Guild Wars 2

There’s been a trend in topic since release: “100b OP,” “Thief OP,” “Mesmer OP.” Replace 100b, Thief, Mesmer with “Burst” and you quite literally have the same topic. Well I’m here today to tell you that these topics do in fact have merit, but not because of the specific points they argue but they show a common underlying theme – they all show that burst is not working as it should.

The one mistake players make is saying that burst is bad mechanic. However certain games like Street Fighter can pull it of magnificently. Street Fighter does burst through high damage combos correctly because it understands the pacing of the genre. GW2 however, doesn’t seem to understand the pacing of its own battle system when it comes to burst. GW2 is an MMO with an action-oriented combat system, but it seems to treat certain mechanics, like burst, in the manner of a turn based game. It just doesn’t work that way and here’s why.

1) Burst in GW2 is often treated as an easy hit. A general rule in action games is that the easier it is for an attack to land, the weaker it should be. This is because easy hits are there to pressure opponents into creating openings for larger hits, not gib them if one manages to hit.

2) Burst is not projected well enough. In action games, attack telegraphing not only explains what kind of move is being used, but also the strength. If it’s strong it needs to look strong. An example of this is the thief’s BS stealth combo. It’s baffling, logically, for players to lose half or more their health in seconds of attacks they can barely see (with the first one being a hit they can’t see at all).

3) In action games, you should never allow players to initiate with huge amounts of burst. Burst should come from punishing openings caused by poor predictions, not by being able to land the first punch due to the player being mentally unprepared. This causes fights to be anticlimactic because of the lack of buildup and the initial punishment for not reacting in time makes the rest of the fight feel frustrating.

Agreed, a strong skill done right is churning earth for example which gives u time to prepare and react or even atack the guy doing it and then evade and it puts the caster in alot of risk, another one is the wells of the necro which at the right time can be devastating but done at the wrong time can be easily evaded. Two worst examples are as we all know the steal+cnd+backstab and the shatter, first one needs to be changed so u have a bit more time to react to prevent cnd in the first place second needs to be nerfed in power because the double and triple shatering + might that is going on lately is ridiculous. 100b i think is fine because u can usualy evade most of it unless ur skills are on cd.

I agree. By removing holy trinity (or more specifically dedicated healers) they gave a free reign to burst damage, because it is very hard to mitigate with ones own heals and mitigation. Currently burst damage is not balanced in couple of ways:

1. burst is not balanced against defensive skills
2. burst is not balanced by itself compared to what it takes to execute it

We need more effective anti-burst tools. We need skills like Shield Bash, Shield Stance, prot spirit, Smoke Powder Defense, etc. from GW1.

Thiefs unloading 10k+ in 2 hits before target have any chance to react are broken on a whole different level. If they are to keep their stealth as an offensive tool, their whole focus needs to shift to conditions and away from straight up damage.

Time wasted is another factor to consider. Let’s say it takes 20-30 seconds to run to a point, 20 seconds before a Thief shows up, 2-3 seconds to die, and then potentially a 20 second wait to respawn.

Casual players want to spend their time fighting, and having a chance to either kill or be killed. They don’t want to die in seconds, or be unable to kill the other player because they out-heal the damage they take. The yo-yo health bars of bunkers is boring and futile to fight against, and being killed in seconds is also tedious.

Blizzard learned this lesson with Cataclysm, where they reduced the healing power of healers, but giving other classes better self healing and better damage reduction in the form of the new and improved Resilience.

Tournament players might prefer the fast style, but casual players don’t, so ArenaNet needs to find a compromise to satisfy both sides, or choose which is their priority.

TwoBit.5903:

There’s been a trend in topic since release: “100b OP,” “Thief OP,” “Mesmer OP.” Replace 100b, Thief, Mesmer with “Burst” and you quite literally have the same topic. Well I’m here today to tell you that these topics do in fact have merit, but not because of the specific points they argue but they show a common underlying theme – they all show that burst is not working as it should.

The one mistake players make is saying that burst is bad mechanic. However certain games like Street Fighter can pull it of magnificently. Street Fighter does burst through high damage combos correctly because it understands the pacing of the genre. GW2 however, doesn’t seem to understand the pacing of its own battle system when it comes to burst. GW2 is an MMO with an action-oriented combat system, but it seems to treat certain mechanics, like burst, in the manner of a turn based game. It just doesn’t work that way and here’s why.

1) Burst in GW2 is often treated as an easy hit. A general rule in action games is that the easier it is for an attack to land, the weaker it should be. This is because easy hits are there to pressure opponents into creating openings for larger hits, not gib them if one manages to hit.

2) Burst is not projected well enough. In action games, attack telegraphing not only explains what kind of move is being used, but also the strength. If it’s strong it needs to look strong. An example of this is the thief’s BS stealth combo. It’s baffling, logically, for players to lose half or more their health in seconds of attacks they can barely see (with the first one being a hit they can’t see at all).

3) In action games, you should never allow players to initiate with huge amounts of burst. Burst should come from punishing openings caused by poor predictions, not by being able to land the first punch due to the player being mentally unprepared. This causes fights to be anticlimactic because of the lack of buildup and the initial punishment for not reacting in time makes the rest of the fight feel frustrating.

get this kitten out of here who do u think you are bringing logic in to this community

Zantetsuken.9051:

Time wasted is another factor to consider. Let’s say it takes 20-30 seconds to run to a point, 20 seconds before a Thief shows up, 2-3 seconds to die, and then potentially a 20 second wait to respawn.

Casual players want to spend their time fighting, and having a chance to either kill or be killed. They don’t want to die in seconds, or be unable to kill the other player because they out-heal the damage they take. The yo-yo health bars of bunkers is boring and futile to fight against, and being killed in seconds is also tedious.

Blizzard learned this lesson with Cataclysm, where they reduced the healing power of healers, but giving other classes better self healing and better damage reduction in the form of the new and improved Resilience.

