Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Why are some bunkers allowed so much DPS?
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
sign that balance in this game is a joke.
logic dictates that if youre unkillable you must have no damage, and if you have ultraelectromagnetic damage you must die in 2 hits. and if you are in between that means you cant or may kill the unkillable, you die to a good glass cannon and your damage sucks compared to the glass cannon. idiots guide to balancing classes.
(edited by alcopaul.2156)
sign that balance in this game is a joke.
logic dictates that if youre unkillable you must have no damage, and if you have ultraelectromagnetic damage you must die in 2 hits. and if you are in between that means you cant kill the unkillable, you die to a good glass cannon and your damage sucks compared to the glass cannon. idiots guide to balancing classes.
I think that almost all of the complaints about ‘bunkers’ doing too much damage are in fact complaints about ‘balanced’ builds doing too much damage. IE, offensive utilities, weapons & traits, but defensive stats.
0/0/10/30/30 clerics/soldiers shouts Guardian, 0/0/30/30/20 settlers/clerics Engineer
^These are real bunker builds. They indeed, do no damage. I think players have a tendency to exaggerate the ‘unkillable’-ness of many builds that are actually a healthy mix.
Twitch.tv/chaithh
New Twitter: @chaithhh
I think its more like why aren’t all bunkers (specifically power bunkers) able to do more, while burst have a little more defense. The stats need to be brought together a little more, the TTK is silly. Bunkers inevitably die if they’re not condy because they do like no damage, and burst kill people in 2 seconds or die themselves… Feels like vanilla wow all over again, burst, 1 shot or lose. Not very engaging.
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Because not all classes have equally balanced berserker/glass builds.
Engineers run bunker because when they run rifle burst, thieves , warriors, and mesmers eat them alive. Same goes for power ranger and necro and ele.
Thief and mesmer, and now even the warrior all hardcounter all the other glass specs, so in order to survive the kittened spike and defensive capabilities of these glass specs, they go for condi bunker.
There will not be more glass specs that are not thief/mesmer/warrior so long as these three are not addressed, so the bunkers are here to stay. When they nerf the damage from these three, then they can go nerf the bunkers.
Rangers play spirit/BM simply because all their other options are kitten as hell.
A ranger’s power skills are halved in effectiveness due to the pet, but condis don’t receive the same halved damage penalty, so rangers will never run power builds given that they do not have boonstrip or ways to deal with prot, they do not have any meaningful defensive tools against other glass specs/getting trained, and conditions are just much better with dealing with the current meta of high spike/high toughness builds.
(edited by Zenith.7301)
@Chaith There is truth that some tanky DPS builds get mistaken for bunker builds. It could be that not enough pressure was applied to really test the builds capability to soak and avoid damage. However, I did not mean those builds. Generally in 1v1 situations players may perceive a build they simply can not get down as a bunker. But a real bunker is a build that maintains a point even in a 1 v x situation until back up arrives.
I agree (somewhat) that both those builds are bunkers and do not do much DPS. That being said at least for the engineer you could create a build nearly as tanky (in terms of what you actually need) and has significantly more DPS.
@ronpierce I think you might have a point here. Truthfully though many glass builds can not one shot a bunker. Many power bunker can not kill a glass build outright. I think for the most part this makes sense and is good balance. Not all condi bunkers are good for point holding (PU comes to mind) and most do not have the shear DPS to be an immediate threat. However, most do have enough DPS to pressure while still tanking. I believe even a bunker should have offense but so have so much you question what was the trade off for it?
@Zenith You are missing my question. I did not ask for bunkers to be nerfed. I asked why some are allowed so much DPS. It isn’t so much a question of glass being the problem (and as we all know glass builds are generally becoming tanky DPS rather than staying pure glass cannons). The question I am asking is why some builds that are bunker in nature ie contest a point for long periods of time without getting killed whether than be through dodging, blocking. stats, etc. is allowed so much DPS?
