Guild Wars 2

Turrets, pets, undead, whatever. All these mechanics where you spawn an AI driven character into the world are going to keep these type of games out of the serious realm when it comes to PVP.

I think for the biggest realization of this came after about 1000 1v1 arena matches in Archeage. Call it gimmicky game, sure. But the point here is how much of an advantage the AI character gave.

-In context…

At some point during about month 2 of archeage players began using pets in 1v1 arena. This was frowned upon by many and somehow the overall shame factor of it caused the use of pets to die down. However, some observations made it clear that PVE does not belong in PVP, particularly in a tab targeting style game.

Clear cut reasons-

1. Tab targeting systems are never perfect and even the absolute best player’s are prone to hitting the AI character (pet, turret ect) with an attack that was 100% intended for the actual player. In 1v1 Archeage- at the top level, you would sometimes see the number one in the world players hit the little pet running around, its an easy mistake to make and can cost you the game.

2. AI character’s have one purpose- auto-attacking. This leaves me to believe that in the idea/brainstorming phase of development, ideas ran out and in order to add more diversity someone thought that injecting pve elements into the pvp elements would make the game more exiting. It doesn’t

Lets take a game like Dota 2 for example- it’s AI which is readily programmed to run across the map and auto attack can be manipulated in a way that is purposefully and carefully designed to add multiple elements to the gameplay experience- but any player spawn AI characters are controlled directly by the player- thus making them more or less and extra arm and leg for the player to control. Can you imagine if some class in Dota 2 could spawn self reliant AI characters? Would probably take away from the amount of skill involved in the game.

TL;DR too many player spawned, self reliant AI characters are being put into our pvp games.

ok?

Did I stumble into the Archeage forums accidentally?

The new PvP mode will include NPCs. Seems like a lot of them really. OP might be referring to that

Invoker.5462:

1. Tab targeting systems are never perfect and even the absolute best player’s are prone to hitting the AI character (pet, turret ect) with an attack that was 100% intended for the actual player.

Pro tip: Check your target before hitting you skill.. #nuffsaid

Invoker.5462:

2. AI character’s have one purpose- auto-attacking. This leaves me to believe that in the idea/brainstorming phase of development, ideas ran out and in order to add more diversity someone thought that injecting pve elements into the pvp elements would make the game more exiting. It doesn’t

… according to you..

Invoker.5462:

Lets take a game like Dota 2 for example

Are you really comparing a MOBA with an MMORPG?

Invoker.5462:

TL;DR too many player spawned, self reliant AI characters are being put into our pvp games.

Let’s remove all spirit weapons, clones, phantasms, pets, …

Hey OP, I think you might wanna try another game..
And you made yourself some nice suggestions: ArcheAge, Dota2, … :p

lol

#Esports

15 chars

Ehhmm the people on this Guildwars2 forum don’t care about Arche Age and dota2 talk?

http://forums.archeagegame.com/ here you go buddie

I wasn’t aware that a profession’s method of combat was PvE.

So, rangers can’t use pets. Necros can’t use minions. Mesmers can’t use clones/phantasms. Ele’s can’t use elementals. Engies can’t use turrets. Guardians can’t use spirit weapons. Thieves can’t use their elite skill, Thieves guild. That leaves warriors as the only ok PvP choice.

Thanks for clearing this up for us. Any time you have any more insights, don’t hesitate to share them.

Invoker.5462:

Turrets, pets, undead, whatever. All these mechanics where you spawn an AI driven character into the world are going to keep these type of games out of the serious realm when it comes to PVP.

So you are against classes that have minions/pets is what I’m gathering. How is that even fair to suggest that a class can’t use their core mechanic in PvP? You’re basically saying that necros, rangers, engineers, mesmers, heck even spirit weapon guardians have no place in sPvP because why? Too hard for you to kill or something?

If you want bare bones standard PvP then I’m sure there are other games out there, but GW2 has very distinct classes and not once have I ever felt that one was supremely over-powered compared to another simply because of their minions…

Perhaps GW2 is too complex for you.

Sorry, i can’ t take for serious somebody that calls himself Invoker

shudders

Is it not possible to discuss or debate the OP’s points without taking cheap shots at the person ?

Ashen.2907:

Is it not possible to discuss or debate the OP’s points without taking cheap shots at the person ?

Yes but what are his points realy there are no 1v1 in gw2 and alot of the classes got pets most of them 20-40sec but afew permanent

Ashen.2907:

Is it not possible to discuss or debate the OP’s points without taking cheap shots at the person ?

If this isn’t trolling, than i don’t know what is. Even the MOBAs he mentioned are all about player spawned AI. Profession mechanics aren’t a PvE thing.

“PvP” doesn’t mean you only fight players.

It means there’s players on opposing teams, and it’s their actions what determines victory.

Ashen.2907:

The new PvP mode will include NPCs. Seems like a lot of them really. OP might be referring to that

Might be, sure. But I think he’s more or less referring to spawned NPC’s such as the Ranger, Necromancer, and the Elementalist each have as well as the Engineer’s turrets. At least that’s what I got out of context from the comparison to the ArcheAge arenas with pets. However the OP neglects to understand that those minions are factored into the damage output of those classes and are specifically balanced as such as well. To remove them would be to essentially kitten those classes in a PvP situation and would not work.

