Guild Wars 2

Stealth on thief I can understand count to 4 then dodge but what I should do with kittened PU 6s, 8s stealth when only sign that you will be bursted is the funny sound of mantra stun.

Dodge that then comes the next 6s stealth and burst.

@Darksteel:
… but then thief-burst is extremely spammy – so is their stealth-abilities. And their cleansing. And their mobility. In fact if that is your understanding, then thieves are just one big spamfest of available skills doing too much.

posthumecaver.6473:

Stealth on thief I can understand count to 4 then dodge but what I should do with kittened PU 6s, 8s stealth when only sign that you will be bursted is the funny sound of mantra stun.

Dodge that then comes the next 6s stealth and burst.

Thief has more access to stealth and can stealth a lot longer. If the thieves you face are that predictable, then they are doing it wrong. I am sorry, but that is really my opinion.

Perhaps it is a bit much to ask to carry 2 stun breakers. But that is what I always do – also when playing mesmer.

Should be noted, that I do find mesmers to need some fixing, but my opinion is more like the ones you would find in the mesmer-forum. I have no wish to be the end-all be-all, but I dislike being thief-fodder.

Darksteel.8412:

Xstein.2187:

Theives also gain bonuses from stealth. For example, they can remove conditions in stealth. They can also go into stealth until their initiative buffs up again.

xstein…youre a little kid in your arguements…no joke! anyway thief has no invuln spam thief get’s revealed on attack…clones/phantasms do insane damage for …clones/phantasms and mesmer stays in stealth… ik it goes for ranger and pet too….but pls can we compare those…no we cant. mesmer is stupendously OP and needs to lose alot of damage output or alot of its stealth

Whereas this is a serious argument?
I am sorry, but where were you, back when thieves comeplety sat on mesmers faces for the last 3 years? Right.
I take it, you are talking about s/t when you talk about 9 1/2 sec invulnerability-spam. But that would mean you didn’t take BD. Uhm … ? And how long is the cd on stealth again?

Poxxia.1547:

Thief has more access to stealth and can stealth a lot longer. If the thieves you face are that predictable, then they are doing it wrong. I am sorry, but that is really my opinion.

Perhaps it is a bit much to ask to carry 2 stun breakers. But that is what I always do – also when playing mesmer.

Problem that lies here is that, Mesmers stack loads of conditions on you and stealth themselves.
While he’s hidden, conditions are ticking.
Thief doesn’t have such luxury, because to damage you, he has to reveal himself.

In this matter, it simply makes PU mesmer way overboard, and Confusion should be reworked in that aspect, because despite PU build being totally safe, it punishes it’s opponent for trying to be defensive as well – and that part is about Confusion where Mesmer is stacking it high on you, and anything you use, turns out to be ~2.5k in the face.

Well, PU build should’ve been reworked long time ago, because it favors two highest conditions – torment and confusion.

And both can be stacked highly in little time frame.
Oh, and re-aplication of both is comparable to bleed spam on all classes.

Ele has too much stealth too.
nerf stealth from ele.

Tao.1234:

Poxxia.1547:

Thief has more access to stealth and can stealth a lot longer. If the thieves you face are that predictable, then they are doing it wrong. I am sorry, but that is really my opinion.

Perhaps it is a bit much to ask to carry 2 stun breakers. But that is what I always do – also when playing mesmer.

Problem that lies here is that, Mesmers stack loads of conditions on you and stealth themselves.
While he’s hidden, conditions are ticking.
Thief doesn’t have such luxury, because to damage you, he has to reveal himself.

In this matter, it simply makes PU mesmer way overboard, and Confusion should be reworked in that aspect, because despite PU build being totally safe, it punishes it’s opponent for trying to be defensive as well – and that part is about Confusion where Mesmer is stacking it high on you, and anything you use, turns out to be ~2.5k in the face.

Well, PU build should’ve been reworked long time ago, because it favors two highest conditions – torment and confusion.

And both can be stacked highly in little time frame.
Oh, and re-aplication of both is comparable to bleed spam on all classes.

What are you even talking about? The meta PU Shatter build is a power build. What tourney recently had a Condition PU build in it that we all must’ve completely missed? Is this thread actually about hotjoin heroes or something?

Poxxia.1547:

@Darksteel:
… but then thief-burst is extremely spammy – so is their stealth-abilities. And their cleansing. And their mobility. In fact if that is your understanding, then thieves are just one big spamfest of available skills doing too much.

you are making no sense, it’s the whole picture of mesmer: being able to ignore any burst at any time at will, paired with stealth that rivals that or surpasses that of a thief. ranged heavy aoe bursts that you can barely miss have stunbreak teleport on extremely short cd for an sb especially since it ports you into savety. reflects the mirrored anquish…all this stacked together and some more its just way to much and can’t compare it to thief…at all. I have ALOT less trouble vs thieves then mesmers. I even have less trouble vs celems, mesmer is toxic pure toxic sorry I truly think it is with the new patch’honestly don’t see how any player that like balance doen’t see this or would disagree I also truly believe Anet never intended to make the mesmer for what it is now but gave in to the repetitve cries from players who don’t care about balance but wanted the same or more damage then other classes and simply easily forgetting that the mesmer already has mechanics no other class could ever rival in any way. prepatch mesmer were not up, now they are toxic OP. pop stabi get’s rekt right before u wanna cc…and u get cced as well passive toxicness to the fullest alrdy, this is just one simple example, still manage to somehow pull your burst of…it goes invuln then you lose target cause stealth starts the options are endless paired with way to much damage playing mesmer brings no risk yet all the reward if not more then other zerky classes. it’s toxic yes

Tao.1234:

Poxxia.1547:

Thief has more access to stealth and can stealth a lot longer. If the thieves you face are that predictable, then they are doing it wrong. I am sorry, but that is really my opinion.