Tournament players might prefer the fast style, but casual players don’t, so ArenaNet needs to find a compromise to satisfy both sides, or choose which is their priority.

so basically blizzard succeeded and anet epic fail not learning from the big boys who set the pace.. must be a reason WoW still has the most subscribers how many years is it now lol. imagine lets say anet charge a monthly fee to play lol who would have bailed by now….

GW2 isn’t a fighting game and it shouldn’t been looked as such. You are rarely engaged in 1v1s until 1 of you die, as such some of the things about being able to set up combos by yourself is extremely risky and would not work. You will be smacked by someone else.

Burst would be fine if a burst doesn’t have 90% chance of killing someone. Also being able to engage and immediately burst when you stun or just engage with your strongest skill is extremely anti climactic but I think it can be done.

Bursts just need much longer cool downs. If you waste your burst on 1 person, you become useless for a long time. In my opinion, this will make it much more rewarding to burst and it will only be used when you need to.

totally agree with the OP. all his comparisons have merit. GW2 isn’t a fighting game but the same principles apply, pacing is very important in mmo pvp. you want fights to feel like there’s some build up, and they don’t end immediately or drag on forever. ideally you posture some, you poke, you try to figure out the opponents weaknesses, and then when you’re set up you try to throw your combo, or exploit an opening in the opponents defense to go for the finish. group fights in mmos should strive for that same balance as well as 1v1’s.

it is a very real problem that many professions in GW2 can burst with little setup required and few visual tells or windup to indicate they are coming. burst should require set up or window of opportunity to land, and it should have obvious visual tells to indicate that it’s coming for new players.

The #1 problem with burst is that Anet gave the average player way too much customization of their build, and people tend to make terrible builds when they are just starting out. These builds are unfortunately, and maybe even unfairly, decimated by the easier burst builds that have innate advantages over those other burst builds.

Basically, burst is usually only a problem for other burst builds, and burst builds in general (pick up play) are bad. They only fit well into team structure where your teammates know what you are and support you.

Nicely put. I had a sense that things were off, but I hadn’t thought to identify why things seemed wrong. There’s a scepter dagger combo that’s basically 3→4→5 in fire attunement, but landing phoenix and fire grab requires some anticipation if the target isn’t rooted or down after an updraft. Landing it feels good when you’re trying to anticipate what they’ll do, but over lots of games it just doesn’t pay off as much as other more reliable damage setups, which do comparable damage and don’t telegraph themselves. Of course, that’s more frustrating for the victim, and less interesting for the actor.

This is an unusually insightful post. For whatever it is worth: I commend you for a well-constructed explanation of a solid analysis.

Very well-reasoned post. These are most of the reasons I dislike playing burst classes in general, and really dislike playing burst specs in GW2. Playing a burst spec doesn’t even feel like playing against another player—it’s more like a sandbox time trial where your burst must be faster than their reaction time. Can you kill someone before he can react? Exciting!

I don’t think there’s much chance to re-design the entire concept of burst from the ground up, though, so…

—Anet should focus on the aspects of combat that are fun—i.e., small-scale teamfights where burst professions can’t just kill at will like in hotjoins.

—They should work at rewarding other playstyles besides gank (hotjoins again not looking very good here).

Small-scale arena fits this bill, limiting the disengage/gank playstyle. CTF might work, although burst/mobility professions would look pretty good there—we’d need a mechanic that encourages different team splits while limiting 1v1 chases.

So, basically, remove hotjoin.

Basically stuns and ccs are too common and easy. Also distance is too easily closed. These things allow bursts to happen most of the time. If they did not exist, bursts will be dodged and punished.

That actually made a lot of sense and having played several fighting-games at a moderate level, I think your comparison is valid.

Onto your points:

1) I’ve been saying for quite a while, that certain Burst-Chars have it too easy to land their incerdibly strong attacks. Thief for example can get into range with stealing and can land C’n’D very easily because you can activate it before stealing. Then, with you on top of your Target, it’s pretty easy to land the Backstab. Underestimated by players is also the fact, that the follow-up pressure (Heartseeker) is a leap with quite a big range that is also very very easy to land.
I’ve toyed around with Thief-builds that are more tanky with less crit-chance (but the 100% crit in stealth), with BS being the one real damage-dealer. You can’t combo sth. down so easily, so you’ll have to land multiple BS’s over a longer fight and If you can’t combo sth. down instantly and only have stealing once per fight, it actually gets much harder to land the C’n’D+BS. It’s also easier for the opponent to outplay you with good movement, or to hinder your movement with cripple and Chilled etc. which then does reduce a lot of DPS from the Thief.
The Mesmer has it easy as well, he got a leap that also Immobilizes and you can’t even do return-DPS or CC him during a spike and of course, the leap and the insane burst, have very small CD’s.

2) I guess you’re right, but I don’t see this as a huge problem, just a minor annoyance. On the Thief it’s sth. completely different: It’s not a Problem of an Animation, but of simply being able to see him before you get instagibbed.

3) True as well. I guess in GW1, certain Spikes were okay and it enabled different builds and interesting gameplay. But in GW1, you had dedicated healers and bursting sth. down quickly actually required teamwork and it couldn’t be done by just one Glass-Cannon. I think it’s better to look at GW2 as an action-game in the aspect of burst and with all the 1v1’s and other smaller fights happening, the comparison to a fighting-game isn’t far fetched at all.
In Fighting-Games, there are certain mechanics to counter instakill-combos right at the beginning of a fight (which is basically how a Thief or Mesmer work in GW2). I think it’s fantastic that GW2 implemented Stunbreakers, but they don’t help that much, if the DMG is dished out in under a second by some Chars. In Fighting-Games, you very often also have some kind of a Burst-Meter, that has to build up, for you to use your best combo’s. I think it could be a neat Idea to be explored, to let the burstiest Chars kinda build up their DPS during a fight, somehow make Initiative and the Shatter-Skills more like the adrenalin of the Warrior. It’s kind of a stupid comparison, because unfortunately, the biggest DPS-Skills on the War don’t even require Adrenaline. ^^’

Overall, I think one solution to this Problem would be to simply increase the durability of Chars (higher vita and higher Armor), so they don’t die instantly to even the biggest combo’s. Fights would be longer, burst-chars would have to play together with other char’s to bring sth. down and it would generally increase Teamplay. Burst-Chars also wouldn’t be obsolete, because no DMG was nerfed on them directly, so they’d still put out by far the highest DPS in the shortest amount of time, it just wouldn’t suffice to bring sm1 down all by yourself.

