Guild Wars 2

This came up in another thread, that appears to have been merged into the Skyhammer thread. Since every mention of that map gets chucked in there, I’ma just say now: I don’t want to discuss Skyhammer here. No matter what similarities there are between the two maps, this is not a thread about Skyhammer. This thread will look really out of place if merged into that thread, and we can’t have a disorganised forum now, can we?

Anyway: this thread is about Spirit Watch.

And why it’s seen as fit for Solo Queue but not Team Queue.

Surely if anything, the map would work better in teamq, as both teams could be expected to organise orbrunners (and counter-orbrunners) and have discussed builds to use beforehand in case the map popped?
In soloq it’s just “let’s see which team has an orbrunner” – and without concerted effort, it’s pretty kitten difficult to shut down a Warrior flying up those steps to homepoint.

So yeah, what reasons do you have for (or against) Spirit Watch being included in teamq? Do you think it should even stay in soloq?

This reply has nothing to do with skyhammer whatsoever. Yes I think spirithammer is a great map where positioning on the map takes additional skill. Sometimes though I think our team is doing well and then suddenly the tide is turned by secondary objects making me feel like I was stood on a glass panel.

What I love is when the opposing team focuses on only one area you can really hammer down on them and take the lead.

Because when it came out all the “top” teams got wrecked on it fairly often. So they QQed about it and anet removed it to try and suck up to about 15 players. This was about 12-18 months ago or something. Can’t even remember who the top teams were then. Almost nobody who still plays probably.

I believe it is because one of the side nodes is like 300 units farther from spawn on one side? That’s just a rumor I’ve heard before. Personally, I love Spirit Watch, it is the only map that has a truly meaningful secondary objective. I know there are some trollish specs out there that can handle orb running very well, but since everyone can do that I don’t see why it shouldn’t be in team queue. I would love to have this map in team queue again.

Eurantien.4632:

I believe it is because one of the side nodes is like 300 units farther from spawn on one side? That’s just a rumor I’ve heard before. Personally, I love Spirit Watch, it is the only map that has a truly meaningful secondary objective. I know there are some trollish specs out there that can handle orb running very well, but since everyone can do that I don’t see why it shouldn’t be in team queue. I would love to have this map in team queue again.

I agree. It did used to suck when the bug with RTL existed though. But now that has changed. Also it takes way longer to pick up the orb now. But I don’t get why they fixed the map and still don’t put it in team queue. Whats the worst that can happen?

I like this map. I like stoping the orb runner and I would welcome this map being added to the rotation. I feel that the same about it as I do skyhammer and that is the new players dislike the map because they die a lot. I also think the vet hates them because there are something different from the normal game modes. Even tho many cry daily about wanting new games modes. fact is they don’t adjust very well to change. Spirit watch is good and should be in the rotation. Its hard to please everyone.

Drafigo.4690:

I like this map. I like stoping the orb runner and I would welcome this map being added to the rotation. I feel that the same about it as I do skyhammer and that is the new players dislike the map because they die a lot. I also think the vet hates them because there are something different from the normal game modes. Even tho many cry daily about wanting new games modes. fact is they don’t adjust very well to change. Spirit watch is good and should be in the rotation. Its hard to please everyone.

I think there is a difference between sky hammer and spirit watch that should keep the former out of team queue. The difference is that on sky hammer I can just run pure bunker with a knockback and win all my fights. On spirit watch, I can’t abuse the map that way, the best I can do it make an orb running build to abuse the map, but there are so many ways to counter any “cheesy” technique I could use to grab the orb that it would be a waste if I was a PURE orb running spec.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Because when it came out all the “top” teams got wrecked on it fairly often. So they QQed about it and anet removed it to try and suck up to about 15 players. This was about 12-18 months ago or something. Can’t even remember who the top teams were then. Almost nobody who still plays probably.

This explains why my team beat one of the best team at the time on it a year ago.

