Guild Wars 2

And it’s because of 2 simple words; Meta builds

Now I know some of you are thinking what’s the problem? Every game with PvP and a build system etc has a ‘meta’.

Which is all fine and good, I understand that certain builds will naturally be better than others it’s the nature of balance, it will never be perfect.

But what does annoy me, is that sub-optimal builds aren’t just a little bad, they are flat out terrible in SPvP compared to their ‘meta’ counterparts.

I’ll just cut this short, I personally believe the meta builds are too good compared to other builds classes have available, now I’m not saying boo hoo I can’t play my insert random made up on the spot build and I want to own! No, I’m saying that the difference between an average build compared to a meta one seems to be so vast it frustrates me.

I have, like many people taken an average non meta build into PvP to only lose to an inferior skilled player who happened to be on a meta build, yes skill factors into winning a duel quite largely, but when I get bursted and lose by auto attacks because of silly might stacking runes and air/fire sigil it gets old after a while.

I guess you can call this a I want more build diversity in the sense of not more builds being added, but more builds that can actually compete.

I think your cognitive dissonance comes from the fact that Meta means Optimal, and your build isn’t meta, i.e; Sub-optimal.

There’s a very good reason why bad builds aren’t “meta” it’s because they’re bad.

Build diversity would be cool, but most classes are forced into traits high in their trees, Mesmer is forced into iPersona/Deceptive evasion..
Warrior is forced into Cleansing ire..
etc etc..

Moving those traits down would create a quagmire in balance like never before seen.

Play warrior and go x/x/20/x/15 and use any weapon set you want with whatever runes you want and a zerker valk soldier or celestial ammy and have fun.

My personal fav atm is s/s lb 0 30 20 0 20 with str runes and celestial ammy, solid condi damage with poison torment burning and bleed, and you keep up a solid 70% crit chance with swords and can maintain 20 might stacks np.

You can also drop air for energy but I like the damage.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdUGaVIehwJagkgC5HkBnDgKY4VuFlOA-TpBFwAOOEAl2fQxRAIxDAAaZAAnAAA

Really fun nonmeta build

my problem with spvp is people trying to be the solo hero or running dueling builds instead of conquest builds, If there was different game modes I’d say we would see a lot more build diversity.

Darnis.4056:

I think your cognitive dissonance comes from the fact that Meta means Optimal

Except it doesn’t (also, OP is not experiencing cognitive dissonance. Don’t throw around big words if you don’t know what they mean). The meta-game is the game that has developed around the fundamental PvP framework. In this case, the kind of builds and play styles we see. The meta isn’t necessarily about what is optimal – you will find many good players telling you that the current meta builds are not good or the best builds (especially for tpvp versus hotjoin), but what they are are ubiquitous, and of course what they generally reflect are playstyles that are easy to pick up and succeed with (or abuse).

The problem for anet, and to address OP’s point directly, is that the meta is not generally forseeable. They go about their business amending skill and profession behaviour to try and achieve some kind of balance and then the community find ways of manipulating what they release to create builds that emphasise particular skills or playstyles, and the best (or worst) quickly emerge and then spread virally.

Most people will take the path of least resistance in any scenario, and if you are a casual pvper and profession-agnostic, then why would you not jump on the meta build de jour when you look to try a profession out or go for some casual pvp? I think anet can only do so much – if you have a system of sufficient complexity, the vast majority will not bother to explore its depths when they just want to do some hotjoin for an hour. Hence the thousand threads on the forum “Can anyone give me the current [profession] meta build?” “What’s the best TPvP build?” etc. etc.

The other problem is that players tend to experience the results of these builds in quite binary fashion – “wow x build is OP I can’t do anything” or “lol i faceroll x build L2P” so working out if something really needs to be adjusted or not is quite a challenge.

Since GW2 launched we’ve seen the meta shift endlessly, and the perceived pub-stomping flavour-of-the-month builds have always been there. I don’t know if it’s inevitable, but I know the community will always seek them and spread them.

What really kittenes me off personaly is that as a engi/ele main I can make a thief or warrior and feel extremly powerfull in PvP without doing much. It feels so cheap and one sided that some professions can archive the same result with half or even less work.

All professions can build for dps, tank, healer, survival, roaming, point holder, decap, etc. (whether they are efficient at it is a different issue)

Having different game modes would only shift the problem slightly.
The truth is that some professions while excelling at something are also better than others in many ways and are more flexible, leaving weaker classes to struggle. Also, those professions seems to be more user friendly and require less effort to achieve what others have to fight hard to obtain.

In other words yes, more game modes would be welcome for they would promote more builds diversity. However they wouldn’t solve balance issues, which is the main concern for a pvp-centric game such as gw2 is

@KinggHidra, non-pvp player and Master of Semantics.

Cognitive dissonance is the excessive mental stress and discomfort experienced by an individual who (1) holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time or (2) is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.

1. I understand that certain builds will naturally be better than others
Sub-optimal builds aren’t just a little bad, they are flat out terrible in SPvP

2. I have, like many people taken an average non meta build into PvP to only lose to an inferior skilled player who happened to be on a meta build.

Op Understands that Meta builds are better, but feels he deserves to win anyway.
i.e Holds two conflicting Ideas.

Meta=Optimal

I didn’t mean that the word were synonyms dictionary wise, that would be asinine but thanks for Pointing that out it was really relevant to the conversation.

I meant that the evolution of builds will lead them to an apex at which they will become the Optimal build, and are prelevant Because They are Optimal.

Also, because arenanet Loves hard counters, and doesnt balance this game for 1v1.
Yes most 1v1 matchups are binary.
Engi v Necro, s/d Thf v Mes Rng Vs War

(Unless you’re looking at the extremes of a graph, OH LOOK SUPER KITTEN THIEF#8 LOST TO PINK PUMA, THIEVES ARE BALANCED)

…Problem with S/d is Fire/air Sigils btw..

trooper.2650:

All professions can build for dps, tank, healer, survival, roaming, point holder, decap, etc. (whether they are efficient at it is a different issue)

Having different game modes would only shift the problem slightly.
The truth is that some professions while excelling at something are also better than others in many ways and are more flexible, leaving weaker classes to struggle. Also, those professions seems to be more user friendly and require less effort to achieve what others have to fight hard to obtain.

In other words yes, more game modes would be welcome for they would promote more builds diversity. However they wouldn’t solve balance issues, which is the main concern for a pvp-centric game such as gw2 is

let me reword what i said, i hate when some one runs a build and dosent use it properly or in the right situations, not because the build is bad they just arnt using it properly, and for example a bunker guardian trying to kill a bunker guardian solo on the far point rather then helping the team.

as for build diversity and game modes, a better variety of game modes means a alot more viable builds, more viable builds means people are happier to accept current conquest meta builds because they get more options in how they can play, how many builds do you know are great for just duking it out that dont work in conquest?

Eh op if your build atlest makes sense and has a role is can fill you can run what ever you want if you are good enough. Also at the very lest if you can rotate properly you miles ahead of majority of players. I run no meta builds all time and been at the top end of both tq and sq for months.

Thief pd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhKtUGgVsoo

Engi 3xkit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxnsNysvq9w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jc8WeRStOc

Mesmer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY8Y7pvQQuA