Guild Wars 2

I just wanted to ask; why can’t conquest be like (drop the biases at the door please) WoW’s Arathi basin or something? Basically where you have to cast to capture a node rather than standing in a point (Minus the interrupt by pure damage). The reason I say this is:

- Its boring right now, you can’t play the field standing in a circle.
- Doing nothing but surviving to win is boring, you don’t even have to target the enemy as long as you stay alive and in a circle…
- Aoe would be still useful but not as annoying/effective for wiping people out.- Well timed interrupts would be more meaningful.

Honestly what I think would be more fun is an object capture like this:
- 5 second cast to capture.
- 20 seconds of being neutral (for back-caps) before you officially claim it, once you “capture” it. DEMOTES ZERGING.
- Thieves would be pretty funny in this gameplay, literally stealing captures. (Not sure how this would work out, but it does make more sense and sounds super fun. I don’t even play thief…)
- Would promote watching combat, not just surviving.
- Stability captures would be fun/clutch play but risky.
- More Risk/Reward play overall.

And its easier to set up now that glory is streamlined… I’m just saying, I think this would be a LOT more fun than standing in circles for the rest of our gaming career…

Survive to win is not exactly true, if you want a capture point back you have to kill or knockback and if you don´t want to lose a teamfight you might have to leave another point undefended. You can also 2v1 a squishy target quickly while your guardian bunkers 2 meanwhile. It´s about rotations.

ronpierce.2760:

I just wanted to ask; why can’t conquest be like (drop the biases at the door please) WoW’s Arathi basin or something? Basically where you have to cast to capture a node rather than standing in a point (Minus the interrupt by pure damage). The reason I say this is:

- Its boring right now, you can’t play the field standing in a circle.
- Doing nothing but surviving to win is boring, you don’t even have to target the enemy as long as you stay alive and in a circle…
- Aoe would be still useful but not as annoying/effective for wiping people out.- Well timed interrupts would be more meaningful.

Honestly what I think would be more fun is an object capture like this:
- 5 second cast to capture.
- 20 seconds of being neutral (for back-caps) before you officially claim it, once you “capture” it. DEMOTES ZERGING.
- Thieves would be pretty funny in this gameplay, literally stealing captures. (Not sure how this would work out, but it does make more sense and sounds super fun. I don’t even play thief…)
- Would promote watching combat, not just surviving.
- Stability captures would be fun/clutch play but risky.
- More Risk/Reward play overall.

And its easier to set up now that glory is streamlined… I’m just saying, I think this would be a LOT more fun than standing in circles for the rest of our gaming career…

Anet won’t change any of their flawed mechanics because they are too proud and they like to make new game mechanics without thorough testing. They could at least allow 3 people of team A capture point while there is just 1 member of team B.

ronpierce.2760:

I just wanted to ask; why can’t conquest be like (drop the biases at the door please) WoW’s Arathi basin or something? Basically where you have to cast to capture a node rather than standing in a point (Minus the interrupt by pure damage). The reason I say this is:

- Its boring right now, you can’t play the field standing in a circle.
- Doing nothing but surviving to win is boring, you don’t even have to target the enemy as long as you stay alive and in a circle…
- Aoe would be still useful but not as annoying/effective for wiping people out.- Well timed interrupts would be more meaningful.

Honestly what I think would be more fun is an object capture like this:
- 5 second cast to capture.
- 20 seconds of being neutral (for back-caps) before you officially claim it, once you “capture” it. DEMOTES ZERGING.
- Thieves would be pretty funny in this gameplay, literally stealing captures. (Not sure how this would work out, but it does make more sense and sounds super fun. I don’t even play thief…)
- Would promote watching combat, not just surviving.
- Stability captures would be fun/clutch play but risky.
- More Risk/Reward play overall.

