Why can't ANET balance for 1v1?

Why can't ANET balance for 1v1?

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Posted by: Dr Patrik.3642

Dr Patrik.3642

As I hope most can agree, balance shows most in small fights like 1v1, 1v2, and 2v2. Therefore, why can’t they make those fights be more balanced rather than trying to balance large scale fights where people just spam their skills like in WvW zergs or PvE events? If they do this the large mid fights might not have all classes be the same effectiveness level, but that would just make more distinct roles so each class feels unique in what it does. It just doesn’t make sense to screw over the balance of the entire PvP game mode just so stuff like raiding and dungeons are a certain way. Which by the way are game modes which STILL don’t have all classes being used. Now I know this sounds like a PvP player just wanting balance priority, and in a way it is, but the main reason is that it is players fighting each other rather than fighting an NPC. PvE bosses can be made so favor specific classes so every class has a boss it does well against, which will make for class diversity. That can’t be done in PvP because it is only players, and therefore it NEEDS priority.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Because you play in teams in sPvP and what might be balanced 1v1 may not be when there’s more players.

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Posted by: Rolisteel.1375

Rolisteel.1375

Because you play in teams in sPvP and what might be balanced 1v1 may not be when there’s more players.

1v1 imbalanced
5v5 imbalanced
solo q class comps can be imbalanced

Never played a MMORPG PvP game before gw2 where i don’t have any chance vs some classes. because their class mechanic have more dps and survivability or simply better outlasting mechanic.

Thats where we sit now.

(edited by Rolisteel.1375)

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Posted by: Dr Patrik.3642

Dr Patrik.3642

Because you play in teams in sPvP and what might be balanced 1v1 may not be when there’s more players.

Did you even read the post? I specifically addressed this. Even if there are some classes that are better in team fights and others not so much (which btw already exists), the classes that aren’t as good in team fights can be going after the other two points. Fights on those points will be guess what, small scale fights which I’m proposing they balance for. So if you at least have a first grade education you will know that 2>1 and that they can win with the other two points. Therefore, it is fine if not all 5v5 large scale fight match up is not balanced (which they already aren’t), because then the team with the best rotations will win.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Because you play in teams in sPvP and what might be balanced 1v1 may not be when there’s more players.

1v1 imbalanced
5v5 imbalanced
solo q class comps can be imbalanced

Thats where we sit now.

The imbalance tends to be when you stack certain classes and the other team doesn’t attempt to counter them.

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

The answer is pure laziness. At this rate Gw2 esports is going to face the same end as Gw1 esports.

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

The answer is pure laziness. At this rate Gw2 esports is going to face the same end as Gw1 esports.

How would you balance all of the classes? It’s one thing to criticize but can you some up with a solution? If not, maybe it’s not as easy as you think and they’re not being “lazy” as you put it.

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

I would use polls and statistics something anet has forbidden on the forums and refused to use in game. After that, it is pure common sense. Devs need to use the first two for balancing but they don’t. I have my own opinions on what needs fixing and my post history makes that clear every patch. But polls and performance/preference statistics are much more unbiased and reliable than my personal opinion.

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

To illustrate, I will explain for a simple situation that is easily (and accurately) extrapolated:

One simple case: take a class, like elementalist, that gives off lots of buffs and does mostly AoE damage, and a class like base ranger, which does mostly single-target damage and doesn’t share nearly as many buffs with team-mates. If these two classes are the only ones available, and they can 1v1 equally effectively, why would you ever take the ranger? It has no advantages in 1v1’s, and as more people get into the fight the ele gets significantly better. You could say “well, give the ranger more mobility” but that doesn’t balance the ledger, as mobility is most important on dps classes (who can finish fights quickly), and you will still always be optimal to always take ele.

If you want to have a robust metagame with many viable builds, you have to balance them on a whole. Look at the ele vs. ranger example: if you make rangers slightly better in 1v1’s, but the ele slightly better in teamfights, or the ranger better vs. burst and the ele stronger vs. condis, you are making two competing options for a single role (a skirmisher/bruiser for instance). With this choice, either will be optimal with different team-comps and rotational strategies – there is no clear-cut “always better.” If you make them equally strong in 1v1’s, but one is better in larger fights, then it is ALWAYS better and you never take the worse one.

You need to actually embrace the concept of “roles and holes”: every spec has some things they are very good at, and some glaring weakness that they can’t fulfill on their own.

The problem with HoT, is it creates too many specs that have lots of strengths and very minor weaknesses, so there isn’t really a ton of variety. It also angles many elite specs in one direction, and we all know elite specs are SO MUCH STRONGER than others, that this just pigeon-holes that class into whatever build can use that elite.