Perhaps it is a bit much to ask to carry 2 stun breakers. But that is what I always do – also when playing mesmer.

Problem that lies here is that, Mesmers stack loads of conditions on you and stealth themselves.
While he’s hidden, conditions are ticking.
Thief doesn’t have such luxury, because to damage you, he has to reveal himself.

In this matter, it simply makes PU mesmer way overboard, and Confusion should be reworked in that aspect, because despite PU build being totally safe, it punishes it’s opponent for trying to be defensive as well – and that part is about Confusion where Mesmer is stacking it high on you, and anything you use, turns out to be ~2.5k in the face.

Well, PU build should’ve been reworked long time ago, because it favors two highest conditions – torment and confusion.

And both can be stacked highly in little time frame.
Oh, and re-aplication of both is comparable to bleed spam on all classes.

If we are talking PU-condi-shatter now, then yeah: It is such a troll-build. I find it useful in solo-Q, but I wouldn’t take it to organised pvp.

I find the problem to be two-fold: We can stack confusion really high and we can stack cover-conditions. I am not even sure torment is that big an issue – I find the real sinner to be confusion. And confusion was ofc buffed.
The fix? Organised cleansing? PU is not really the issue imho.

Darksteel.8412:

Poxxia.1547:

@Darksteel:
… but then thief-burst is extremely spammy – so is their stealth-abilities. And their cleansing. And their mobility. In fact if that is your understanding, then thieves are just one big spamfest of available skills doing too much.

you are making no sense, it’s the whole picture of mesmer: being able to ignore any burst at any time at will, paired with stealth that rivals that or surpasses that of a thief. ranged heavy aoe bursts that you can barely miss have stunbreak teleport on extremely short cd for an sb especially since it ports you into savety. reflects the mirrored anquish…all this stacked together and some more its just way to much and can’t compare it to thief…at all. I have ALOT less trouble vs thieves then mesmers. I even have less trouble vs celems, mesmer is toxic pure toxic sorry I truly think it is with the new patch’honestly don’t see how any player that like balance doen’t see this or would disagree I also truly believe Anet never intended to make the mesmer for what it is now but gave in to the repetitve cries from players who don’t care about balance but wanted the same or more damage then other classes and simply easily forgetting that the mesmer already has mechanics no other class could ever rival in any way. prepatch mesmer were not up, now they are toxic OP. pop stabi get’s rekt right before u wanna cc…and u get cced as well passive toxicness to the fullest alrdy, this is just one simple example, still manage to somehow pull your burst of…it goes invuln then you lose target cause stealth starts the options are endless paired with way to much damage playing mesmer brings no risk yet all the reward if not more then other zerky classes. it’s toxic yes

Ok – let us try again.
If you start out with ‘you make no sense’ you have already ruined any sort of fruitful conversation. We are most likely both guilty of that flaw.
Can you try to organise your thoughts about 1 particular build, because as you put it here, it seems very messy and unorganised to me? I can’t give a constructive feedback to this, even if I want to.

I know you play a thief, right? That is at least what it looks like from your post-history. Can you begin to try to understand my perspective? My experience for the last 3 years, was that every time I played, I got frustrated by being countered by one class (thief) that always seemed to have the tool for the situation to counter me (as in close to nullify my impact on the match) – because they never have a cd on weaponskills and for some reason always had initiative enough. Much like the frustration you have now. Trust me when I say, that I wish no one should have that frustration.

Poxxia.1547:

Darksteel.8412:

Poxxia.1547:

@Darksteel:
… but then thief-burst is extremely spammy – so is their stealth-abilities. And their cleansing. And their mobility. In fact if that is your understanding, then thieves are just one big spamfest of available skills doing too much.

you are making no sense, it’s the whole picture of mesmer: being able to ignore any burst at any time at will, paired with stealth that rivals that or surpasses that of a thief. ranged heavy aoe bursts that you can barely miss have stunbreak teleport on extremely short cd for an sb especially since it ports you into savety. reflects the mirrored anquish…all this stacked together and some more its just way to much and can’t compare it to thief…at all. I have ALOT less trouble vs thieves then mesmers. I even have less trouble vs celems, mesmer is toxic pure toxic sorry I truly think it is with the new patch’honestly don’t see how any player that like balance doen’t see this or would disagree I also truly believe Anet never intended to make the mesmer for what it is now but gave in to the repetitve cries from players who don’t care about balance but wanted the same or more damage then other classes and simply easily forgetting that the mesmer already has mechanics no other class could ever rival in any way. prepatch mesmer were not up, now they are toxic OP. pop stabi get’s rekt right before u wanna cc…and u get cced as well passive toxicness to the fullest alrdy, this is just one simple example, still manage to somehow pull your burst of…it goes invuln then you lose target cause stealth starts the options are endless paired with way to much damage playing mesmer brings no risk yet all the reward if not more then other zerky classes. it’s toxic yes

Ok – let us try again.
If you start out with ‘you make no sense’ you have already ruined any sort of fruitful conversation. We are most likely both guilty of that flaw.
Can you try to organise your thoughts about 1 particular build, because as you put it here, it seems very messy and unorganised to me? I can’t give a constructive feedback to this, even if I want to.