And its easier to set up now that glory is streamlined… I’m just saying, I think this would be a LOT more fun than standing in circles for the rest of our gaming career…

The whole capture the point process is exactly why you will never find me in sPvP. Boring is an understatement here. I was unbelievably excited to see that PvP in GW2 was going to be 100% about balance and players having equal gear and all that great stuff. then i tried it out and the whole capture the point process lasted a few games for me before i never bothered again. I LOVED the battlegrounds from WoW but i HATED the fact that their PvP was 99% gear based and 1% skill. Its frustrating to get killed by people over and over that have better gear than you just to get a few points to get gear good enough to start surviving. Very flawed on Blizzard’s part but they did definitely nail down their actual maps and game types. I would give anything to see capture the flag or any number of new and creative modes for sPvP period. Luckily this game has plenty of other things to do that I’m not overly disappointed at how boring sPvP is but i would love for that to change if they would so much as consider other fun modes

Dhunis.9072:

ronpierce.2760:

snip myself

Anet won’t change any of their flawed mechanics because they are too proud and they like to make new game mechanics without thorough testing. They could at least allow 3 people of team A capture point while there is just 1 member of team B.

You may be right, but I could go on for a long time as to why this would be more realistic AND fun… I mean they’d have to add a reasonable object to actually WANT to “capture” for each one, but even if its just a flag, all of these things make be believe that this would be so much funner than circle-point conquest:

- It gives a name to thieves. They can literally steal a base for clutch plays. If its an operating object, it makes sense that a silent person re-calibrates the object then assassinates anyone who tries to correct it.
- Stability allows you to make clutch changes to the flow of the game, rather than using stability just so you don’t leave the magical circle on the ground. Its high risk, high reward. Blow your stability to make a mid-battle swap, but you also might take damage, are down important cooldowns but you’ve stalled your enemy.
- Smart interrupts matter. No longer would the best idea be “spam EVERYTHING”. Save your interrupts and WATCH the field if someone goes for the steal, you actively STOP them.
- You can move around and fight, no longer would you be forced on a magical circle and get aoed down, you could move around and fight like some builds are intended to do. Imagine the freedom and fluid-feeling of combat when you’re not confined to a box, as long as you’re still stopping the enemy from taking the point!
- It just makes more sense… Objects add a feeling of purpose in pvp, circles do not.
- Stunlock builds and AOE spamming would no longer be “the way” because AOE would be less effective (no artificial herding), and you could actually kite or avoid the stun-locking brutes (hence, warriors would innately feel less powerful).
- Team play ahoy! Instead of “burn x, burn y, I’m down… yawn” it’d be like, okay I’ll distract them keep them stunned, etc, you grab the point then help me, watch the point and interrupt anyone who tries to defend/clutch capture it.
- Mesmers could POTENTIALLY trick-steal, making them more flavorful with distractions, then grabbing points.
- Overall its just higher risk to your reward, do I fight or try to go for the grab, and if I do, can I hold it? (Including interrupting back-caps)
- PURE “bunkers” would die down a bit since unless they can interrupt being immortal isn’t going to do you much good.
- The ability snipe would come into play (granted you could ranged interrupt).

I’m not sure how anyone could think the current way could ever be considered more fun than this. Classes would actually be able to do what they’re indented to do this way! Steal, rush, trick, snipe, play the field. I will say I played conquest, different maps in GW2 for about a year or so? It bored me in a very short time. I played AV in WoW for 8 years and I still to this day love it…

5v5 bunker + stability + precast aoe or range

gg

RaynStargaze.6510:

5v5 bunker + stability + precast aoe or range

gg

I don’t think so. I will admit (but I believe this across the board) I think most stability abilities need shorter duration and CD rather than long CDs and long durations. But a little balancing of skills (not even extensive) could fix that right up.

As far as the bunkers, nah, any burst with interrupts and stuns would be more sought than someone who never dies. Someone who never dies but can’t interrupt or even pressure someone free-stealing a point would not be very popular. A guardian for instance would do about no damage so someone could just stability steal it and not even care if they got hit. If you ask me, that wouldn’t be what people want, I think you’re over simplifying it. I can play that game too, circle-conquest:

Stability bunker and AOE the point, gg.

