Guild Wars 2

In regards to Burn Condition mechanic (globally) and not Class Specific Burns.

Went against 2 eles, 2 burn guards and a Necro comp.
Got rekt on the first game.

Switched to shout cleansing bunker guard second game. Also had 2 condi transfering Necros on my team (the extra necro wasn’t really needed but all the same)
Won by almost 250+ points.

People complain about burns or conditions in general without considering their team compositions. Any team with a shout cleansing Guardian + Necro and/or Ele comp (or just large amounts of condi cleanses in general) shouldn’t have ANY issues with condition classes. Definitely shouldn’t have issues with burn guards.

As much as I want solo pvp to be balanced to the point where people can run any build they’d like with little to no consequences, it’s just not going to happen. Things will always seem overpowered if your team composition isn’t there.

I don’t think anyone can count this as evidence to show “Burning isn’t OP.”

Coulter.2315:

I don’t think anyone can count this as evidence to show “Burning isn’t OP.”

Easily this.

Do they not teach the scientific method in school anymore?

Why does it even matter if burn is op or not with the disgusting levels of power creep in this game? Everything in this game in its current state is at a such ridiculous level of power creep that balance as flown so far at the window that the developers are just giving any class whatever they want.

meow one twenty.4376:

Coulter.2315:

I don’t think anyone can count this as evidence to show “Burning isn’t OP.”

Easily this.

Do they not teach the scientific method in school anymore?

Because other “burns are op” threads are more genuine?

Saiyan.1704:

meow one twenty.4376:

Coulter.2315:

I don’t think anyone can count this as evidence to show “Burning isn’t OP.”

Easily this.

Do they not teach the scientific method in school anymore?

Because other “burns are op” threads are more genuine?

They definitely aren’t.

not running someone with soldier runes in your team is dumb imo. counters condi so hard.

So basically you just invented the wheel again? Of course a bunker guard counters burning and conditions in general.

Burning in its current state is OP, you don’t always have a bunker guardian at hand for the team fight but burning based classes are almost everywhere.

eh, id rather get hit by burning than a mesmer shatter

burning isnt op, people would just rather not run builds that have condi removal. Everyone in this forum wants to run a pure zerker build then cry’s dmg is too high.

I do wish they would slightly lower burn dmg and slightly raise bleed. By tiny amounts

serenke.4806:

So basically you just invented the wheel again? Of course a bunker guard counters burning and conditions in general.

Burning in its current state is OP, you don’t always have a bunker guardian at hand for the team fight but burning based classes are almost everywhere.

Appreciate the complement but no, it’s been around since launch. I’m just stating the obvious here.

There’s so many soft counters to Burn and Conditions in general that these builds are arguably less viable than Power builds in higher tier PvP .

You don’t even need a shout Guard to soft counter burns or condi builds. Grab any combination of condi transfering Necros, Diamond Skin Ele (or just Water for that matter), Absolute Resolution Guardians and you’ll darn near counter any condition team. There’s a million ways to soft counter burn conditions that it’s ridiculous.

I don’t think anyone can count your comment as evidence to show “Burning in it’s current state is OP.”

Burning will be extremely underwhelming to the point where the game is probably not worth playing anymore if they scale it back to pre-patch levels.

The current state of burn damage creates risks/opportunity costs for those who run builds without cleansing. I’m speaking from the solo q, 2-3 man pre perspective but this is even moreso with full pre.

Some specs have better access to it while others have better cleansing. If they do plan on adjusting, it should be done on a case by case scenario instead of nuking the condition entirely.

kdaddy.5431:

burning isnt op, people would just rather not run builds that have condi removal. Everyone in this forum wants to run a pure zerker build then cry’s dmg is too high.

I do wish they would slightly lower burn dmg and slightly raise bleed. By tiny amounts

this has always been my impression of the forum, and it’s been reinforced by all the RoF QQ. if you bring cleanses, or if someone runs AOE cleanses you are just fine. also, blocks, dodges and evades actually avoid the application of conditions so there’s that too. conditions have more counterplay than power damage imo.

I don’t know if it is burning.

DD ele is the only spec that is currently too strong because of burning.

Other burning spec usually suck against builds with plenty condie removal and is usually squishy as well. Burning for them is just a burst condie damage. Similar to zerker specs.

DD ele on the other hand, has good physical damage, good burn damage, reasonably tanky, next-level recovery and great mobility. I would say Burn is only a problem on DD ele.