I know you play a thief, right? That is at least what it looks like from your post-history. Can you begin to try to understand my perspective? My experience for the last 3 years, was that every time I played, I got frustrated by being countered by one class (thief) that always seemed to have the tool for the situation to counter me (as in close to nullify my impact on the match) – because they never have a cd on weaponskills and for some reason always had initiative enough. Much like the frustration you have now. Trust me when I say, that I wish no one should have that frustration.

so the mesmer had 1 hardcounter and now is allowed to except vs celem to pretty much hardcounter all others, hence why im saying things like you make no sense, also no. I do not play thief, I don’t even have a thief and I’m not saying it to go like haha I’m just gonna say I have no thief…I honestly have no thief. Want this to be fruitfull think with me instead of assuming things….what build do I refer too, obviously PU condi/power both are ridiculous right now. But as you said you don’t wish this frustration to others so I would think it’s better to mention things or correct me on what should/could be toned down…cause mesmer needs quite the tone down in as far as I think….either damage or stealth, they can keep the rest cause it’s unique to mesmer and makes it interesting. imo they went hardcore overboard on the damage. I hope this is more clear and specific. Give it more of a role instead of faceroll with all it’s unique and in many cases superior utility skills, if that hurts the pve mesmers too much, then by all means introduce (like gw1 did at some point) different tool tips for pvp and wvw and pvE.

Do not mention SA in this thread that got gutted pretty bad especially for x/d users,do not use the “spam nature” of thief we have limited initiative and each skill has a different purpose, do not mention disengage we wouldn’t have done it if we were going to win,you shouldn’t even compare stealth on thief is baseline design on mesmer it was just extra but it got boosted for no reasons. I have mesmer as well I do not main it but it was pretty obvious that CS and PU were the only thing on the list for nerfs they evaded both their loss.

serenke.4806:

Cynz.9437:

bhagwad.4281:

Can you imagine the outcry if thief got invulnerable frames? . I’m sure thieves would love it though…

and aoe backstab from range… and mutiple ranged stuns dealing 3k dmg that cost 0 initiative… and unavoidable blinds

no, we wouldn’t love it… it would just make pvp totally broken and unenjoyable~

If you see a bunch of illusions running towards you, you can expect to be blown up so dodge or evade it? Oh you get stunned before it lands? Use a stunbreak. You have none? Why not?

You realize that mantra of distraction has 2 casts right(3 if traited)? Add CS and it is a huge reason why people hate mesmers. That coupled with the fact that:

-Illusionary persona was made baseline, so they have probably the safest stomping available with their F4

-They have weapon skills that break stun and on short cooldowns.

-Can rely on phantasms to deal heavy damage while they hide in stealth

-The new torch trait allows Mesmer to restealth very rapidly, essentially rewarding them like crazy for sitting in it.

-Can get bookoo amount of protection with the chaos trait line, protection is a very strong boon.

-already mentioned but, CS is easily abused having a very very short ICD.

I’m sure there is more, but the worst part is all I listed above (minus the extra mantra charge) can be on 1 build. It’s ignorant to list a profession’s strengths all at once but all of that can be done on 1 build.

Darksteel.8412:

so the mesmer had 1 hardcounter and now is allowed to except vs celem to pretty much hardcounter all others, hence why im saying things like you make no sense, also no. I do not play thief, I don’t even have a thief and I’m not saying it to go like haha I’m just gonna say I have no thief…I honestly have no thief. Want this to be fruitfull think with me instead of assuming things….what build do I refer too, obviously PU condi/power both are ridiculous right now. But as you said you don’t wish this frustration to others so I would think it’s better to mention things or correct me on what should/could be toned down…cause mesmer needs quite the tone down in as far as I think….either damage or stealth, they can keep the rest cause it’s unique to mesmer and makes it interesting. imo they went hardcore overboard on the damage. I hope this is more clear and specific. Give it more of a role instead of faceroll with all it’s unique and in many cases superior utility skills, if that hurts the pve mesmers too much, then by all means introduce (like gw1 did at some point) different tool tips for pvp and wvw and pvE.

I am going to split my answer up, hope that is ok. I am too lazy to split your post up, so forgive me, if there is something I forget. Just point me to it, and I will try to give my honest opinion about it.

- Forgive me, I must have confused you with some other guy (also beginning with capital D) who does post a great deal on the thief forum and is quite vocal.

- If you didn’t play mesmer in the last 3 years, I think it would be easy to to overlook how frustrating it was to be hard countered by the class you usually compete with. Most mesmers I talked with felt it was extremely frustrating – some very good mesmers even rerolled to mediocre thieves and had great success. In my book, being hard countered as class is not a small thing – I cannot stress this enough. And no: 2 wrongs don’t make it right; mesmers should not be able to do it to other classes either. I am not sure they do btw.

- Our damage was toned down. And our ability to stun as well. Mantras were nerfed, MB was nerfed. Perhaps that is good to some extend. Wasn’t it enough? But if that is so, then we have to be able to survive as well. Stealth is a cheesy way to survive, agree on that. But if our usual direct counter can counter our survival tool, what good would it be? Yes, the long uptime on stealth gives us a possibility to burst again. And no, I don’t like PU nor stealth in general. On any class. But like it or not: Our role includes burst.