Passive regen + stability would be incredibly hard to counter without a specific build to counter it (tons of boon rips + interrupts). Professions that have great sustain but require actions, as opposed to warrior sustain which is automatic, would be at a disadvantage. So warriors would have to be mercilessly nerfed to keep them in line. Boon ripping would be absolutely critical so necros, thieves, and mesmers would receive giant nerfs to keep them in line.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Passive regen + stability would be incredibly hard to counter without a specific build to counter it (tons of boon rips + interrupts). Professions that have great sustain but require actions, as opposed to warrior sustain which is automatic, would be at a disadvantage. So warriors would have to be mercilessly nerfed to keep them in line. Boon ripping would be absolutely critical so necros, thieves, and mesmers would receive giant nerfs to keep them in line.

Sure a couple (but if you ask me reasonable anyways) balance tweaks might be in order, but the whole concept would be MILES better than what we have now. Like I said a few things that might need to be done:

- Stability shorter durations, shorter cooldowns.
- Allow Dazes/interrupts to work through Stability (if they don’t already, honestly never checked, but this doesn’t include stuns).

OR (to avoid ALL of that)

Capturing a node gives
“Unguarded”: which disables (not removes) Stability/Stealth effects when capturing a node. This is the option I’d personally rather go for, because this is essentially what happened in WoW if a rogue wanted to cap it unstealthed them. But they could still sneak up to the goal/past people and often get a cap before they even noticed it was happening. In which case this would further increase the risk/reward factor and make it less about having stability. But you do have to remember this is a TEAM game, so its okay for classes to have niches.

I agree with the OP, and hope his topic is not derailed by other people making baseless accusations and insults against ANet. That’s neither helpful nor constructive.

Anyway, it’s definitely more engaging to have cast captures and promotes more strategic game play. I also hate being stuck in a circle. The maps have such a grand scale yet “good” play is limited to a few circles (not that fighting midfield was a good strategy in say, Warsong Gulch, but it occasionally made a strategic sense that it doesn’t on these maps.)

I still enjoy PvP, particularly on maps with more tangible objectives, but moving away from passive captures to something more active would be a big improvement.

ronpierce.2760:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Passive regen + stability would be incredibly hard to counter without a specific build to counter it (tons of boon rips + interrupts). Professions that have great sustain but require actions, as opposed to warrior sustain which is automatic, would be at a disadvantage. So warriors would have to be mercilessly nerfed to keep them in line. Boon ripping would be absolutely critical so necros, thieves, and mesmers would receive giant nerfs to keep them in line.

Sure a couple (but if you ask me reasonable anyways) balance tweaks might be in order, but the whole concept would be MILES better than what we have now. Like I said a few things that might need to be done:

- Stability shorter durations, shorter cooldowns.
- Allow Dazes/interrupts to work through Stability (if they don’t already, honestly never checked, but this doesn’t include stuns).

OR (to avoid ALL of that)

Capturing a node gives
“Unguarded”: which disables (not removes) Stability/Stealth effects when capturing a node. This is the option I’d personally rather go for, because this is essentially what happened in WoW if a rogue wanted to cap it unstealthed them. But they could still sneak up to the goal/past people and often get a cap before they even noticed it was happening. In which case this would further increase the risk/reward factor and make it less about having stability. But you do have to remember this is a TEAM game, so its okay for classes to have niches.

Yeah, thieves are currently able to maintain constant stealth indefinitely, so I’m afraid stealth capping would be horrific. There are three professions that can remove stability very easily. There is one profession that can get stability easily. If that wouldn’t cause major imbalance requiring massive nerfs/buffs, I don’t know what would.

Currently, stability only has one benefit (preventing interrupts). It doesn’t do anything else (no effect on immobilize/cripple/chill) so making interrupts work through stability is the same as removing stability.

I love ToSS and maybe it could work like that (damage interrupts channel). Then the only way to capture would essentially be to win the teamfight, which might actually be a really good thing. Apart from that, I’m going to have to stay firm on my position that a change like this would cause massive imbalance.

I prefer the passive capture. It makes sense to me, and I like the kb/cc games that comes out of it more than the interrupt game with stand and click mechanics. I’d also rather be fighting on the point and not trying to stand still and wait for a bar to fill.

NevirSayDie.6235:

ronpierce.2760:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Passive regen + stability would be incredibly hard to counter without a specific build to counter it (tons of boon rips + interrupts). Professions that have great sustain but require actions, as opposed to warrior sustain which is automatic, would be at a disadvantage. So warriors would have to be mercilessly nerfed to keep them in line. Boon ripping would be absolutely critical so necros, thieves, and mesmers would receive giant nerfs to keep them in line.