The (player skill + opportunity cost) to outcome ratio in this game should be roughly equal across all skills, yet most of the highest damaging attacks in this game take virtually no skill to perform.

guza.6170:

Agreed, a strong skill done right is churning earth for example which gives u time to prepare and react or even atack the guy doing it and then evade and it puts the caster in alot of risk.

totally agree, churning earth is a perfect skill, its the Meteor Shower(gw1) of GW2, takes ages to cast, prone to interrupts, makes you a prime target, but its well worth it if you can get it off.
thats how burst should be, a punishment for foes who ignored the signs, not this thief bulls%%t, stab stab stab you’re dead, no warning, from out of nowhere.

the burst in GW2 is just pressing afew buttons and watching things die instantly.

yup burst in this game is backward. thief and mesmer can basically insta burst with zero skill required

With the exception to thieves, I disagree fully. While the skills themselves your referring to may be “quick” they are capable of being avoided.

Mesmers: Big bursts are usually going to be initiated by a root/stun. You can see that root/stun coming by knowing the mechanics of mesmers and what the buff looks like when they utilize that skill. Dodging that skill allows you to mitigate that damage.

Also, playing away from a mesmer when you know he has mind wrack up is needed. If you see a ton of clones running towards, simply dodge roll INTO the clones. It forces the clones to blow up and in return you’ll mitigate all of that damage, or may only eat one shatter. Take note that mind wrack is on a 9 second cooldown, so you can use that to your advantage when fighting mesmers.

Warriors: If the warriors pops frenzy + 100b…. Dodge roll. If he stuns you…. Use a break stun. 100b does alot of damage, yes, but you shouldn’t be eating more than a few hits from it if you react quick enough. Dodge rolling a whirlwind, or eviscerate can literally turn that fight around for you in moments.

Most of the Warriors attacks are quick, that is understood… But all of the damage or attacks they do can be avoided. For example, after 90% of warriors pop 100b + frenzy, they WILL use whirlwind after 100b is done. Create distance, get ready to dodge roll.

Thieves: Truly, I have no issues with thieves. I personally believe their burst is quite strong, so I will agree with that, but I do not believe that you can’t mitigate their incoming damage. If I see a thief with basilisk venom on I either A) Put tons of pressure on that thief and make him switch to shortbow to waste that stun or Play super defensive and get ready to mist form, port, pop shocking aura. Whatever is at my disposal to keep that pressure off me.

This game is more than just hot-joins, which is where a lot of people continue to make complaints about. On a competitive level, it’s more then just how good you are at your class. It’s about your positioning, your awareness, and your teamwork.

I know my necro is susceptible to burst classes, so my job is to peel for him and put pressure on those people that are on him. My warrior has to continously wait for the opportunity to come in and utilize his frenzy and 100b. He has to be aware of what the other team has on cooldown and what other classes might be waiting for him to strike.

I think people keep making the mistake of thinking that this game is supposed to be balanced around 1v1s. This game IS about teamwork, the composition of your team, and the synergy between them. When you make a spec, quit thinking about how your going to do solo, but think about how it will synergize with your team and what you can bring to the table.

Anyways, end rant. Stay classy!

<3 Qt Vain

Lets face it. Anet failed hard to bring balance or build diversity. They catered to the casual player, so now their dreams of having an e-sport like pvp will crumble. And the funny thing is, they cant even fix it. It would require a complete rework of how things work.

Let ME tell YOU why burst is hillariously underpowered. In GW 1 it was viable, as was pressure builds. Here EVERYONE has 2 invunerability rolls. That means you have to be able to burst at least 3 times if you want to bring down anyone competent. And im talking about GW 1 ranger spike kind of burst.

After 600 hours, wich is not a lot compared to many other people, i feel like the game has no depth. The horrendous balance in the game. Pve and PvP stats beeing completely different should already say a lot when it comes to competence of the balancing team. And yes that is a jab at the competence of A-net employees. PvP just does not work as its now. It might be fun for a couple of casual players, but the more serious players will mostly evade it.

Im going to throw out a wild prediction. Im going to predict that what slowly killed GW 1 pvp, has already killed GW 2 pvp. Horrible balance. GW 1 pvp used to be lots of viable builds and counterbuilds, till it all boiled down to fotm builds and balanced setup. In GW 2 its already happening. If you are not one of the currently strong classess you better get out of pvp or you will be gimping your team. There is no counterplay as well. Someone throws up a 4 second block… well gee, what can i do? Just watch him for 4 seconds? Could there really be no skill, or idea of how to counter such things… like i dunno IRRESISTABLE BLOW.

I seriously hope that the team that designed GW 2 for the most part, have never played GW 1. That would at least make me sleep at night knowing its not all the fault of the original GW devs.

Whoa, I was expecting a lot of your to disagree with me, but it seems like it’s not just me who feels this way about combat.

@DevilsGlare

This thread isn’t so much about balance or counters as it is about functionality and feel with respect to the game type. As it is, burst is like bringing a gun to a fist fight. Assuming you can consistently counter the gun, the whole ordeal wouldn’t feel like a fist fight, now would it? This is the tricky thing about designing combat because developers need to take in far more than simple weakness and counter into consideration. The number of complaints about burst only show how poorly it is currently implemented on a level other than simple balance and counterbalance.