Had Powerr, Supcutie and Lil Dragon Blinx on it.

That being said, Spirit Watch is my favorite map.

Honestly what I like about spirit watch is the tactical nature of the orb. The enemy is trying to run orb without a home defender? Decap home then stop the runner. The enemy is over commiting 3 or 4 people at the beach, neutral all their points. With a context sensitive thing like orb rotations matter a lot. I just wish there weren’t builds with insane leaping speed like sword gs warrior/ranger.

Have you ever seen a triple stance, double endure pain warrior running orb? Have you ever seen an ele with FGS running orb? That’s why the map isn’t in team queue, its incredibly easy to exploit the secondary mechanic.

Elitist.8701:

Have you ever seen a triple stance, double endure pain warrior running orb? Have you ever seen an ele with FGS running orb? That’s why the map isn’t in team queue, its incredibly easy to exploit the secondary mechanic.

Don’t let them pick up the orb… Game is hard.

Besides, if they want to dedicate a guy to orb running, it’s a 4v5 and if you play 3 nodes you win the game through pure conquest.

Eurantien.4632:

Besides, if they want to dedicate a guy to orb running, it’s a 4v5 and if you play 3 nodes you win the game through pure conquest.

Not necessarily.. the orb runner could rotate in to fights and drop some pain and turn the tide as well. It wouldn’t be as guaranteed a pure conquest win as it seems.

Chaith.8256:

Eurantien.4632:

Besides, if they want to dedicate a guy to orb running, it’s a 4v5 and if you play 3 nodes you win the game through pure conquest.

Not necessarily.. the orb runner could rotate in to fights and drop some pain and turn the tide as well. It wouldn’t be as guaranteed a pure conquest win as it seems.

If I’m running a s/gs war or ranger, I am not rolling into a point to “drop some pain” compared to “meta” builds that will be encountered around the nodes. Sure, the orb still has an influence, but there are ways to counter orb runners; with one of your own, with any build that can fight it (and still be useful at a node fight), or by just ignoring them, win the fights, and then kill the orb runner when he gets close, etc. If they use any defensive skills, invulns, ports, invis, they will either fail to work or force an orb drop which means you can probably kill them.

In my opinion, the best thing about this map is that the orb allows for teams to not run pure tanks. The reason the Apex comp is so strong is because of conquest, once they get a hold of the nodes it’s over, they don’t die and you can’t get the neut. On Spirit Watch the orb can decap the node and still get you those points to keep you in the game because that bunker comp doesn’t have enough DPS to kill an orb runner.

I would love to see Spirit Watch in team queue just for that reason, it actually takes some strategy beyond the “take the node, hold the node”.

Eurantien.4632:

I would love to see Spirit Watch in team queue just for that reason, it actually takes some strategy beyond the “take the node, hold the node”.

Obligatory GW2 Announcer guy:

‘Hold on to your points. Seize theirs!’

Thanks Eurantien and Five Gauge for the convo it’s great to read the thoughts of top 100 PvPers.

Spirit watch would be fine in team queue if they give the orb carrier its own set of skills. Right now, the map is just too unbalanced for tournament play.

we can’t have spirit watch in teamq because everyone would automatically just switch to warrior or engineer instantly in order to win and get over this silly map. just like cc on skyhammer on spirit watch movement is completely over the top and that would lead to every tpvp player parking said engineer or warrior in order to switch until they can play their class on an actual map since spirit watch as well as skyhammers are not maps but jokes.
you don’t want to talk about skyhammer but spirit watch actually has the exact same problem: secondary mechanic is so specific that some classes have a gigantic advantage in fulfilling them which takes away your choice for at least 2 positions in your team (runner and counter for runner).

zaced.7948:

we can’t have spirit watch in teamq because everyone would automatically just switch to warrior or engineer instantly in order to win and get over this silly map. just like cc on skyhammer on spirit watch movement is completely over the top and that would lead to every tpvp player parking said engineer or warrior in order to switch until they can play their class on an actual map since spirit watch as well as skyhammers are not maps but jokes.
you don’t want to talk about skyhammer but spirit watch actually has the exact same problem: secondary mechanic is so specific that some classes have a gigantic advantage in fulfilling them which takes away your choice for at least 2 positions in your team (runner and counter for runner).