Sure a couple (but if you ask me reasonable anyways) balance tweaks might be in order, but the whole concept would be MILES better than what we have now. Like I said a few things that might need to be done:

- Stability shorter durations, shorter cooldowns.
- Allow Dazes/interrupts to work through Stability (if they don’t already, honestly never checked, but this doesn’t include stuns).

OR (to avoid ALL of that)

Capturing a node gives
“Unguarded”: which disables (not removes) Stability/Stealth effects when capturing a node. This is the option I’d personally rather go for, because this is essentially what happened in WoW if a rogue wanted to cap it unstealthed them. But they could still sneak up to the goal/past people and often get a cap before they even noticed it was happening. In which case this would further increase the risk/reward factor and make it less about having stability. But you do have to remember this is a TEAM game, so its okay for classes to have niches.

Yeah, thieves are currently able to maintain constant stealth indefinitely, so I’m afraid stealth capping would be horrific. There are three professions that can remove stability very easily. There is one profession that can get stability easily. If that wouldn’t cause major imbalance requiring massive nerfs/buffs, I don’t know what would.

Currently, stability only has one benefit (preventing interrupts). It doesn’t do anything else (no effect on immobilize/cripple/chill) so making interrupts work through stability is the same as removing stability.

I love ToSS and maybe it could work like that (damage interrupts channel). Then the only way to capture would essentially be to win the teamfight, which might actually be a really good thing. Apart from that, I’m going to have to stay firm on my position that a change like this would cause massive imbalance.

Well, what do you think about the “Unguarded” or “Guard Down” debuff while capping that essentially just negated Stability/stealth while interacting with it. In which case interrupts and CC would still be very useful to have (makes the game less brainless) because whats actually WORSE/less fun is aoe spamming an object, and that was my main goal to avoid. I think its enough risk to be totally vulnerable to damage and CC while interacting with the object that needing to interrupt purely on damage isn’t needed, and tbh isn’t really all that fun. Players want that risk for reward and this would be a great way to give it to them.

That said the “Unguarded” debuff is needed, you’re right. No stealth or stability capping, but it doesn’t have to remove the boons/buffs, just mask them while interacting. I think that’d be good.

Brigg.6189:

I prefer the passive capture. It makes sense to me, and I like the kb/cc games that comes out of it more than the interrupt game with stand and click mechanics. I’d also rather be fighting on the point and not trying to stand still and wait for a bar to fill.

Well in order to cap you’re just standing still ANYWAYS in the middle of a circle, currently. Plus they made it easy (with the interact function) in this game to mess with objects mid-fight, as opposed to WoW where you could only change it by right clicking on it directly. Additionally, it gives some real risk when you want to pull off a clutch play, by grabbing a point to stall the enemy’s gain. Fighting in a circle is only fun for builds that gain a massive upper hand just because people have to stand on the point to win. (Bunker guardians, AOE classes, CCers; aka all the stuff that people hate because its not fun to deal with while standing in a circle). Plus if the objects are meaningful and not just a flag it gives the game more of a feeling of “purpose” rather than a bunch of people really good at standing in circles.

(All of that said, I’d leave spirit watch the way it is, its secondary objective already works well so it makes sense currently, its best to have a variety anyhow, but for the MOST part this would be the way to go.)

You’d have some weird 1v1 interaction—for example, tanky point assault builds could continually start the channel until the opponent ran out of interrupts.

Certain builds never run out of interrupts (x/p thief) and would be able to permanently defend a point without actually fighting (just kite/shortbow/stealth around and headshot every five seconds).

So again, I think we’d be setting up for some pretty big balance issues.

NevirSayDie.6235:

You’d have some weird 1v1 interaction—for example, tanky point assault builds could continually start the channel until the opponent ran out of interrupts.

Certain builds never run out of interrupts (x/p thief) and would be able to permanently defend a point without actually fighting (just kite/shortbow/stealth around and headshot every five seconds).

So again, I think we’d be setting up for some pretty big balance issues.