I agree with kdaddy. Some builds(d/d ele is one) stack burn a bit too fast and bleed is underpowerd. Condie builds are high risk. Especially in teamfights its hard to keep the stacks.
I play condi with bleed focus in rabid armor (not a build most will consider viable but it counteres zerkers). Pre patch i had no issue with rangers and zerkers in general. Now when meeting a survival ranger with condi damage i am in trouble. He has good cleanse and condition damage. The world changed to more condition builds and as reaction condition cleaners and now about every third oponent i meet seems to be a hardcounter. and i don´t complain. Its good when there is build diversity and a rock/paper/scissors system working.

kdaddy.5431:

burning isnt op, people would just rather not run builds that have condi removal. Everyone in this forum wants to run a pure zerker build then cry’s dmg is too high.

I do wish they would slightly lower burn dmg and slightly raise bleed. By tiny amounts

In its current state it is OP because unless you build specifically for it, you won’t be able to remove it in any viable way. Let’s say you have 3 ways to cleanse (which is already a lot more than some have), do you cleanse 1 stack and waste the cleanse? Do you wait until you have 5 stacks and cleanse? You’d have lost a lot of health by then and lo and behold the next 2-3 stacks are already on you.

Some classes just have burning too readily available to have effective counterplay.

serenke.4806:

kdaddy.5431:

burning isnt op, people would just rather not run builds that have condi removal. Everyone in this forum wants to run a pure zerker build then cry’s dmg is too high.

I do wish they would slightly lower burn dmg and slightly raise bleed. By tiny amounts

In its current state it is OP because unless you build specifically for it, you won’t be able to remove it in any viable way. Let’s say you have 3 ways to cleanse (which is already a lot more than some have), do you cleanse 1 stack and waste the cleanse? Do you wait until you have 5 stacks and cleanse? You’d have lost a lot of health by then and lo and behold the next 2-3 stacks are already on you.

Some classes just have burning too readily available to have effective counterplay.

PU Shatter Mesmer has the least amount of cleansing in the current meta (read: zero), and it deals with Celestial D/D Elementalist just fine. Every other build in the current meta has a plethora of cleansing available to it. For example, the next two weakest cleansers are D/P Thief and GS/Hammer Warrior, and those cleanse just fine versus Celestial D/D Elementalist, and they also disengage just fine as well.

That said, a lot of non-competitive non-meta builds can definitely have issues with cleansing.

serenke.4806:

kdaddy.5431:

burning isnt op, people would just rather not run builds that have condi removal. Everyone in this forum wants to run a pure zerker build then cry’s dmg is too high.

I do wish they would slightly lower burn dmg and slightly raise bleed. By tiny amounts

In its current state it is OP because unless you build specifically for it, you won’t be able to remove it in any viable way. Let’s say you have 3 ways to cleanse (which is already a lot more than some have), do you cleanse 1 stack and waste the cleanse? Do you wait until you have 5 stacks and cleanse? You’d have lost a lot of health by then and lo and behold the next 2-3 stacks are already on you.

Some classes just have burning too readily available to have effective counterplay.

you could always cc and kill them. idk why you think you should just be able to tank the condi damage, its damage dude. you can’t facetank power, and as such it forces you to take invuns etc.
‘some classes just have crits too readily available to have effective counterplay’ could be easily said about power damage. ‘QQ i need to be able to evade and invun all damage forever or else op’ is the vibe i get.
like, homes you can’t expect just to be able to cleanse all condis and be condi free, just like you can’t expect to be immune to power damage all the time. there are two different types of damage and they will kill you.

Burning damage is fine.

The problem is that there are a few skills (mostly from guardian and d/d ele) which can apply multiple stacks and those skills can be used together easily. It allows conditions to do heavy burst damage if you don’t immediately remove it. Just reduce the number of stacks (more than 2 stacks on any skill is a bit much) and increase duration in order to smooth out the damage a little.

Burning damage and application are both fine; this is an L2P issue.

Oh yes i once tried to tank a power necro. I died faster than tanking a d/d ele.
Evade being hit. Regardless of power or condies or you die fast. The problems with d/d ele comes when he is played well moving/disengaging/engaging as he pleases.
Sorry but burning application has to much stacks on flame breath and ring of fire.
On the other side burning precision is to weak with 5s ICD…

Burning is OP because for 3 years there was no DOT in the game can hit 2.5K in tack and it should not be in future.

posthumecaver.6473:

Burning is OP because for 3 years there was no DOT in the game can hit 2.5K in tack and it should not be in future.

Why shouldn’t it be? In actual organized team-play which this game is balanced around, there’s a lot of cleansing. Every meta build brings ample amounts of cleansing save for one (PU Shatter Mesmer). Burning seems to only be a problem for hot-join heroes who are not taken into account when balancing this game.