This isn’t that much different from other maps. I know there have been team is in the past that have builds specifically for repairing/using treb and even for killing treb. Mesmer portal, shadow trap thief with perma stealth to fire treb in stealth, ele with fgs to kill treb.

I don’t understand why you think Spirit Watch is a joke? Because you can have non meta builds be succesful through orb running? Maybe I’m bias, but no matter how you word that I think I will always interpret it as, “non-meta builds are viable on Spirit Watch” which to me sounds fun not awful.

Spirit Watch is the only map with a TRULY meaningful secondary mechanic, meaning that if you focus on it you can still be competitive. There are so many more strategies that Spirit Watch offers over other maps that I would love to see play out.

why not skyhammer in teamq?

Insanity.5174:

why not skyhammer in teamq?

Because unlike the other maps Sky hammer does not promote build/team diversity but instead promotes pure knock back bunker builds.

Eurantien.4632:

Insanity.5174:

why not skyhammer in teamq?

Because unlike the other maps Sky hammer does not promote build/team diversity but instead promotes pure knock back bunker builds.

oh ty i’d never get that.

i think what eurantien is saying is skyhammer and spirit watch are different because a full team of orb runners will lose, a full team of knockback classes will win.

XacTactX.6709:

i think what eurantien is saying is skyhammer and spirit watch are different because a full team of orb runners will lose, a full team of knockback classes will win.

Yeah, that’s possible, but I think with Spirit Watch it’s complicated.

For the sake of this comparison, let’s say one team has a dedicated orb runner and attempts to get him to continuously run the orb, where the other team plays pure conquest.

In theory, if the orb running team team wastes a player by frivolously running orbs, the other team can play 3 points and dominate the conquest points in the map. But think that it will be much harder to win that 3 point strat than it would be for the other team with a Rifle, E-gun, Rocket Boots & Super Speed (Soldiers) Engineer to run orbs.

The ball is definitely in the court of the players focusing on playing 3 points and winning.

As an alternate strategy, the team that was running pure conquest could worry a little bit about the orb – dedicateing a player into interrupting the enemy team from picking up the orb. That player’s potential is extremely reduced. There goes your one-man-up advantage, for the most part. It would work extremely well if this guy could 1v1 the enemy orb runner every time, but unless he was going to run the orb himself, by the time he got back to a fight, the enemy orb runner would be capturing it again. Darn. If he did run the orb, he would be slow, and the orb team could even turn the orb around.

Remember that if a team even holds one one point, with un-interrupted orb running, that team beats the other team with a 2 cap. If the orb capturing is interrupted, that runner can beat anyone to a point and neutral it (except a thief) – the orb runner has a double ability. Then he can book it back to the orb and capture it while the defender is re-capturing the neutral point.

It’s super complicated and I don’t think the advantage is clearly in the favor of the team playing pure conquest, with a 3 point strat. With a clever orb runner and a bunkery comp that can keep one point capped, the strat can be really hard to counter.

In that case, you just dedicate 1 or 2 guys to fight outnumbered at the orb to prevent the cap so you can still +1 you 2 cap where you need and prevent that team from running the orb. I don’t think there is any one dedicated way to win Spirit Watch. While for the rest of the maps it seems the more bunker the more better.

I agree that it’s not a terrible map, definitely leagues ahead of Skyhammer! It could work in team queue, but I think scoring the orb should be worth only 20 points if you own the point, and 10 if you don’t (doesn’t sound like a lot, but remember, you instantly decap an enemy point too!). It’s not as masterfully balanced as Legacy or Temple, but it’s not as bland and dull as Forest either. :p