The thing is, it’s way too easy to initiate a burst on your own, and I think that’s the main problem. You really don’t need initiator, or something like that, to lock your opponent for your burst to land. ANet wanted to create a team based game, but I think they failed to do so, simply because you are mostly playing on your own, even in high competitive environment, with some team utility, but not nearly as much as there should be. I just gave you an example. Burst builds can easily initiate and land their damage on their own, which shouldn’t be the case, as it makes them a lot more effective than other builds, especially in capture and hold type of pvp mode. However, this is a core game problem, at least IMO, so it won’t get changed easily, and probably the only way of working through it is nerfing the damage. Just like someone said, you should work like a team to land a burst.

I think a better comparison would be bringing an unloaded gun to a fist fight.

You know the burst is there, he has the bullets in his pocket, and he’s about to load up. It’s now your job to slap the bullets out of his hands, or take proper cover.

DevilsGlare.7658:

I think a better comparison would be bringing an unloaded gun to a fist fight.

You know the burst is there, he has the bullets in his pocket, and he’s about to load up. It’s now your job to slap the bullets out of his hands, or take proper cover.

Right but it still wouldn’t be a fist fight. Catch my drift?

Well, now all you got to do is take the knife out of your pocket.

Either way, all the burst in this game can be mitigated. Just make sure you pack up with the proper utilities and traits that you need to make yourself successful. This game is visually oriented, and about watching the animations.

I’ll give you a prime example. My team runs a 4 man “burst” comp. Only way it can be successful against another team is if we properly CC chain targets, and ensure we’re aware of when the targets have certain utilities and defensives on cooldown. Team PZ made a counter comp to ours, they ran medium damage/medium survivability comp that specialized in out-lasting our burst with player skill and defensive traits/utilities. They beat us down for 2 weeks straight before we realized our high damage/low survivability comp needed to be changed against them.

So, the argument that the burst is too much in this game just isn’t valid.

Again, you’re not getting it.

Okay how’s this for a better example. Consider Pro boxing. Why is punching the opponent in the groin not acceptable even though the move can be countered?

Alright TwoBit, I have literally responded to every one of your 3 statements up there. I have given you the tools to make it so that your successful in this game when your coming up against bursts classes. Personally, I have no issues with burst. Doesn’t bug me, and I know how to counter it. You ask 99% of the other top players at their profession and they’re going to respond in the same manner. “Oh yah man, backstab thieves hurt… But this is how you counter it.”

Know your class, gain knowledge of others, and reap the rewards.

Take it from a Mesmer-holic. I’d be fine with the role of burst being less of a ‘be-all/end-all,’ I specc’d for condi dmg for a reason. Unfortunately, there is an arguable bias towards burst specifications. Add to this, the current LoS wackiness on phantasms/downgrading of Illusionary Membrane, and it seems a lot like ANet’s wanting to shove burst play on everyone. Which, IMO, is counter to the idea of ‘playing a class your way.’

Ah, well – I still manage … frigging love confusion-bombing.

DevilsGlare.7658:

Alright TwoBit, I have literally responded to every one of your 3 statements up there. I have given you the tools to make it so that your successful in this game when your coming up against bursts classes. Personally, I have no issues with burst. Doesn’t bug me, and I know how to counter it. You ask 99% of the other top players at their profession and they’re going to respond in the same manner. “Oh yah man, backstab thieves hurt… But this is how you counter it.”

Know your class, gain knowledge of others, and reap the rewards.

1) We are not talking about viability or balance in this topic.
2) We are talking about how GW2 is an action game and how burst in GW2 circumvent common restrictions and mechanics in action games and how it detracts from the feel and experiene.
3) Reading comprehension. Use it or lose it.

Agree with op, too much burst in this game atm.

I will rewrite my previous statement, being that it breaks certain rules. So, I will continue on to help YOU understand where I’m coming from by reading your original post.

“1) Burst in GW2 is often treated as an easy hit. A general rule in action games is that the easier it is for an attack to land, the weaker it should be. This is because easy hits are there to pressure opponents into creating openings for larger hits, not gib them if one manages to hit.

2) Burst is not projected well enough. In action games, attack telegraphing not only explains what kind of move is being used, but also the strength. If it’s strong it needs to look strong. An example of this is the thief’s BS stealth combo. It’s baffling, logically, for players to lose half or more their health in seconds of attacks they can barely see (with the first one being a hit they can’t see at all).

3) In action games, you should never allow players to initiate with huge amounts of burst. Burst should come from punishing openings caused by poor predictions, not by being able to land the first punch due to the player being mentally unprepared. This causes fights to be anticlimactic because of the lack of buildup and the initial punishment for not reacting in time makes the rest of the fight feel frustrating."

My response to that:

1. Not one single class will one shot any profession in this game. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you mitigate that first burst, you now force the other player on the defensive. If you don’t mitigate it, well then you get “gibbed.” Mesmers: Dodge the shatters. Ele’s: Dodge burning speed and Updraft. Thieves: Pop defensives quick to mitigate that first burst and watch them shortbow for their lives. Warriors: Dodge 100bs.

2. Mesmers: You can SEE the clones SPRINTING towards you. They previously are standing still, doing nothing… Then all of a sudden they’re sprinting towards you! Yah, a shatter might be coming. Get ready for it!
Ele’s: An attunement swap in itself is all you need to know what is about to come. Their burst comes from a medium paced animation that starts gliding forward with some fire trail left behind. You should definitely dodge that.
Warriors: A warrior goes from shield blocking, to switching to GS and is rapidly swinging through the air like a madman! Probably need to dodge that!
Thieves: Crap! They’ve got basilisk venom on and they saw me. He’s running towards me now and just went stealth… You might need to pop defensives.