Velimere.7685:

posthumecaver.6473:

Burning is OP because for 3 years there was no DOT in the game can hit 2.5K in tack and it should not be in future.

Why shouldn’kitten In actual organized team-play which this game is balanced around, there’s a lot of cleansing. Every meta build brings ample amounts of cleansing save for one (PU Shatter Mesmer). Burning seems to only be a problem for hot-join heroes who are not taken into account when balancing this game.

for example, i run five shouts on my warrior (who i play 90% of my games with rn, engi is just ehhh) alongside soldier runes. two shouts clense two condis, while the other three clense one each. that’s seven aoe clenses for my team, and each heal for 2.2k. that’s loads of cleanse for a teamfight, and that’s not even as many clenses as a bunk guard brings (and they convert condis to boons too dang).

tldr: just have one person with soldier runes and shouts at mid. ez.

I also think that burning is not OP.

There’s not a whole lot of classes that can apply a lot of burns in little time (Guardian and Engi comes to mind). They can “burst” you lots of burning stacks, that can tick for 3.000 damage probably, but you generally have condi cleanse. You can’t “cleanse” power damage (and I know this is another topic).

So… I’m fine with some condi builds being able to do that much damage with a well executed combo, as you are able to cleanse it.

The only class I have a problem with burns is Elementalist, because Ring of Fire range/borders are a little bit… buggy? You step the border but never actually enter/leave it, yet there you have, 6 stacks of burning, all for you; and while those stacks won’t deal a lot of damage, it’s worth 1.000-1.500 damage, applied constantly (which makes condi cleanse less relevant).

Maybe, then, the problem lies in burn application form and not on the raw damage it can do. Just my opinion

Poliator.7021:

The only class I have a problem with burns is Elementalist, because Ring of Fire range/borders are a little bit… buggy? You step the border but never actually enter/leave it, yet there you have, 6 stacks of burning, all for you;

How about that? If you don’t touch fire, you don’t get burned by fire!

Blocks, evades, and invulns are also a thing too.

Velimere.7685:

Poliator.7021:

The only class I have a problem with burns is Elementalist, because Ring of Fire range/borders are a little bit… buggy? You step the border but never actually enter/leave it, yet there you have, 6 stacks of burning, all for you;

How about that? If you don’t touch fire, you don’t get burned by fire!

Blocks, evades, and invulns are also a thing too.

And that doesn’t deny my point that the current Celestial Elementalist (Fire) build is one of the classes that uses burn the most efficiently, giving an output of burns at a higher pace than you can cleanse/invuln/evade/block.

Also, the example of the Ring of Fire was it’s buggyness. You don’t actually touch it, yet the physics of the game says “OH, he went in and out! MUST BURN ermahgehd.” And there you go, 6 stacks of burn you shouldn’t have gotten. I shouldn’t be forced to use anything defensive for something that shouldn’t affect me.

Poliator.7021:

And that doesn’t deny my point that the current Celestial Elementalist (Fire) build is one of the classes that uses burn the most efficiently, giving an output of burns at a higher pace than you can cleanse/invuln/evade/block.

Sorry, but no. Ring of Fire is on, what, a 10-second recharge when traited? You gain endurance at 5% per second requiring 50% per dodge. How many seconds is that per dodge again? Not to mention the fact that Ring of Fire isn’t being used instantly after recharge in every or even most rotations. What’s more, every meta build uses at least one Superior Sigil of Energy, and all of them save for GS/Hammer Warrior (who can cleanse 5 conditions every 10 seconds) have access to Vigor.

Poliator.7021:

Also, the example of the Ring of Fire was it’s buggyness. You don’t actually touch it, yet the physics of the game says “OH, he went in and out! MUST BURN ermahgehd.” And there you go, 6 stacks of burn you shouldn’t have gotten. I shouldn’t be forced to use anything defensive for something that shouldn’t affect me.

That sounds very different than what you stated before:

Poliator.7021:

You step the border but never actually enter/leave it, yet there you have, 6 stacks of burning, all for you;

I did not understand why ring of fire got 3 stacks. Make it 1 like flamewall. And reduce dragon breath to 3 or even 2 stacks and its fine.

Wolfric.9380:

I did not understand why ring of fire got 3 stacks. Make it 1 like flamewall. And reduce dragon breath to 3 or even 2 stacks and its fine.

The point is it’s actual worthy punishment consistent with area-denial; if anything, Flamewall needs to be buffed. Also, Drake’s Breath inflicts a single stack for 3 seconds per tick. It is relatively weak and doges are generally not wasted on it; that said, I’d still increase it’s recharge to 8 seconds if it appeases the tinfoil hats.

burning isnt op, builds that stack burning with insane rate force enemy team to go atleast 1 bunker guard.