- PU-condi-shatter is imho very strong 1vs1, but as long as there are some very strong cleansing, I doubt it in higher tpvp (which I don’t play at all btw, but one can reason).

- If you want the raw damage toned down, then keep in mind, that most mesmers wanted BD & CS looked at. I haven’t really followed the game lately and I am not sure if they ‘fixed’ BD so you can dodge/evade it. That leaves CS, which was somewhat nerfed with the mantra-nerf. And yes: Unavoidable damage is silly. So what do you want to be nerfed?

A question: Do you in all honesty do the things you can do to avoid mesmers damage mostly? Most times when I die to other mesmers I can’t really say myself, that I did the right things.

The only weapon skill that breaks stun is Swap and we need to have a living iLeap clone not older than a few seconds around for it to work.

Poxxia.1547:

Darksteel.8412:

so the mesmer had 1 hardcounter and now is allowed to except vs celem to pretty much hardcounter all others, hence why im saying things like you make no sense, also no. I do not play thief, I don’t even have a thief and I’m not saying it to go like haha I’m just gonna say I have no thief…I honestly have no thief. Want this to be fruitfull think with me instead of assuming things….what build do I refer too, obviously PU condi/power both are ridiculous right now. But as you said you don’t wish this frustration to others so I would think it’s better to mention things or correct me on what should/could be toned down…cause mesmer needs quite the tone down in as far as I think….either damage or stealth, they can keep the rest cause it’s unique to mesmer and makes it interesting. imo they went hardcore overboard on the damage. I hope this is more clear and specific. Give it more of a role instead of faceroll with all it’s unique and in many cases superior utility skills, if that hurts the pve mesmers too much, then by all means introduce (like gw1 did at some point) different tool tips for pvp and wvw and pvE.

I am going to split my answer up, hope that is ok. I am too lazy to split your post up, so forgive me, if there is something I forget. Just point me to it, and I will try to give my honest opinion about it.

- Forgive me, I must have confused you with some other guy (also beginning with capital D) who does post a great deal on the thief forum and is quite vocal.

- If you didn’t play mesmer in the last 3 years, I think it would be easy to to overlook how frustrating it was to be hard countered by the class you usually compete with. Most mesmers I talked with felt it was extremely frustrating – some very good mesmers even rerolled to mediocre thieves and had great success. In my book, being hard countered as class is not a small thing – I cannot stress this enough. And no: 2 wrongs don’t make it right; mesmers should not be able to do it to other classes either. I am not sure they do btw.

- Our damage was toned down. And our ability to stun as well. Mantras were nerfed, MB was nerfed. Perhaps that is good to some extend. Wasn’t it enough? But if that is so, then we have to be able to survive as well. Stealth is a cheesy way to survive, agree on that. But if our usual direct counter can counter our survival tool, what good would it be? Yes, the long uptime on stealth gives us a possibility to burst again. And no, I don’t like PU nor stealth in general. On any class. But like it or not: Our role includes burst.

- PU-condi-shatter is imho very strong 1vs1, but as long as there are some very strong cleansing, I doubt it in higher tpvp (which I don’t play at all btw, but one can reason).

- If you want the raw damage toned down, then keep in mind, that most mesmers wanted BD & CS looked at. I haven’t really followed the game lately and I am not sure if they ‘fixed’ BD so you can dodge/evade it. That leaves CS, which was somewhat nerfed with the mantra-nerf. And yes: Unavoidable damage is silly. So what do you want to be nerfed?

A question: Do you in all honesty do the things you can do to avoid mesmers damage mostly? Most times when I die to other mesmers I can’t really say myself, that I did the right things.

I’m not ging to read any of this and no longer continue the convo with you in prarticualr, I hope this is ok…ut’s cause I’m lazy too

NinjaEd.3946:

serenke.4806:

Cynz.9437:

bhagwad.4281:

Can you imagine the outcry if thief got invulnerable frames? . I’m sure thieves would love it though…

and aoe backstab from range… and mutiple ranged stuns dealing 3k dmg that cost 0 initiative… and unavoidable blinds

no, we wouldn’t love it… it would just make pvp totally broken and unenjoyable~

If you see a bunch of illusions running towards you, you can expect to be blown up so dodge or evade it? Oh you get stunned before it lands? Use a stunbreak. You have none? Why not?

You realize that mantra of distraction has 2 casts right(3 if traited)? Add CS and it is a huge reason why people hate mesmers. That coupled with the fact that:

-Illusionary persona was made baseline, so they have probably the safest stomping available with their F4

-They have weapon skills that break stun and on short cooldowns.

-Can rely on phantasms to deal heavy damage while they hide in stealth

-The new torch trait allows Mesmer to restealth very rapidly, essentially rewarding them like crazy for sitting in it.

-Can get bookoo amount of protection with the chaos trait line, protection is a very strong boon.

-already mentioned but, CS is easily abused having a very very short ICD.

I’m sure there is more, but the worst part is all I listed above (minus the extra mantra charge) can be on 1 build. It’s ignorant to list a profession’s strengths all at once but all of that can be done on 1 build.