3. Every one of these classes has to chain these bursts together. Thieves have to decide wether or not there is an opportunity to strike, and if the risk is greater than the reward. Thieves can’t take any cleave damage, they are naturally too squishy. A thief’s life depends on his positioning and if you are simply giving him that opportunity. Mesmers literally have to immobilize you or stun you first to properly get off a full burst. Otherwise, you might just so happen to dodge roll and neutralize that burst. Mesmers have to outplay their enemies in high level play if they plan on winning those fights. Otherwise they’ll just continue to get beat in the long run. Warriors, same with thieves… Is the risk greater than the reward? If so, does the person that I’m about to attack have any defensives up?

So, I responded, answered, and gave you tips to utilize for all those statements above. Players have learned how to mitigate burst, and how to defend against. If a top tier team can do it, then you can too!

<3 Qt Vain

qt do you play dd ele? from your post history looks like you do. dd ele is probably the best spec to deal with burst and has more oh kitten ability if you play poorly than any other.

@DevilsGlare: Your mistake in this thread is assuming that you understand, and stubbornly holding to that fact without re-analyzing your own reactions to the OP. Nothing in your most recent post that juxtaposes the OP’s points with your own indicates to me that you understand the point the OP was trying to make.

The problem is that I doubt you’ll ever see the OP’s reasoning, because you only think about the game within your bubble of “top-tier” 5v5 tPvP. The real crux of the issue, in my opinion, is that burst mechanics aren’t fun, specifically for the casual player.

A gamer these days will do everything in his power to blame the game for his/her shortcomings. That’s life. People by and large don’t like acknowledging their own failings so they can work on them and become better. Now let’s examine a D/D Ele’s churning earth. Huge AoE, large animation, several second cast time. The whole thing screams “Hey, you should be dodging when the growing circle hits the outer border”. If you get hit by it, it’s most likely entirely your fault. You could make an argument that the Ele can lightning flash in the middle of the animation, but you can still just dodge when it nears completion and evade the attack. In this case, it’s very obviously the player’s fault.

Who is complaining about Churning Earth?

Now let’s examine a Thief. You may or may not see the Thief stealth. It’s pretty elitist and ignorant to assume that you’ll have the awareness to always witness the Thief go into stealth while running toward you. If the Thief has enough stealth, and you’re in the area, he can walk up behind you and hit you for upwards of 10-14k. He does this while invisible, and presses one button. Sure, it won’t kill many professions, and a weak argument can be made that he has to move behind you, but there’s no real cue to the player that he’s about to die. He just dies.

Who is complaining about Backstab?

We get it. Burst isn’t a problem for people who sit in groups and coordinate their builds with one another. Burst isn’t a problem for people who have played for hundreds of hours and spec to survive it. I can’t remember the last time I had any problems with anyone bursting me.

That doesn’t mean the burst implementation itself isn’t a problem for the overall health of the game. If ANet wants to build a niche e-sport that caters to a small market, that’s perfectly fine. They don’t need to be on the level of LoL/DotA to be successful, especially if they pull in a devout following that creates entertainment for its market. However, I personally think they could do a much better job of creating an environment that’s more fun for the more casual fun-having player.

Zantetsuken.9051:

Blizzard learned this lesson with Cataclysm, where they reduced the healing power of healers, but giving other classes better self healing and better damage reduction in the form of the new and improved Resilience.

Wow pvp was a big failure and still is. You should’ve saw the arena forum last month… the WoW community was literaly making personal attack to Ghostcrawler, it wasn’t even funny. Someone even made an audio/video just to insult him because of how awful Wow pvp currently is.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@DevilsGlare: Your mistake in this thread is assuming that you understand, and stubbornly holding to that fact without re-analyzing your own reactions to the OP. Nothing in your most recent post that juxtaposes the OP’s points with your own indicates to me that you understand the point the OP was trying to make.

The problem is that I doubt you’ll ever see the OP’s reasoning, because you only think about the game within your bubble of “top-tier” 5v5 tPvP. The real crux of the issue, in my opinion, is that burst mechanics aren’t fun, specifically for the casual player.

A gamer these days will do everything in his power to blame the game for his/her shortcomings. That’s life. People by and large don’t like acknowledging their own failings so they can work on them and become better. Now let’s examine a D/D Ele’s churning earth. Huge AoE, large animation, several second cast time. The whole thing screams “Hey, you should be dodging when the growing circle hits the outer border”. If you get hit by it, it’s most likely entirely your fault. You could make an argument that the Ele can lightning flash in the middle of the animation, but you can still just dodge when it nears completion and evade the attack. In this case, it’s very obviously the player’s fault.

Who is complaining about Churning Earth?

Now let’s examine a Thief. You may or may not see the Thief stealth. It’s pretty elitist and ignorant to assume that you’ll have the awareness to always witness the Thief go into stealth while running toward you. If the Thief has enough stealth, and you’re in the area, he can walk up behind you and hit you for upwards of 10-14k. He does this while invisible, and presses one button. Sure, it won’t kill many professions, and a weak argument can be made that he has to move behind you, but there’s no real cue to the player that he’s about to die. He just dies.

Who is complaining about Backstab?

We get it. Burst isn’t a problem for people who sit in groups and coordinate their builds with one another. Burst isn’t a problem for people who have played for hundreds of hours and spec to survive it. I can’t remember the last time I had any problems with anyone bursting me.

That doesn’t mean the burst implementation itself isn’t a problem for the overall health of the game. If ANet wants to build a niche e-sport that caters to a small market, that’s perfectly fine. They don’t need to be on the level of LoL/DotA to be successful, especially if they pull in a devout following that creates entertainment for its market. However, I personally think they could do a much better job of creating an environment that’s more fun for the more casual fun-having player.

Please.

Burst is vital to the game health, the problem is that BURST IS TOO HIGH.