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I think its more like why aren’t all bunkers (specifically power bunkers) able to do more, while burst have a little more defense. The stats need to be brought together a little more, the TTK is silly. Bunkers inevitably die if they’re not condy because they do like no damage, and burst kill people in 2 seconds or die themselves… Feels like vanilla wow all over again, burst, 1 shot or lose. Not very engaging.
You feel that power bunkers do significantly less pressure than condition bunkers? That mostly depends on the profession, I’d say.
I wouldn’t mind if the stats on gear had a little less of a range, so the most tanky tank wasn’t so crazy, and the burstiest burst class wasn’t so bursty, yeah. Right now we’re seeing a lot of balanced builds. Every warrior that is in tPvP (except bunker) is kind of a balanced bruiser build. There are no glassy warriors in tPvP. Condition classes almost always get some kind of defensive stat as well. I’d say it’s pretty much balanced builds that are good right now. Glassy thieves and mesmers are good, but not super prevalent.
So I’d say that I don’t share your analysis of the meta – being ‘1-shot or lose’ – there are tons of long battles between balanced builds, I see this all the time. The Meta Warrior, Ranger, Necro, Engineer – none of these builds are built glass, or build bunker – except the occasionally glass power Engi.
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New Twitter: @chaithhh
It was a slight over-exaggeration but you get the idea. And unfortunately the only thing that’s really stopping THAT meta is conditions and wrecking ball for 10 seconds warriors, kinda makes it hard to pull off that burst, but if warriors get nerfed and so do conditions, I wouldn’t be in the slightest surprised if it reverted to a burst meta. To me, condition damage is a joke, but I try to stay out of that cause I’m biased. I simply don’t like the idea of it at all.
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Some skills (actually quite many) and conditions do way too much damage to be justified, even with bunker or semi-bunker style gear.
It has been pretty clear from very beginning that burning does insane damage, some mesmer/thief skills damage could use nerfbat etc… People just haven’t QQ’ed enough about it yet.
Even bunkers should be able to do some dps pressure though, however you could ask why some skills/combos do more damage than some guy can dish out with berserker gear.
(edited by jalmari.3906)
I think that almost all of the complaints about ‘bunkers’ doing too much damage are in fact complaints about ‘balanced’ builds doing too much damage. IE, offensive utilities, weapons & traits, but defensive stats.
0/0/10/30/30 clerics/soldiers shouts Guardian, 0/0/30/30/20 settlers/clerics Engineer
^These are real bunker builds. They indeed, do no damage. I think players have a tendency to exaggerate the ‘unkillable’-ness of many builds that are actually a healthy mix.
Yup. 8-10 months ago, when most builds were either full glass or full bunker, we made a lot of noise asking for more balanced/well-rounded builds to become viable. Carrion spirit ranger is not a bunker, and neither is rabid engineer. They both have some dps and some defensive tools, but nothing incredible in either department.
That 0/0/30/30/20 engineer, though…;) sorry couldn’t resist.
I think that almost all of the complaints about ‘bunkers’ doing too much damage are in fact complaints about ‘balanced’ builds doing too much damage. IE, offensive utilities, weapons & traits, but defensive stats.
0/0/10/30/30 clerics/soldiers shouts Guardian, 0/0/30/30/20 settlers/clerics Engineer
^These are real bunker builds. They indeed, do no damage. I think players have a tendency to exaggerate the ‘unkillable’-ness of many builds that are actually a healthy mix.
Yup. 8-10 months ago, when most builds were either full glass or full bunker, we made a lot of noise asking for more balanced/well-rounded builds to become viable. Carrion spirit ranger is not a bunker, and neither is rabid engineer. They both have some dps and some defensive tools, but nothing incredible in either department.
That 0/0/30/30/20 engineer, though…;) sorry couldn’t resist.
^lol, That build might actually be good if it could get some stability through traits. It’s not far off.
Twitch.tv/chaithh
New Twitter: @chaithhh
sign that balance in this game is a joke.
logic dictates that if youre unkillable you must have no damage, and if you have ultraelectromagnetic damage you must die in 2 hits. and if you are in between that means you cant kill the unkillable, you die to a good glass cannon and your damage sucks compared to the glass cannon. idiots guide to balancing classes.