Hmm. How would you fit all that in 1 build? Torch-trait (Pledge) = illusions, CS = Dom (excludes 15% dmg from illusions), BD & DE are basically core for shatter (now that mantras were nerfed) = Dueling, PU = Chaos. That is 4 lines.
And if you don’t take Desperate Decoy you can take P-Fury, but then I have to ask, why people just let phantasms/clones live – it is not like there isn’t enough AoE/cleave in the game. And now there is no down-side to it.
I would say, that now mantras are nerfed it locks our gameplay and makes us more predictable, but I take it you know that.

Sagat.3285:

I have mesmer as well I do not main it but it was pretty obvious that CS and PU were the only thing on the list for nerfs they evaded both their loss.

I’d trade both CS and PU for my old Mirror Blade back in a heartbeat (as well as my Harmonious Mantras damage buff back at least for PvE).

we already got nerfed now its +1 year out of meta again

Extreme.8350:

we already got nerfed now its +1 year out of meta again

like what is the meta now? 2 eles a thief a guard and something? warrior? that means half of classes are “out of the meta” that’s no excuse to be stupendusly OP compared to the rest (except celem) in any other pvp game/mode in a lesser organized way.this is why I say people make no sense

So, you just declared the meta to be “2 eles, thief, guard, warr” and yet claim mesmer, which doesn’t even fit in your meta, to be op?

Balancing has to be made for the highest skill level, since that’s where tournaments are fought for real prices and balance actually matters.

Darksteel.8412:

Extreme.8350:

we already got nerfed now its +1 year out of meta again

like what is the meta now? 2 eles a thief a guard and something? warrior? that means half of classes are “out of the meta” that’s no excuse to be stupendusly OP compared to the rest (except celem) in any other pvp game/mode in a lesser organized way.this is why I say people make no sense

u know what is meta bunkers thats right elementalist is king of the hill as usual

If i am going to play Mesmer, ima go stealth and shatter. not gonna play Illusionary summon 2years back when, stand still and let the A.i do the job and self proclaimed i am skilled, not gonna happened not a chance. stop complaining and let Mesmer wear his shoes.

Iavra.8510:

So, you just declared the meta to be “2 eles, thief, guard, warr” and yet claim mesmer, which doesn’t even fit in your meta, to be op?

Balancing has to be made for the highest skill level, since that’s where tournaments are fought for real prices and balance actually matters.

first of all if you can read comprehensively and in context, your so called counter arguement actually does not work in your favour, second of all: so for the rest of the community that wants to play gw2 pvp but isn’t super elite (like you most likely) should have a very annoying/frustrating unappealing game experience in pvp that is basically dominated by mesmers everywhere cause it’s so freaking easy and forgiving to play. Nice try. Also if balancing is ment for the highest way of play and mesmer isn’t their anyway…maybe it actually should be toned down for the lesser elite/advanced players….dude it’s mesmers aeverywhere now. Even mesmer mains (some) are saying its abit to much of a joke now

another example, was rampage going to be huge part of the meta before the nerf on the highest level of play… no I don’t think so, in fact I know for sure it would never ever be real meta. Yet it got nerfed…cause for alot of people it was highly frustrating to deal with…mesmer currently is ALOT worse then prenerfed rampage was can anyone somehow comprehend this way of reasoning?

Ps. I main warrior I could have gone ballistic about how not OP rampage was cause it’s not in the hardcore meta, but I also understood that for a larger audience the skill might indeed be abit to much to deal with, tho I’m the SoR only type of warrior so I couldn’t realy care, but I could also have hardcore defended the skill so I could use it nice and easy in the lesser (where we are all at) elite/organized or whatever you want to call it… league.

Two of my close friends had a mesmer main, and I had a mesmer second. We do not play it anymore. And I am really sick and tired of seeing pu mesmers constantly with 12+ secs stealth spam and insta-bursts. You can argue about balance, nerd etc. Dd ele and mesmers are everywhere. Can be killed but come on, it is boring. I nearly cried with pure joy when two engineers attacked me yesterday. Was a rare occasion.

I remember the time where mesmer, to fight any class, had to bait and forced the other player to overcommit and pile up countless of mistakes. I remember the time where mesmer was fodder for most of the class in team fight because it barely excelled in 1v1 fight because of the MB shatter. I remember how thieves did everything we did and so much better, I remember how frustrating it was to not barely be able to make a mistake and how unforgiving mesmer was compared to other we fought.
How not taking ip was the death of us and how we were forced to take DE to feel that we had enough clone production in order to catch that mistake the other player did.
I rememver how funny I thought it was to see a mesmer on the other team and simply hoped he didn’t use or knew how to use portal… Hard and high skill ceiling? Yes. But it’s a very frustrating way of playing and not very rewarding in my opinion

Many people are criticizing these days, because mesmer received many buffs. Over the top for some? Yes. Justified for others? Yes.
Some of the critics are justified, acceptable and more than welcome because there are real issues. BD was an issue, and CS still is. So is PU. I am saddened by the Hm and MB nerf, but I c an live with it. I am saddened by the fix on mantras, but I understand the complaints.
We were one of the class that lacked the most condi cleanse in the game with little capability to survive outside of our burst. We were the class that only masters could do sensibly well with.
But what irks me up the most are those complaints that come out of nowhere… I saw whining about blurred frenzy being op, about phase retreat and diversion being op… You know, I’m fairly sure the community whine for the sake of whining… I’m not going on the warrior forum qqing about rampage, nor am I whining about those kitten condi engis even if I hate them. Because these class? I don’t know them. I’ve never played them and I can’t offer proper critics because I lack understanding of their mechanics…
And I understand the case is different because the class, for these two profession, is not considered as strong as mesmer currently is. I said strong, not op. I don’t consider mesmer op and I think most of the community needs to take a good look at the definition to remind themselves what op means. Most people need to take a good look at how mesmer work, because some of these things I see, some of
These whining are just laughable and pathetic, screaming how clueless some of you are. I am open to critics, and I am capable enough to notice the inherent flaws and things that need to be brought in line, but some of these messages shouldn’t even exist because it’s full of half truth and pointless misinformation.