Well I already explained this a bit:
- Doing this, you’re taking free hits to the face very risky, it does however, deter people from running full bunk builds for holding points, which I don’t mind.
- You don’t OWN the point by “capturing it” you own it by capturing it and holding it for 20 seconds, meaning if you want, sure you can do that, but if you die right afterwards, they “recap it” if its defended it automatically goes right back to them, no 20 second wait. (You only get the wait period when you’re on the push, not when you defend a node successfully.)

It does what people asked for. It gives risk/reward and meaningful clutch plays.

ronpierce.2760:

Well I already explained this a bit:
- Doing this, you’re taking free hits to the face very risky, it does however, deter people from running full bunk builds for holding points, which I don’t mind.
- You don’t OWN the point by “capturing it” you own it by capturing it and holding it for 20 seconds, meaning if you want, sure you can do that, but if you die right afterwards, they “recap it” if its defended it automatically goes right back to them, no 20 second wait. (You only get the wait period when you’re on the push, not when you defend a node successfully.)

It does what people asked for. It gives risk/reward and meaningful clutch plays.

Sorry, I didn’t explain myself well.

I mean that a thief would be able to permanently “bunker” his capture point by kiting around the area and using headshot whenever someone tried to capture. It’s certainly not possible to kill a tanky thief who’s actively kiting/avoiding you, so that matchup would be absolutely impossible for any profession to 1v1, period, and most 1v2s, 1v3s, 1v4s, and 1v5s. I’m not saying the thief would be able to capture points too easily, just defend permanently.

About a bunker build running his opponent out of interrupts, for that I meant in a 1v1. Either you have the damage to make him back off before 5 seconds are up or you have to use an interrupt. This one maybe wouldn’t be as big of a deal as headshot thieves.

When people talk about risk/reward, they’re referring to risk/reward in the abilities that you use. For example, if your burst misses, you’re supposed to be vulnerable after that; but some builds currently aren’t punished for “missing.” There are already a lot of risky, clutch plays that happen all the time.

I still think this way would be more fun. Like I said 8 years of loving AB in WoW and I already can’t stand ANY game map in GW2 after 1 year… The other way has shown to be better in the long run. I see no real balance issues that would pop up other than the thief thing you stated, however I’m still not too sure about that… Spamming head shot while just spam-interacting with the object sounds like the thief would run out of initiative pretty fast, and if its that bad, just have a friend come with you, if he spends all his time head shotting you, the other person should have no problems killing a thief, no matter how “bunky” he is, not to mention, still keeping you interrupted while he lives. Secondly, if that’s not working; just kill him then take it.

Yes I know people mean risk/reward in combat, but risk/reward/clutch and overall enjoyability of pvp maps has also been discussed, I don’t think it’d be a bad idea to add some risk/reward in playing the map as well. I for one would likely NEVER just run in and try to grab a point, especially since I play MM necro, I’d wipe that thief off the map, and take the point easy peasy. I can kill trolly evade thieves, I don’t think a thief spamming headshot is going to give me much issue.

I’m honestly thinking you’re overstating your concerns, and not thinking about how much it would improve most aspects of the gameplay and enjoyment of watching.

“Oh I think he’s going for it! Oh, stopped! And he slipped away, and came back stealthed and ninja’d the node!”

Where now we have…

“They’re fighting on the point! He got knocked off. He ran.”

I mean you really don’t think this could be WAY more engaging?

Well I’m not going to keep arguing about it. Yes, I enjoy the way ToSS works and I think it could be a lot of fun to play a game like that, but there would be significant, core-design changes needed to accommodate it. I don’t think Anet is in a position to re-design multiple professions from the ground up, so I think it would be better not to do it.

You’ve never seen a full tank regen-stealth thief, because the current system makes them pointless, thankfully. Believe me, you cannot kill one who doesn’t want to be killed.

OMFG YES!

btw I know you said to leave your bias but yeah Efff WoW PvP gear treadmill Pfffffft.

Anyways This I agree with 100% MAYBE it’s not the best for the game, and MAYBE it takes some old tactical plays out of it.

But it makes it feel more dynamic to watch! Even with Condi Spam / War hammer trains, this can make it interesting to watch. Old builds may die but new ones will be built around it! and we get more viable builds!