I think that almost all of the complaints about ‘bunkers’ doing too much damage are in fact complaints about ‘balanced’ builds doing too much damage. IE, offensive utilities, weapons & traits, but defensive stats.
You are just redefining the “high damage bunker builds” as “balanced builds”.
(disregard warriors from this)if your build isn’t full bunker it requires vigor/invuln/evadespam/blocks. The only class that doesn’t have this is necro that has the deathshroud pool. Using shamans/rabid/clerics/soldiers amulet can help which is why condition builds are generally stronger because toughness scales better against power than vit does against conditions. general meta builds ->
-thief (feline grace/vigor/shadowsteps>high mobility)
-engi (perma vigor/AR/blinds galore/block on pistol5&toolkit)
-mesmer(not really viable, although PU is perma stealth, perma regen/prot with aegis+vigor on crit//shatter has perma vigor+invulns+stealth)
-ele (not really viable, s/f is most ‘meta’ build. 5s invul.. that’s about it really, a couple of blinds and reflect on earth 4 i guess, vigor from phoenix/arcane shield)
-guard (bunker, invul/vigor/energy runes)
-ranger(50% endurance regen baseline/evadespam through s/d&sb/high regen through spirit & healing spring)
-warrior(lol)
-necro(deathshroud, good weakness on dagger#5 and weakening shroud trait)
(edited by Oblivion.8307)
You are just redefining the “high damage bunker builds” as “balanced builds”.
So what is a bunker in your eyes? Ive been called high dmg bunker on my 30-10-0-20-10 engineer (without prot injection or cleansing formula). Do you you agree with that statement?
So basicly anything that has some tools to survive or isnt 100% glasscanon is a bunker?
(edited by Locuz.2651)
You are just redefining the “high damage bunker builds” as “balanced builds”.
So what is a bunker in your eyes? Ive been called high dmg bunker on my 30-10-0-20-10 engineer (without prot injection or cleansing formula). Do you you agree with that statement?
So basicly anything that has some tools to survive or isnt 100% glasscanon is a bunker?
No need to over exaggerate. BTW in my last post I did point out what a bunker is. I think many need reminding but it really isn’t all that complex. Any build that can hold and maintain a point for an extended duration in a 1 v x situation can be considered a bunker.
The build you describe (I do not know your traits but you can build a bunker from those points) may not seem it but with perma vigor, swiftness, likely back pack regenerator (protection injection or self regulating defenses could go here as well), reduced CD on pistol for elixir gun traits, bombs, tool kit, and nades or elixir gun you could possibly bunker well with that build. Proper use of healing turret plus your water fields and if you use elixir gun you have a stun break and an extra blast as well. While some may not consider it a bunker build played correctly you have enough CC, healing, AoE and blinds to bunker as long as you like.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
(edited by TheGuy.3568)
^ You might aswell call everything a bunker in that case.
^ You might aswell call everything a bunker in that case.
I do not understand what you mean. I get forums are about with responses but I simply pointed out you can run a bunker build with that point allocation. Unless you would like to explain to me how it is not bunker (I do not think it is important to the conversation however). Perhaps you are new and do not understand what bunker is or you are considering only a certain type of bunker build ie high defensive stats and soaks up damage vs damage avoidance. In either case I explain what a bunker is for reference in my other post.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
(edited by TheGuy.3568)
I do not understand what you mean. I get forums are about with responses but I simply pointed out you can run a bunker build with that point allocation. Unless you would like to explain to me how it is not bunker (I do not think it is important to the conversation however). Perhaps you are new and do not understand what bunker is or you are considering only a certain type of bunker build ie high defensive stats and soaks up damage vs damage avoidance. In either case I explain what a bunker is for reference in my other post.
No … you seem to misunderstand what a bunker is.
Please go ahead and show me a bunker build with that point allocation and preferably without the traits i mentioned (even with them its not a real bunker build).