Oh and for those mesmers who say the class is fine as it is, let me tell you some things. When there is such a big amount t of cries from the community about something being out of line, it usually is a sign that something is wrong. The deny makes it worse and only make you look like disillusioned fan who refuse to seek balance and fairness. Should all the complaints be listened to? No, but amongst all the kitten there is bound to be justified things that need real fixing.

Poxxia.1547:

Same. How can you not take two stun breaks in PvP? I even experimented with a build that used three. If you get stunned and don’t break it, you’re gonna die no matter what class your opponent is playing.

Pepsi.8907:

When there is such a big amount t of cries from the community about something being out of line, it usually is a sign that something is wrong.

Or, the majority of every PvP community is always a bunch of scrubs, in the Sirlin sense of the word: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Sad to say, there are some people who play PvP and want to learn how to do it well. There are others who just want to hop in a screw around and expect the game to cater to them. The latter group will always get frustrated in a competitive game, even if it’s perfectly balanced, and they’ll usually hop on the forums to kitten about whatever the last thing that beat them was. See also: the Ele threads in this very forum.

NinjaEd.3946:

You realize that mantra of distraction has 2 casts right(3 if traited)? Add CS and it is a huge reason why people hate mesmers.

Ok, so then why is this thread about stealth?

That coupled with the fact that:

OMFG, Elementalists have TWENTY weapon skills on their bar at all times! So OP!

tobascodagama.2961:

Pepsi.8907:

When there is such a big amount t of cries from the community about something being out of line, it usually is a sign that something is wrong.

Or, the majority of every PvP community is always a bunch of scrubs, in the Sirlin sense of the word: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Sad to say, there are some people who play PvP and want to learn how to do it well. There are others who just want to hop in a screw around and expect the game to cater to them. The latter group will always get frustrated in a competitive game, even if it’s perfectly balanced, and they’ll usually hop on the forums to kitten about whatever the last thing that beat them was. See also: the Ele threads in this very forum.

What can I say x) I am an optimist who believe in the good intent of people

the real problem here is that thieves while they can perma-invis (with only one build mind which doesn’t get used really. is that most of the thieves stealth’s are interuptable while only 1.5 skills of the mesmer skills are (mass invis /veil) while skills like SR the 2-5 combo on d/p hide in shadows can all be interrupted/knocked out of.
2nd thief has a lower base HP and has to be in someone’s face to do a lot of dmg and gets cc’d easely in the process. yes thieves have a trait that teleports you away when stunned but mesmer has a similar trait. thieves are actually worse at stealthing then the mesmer atm yes the have a longer uptime off stealth but its harder to actually stealth as a thief. not too mention that both the classes have access to blind.however thief has to be in the targets face while mesmer only has to for one of their blinds. then lastly aside from the higher health pool the mesmer has a lot of invul which makes up for their shorter stealth up time. really the only time you see a mesmer is when the have you down or when they are invulnerable/unreachable. its just ridiculus
the condi pu build is the worst and pretty much uncounterable on any class but d/d ele. and then its not a matter of who wins but who runs away in time

lloydst.6985:

the real problem here is that thieves

Mesmer is by design a ninja class and not a sustain they survive by avoiding damage.

Extreme.8350:

lloydst.6985:

the real problem here is that thieves

Mesmer is by design a ninja class and not a sustain they survive by avoiding damage.

mesmer is by design a magic user that uses clones/mantra’s to control/confuse their enemies you must be confused thieves are the real ninja class not mesmers

lloydst.6985:

the real problem here is that thieves while they can perma-invis (with only one build mind which doesn’t get used really. is that most of the thieves stealth’s are interuptable while only 1.5 skills of the mesmer skills are (mass invis /veil) while skills like SR the 2-5 combo on d/p hide in shadows can all be interrupted/knocked out of.
2nd thief has a lower base HP and has to be in someone’s face to do a lot of dmg and gets cc’d easely in the process. yes thieves have a trait that teleports you away when stunned but mesmer has a similar trait. thieves are actually worse at stealthing then the mesmer atm yes the have a longer uptime off stealth but its harder to actually stealth as a thief. not too mention that both the classes have access to blind.however thief has to be in the targets face while mesmer only has to for one of their blinds. then lastly aside from the higher health pool the mesmer has a lot of invul which makes up for their shorter stealth up time. really the only time you see a mesmer is when the have you down or when they are invulnerable/unreachable. its just ridiculus
the condi pu build is the worst and pretty much uncounterable on any class but d/d ele. and then its not a matter of who wins but who runs away in time

Um I think your knowledge is woefully outdated.
The trait that teleports thieves away got removed.
All Mesmer blinds except chaos armour proc have to be close 240 range.
Saying perma stealth is only possible on thief with one build but then not mentioning the same is true of mesmers.