A-net at least publicly test this idea!

#Esports <- Should get your attention

5 Perma stealth thieves.

/thread.

Darnis.4056:

5 Perma stealth thieves.

/thread.

I already addressed this :P no stability or stealth while actively capping :P

While we’re on the game mode conversation, I really enjoyed the game modes that RIFT had for pvp. Classes were totally unbalanced (ie Rogues) in pvp but the game modes were insanely fun. If you’re unfamiliar with them, they went like this:

Black Garden

Object placed in the middle of the map. Hold object to gain points. Person holding object takes increasing amounts of damage until they die in which case it is dropped. After being dropped, so many seconds pass before it is returned to the center of the map unless picked up again. First team to 500 wins.

Library (longer name but I forgot it all)

Same concept as Black Garden except a number object appear at different points on the map in (I think) 2 minute intervals until five objects exist. Players holding the objects run slower and grow in size and are highlighted so they stand out.

Whitefall Steeps

Pretty much standard CTF mode, large map, insanely fun but ruined by unbalanced Rogue classes because teleporting with the flags was allowed. This was my favorite mode to play though.

There are a few others and if you played RIFT you’re probably familiar with them, but I won’t list them all. Those three are just my top favorite three and were the most fun.

ronpierce.2760:

Darnis.4056:

5 Perma stealth thieves.

/thread.

I already addressed this :P no stability or stealth while actively capping :P

No not really.. once you cap a point? guess how easy it is for a thief to interrupt indefinitely? Guess who has one of the quickest movement speeds in the game?

Stealth. Interrupt Stealth; Interrupt stealth. Interrupt stealth.

Darnis.4056:

ronpierce.2760:

Darnis.4056:

5 Perma stealth thieves.

/thread.

I already addressed this :P no stability or stealth while actively capping :P

No not really.. once you cap a point? guess how easy it is for a thief to interrupt indefinitely? Guess who has one of the quickest movement speeds in the game?

Stealth. Interrupt Stealth; Interrupt stealth. Interrupt stealth.

Oh, yeah. Well truth be told, after the latest patch notes, I’m not sure perma stealth will exist anymore after Dec 10. We’ll just have to see.

ronpierce.2760:

Darnis.4056:

ronpierce.2760:

Darnis.4056:

5 Perma stealth thieves.

/thread.

I already addressed this :P no stability or stealth while actively capping :P

No not really.. once you cap a point? guess how easy it is for a thief to interrupt indefinitely? Guess who has one of the quickest movement speeds in the game?

Stealth. Interrupt Stealth; Interrupt stealth. Interrupt stealth.

Oh, yeah. Well truth be told, after the latest patch notes, I’m not sure perma stealth will exist anymore after Dec 10. We’ll just have to see.

Actually with the Initiative regen buff I’m not so sure that’s true.

its 25% buff, but they lost the 2 init each time they use a stealth booster, so they won’t be able to leap spam through shadow fields as much, so at the very least, they wont have as long of stealths.

Still you have many options like switching to ranged weapons; using thief trap/Thieve’s guild while remaining mostly in stealth.

This could be a new game mode, but I’m not a fan of buffing troll builds like thieves and Prismatic Understanding bad mesmers.

Perhaps, yes a new game mode. I just hope when they start with various game modes we’re allowed to uncheck/opt out of certain ones, cause honestly current conquest doesn’t appeal to me one bit.

I’m in 2 minds with this, it sounds more dynamic and interesting but doesn’t it buff bunkers or tanky characters a lot? You no longer need to stand in a vulnerable position you just need to stop a 5sec cast going off while the capturing char needs to stand still for 5secs in a dodgey spot unable to dodge. It also kinda messes up knocking ppl off point to decap it. It would put more importance on interupts i guess, but at the same time you would really not have much need to kill anyone. I think it would be really ugly setups of mass stab spam and bunkering.

Good to hear thoughts but the more i think about it the more i think it would be horrendous.

Edit: Oh and just to point out its a 33% buff to initiative gain, its going FROM 0.75 to 1, so adding 0.25 which is 1/3 of 0.75.