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Posted by: Obindo.6802

Obindo.6802

The game is rock paper scissors. Play around it.

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Posted by: Hooglese.4860

Hooglese.4860

Because the game is not designed for duels, it’s designed for 5v5s. If it was designed around dueling we wouldn’t have conquest. We’d have team death match.

PvP
revenant – Hoogles Von Boogles
Mesmer – hoogelz

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Posted by: Sunshine.5014

Sunshine.5014

Because the game is not designed for duels, it’s designed for 5v5s. If it was designed around dueling we wouldn’t have conquest. We’d have team death match.

This myth about “it’s designed for 5v5” still persists.

95% of all the fights in this game are 3v3, 2v2, and 1v1. Back cap and 1v1 on point happens a lot more frequently than 10 noobs clashing in mid disregarding the other 2 points and map objectives.

Please stop repeating that myth.

Gray out the HP for future condition damage
Already quit PvP. Just log in here and there to troll.

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

Yo, the game being designed around 5v5 doesn’t mean some classes can’t 1v1 effectively.

In fact with a game like gw2 where there is a lot of flexibility in how you spec your character, even a good solo build is bound to happen just by accident. Coincidentally the flexibility in designing your class’s layout is what makes balance even more difficult than a game where skills and traits are pre set and cannot be customized.

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

They need to simplify their balancing. Go with 3 categories of abilities when balancing each class.

1. Team Fighting
2. 1v1
3. Mobility

Each class should be able to do 2/3, but not 3/3. Being able to do all things in game creates classes that are OP, and in need of nerfing.

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Posted by: Hooglese.4860

Hooglese.4860

Because the game is not designed for duels, it’s designed for 5v5s. If it was designed around dueling we wouldn’t have conquest. We’d have team death match.

This myth about “it’s designed for 5v5” still persists.

95% of all the fights in this game are 3v3, 2v2, and 1v1. Back cap and 1v1 on point happens a lot more frequently than 10 noobs clashing in mid disregarding the other 2 points and map objectives.

Please stop repeating that myth.

I’m not referring to that, no one ever is referring to that, they’re referring to the fact you have 4 other teammates and you’re trying to win via caps (not kills). What I and probably everyone else thats said this is that dueling is not the deciding factor for balance. There’s a lot more than that

PvP
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Mesmer – hoogelz

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Posted by: GinghamLion.3614

GinghamLion.3614

Because the game is not designed for duels, it’s designed for 5v5s. If it was designed around dueling we wouldn’t have conquest. We’d have team death match.

This myth about “it’s designed for 5v5” still persists.

95% of all the fights in this game are 3v3, 2v2, and 1v1. Back cap and 1v1 on point happens a lot more frequently than 10 noobs clashing in mid disregarding the other 2 points and map objectives.

Please stop repeating that myth.

Woah woah woah. We don’t ever mean 5v5 is 10 people running headfirst right into each other. When we say “balanced around 5v5” we specifically mean 5v5 conquest mode. Honestly as far as MMO PVP goes, GW2 is extremely balanced. You have balance around 1v1 viability, defensive capabilities, ability to survive under multi-target pressure, mobility, objective control. Everything. All of this goes into “balancing for 5v5” and if the game was balanced for 1v1 Duels, I think we would see a LOT more class stacking in conquest.

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Posted by: JayAction.9056

JayAction.9056

The game is pretty balanced 1v1 with the exception of a few outliers. In most scenarios, skill can overcome, or build tweaks can make up for disadvantages. If you don’t agree, I can almost guarantee you’re not very good.

That being said you are always going to have a class that’s best at something and a class that’s the worst.

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Posted by: choovanski.5462

choovanski.5462

To illustrate, I will explain for a simple situation that is easily (and accurately) extrapolated:

One simple case: take a class, like elementalist, that gives off lots of buffs and does mostly AoE damage, and a class like base ranger, which does mostly single-target damage and doesn’t share nearly as many buffs with team-mates. If these two classes are the only ones available, and they can 1v1 equally effectively, why would you ever take the ranger? It has no advantages in 1v1’s, and as more people get into the fight the ele gets significantly better. You could say “well, give the ranger more mobility” but that doesn’t balance the ledger, as mobility is most important on dps classes (who can finish fights quickly), and you will still always be optimal to always take ele.

If you want to have a robust metagame with many viable builds, you have to balance them on a whole. Look at the ele vs. ranger example: if you make rangers slightly better in 1v1’s, but the ele slightly better in teamfights, or the ranger better vs. burst and the ele stronger vs. condis, you are making two competing options for a single role (a skirmisher/bruiser for instance). With this choice, either will be optimal with different team-comps and rotational strategies – there is no clear-cut “always better.” If you make them equally strong in 1v1’s, but one is better in larger fights, then it is ALWAYS better and you never take the worse one.