Thieves have high stealth uptime with all builds except PP and SP especially if picking SA or did we all forget the C&D thieves that used to troll people in keeps for an hour in WvW? (I know PvP forum but using it as a good example of high stealth uptime)

As for the condi PU build. Nerf the Mesmer torch trait or flat out change it and you will find mesmer stealth falls into line very nicely. It massively over performs if camping stealth (prestige on 13s CD if camping stealth) and woefully under performs on its own.

I think a lot of the “Mesmer problems” are really learn to play problems just as rampage was more of a learn to play imo. Mesmer used to be an easy pick up, now it isn’t, just need time to adapt.

Oh and anyone using stealth and mantra of distraction probably has no condition cleanse so load em high and watch em fall.

Edit: For the broader question of why more stealth. The answer is simple if you look back at all the changes. Every single clone death trait was removed. Yep, there is exactly 0 penalty to removing clones and phantasms now which is part of their burst/dps. Additionally this means the Mesmer lost a lot of its control conditions like weakness and cripple which means compensation was needed elsewhere.

’Cause Anet likes cheese.

Stealth, Cheddar, Swiss, Gouda, any kind really.

apharma.3741:

lloydst.6985:

the real problem here is

Um I think your knowledge is woefully outdated.

see … that how you respond.
its true but the trait is now hard to catch granted you don’t TP away anymore

Pepsi.8907:

I remember the time where mesmer, to fight any class, had to bait and forced the other player to overcommit and pile up countless of mistakes. I remember the time where mesmer was fodder for most of the class in team fight because it barely excelled in 1v1 fight because of the MB shatter. I remember how thieves did everything we did and so much better, I remember how frustrating it was to not barely be able to make a mistake and how unforgiving mesmer was compared to other we fought.
How not taking ip was the death of us and how we were forced to take DE to feel that we had enough clone production in order to catch that mistake the other player did.
I rememver how funny I thought it was to see a mesmer on the other team and simply hoped he didn’t use or knew how to use portal… Hard and high skill ceiling? Yes. But it’s a very frustrating way of playing and not very rewarding in my opinion

Many people are criticizing these days, because mesmer received many buffs. Over the top for some? Yes. Justified for others? Yes.
Some of the critics are justified, acceptable and more than welcome because there are real issues. BD was an issue, and CS still is. So is PU. I am saddened by the Hm and MB nerf, but I c an live with it. I am saddened by the fix on mantras, but I understand the complaints.
We were one of the class that lacked the most condi cleanse in the game with little capability to survive outside of our burst. We were the class that only masters could do sensibly well with.
But what irks me up the most are those complaints that come out of nowhere… I saw whining about blurred frenzy being op, about phase retreat and diversion being op… You know, I’m fairly sure the community whine for the sake of whining… I’m not going on the warrior forum qqing about rampage, nor am I whining about those kitten condi engis even if I hate them. Because these class? I don’t know them. I’ve never played them and I can’t offer proper critics because I lack understanding of their mechanics…
And I understand the case is different because the class, for these two profession, is not considered as strong as mesmer currently is. I said strong, not op. I don’t consider mesmer op and I think most of the community needs to take a good look at the definition to remind themselves what op means. Most people need to take a good look at how mesmer work, because some of these things I see, some of
These whining are just laughable and pathetic, screaming how clueless some of you are. I am open to critics, and I am capable enough to notice the inherent flaws and things that need to be brought in line, but some of these messages shouldn’t even exist because it’s full of half truth and pointless misinformation.

Oh and for those mesmers who say the class is fine as it is, let me tell you some things. When there is such a big amount t of cries from the community about something being out of line, it usually is a sign that something is wrong. The deny makes it worse and only make you look like disillusioned fan who refuse to seek balance and fairness. Should all the complaints be listened to? No, but amongst all the kitten there is bound to be justified things that need real fixing.

+1 . The clutter makes it hard to be constructive though. I do find mesmers a bit OTT, but not in the way some here do.

tobascodagama.2961:

NinjaEd.3946:

You realize that mantra of distraction has 2 casts right(3 if traited)? Add CS and it is a huge reason why people hate mesmers.

Ok, so then why is this thread about stealth?

That coupled with the fact that:

OMFG, Elementalists have TWENTY weapon skills on their bar at all times! So OP!

I didn’t make the thread, was responding to the person who think that clones running towards someone is as simple as avoiding them by walking away when there is CS and mantra of distraction.

Not sure what your second part is referring to. I listed a bunch of strengths that can be found on 1 single build, a build many people run (or some very close variation) and are ******** at for it. If you wana talk about twenty weapon skills being the reason ele is op you clearly aren’t here for a rational discussion.