Guild Wars 2 as long as you play your build well you will get rewarded, BUT your build must be meta, if enemy have burnstacker in team u need to switch to bunkerguard sorry.
Its like dumbfire on necros that forced warriors to go shield with reflect cuz it was so dumbly powerful.

Mefiq.7039:

burning isnt op, builds that stack burning with insane rate force enemy team to go atleast 1 bunker guard.

Guild Wars 2 as long as you play your build well you will get rewarded, BUT your build must be meta, if enemy have burnstacker in team u need to switch to bunkerguard sorry.
Its like dumbfire on necros that forced warriors to go shield with reflect cuz it was so dumbly powerful.

Every meta build other than PU Shatter Mesmer has enough cleansing to deal with burning. I consistently beat a Burn Guardian while playing D/P Thief practicing 1v1, and I simply cleansed appropriately.

Velimere.7685:

Burning damage and application are both fine; this is an L2P issue.

OP logic is flawed, well first of all in a 1v1 shout guard vs burn guard (or any condi removal build):
The burn guard can keep applying lot of burns with just the autoattack, the support guard has to use long cooldown utility skills that aren’t really worth it outside of a teamfight.
In teamfight scenario my theory is that the burn guard has to be combined with another condi player that deals many different types of long duration condi (necro/mesmer) that will screen the burn stack hopefully make its removal harder and hit for a few more ticks.
They can literally wipe a whole team fighting closely on a point without them noticing

RevanCorana.8942:

OP logic is flawed, well first of all in a 1v1 shout guard vs burn guard (or any condi removal build):
The burn guard can keep applying lot of burns with just the autoattack, the support guard has to use long cooldown utility skills that aren’t really worth it outside of a teamfight.
In teamfight scenario my theory is that the burn guard has to be combined with another condi player that deals many different types of long duration condi (necro/mesmer) that will screen the burn stack hopefully make its removal harder and hit for a few more ticks.
They can literally wipe a whole team fighting closely on a point without them noticing

Negating 100% of condition damage would be broken it’s not intended, in team fights delaying their burst leaves them open for one. Honestly conditions are kind of underwhelming mesmers is a special case burning and sometimes confusion are the only ones you’ll bother noticing.

What’s the difference between not noticing a LB ranger or SD engi bursting you?

So many threads like this one. My opinion: Burn is fine. Burn stacking from guards/eles are NOT fine and need nerfed.

style.6173:

My opinion: Burn is fine. Burn stacking from guards/eles are NOT fine and need nerfed.

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with your opinion.

This game has become a 1st person shooter. I don’t pvp anymore I don’t see the point of doing it until Anet get their head out of their kitten and balance this kitten once for all.

xbutcherx.3861:

This game has become a 1st person shooter. I don’t pvp anymore I don’t see the point of doing it until Anet get their head out of their kitten and balance this kitten once for all.

Engineers, Rangers, and Warriors need some love, but I’d say it’s fairly balanced otherwise.

The damage coefficients on burn are not OP. What is OP is that it stacks to 25 and this is now broken considering how many random attacks in the game easily with no applied effort, splash AoE burn fields all over the place.

The game’s initial design for condis was like this: (Bleed stacks 25, weaker condi but stackable for high DPS output in the long fight. Poison single stack, stacks duration, weaker condi but kills heal potential when applied with longer duration. Burn is powerful single stack DPS, only stacks duration, not intensity.) This was more in balance with how weapon skills/utilities/traits were originally designed and how they dished out condis in the game but now everything stacks to 25 and this was never originally taken in to consideration when designing things like Warrior F1 Longbow, Purging Flames, Ele Fire Fields, ect.. ect.. so now we have a design flaw. Burn is the most powerful condi, it is the easiest condi to land and it is BY FAR the easiest condi to stack, due to the nature of AoE burn fields. “Sounds balanced right?”

But there in the above is the actual problem. Now that burn is allowed stacking up to 25, weapon skills/utilities/traits need reworking to accommodate this because as of now they break condi play in the game and make burn the only condi that is worth using because it is very easy to apply, very easy to stack and has enormous DPS in contrast to other condis.

My qualm is not that burning is OP but rather it is pushing other condi play out of meta entirely.

The only burning that is OP is ele burning.

The only burning that is OP is none.

The only burning that is OP is the kind a Necro transfers back.

style.6173:

So many threads like this one. My opinion: Burn is fine. Burn stacking from guards/eles are NOT fine and need nerfed.

Spot on.

Burning from Guardian and Elementalist is fine.