You need to actually embrace the concept of “roles and holes”: every spec has some things they are very good at, and some glaring weakness that they can’t fulfill on their own.

The problem with HoT, is it creates too many specs that have lots of strengths and very minor weaknesses, so there isn’t really a ton of variety. It also angles many elite specs in one direction, and we all know elite specs are SO MUCH STRONGER than others, that this just pigeon-holes that class into whatever build can use that elite.

^ this

my favourite build in gw2 was hammer warrior with shouts. it was useless in 1v1 and could only kill bad players on squishy builds, but was an absolute god in team fights. i was into playing the role.

now anet have got into removing support and tank builds, and forcing all classes to play bruiser, so the game is stale af.

. Engi & Warr . Beta > 2017 Death of PvP
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria

(edited by choovanski.5462)

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

Wrong. we have a unique situation where the advanced players have learned rotations and combos so they just finger roll. The new players actually try to actively dodge things and time their attacks without a rotations and die trying. That is not balance. even though for extremely advanced players DD thief, DH, Chrono, Scrapper, Druid, Warrior, Rev have one main top tier build that is balanced. Necro of course is only good in 3 vs 3+ basically the undead punching bag of pvp. I would use SSBM as a ninento example of the epitome of extreme focused skill. Gw2 actually used to be like that and better with more variety and in 3D, especially on thief. dodging and blocking used to matter more than rotations. Now it is more like WoW.

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

The game is pretty balanced 1v1 with the exception of a few outliers. In most scenarios, skill can overcome, or build tweaks can make up for disadvantages. If you don’t agree, I can almost guarantee you’re not very good.

That being said you are always going to have a class that’s best at something and a class that’s the worst.

No its not even close to being balanced.

Every class should have a 50/50 chance vs every other class but that’s not the case. Too many hard counters in this game

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

No its not even close to being balanced.

Every class should have a 50/50 chance vs every other class but that’s not the case. Too many hard counters in this game

You’re using a fighting game’s definition of balance as opposed to a team based game’s definition of balance.

I think you’re just playing the wrong game. Go play super smash brothers or marvel vs capcom instead. Beware though, there are top picks there too.

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Posted by: JayAction.9056

JayAction.9056

The game is pretty balanced 1v1 with the exception of a few outliers. In most scenarios, skill can overcome, or build tweaks can make up for disadvantages. If you don’t agree, I can almost guarantee you’re not very good.

That being said you are always going to have a class that’s best at something and a class that’s the worst.

No its not even close to being balanced.

Every class should have a 50/50 chance vs every other class but that’s not the case. Too many hard counters in this game

If every class had a 50/50 chance to win vs every class. The gameplay would be boring. Certain class mechanics are always going to be better than other class mechanics for any scenario.

That’s not even a reasonable request unless you want every class to have the same skills.

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Posted by: gavyne.6847

gavyne.6847

You don’t balance PvP for 1v1’s, nobody does that, not Anet, not Blizzard, not zenimax. Blizzard is known to balance WoW’s PvP based on 2v2 & 3v3 arenas, they don’t balance based on 1v1 duels or large scale BG’s.

GW2 is a bit different mainly because sPvP devs don’t have access to balance class skills separately, they only have access to change amulets/sigils/runes. Class abilities team balance mainly based on PvE. This is likely where the problems truly lie.

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Posted by: Faux Play.6104

Faux Play.6104

The game is pretty balanced 1v1 with the exception of a few outliers. In most scenarios, skill can overcome, or build tweaks can make up for disadvantages. If you don’t agree, I can almost guarantee you’re not very good.

That being said you are always going to have a class that’s best at something and a class that’s the worst.

No its not even close to being balanced.

Every class should have a 50/50 chance vs every other class but that’s not the case. Too many hard counters in this game

If you know what you are up against, you can build for a 50/50 match up vs any class 1v1. However, the game is complex enough that you can’t have one build that guarantees you a 50/50 chance for every possible combination each of the nine classes can throw at you. You specked to survive against that high burst build, but now you may not have enough damage to kill the bunker. You need condi clear to fight the the condo bomber, but it is a wasted slot vs the power build.

any attempt to guarantee 50/50 will drive the game to less options and less build diversity, or more “brain dead” play because skills will have to do two things. Regardless one of the camps is going to be unhappy.

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

No its not even close to being balanced.

Every class should have a 50/50 chance vs every other class but that’s not the case. Too many hard counters in this game

You’re using a fighting game’s definition of balance as opposed to a team based game’s definition of balance.