Pepsi.8907:

I remember the time where mesmer, to fight any class, had to bait and forced the other player to overcommit and pile up countless of mistakes. I remember the time where mesmer was fodder for most of the class in team fight because it barely excelled in 1v1 fight because of the MB shatter. I remember how thieves did everything we did and so much better, I remember how frustrating it was to not barely be able to make a mistake and how unforgiving mesmer was compared to other we fought.
How not taking ip was the death of us and how we were forced to take DE to feel that we had enough clone production in order to catch that mistake the other player did.
I rememver how funny I thought it was to see a mesmer on the other team and simply hoped he didn’t use or knew how to use portal… Hard and high skill ceiling? Yes. But it’s a very frustrating way of playing and not very rewarding in my opinion

Many people are criticizing these days, because mesmer received many buffs. Over the top for some? Yes. Justified for others? Yes.
Some of the critics are justified, acceptable and more than welcome because there are real issues. BD was an issue, and CS still is. So is PU. I am saddened by the Hm and MB nerf, but I c an live with it. I am saddened by the fix on mantras, but I understand the complaints.
We were one of the class that lacked the most condi cleanse in the game with little capability to survive outside of our burst. We were the class that only masters could do sensibly well with.
But what irks me up the most are those complaints that come out of nowhere… I saw whining about blurred frenzy being op, about phase retreat and diversion being op… You know, I’m fairly sure the community whine for the sake of whining… I’m not going on the warrior forum qqing about rampage, nor am I whining about those kitten condi engis even if I hate them. Because these class? I don’t know them. I’ve never played them and I can’t offer proper critics because I lack understanding of their mechanics…
And I understand the case is different because the class, for these two profession, is not considered as strong as mesmer currently is. I said strong, not op. I don’t consider mesmer op and I think most of the community needs to take a good look at the definition to remind themselves what op means. Most people need to take a good look at how mesmer work, because some of these things I see, some of
These whining are just laughable and pathetic, screaming how clueless some of you are. I am open to critics, and I am capable enough to notice the inherent flaws and things that need to be brought in line, but some of these messages shouldn’t even exist because it’s full of half truth and pointless misinformation.

Oh and for those mesmers who say the class is fine as it is, let me tell you some things. When there is such a big amount t of cries from the community about something being out of line, it usually is a sign that something is wrong. The deny makes it worse and only make you look like disillusioned fan who refuse to seek balance and fairness. Should all the complaints be listened to? No, but amongst all the kitten there is bound to be justified things that need real fixing.

Fantastic post, well said.

I really get kittened off with the nonsensical complaints over things like blurred frenzy, distortion and other rubbish most likely from players who barely play or never play Mesmer. Especially mainhand sword as a whole – which has already been gutted far more than it needed to be. MH sword requires you to be in melee range to deal any damage (which in general we can’t do for extended periods of time like other classes, even on our tanky builds), has the most unreliable leap in the game (complaints about swap being a stunbreak? Seriously?!?), and the only evade roots us meaning it’s not only easy for an enemy to avoid the damage (because ileap swap into blurred frenzy is stupidly easy to avoid), you also know exactly where the Mesmer is and can prepare your burst to unload it in full as soon as the evade duration ends.

Even though sword in pve may be the go to damage weapon, I’d say in pvp it is mostly a utility weapon so any further nerfs to that utility will render it entirely useless as everyone will choose scepter (which is a better offensive weapon even in power builds), greatsword or staff over it.

It is simple, Mesmer has so much stealth because they got over tuned. They got every single weakness removed and every advantage pushed forward. And you got this abomination now.

Well, I’ll repeat myself regarding Anet’s balance approach.

It’s like, letting them in the kitchen and tell them to take a kitchen knife and cut a little bit of cheese, but instead, they grab a chainsaw and cut the cheese along with the table.

That’s how Balance in Gw2 looks like.

Tho it’s funny how Ele is resistant to it.

I sense conspiracy and bribes here~

livlaender.8790:

i think the problem is, that mesmers can do dps while being stealthed, becouse of phantasms

if phantasm attacks would break mesmers stealth other classes would get a solid counter play and the mesmer would need to think, if he wants to dps enemy, or to play defensive in stealth

Thanks a pretty good idea, I also thought of mass invis not being useable while in stealth, so If the mesmer we’re to go in extended stealth, he would have to use mass invis first, leaving lots of room for interuption, or force the mesmer to blow distortion which is a huge price to pay.

I think having ranger pets, thief thieves and engi turrets breaking stealth is only fair, then.

Iavra.8510:

I think having ranger pets, thief thieves and engi turrets breaking stealth is only fair, then.

Find me a thief using AI and I’ll bet you they would have no problem with that. Most likely because they are already not caring for slotting those skills over the reliable skills.

Iavra.8510:

I think having ranger pets, thief thieves and engi turrets breaking stealth is only fair, then.

Lol we’ll take it.

We need 4 bounces on mirror blade and mantra recharge in background back.
Its sad to see how anet give in to the qq of a balanced class.
There a bunker builds who barely take any damage from my burst i hit one guy for 2k with izerker all 4 hits then what happens a engineer 2 shot me with rifle.
You need more than that to burst i know. But that is the hardest hitting ability.
Mesmer need help again to stay competitive. No wonder everyone is camping stealth.

Though mantras recharging in background was op, especially with the short cd they have.

Extreme.8350:

We need 4 bounces on mirror blade and mantra recharge in background back.
Its sad to see how anet give in to the qq of a balanced class.
There a bunker builds who barely take any damage from my burst i hit one guy for 2k with izerker all 4 hits then what happens a engineer 2 shot me with rifle.
You need more than that to burst i know. But that is the hardest hitting ability.
Mesmer need help again to stay competitive. No wonder everyone is camping stealth.

No no they didn’t listen to the QQ at all if they did only CS and PU would have been nerfed. They did a “spin the wheel” over what to nerf to upset mesmers.

Iavra.8510:

Though mantras recharging in background was op, especially with the short cd they have.

Well how about a compromise recharge after first charge and cooldown increased?