Some classes can literally sendo you from 100% to 0% with a single burst , if you don’t have your defensive UP ( for istance, in foefire , 2nd match, thief role is exactly to lurk around the mid spamming AoE , taking count of a target defensive CDs and burst him as soon as he has no more of them, without a chance to react), and this is wrong.

Even worse, some classes can do it istantly , with no chance to react ( mesmers with MI+MW when his opponent is in melee, a thief lurking in stealth doing the BV+ backstab+ mug, basically a one shot of about 14k damage, if not more), as long as they know how to do it.

The reason why burst fails in GW 2 is its numbers : too high bursts lead to counter building into high resilience bunkers, and bunkering in this game is even stronger than burst.

This leads to anti-climatic fights, and this is one of the main reasons why tPvP is a saddening desert.

Fortunately they’re going to tone donw burst and bunkering, but my main is a thief, and i really have no idea what i will do with him after the burst nerf, no matter what they do to it, because the thief can do nothing else in current meta.

Please, if you reference my post/respond to me, be sure to actually read the content before acting like you disagree. It’s confusing/embarrassing when you act like you disagree, only to elaborate with points that agree with what I posted.

The way they implemented burst could use work to benefit the overall health of the game. They could band-aid the problem by toning the numbers down, but in my opinion, that’s only a band-aid.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Please, if you reference my post/respond to me, be sure to actually read the content before acting like you disagree. It’s confusing/embarrassing when you act like you disagree, only to elaborate with points that agree with what I posted.

The way they implemented burst could use work to benefit the overall health of the game. They could band-aid the problem by toning the numbers down, but in my opinion, that’s only a band-aid.

Note what you’ve written

That doesn’t mean the burst implementation itself isn’t a problem for the overall health of the game. If ANet wants to build a niche e-sport that caters to a small market, that’s perfectly fine. They don’t need to be on the level of LoL/DotA to be successful, especially if they pull in a devout following that creates entertainment for its market. However, I personally think they could do a much better job of creating an environment that’s more fun for the more casual fun-having player.

I disagree.

Imo, the burst implementation is not wrong, if not in some extreme cases ( backstab + mug and mesmer MI+MW), the problem is those numbers.

The issue is that whole classes, like the thief and the warrior, are totally balanced around their maximum damage ( lulz at aNet crap balance phylosophy), and their survival/support tools are mediocre at best, making IMPOSSIBLE to create a balanced build with a chance of being competitive.

Lol, they even nerfed to dust the only decent thief build requiring real skill to be played, S/D, polarizing thieves even more into D/D burst, like if they want it to be the only way for a thief to be played.

My point is that burst fails in GW2 in the same moment you start balancing professions arounf that burst, because you need to make that burst very powerful in order to keep that profession viable.

Not the implementation itself, but the idea behind it.

I’m all in favour to tone down burst, but after that, what will a thief be able to accomplish ?

Think about it for a moment.

to make the game less burst oriented, there is also the problem with self healing.

I can see people who are just semi tanky fight each other for an hour and not gain any form of upper hand. People can get back up to full health if you can’t kill them in the 30 second time frame and by then, their block, heal and damage mitigation skills are off cd.

Basically, every 30 seconds or so, people can give up a few inch of ground to reset the battle. It gets to the point where 2 guardians would fight for like 5 mins and give up and both just accept they can’t win or else other teammates come and add sufficient burst at the right time to swing the fight.

Anet would need to nerf self heal in PvP if they nerf the bursts in the game right now.

Maybe they can implement something like Dota, you have very little self heal, there really isn’t many team heal and all you do to heal is teleport back to the spawn. Since the game is objective bases, this does make sense.

A thoughtful post on the GW2 forums?

MADNESS

If there is a problem with burst, then there is a problem with bunkering. For burst to be reduced, the amount of defenses some classes have, must be brought back in line. The amount of punishment some classes take make having extremely high damage output builds a necessity.

Someone mentioned self healing was the problem, but I think it’s actually hard damage mitigation like protection, invulnerable skills and blocks that make the more durable classes so hard to kill.

Oddly enough I think giving classes a little more healing with less protection would make for more interesting fights if the burst were to be toned down.

If they made it so you could actually run a support build instead of self sufficient burst and bunker classes, you might actually start to see some sort of teamwork rather than a team of 5 strong individuals.

The thing that made GW1 work was that you needed more than 1 person usually to kill a member of the opposing team. Think about shockaxe warriors. They didn’t have enough damage to put someone away by themselves, but they initiated the damage with shock and they finished the damage with eviscerate. If a warrior misplaced his burst or didn’t time it well with his team, no one died.

I feel like the same should really apply here. With Warriors, Thieves, Mesmers, and (sometimes) elementalists all doing relatively insane damage, group fights become extremely messy and it all boils down to who can res better which is a silly thing to determine the outcome of a fight.

If they want a somewhat balanced game, they do need to tone down burst, but they also need to tone down bunkering as well. Then they need to make group support abilities better, and maybe then when it’s no longer a mad scramble to inflict damage or survive you might start to see this game for what it could be.

Enough with all of this self sufficient crap, there needs to be better group support options and less “selfish” burst/bunkering.

@Devilsglare

The problem as I see it, is that it leaves various classes in the lurch while narrowing choice dramatically.

Right now it is largely a game of burst vs defense. There is little room for anything else. This leaves me, in a game which touted options, with very little options in my build… less options than I typically have in other MMO pvp systems.

DevilsGlare.7658:

With the exception to thieves, I disagree fully. While the skills themselves your referring to may be “quick” they are capable of being avoided.

Mesmers: Big bursts are usually going to be initiated by a root/stun. You can see that root/stun coming by knowing the mechanics of mesmers and what the buff looks like when they utilize that skill. Dodging that skill allows you to mitigate that damage.

Also, playing away from a mesmer when you know he has mind wrack up is needed. If you see a ton of clones running towards, simply dodge roll INTO the clones. It forces the clones to blow up and in return you’ll mitigate all of that damage, or may only eat one shatter. Take note that mind wrack is on a 9 second cooldown, so you can use that to your advantage when fighting mesmers.

