ele burst( Invoke the lightning, searing flames, etc etc).
I was suggesting to have something similar in Gw2 that’s all really, I have hopes that one day this game reach the same level of build diversity of its predecessor..
Yes but in GW2 the deciding factor of your role is your amulet. If it is supposed to be viable for cele then it will play very much like cele engi, cele ele or cele shoutbow, which I believe all offer similar gameplay (namely quite spammy and very survivable). I am not seeing how this would promote build diversity.
While I dont doubt that there are people out there wanting specific buffs to already really powerful builds, the necro community in general is pretty aware of the situation. Most of us can agree that some things necro does very well while there are other things that are lacking. I think we can mostly agree that we want some balance and QoL changes.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
Most necro mains who post about this stuff remember the Dhuumfire buffs and the reverberations that had on the class. Becoming OP lead to nerfs to amazing skills like putrid Mark and corrupt boon, as well as Mark of blood and grasping dead.
Being OP lead to destruction of the spec to a shadow of what it was. The community as a whole doesn’t want that again, just improved effectiveness.
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