I think you’re just playing the wrong game. Go play super smash brothers or marvel vs capcom instead. Beware though, there are top picks there too.

Yet this game is failing in the balance department 1 meta after another while my definition would promote a significantly more balanced game.

The supposed way you are preaching would work if Anet knew how to properly balance it. They’ve proven for the last 4 years that they can’t. It’s so bad that for the pro league they put in the 1 class per team rule b/c they can’t balance the game properly.

Let’s put emphasis on skill not build.

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

No its not even close to being balanced.

Every class should have a 50/50 chance vs every other class but that’s not the case. Too many hard counters in this game

You’re using a fighting game’s definition of balance as opposed to a team based game’s definition of balance.

I think you’re just playing the wrong game. Go play super smash brothers or marvel vs capcom instead. Beware though, there are top picks there too.

while my definition would promote a significantly more balanced game.

Nope.

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

Guildwars 2 is an action mmo. It is like a medevil fps game that doesn’t have 1 vs 1. Who ever heard of a game without a 1 vs 1 arena? Swordsman online has it. Vindictus has it. Even blade and soul has it. The people who ask them to leave game modes alone on gw2 are like the people who asked vindictus to remove jumping. And guess what? when they removed jumping everyone quit. Stop being destructive to the game. The vindictus player base is dead. Don’t make Gw2 another vindictus.

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

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Posted by: Lucred.1802

Lucred.1802

The answer is pure laziness. At this rate Gw2 esports is going to face the same end as Gw1 esports.

How would you balance all of the classes? It’s one thing to criticize but can you some up with a solution? If not, maybe it’s not as easy as you think and they’re not being “lazy” as you put it.

I can, rather easily.
-don’t give only 2 of the classes absolutely everything (high sustained dps, high burst dmg, high zero-skill AoE, high mobility, high access to blocks, high access to interrupts, high access to heals, high access to invuln) like they did with scrapper and DH this season, while nerfing the pants off everything else.

I really don’t know who thought that was a good idea or why it got approved.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

The answer is pure laziness. At this rate Gw2 esports is going to face the same end as Gw1 esports.

How would you balance all of the classes? It’s one thing to criticize but can you some up with a solution? If not, maybe it’s not as easy as you think and they’re not being “lazy” as you put it.

I can, rather easily.
-don’t give only 2 of the classes absolutely everything (high sustained dps, high burst dmg, high zero-skill AoE, high mobility, high access to blocks, high access to interrupts, high access to heals, high access to invuln) like they did with scrapper and DH this season, while nerfing the pants off everything else.

I really don’t know who thought that was a good idea or why it got approved.

I don’t play scrapper but DH does not have access to all of those. They can also be easily countered.

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Posted by: Silverkey.2078

Silverkey.2078

The game should be balanced for 1v1… and for 5v5. And for 3v3…

The idea is that every classes should be as good as any other in 1v1. And also every class as good as any others in 5v5. But not necessarily the same build/elite spec.

So the idea is that you should be able to build your toon for a more 1v1-centric fight or a more group fight build. Currently this is not really possible because of bad design. But I think it should be a balance goal.

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Posted by: Pumpkin.5169

Pumpkin.5169

Only games that I know that are balanced to 1v1s are fighting games.

Pumpkin – Mag

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Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

No its not even close to being balanced.

Every class should have a 50/50 chance vs every other class but that’s not the case. Too many hard counters in this game

You’re using a fighting game’s definition of balance as opposed to a team based game’s definition of balance.

I think you’re just playing the wrong game. Go play super smash brothers or marvel vs capcom instead. Beware though, there are top picks there too.

while my definition would promote a significantly more balanced game.

You’re right. I’m wrong.

Thanks

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

No its not even close to being balanced.

Every class should have a 50/50 chance vs every other class but that’s not the case. Too many hard counters in this game

You’re using a fighting game’s definition of balance as opposed to a team based game’s definition of balance.

I think you’re just playing the wrong game. Go play super smash brothers or marvel vs capcom instead. Beware though, there are top picks there too.

while my definition would promote a significantly more balanced game.

You’re right. I’m wrong.

Thanks

Lol

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

balancing for 1v1 is functionally impossible without homogenizing the classes.

The reason soft and hard counters exist is because the gameplay differences between the classes lead to certain advantages over other classes.
A good example of this is how trap mechanics and shadowstep mechanics work give guardians a innate advantage over thieves that they do not get over other classes. Conversely the evade nature of thieves give them a large advantage over classes with low attack rates.

To achieve 1v1 balance you would need this.
-standardized amount of evades and blocks
-standardized attack speed
-standardized damage output

Sanity is for the weak minded.
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