Warriors: If the warriors pops frenzy + 100b…. Dodge roll. If he stuns you…. Use a break stun. 100b does alot of damage, yes, but you shouldn’t be eating more than a few hits from it if you react quick enough. Dodge rolling a whirlwind, or eviscerate can literally turn that fight around for you in moments.

Most of the Warriors attacks are quick, that is understood… But all of the damage or attacks they do can be avoided. For example, after 90% of warriors pop 100b + frenzy, they WILL use whirlwind after 100b is done. Create distance, get ready to dodge roll.

Thieves: Truly, I have no issues with thieves. I personally believe their burst is quite strong, so I will agree with that, but I do not believe that you can’t mitigate their incoming damage. If I see a thief with basilisk venom on I either A) Put tons of pressure on that thief and make him switch to shortbow to waste that stun or Play super defensive and get ready to mist form, port, pop shocking aura. Whatever is at my disposal to keep that pressure off me.

This game is more than just hot-joins, which is where a lot of people continue to make complaints about. On a competitive level, it’s more then just how good you are at your class. It’s about your positioning, your awareness, and your teamwork.

I know my necro is susceptible to burst classes, so my job is to peel for him and put pressure on those people that are on him. My warrior has to continously wait for the opportunity to come in and utilize his frenzy and 100b. He has to be aware of what the other team has on cooldown and what other classes might be waiting for him to strike.

I think people keep making the mistake of thinking that this game is supposed to be balanced around 1v1s. This game IS about teamwork, the composition of your team, and the synergy between them. When you make a spec, quit thinking about how your going to do solo, but think about how it will synergize with your team and what you can bring to the table.

Anyways, end rant. Stay classy!

<3 Qt Vain

this would make sense in 1v1 fights where ur not on cd’s and have endurance. but gw is not about 1v1 in group fights u cant watch everyones animation and u may dodge roll to avoid 1 atk just to be rooted/stunned into another then bursted down by the original persons atk u avoided. in all aspects u can and will be burst down in pvp since spvp/wv3 is not 1v1 fights constantly…

@Angriff
Agreed. If they toned down burst and bunker I think 1v1 and 2v2 would end up being more well-paced and be more reliant on quick reactionary strategies rather and a bit less on reflex. In larger fights burst can still exists through coordination between multiple members.

@Esrever
I wasn’t going to bring it up in this topic, but not because of their hand in burst combos. The issue with them, I think, is that the current ease of access to activation of locking abilities, such as immobilize, stun, blowouts, etc, work against combat type. In action games you have a greater sense of control of your character, so when you lose that control at it should feel as though it’s your fault for it happening in the first place rather than it being your fault for not cleansing it after the fact.

I think a way they could redesign those skills is by giving them a lesser effect, but allow them to punish certain actions with their full effect. For instance current abilities that have stun effect will only daze inactive enemies, but will stun when they interrupt an channel. Immobilize skills will only cripple enemies standing still, but immobilize enemies that run. That way these skills are slightly harder to use to lock players, but when these players are locked it’s clear to them that it’s their fault that it happens. Furthermore, by having to use these skills more tactically, effective use of these abilities will clearly divide players of different skill levels. They can counterbalance the decrease in effectiveness of these skills by reducing the amount of cleanses and stunbreakers available etc.

Anyway, I’m getting off topic.

I agree with the OP about the point he made about burst. Untelegraphed, near-instant burst without build-up isn’t fun for anyone.

But asking an MMO to have the depth and counter-play opportunities of a fighting game is a tall order. Only few MMOs have managed to create such moments and it’s even harder to pull off considering the 15-25 ability limitation most professions have.

I know people here hate WoW but in some regards it really did come close to having such combat depth.

As an example, Duel between Warriors and Frost-Mages were and excellent example of counter-play. Mages needed to constantly chose between using their Frotnovas as a root/snare or as a setup for Shatter combos while Warriors were always trying to keep up the pressure using their mobility tools and CC breakers.

Dueling in WoW was incredibly fun and had a lot of depth to it as you wre constantly trying to bait cooldowns and counter people’s moves.

But it took years of iteration to get there.

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree with the OP about the point he made about burst. Untelegraphed, near-instant burst without build-up isn’t fun for anyone.

But asking an MMO to have the depth and counter-play opportunities of a fighting game is a tall order. Only few MMOs have managed to create such moments and it’s even harder to pull off considering the 15-25 ability limitation most professions have.

I know people here hate WoW but in some regards it really did come close to having such combat depth.

As an example, Duel between Warriors and Frost-Mages were and excellent example of counter-play. Mages needed to constantly chose between using their Frotnovas as a root/snare or as a setup for Shatter combos while Warriors were always trying to keep up the pressure using their mobility tools and CC breakers.

Dueling in WoW was incredibly fun and had a lot of depth to it as you wre constantly trying to bait cooldowns and counter people’s moves.

But it took years of iteration to get there.

Wow pvp is balanced around 3v3, not duels. Also, I don’t really know what you meant with warrior-frost mage being an excellent example of counter play? Frost mage completly hard counter warrior the moment the duel starts.. In fact, frost mage pretty much dominated in duels for a really long time which is why I think your comparision is irrelevant.

Please note that I didn’t post this because I hate the game. Here’s the proof: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kiljaeden/Poplolita/simple

@Dee Jay
It’s definitely a tall order, but for ANet to reach their goal of creating an eSport they’ve already got to set their own standards high. And it doesn’t need the combat depth of a fighting game; It just needs to be mindful of its own combat type especially if it’s for sake of new players. Retaining players comes with depth of team strategy, and that already exists to a degree in high level pvp.

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree with the OP about the point he made about burst. Untelegraphed, near-instant burst without build-up isn’t fun for anyone.