I’ll hop back to the topic of the new PvP map & mode just to point out that it is purposely designed like a MOBA. In fact it looks like the developers took some factors in from when they had a similar mechanic game during the 2012 Halloween event (although that map was significantly smaller and had stealth corn instead of siege features). I’m really looking forward to a MOBA style PvP game within GW2, and that’s because my character that I’ve invested in, built up, and created uniquely to be my own is not just a random pick of 12 same-faced champions that’s in every other MOBA. It’ll be interesting for sure.

Never mind that the AI on these spawned creatures in GW2 is TERRIBLE and that they do BARELY any damage. (except for Mesmer Phantasms, who die in a hit or two anyway)

Now, I am onboard when we refer to Ranger pets being able to CC both on demand and automated. There’s nothing more annoying than being feared by a Ranger’s pet and THEN knocked down by it too. Sure, you say get some stability? My boon ran out in combat and my utility is on cooldown. The ranger doesn’t do anything extra to make his pet CC me.

I honestly think that Ranger pets should have a bar of their own (outside of just the F2 key) so that they actually have to USE all of the abilities themselves. But that’s just me.

As for Mesmers, Phantasms can be negated if you keep blinding them. GG.

Welcome to the (pve) jungle.
Targeting system is at it is because pvp. Only one or two targets (if more, you’re dead anyway), all targets valid (no bunnies, no moas, no doors, nothing to distract you), you may have to press tab no more than once.
Maybe, along with protests by pvp crowds, targeting will be improved somehow.

Well. The AI in GW2 is so easy to predict that it is only the new players that will die to those builds. Turret engineers and minion master necromancers are not used in top play, for one simple reason. The AI doesn’t think. It doesn’t react to plays by the opposing team, it just mindlessly attack its target.

I wouldn’t consider mesmer for an AI profession. Mesmer players use their clones for a big burst (berserker) and shatter or to deceive the enemy and make them attack the wrong target or just to create clutter for their team to take advantage of. Mesmers rarely leave clones out for long enough to have them deal any significant damage.

Tl;dr: I don’t think it is a problem, since it isn’t used for any top plays. Only newer players will fall to AI builds.

Lol OP

Archeage had so much p2w stuff in arenas and was way more unbalanced than GW2. Pets and AIs aren’t PVE either. Learn the terms properly.

Summoners are present in almost every single good mmorpg. I would rather see this game become more similar to Archage than to dota. This game is mmorpg not a moba. Want a moba go play one.

Right now the only AI that is not super bad is mesmer’s clones. Pet, turrets, minions, spirit weapons, elementals all have some sort of AI problem and are overall underpowered in spvp. And in wvw and pve they are completely garbage builds.

for classes that have AI characters as part of their builds, they suffer the drawback of being predictable in combat, obstructed by terrain, and generally prone to the limitations of AI that human judgement can surpass.

The AI is not too difficult, and cutting it out of pvp would cripple more than half of our class builds. If anything, they need a buff.

Invoker.5462:

Turrets, pets, undead, whatever. All these mechanics where you spawn an AI driven character into the world are going to keep these type of games out of the serious realm when it comes to PVP.

I think for the biggest realization of this came after about 1000 1v1 arena matches in Archeage. Call it gimmicky game, sure. But the point here is how much of an advantage the AI character gave.

-In context…

At some point during about month 2 of archeage players began using pets in 1v1 arena. This was frowned upon by many and somehow the overall shame factor of it caused the use of pets to die down. However, some observations made it clear that PVE does not belong in PVP, particularly in a tab targeting style game.

Clear cut reasons-

1. Tab targeting systems are never perfect and even the absolute best player’s are prone to hitting the AI character (pet, turret ect) with an attack that was 100% intended for the actual player. In 1v1 Archeage- at the top level, you would sometimes see the number one in the world players hit the little pet running around, its an easy mistake to make and can cost you the game.

2. AI character’s have one purpose- auto-attacking. This leaves me to believe that in the idea/brainstorming phase of development, ideas ran out and in order to add more diversity someone thought that injecting pve elements into the pvp elements would make the game more exiting. It doesn’t

Lets take a game like Dota 2 for example- it’s AI which is readily programmed to run across the map and auto attack can be manipulated in a way that is purposefully and carefully designed to add multiple elements to the gameplay experience- but any player spawn AI characters are controlled directly by the player- thus making them more or less and extra arm and leg for the player to control. Can you imagine if some class in Dota 2 could spawn self reliant AI characters? Would probably take away from the amount of skill involved in the game.

TL;DR too many player spawned, self reliant AI characters are being put into our pvp games.

How would you recommend doing something like this without destroying classes like:
-Ranger [Pets/Spirits]
-Necromancer [Minions]
-Mesmer [Illusions/ Phantasms]

To everyone else, don’t derail the thread please

You don’t have to jump down the guy’s throat. There are many people that do not like pet’s or pet based classes and don’t think they believe in serious pvp. You may disagree but to act like it is some kind of fringe opinion is ridiculous.

LOOT BOXES INSIDE OF LOOT BOXES.

I’m running out of items I can just drag → delete that I don’t have to type the name in to delete. Will be just deleting and rerolling characters to get rid of inventory soon.