Everything can be called a bunker in that case. Most professions have their ways to avoid, soak or overcome dmg (via regen etc) unless people are full glass with little to no defensive traits or uttilities. If we look at the title of this thread:
“Why are some bunkers allowed to do so much damage”
Im not thinking off SD thieves that use spamevades to stay alive. Or hammer warriors with their stunns. Or cookie cutter bomb /nade engis with their blinds and knockback. Or standard condi build necros using plague as elite.
Im looking at real bunkerbuilds that have ways to avoid AND soak damage. Since only avoidance whont get you very far when youre forced to stay on point vs two players.
You might aswell change the question to:
“Why is everyone that has ways to avoid, mitigate or overcome damage doing so much damage”.
^ Which basicly means everyone (unless youre full glass). As chaith stated:
I think that almost all of the complaints about ‘bunkers’ doing too much damage are in fact complaints about ‘balanced’ builds doing too much damage. IE, offensive utilities, weapons & traits, but defensive stats.
0/0/10/30/30 clerics/soldiers shouts Guardian, 0/0/30/30/20 settlers/clerics Engineer
^These are real bunker builds. They indeed, do no damage. I think players have a tendency to exaggerate the ‘unkillable’-ness of many builds that are actually a healthy mix.
(edited by Locuz.2651)
You are just redefining the “high damage bunker builds” as “balanced builds”.
So what is a bunker in your eyes? Ive been called high dmg bunker on my 30-10-0-20-10 engineer (without prot injection or cleansing formula). Do you you agree with that statement?
So basicly anything that has some tools to survive or isnt 100% glasscanon is a bunker?
No need to over exaggerate. BTW in my last post I did point out what a bunker is. I think many need reminding but it really isn’t all that complex. Any build that can hold and maintain a point for an extended duration in a 1 v x situation can be considered a bunker.
The build you describe (I do not know your traits but you can build a bunker from those points) may not seem it but with perma vigor, swiftness, likely back pack regenerator (protection injection or self regulating defenses could go here as well), reduced CD on pistol for elixir gun traits, bombs, tool kit, and nades or elixir gun you could possibly bunker well with that build. Proper use of healing turret plus your water fields and if you use elixir gun you have a stun break and an extra blast as well. While some may not consider it a bunker build played correctly you have enough CC, healing, AoE and blinds to bunker as long as you like.
That build is not a bunker, no matter how you try and spin it. It’s a balanced build. The only defensive traits are 20 deep. It does good damage, but not great. It has decent defense, but not great. That build is all about knowing when to use the right thing at the right time. It’s actually how most classes should be in my opinion. It doesn’t have instant death burst damage, nor stupid amounts of passive survivability, it’s all active and dependent on the individual playing. It promotes skillful play.
Chaith go back to streaming man – best fun with engineer streams I ever had!
0/0/10/30/30 cleric shout Guardian
Many saying it doesn’t work so good, still my only never changing beloved guardian spec
0 0 10 30 30 tiny rocksolid asura ftw <3 Can’t kill kyhlo crates btw… xD
(edited by Archaon.6245)
Most builds that people call “bunkers” are actually either bruisers (most side-point “bunkers”), or very defensive supports (most mid-point “bunkers”). They aren’t actually full-on bunkers, because in general that’s pretty worthless in this game in sPvP; its far more helpful to shave off defense for either more damage (to 1v1) or support (to support the team).
I played today vs team of 2 war bunkers / 2 guard bunkers and condi necro. That right there is some of the worse pvp experience I had in any game. If I knew before buying this game PvP would rotate around defensive/bunker builds camping points I would definitely avoid it.
let me take low dmg, clean condis, have 100000 boons and still do silly dmg
so why should anyone play dps build anymore?
nice logic by anet but w/e, they are forcing same crap in pve and wvw as well, go roll heavy/tanky or don’t play this game
if your class can’t run tanky build then reroll
[Teef] guild :>
(edited by Cynz.9437)