But asking an MMO to have the depth and counter-play opportunities of a fighting game is a tall order. Only few MMOs have managed to create such moments and it’s even harder to pull off considering the 15-25 ability limitation most professions have.

I know people here hate WoW but in some regards it really did come close to having such combat depth.

As an example, Duel between Warriors and Frost-Mages were and excellent example of counter-play. Mages needed to constantly chose between using their Frotnovas as a root/snare or as a setup for Shatter combos while Warriors were always trying to keep up the pressure using their mobility tools and CC breakers.

Dueling in WoW was incredibly fun and had a lot of depth to it as you wre constantly trying to bait cooldowns and counter people’s moves.

But it took years of iteration to get there.

WoW has the worst 1vs1 balance in history.

The moment you saw the first spell of your opponent, o some time even the first moment you saw its armor, you already knew if he would be a counter to you or not.

Most probably WoW fights had more depth in duels, but in arenas/BGs all this depth totally vanishes, and it only a focus and chain spikes fest .

GW2, if we could remove the polar opposite ( bunker and burst) is already pretty well balanced around 1vs1 for most classes .

As a thief/necro ( my mains) /mesmer ( my alt) i know i can, with the proper build, destroy any other class 1vs1.

Hell, with the necro i have a CHANCE ( according to who plays better) to win any 1vs1 even with the standard 30-30-10 AoE bomb build.

It’s all up to who plays better.

This game is totally skill based: well designed classes (mesmer-ele-guardian-engeneer and, to a certain extent and before the nerfs-thief or , partially, the necro) can all afford 1vsX fights and come over the top if they absolutely outplay their opponents.

This is not valid for WoW, where certain classes totally countered other ones, and where 1vsX was a privilege granted only to certain classes.

And since this game is also pretty balanced for 1vs1 and overall small fight scales, bunkering and bursting are even more constraining the game from unleashing its true potential.

vain this thread isn’t about burst being uncounterable, it’s about burst being implemented in a way that isn’t fun. particularly for new players, but if GW2 followed the guidelines in the OP the game would probably be more fun at all skill levels.

it’s just intuitively logical that big, potentially game-ending hits should require some degree of buildup before they become available/practical to land. as a general rule the bigger the hit the more cast time/setup the skill should have. the game would just feel better if this were true more often.

Mrbig.8019:

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree with the OP about the point he made about burst. Untelegraphed, near-instant burst without build-up isn’t fun for anyone.

But asking an MMO to have the depth and counter-play opportunities of a fighting game is a tall order. Only few MMOs have managed to create such moments and it’s even harder to pull off considering the 15-25 ability limitation most professions have.

I know people here hate WoW but in some regards it really did come close to having such combat depth.

As an example, Duel between Warriors and Frost-Mages were and excellent example of counter-play. Mages needed to constantly chose between using their Frotnovas as a root/snare or as a setup for Shatter combos while Warriors were always trying to keep up the pressure using their mobility tools and CC breakers.

Dueling in WoW was incredibly fun and had a lot of depth to it as you wre constantly trying to bait cooldowns and counter people’s moves.

But it took years of iteration to get there.

WoW has the worst 1vs1 balance in history.

The moment you saw the first spell of your opponent, o some time even the first moment you saw its armor, you already knew if he would be a counter to you or not.

Most probably WoW fights had more depth in duels, but in arenas/BGs all this depth totally vanishes, and it only a focus and chain spikes fest .

GW2, if we could remove the polar opposite ( bunker and burst) is already pretty well balanced around 1vs1 for most classes .

As a thief/necro ( my mains) /mesmer ( my alt) i know i can, with the proper build, destroy any other class 1vs1.

Hell, with the necro i have a CHANCE ( according to who plays better) to win any 1vs1 even with the standard 30-30-10 AoE bomb build.

It’s all up to who plays better.

This game is totally skill based: well designed classes (mesmer-ele-guardian-engeneer and, to a certain extent and before the nerfs-thief or , partially, the necro) can all afford 1vsX fights and come over the top if they absolutely outplay their opponents.

This is not valid for WoW, where certain classes totally countered other ones, and where 1vsX was a privilege granted only to certain classes.

And since this game is also pretty balanced for 1vs1 and overall small fight scales, bunkering and bursting are even more constraining the game from unleashing its true potential.

The thing is 1v1 mostly brings a lack of synergy between classes. What a liked in other mmo is that X class weaknesses is usually covered by Y class which usually creates interesting team compositions. For example, in cataclysm Wow, frost mages had amazing control, and burst, but lacked substained damage, surviviability and a dispel protection, aff lock covered mage’s weakness with his dispel protection, unstable affliction, and top notch spread damage while having no burst at all.

However, in guild wars 2, a guardian doesn’t need anyone to be good at what he’s doing: it does its job so amazingly well… it’s not even funny. The mesmer is the ninja capture points par excellence, it doesn’t need a support whatsoever to be good at what he’s doing with the amount of control, burst, mobility, spread damage and self heal he has.

There is a reason why the only two balanced professions are necro and ranger; with the right team composition and strat, they perform really well. But at the end, we pretty much agree with eachother, some professions need some work here and there to bring Pvp in another level.

I couldn’t agree more. I love the game’s action-oriented combat, but I think it needs some attention. I think the OP’s points are thoughtful and well-stated.

Burst is, of course, appropriate and very necessary. But, as it’s a more action-oriented game, it needs to have its place in combat. 10k+ damage with quickness in 1-2 seconds with no visual cue or lead-up isn’t the appropriate place.

Comparing a MMO game to some japanese fighter game is just lol… I hope you know that many of those people have serious creativity problems.

They’re completely different, and Anet did want to get everyone on the same level. Meaning: if one player is good and can protect himself against burst all day long, but other player isn’t, it would lead to unfair advantage.
Also: bursts would become useless after a while as everyone would learn to play, and it would just be bunkers all the way.