Guild Wars 2

I just watched the twitchy thingy-majig and got slightly disappointed.

Don’t get me wrong, it looks quite literally orders of magnitude greater than conquest, but it just looks like they said – how can we implement League of Legends into our game?
When they first made their pvp, they asked how they could implement FPS into their game. They realized, “WAIT – our game is not an FPS!” (and kudos for that realization by the way.) However, now they seem to think their game is a MOBA.

I could write a small novel on why this is a terrible idea and what they could do to improve themselves and differentiate themselves in the market – but I’ve done that before and got no where (for those curious, look in my signature.) With that being said….

Why is it that a company who focused so heavily on creating a completely unique pve game experience and went through so many risks to try to setup something unique in that environment, and then go to pvp (the thing GW1 was most known for) and start copying other game modes? This conundrum will always deeply confuse and depress me.

I agree with op. Trying to merge moba with mmorpg is bad for the game.

The 2 game modes are contradicting each other. Mobas have basically 1 map, 1 game mode and 100% of the balance in done focusing that one mode. Mmorpgs in the other hand have much more game modes, such as dungeons, pve, diverse pvp modes, etc. Making the balance trying to be a moba is why the rest of the game has 0 balance.

Now we get a new map, stronghold. How are you going to balance it now? Some builds that don’t seem broken in conquest will be in stronghold due to no necessity to fight in nodes. Some builds that are good in conquest will be too weak in stronghold. How are you going to balanced it?

Your concern is hilarious to me.. I can’t help but feel that those who made GW2 are a 100% different group of people from who made GW1..
A snippet from the post in my signature (I want you to note that this post was done the September after the game was released):

But, guildwars 1 was by far closer than any other rpg has come to a fantastic and fundamentally outstanding pvp game.

There were two main reasons for this. One of which Anet clearly understood and one which I don’t think they grasped to the fullest extent.

- The first reason is their separation of pvp and pve into two distinct realms. This was huge in guildwars 1 and helped to make it the pvp oriented game that it later became. They learned this and it is a great thing they continued to bring that idea into GW2.
- The second reason is the extreme focus on a truly team oriented combat. I don’t think Anet truly grasped how powerful this was. Guildwars 1 is the only game where the concept of self was moved from individuals to teams. Sure, towards the end, some teams got carried by really good players. At the start however, when GW1 was at it’s prime, it required every player to be on their game to do the best they can. The team utterly failed if a single player made a mistake at a wrong time.

Note – when they released the game, they noted an intent to keep the game modes balances separate, but I guess they went back on that now?

Stronghold seems pretty unique to me. Every game is inspired by another game.

Is there a gamemode that is unique to MMO’s? Not that I know of.
Might be better to wait till you get to play it.

I think its fine. Its less clashy like Mobas, and I feel it has more room for build uniqueness. Not to mention, the core gw2 mechanics are well > MOBAs. I’d rather let it play out before saying its a TOTAL rip off, though it clearly has parts taken from other things.

That’s to be expected though. GW2 didn’t create the warrior class. :P

butch.8136:

Stronghold seems pretty unique to me. Every game is inspired by another game.

Is there a gamemode that is unique to MMO’s? Not that I know of.
Might be better to wait till you get to play it.

Actually.. There is a game mode that is completely unique to MMOs – GW1 GvG.
Now, there are a lot of smaller aspects combined to make it unique, which they themselves are not unique. You have to note what concepts are being taken, the spirit of GvG was and still is the most unique game mode out there.

You could tell how the way of thinking went, even in their little clip when they called the gaurds, ‘basically turrets.’ They made this with the explicit intent of trying to capture LoL and MoBA gamemodes.

And by the way, ‘wait until you try it’ is sort of silly. I could tell you exactly the problems that would happen with conquest maps and its the reason conquest will NEVER be a good solid competitive game mode.

But – in all honesty though, it could be a competitiveish gamemode. But it certainly won’t be genre breaking or standout because it tries too hard to take the place of something that already works. At best, you are getting only a tiny segment of the audience you SHOULD be capturing.

ronpierce.2760:

I think its fine. Its less clashy like Mobas, and I feel it has more room for build uniqueness. Not to mention, the core gw2 mechanics are well > MOBAs. I’d rather let it play out before saying its a TOTAL rip off, though it clearly has parts taken from other things.

That’s to be expected though. GW2 didn’t create the warrior class. :P

I didn’t declare it a ripoff really, but when you make a gamemode that attempts to appeal to the same play styles and mentalities of another already existing gamemode or genre, you put yourself in the position of competing with that gamemode or genre. The mentality of objective control and lanes takes directly from mobas and the fact that it is a primary attempt to focus heavily on map strategy over a lot of other mental decisions you would expect from RPG players.

Think about it like this, as a player of RPGs, there are certain expectations you have of an RPG. RPGs tend to be more team focused, build focuses, and you play in a cohesive fashion. When people go to play a MoBA, it is much more individualistic when talking about the micro sense of combat and teamwork comes heavily in your objective control and ‘map pressure.’
When you attempt to make a game, call it an RPG, but give it mechanics of something else, you’ve essentially declared that you only wish to grab a subsection of the audiences in both genres. If they instead focused on a gamemode that forced legitimate team focused combat which revolved around playing in a cohesive fashion, THAT would be a true RPG gamemode.

Well, I tend to think of it like this, a lot of people like the idea behind MOBAs but prefer MMORPG mechanics. This sort of caters to a hybrid spectrum that raw mobas really can’t cater to. Like me, I hate mobas. I hate the currency systems they run, I hate the general play of them. But this sounds great and very fitting for me. I think you can take a general theme and apply it differently and come up with an entirely new concept, just with obvious roots.

I agree with the OP, just like I agreed in the thread from September 2012.

Here we are, over 2 years later, and ArenaNet seems to have finally came to a possible solution that was a basis of players’ decisions to leave or ignore PvP originally.
They’re potentially close, but so were they with Conquest at first glance. We all know how it turned out to be.

It is hard for a GW1 player not to think about all this and think that those are the same mistakes all over again.
Is Stronghold going to be a success? Yes, considering how big of a failure Conquest is.
Is Stronghold going to be the best PvP mode ever? Unlikely, considering how dull it looks compared to both DOTA2 and GW1 GvG.

ronpierce.2760:

Well, I tend to think of it like this, a lot of people like the idea behind MOBAs but prefer MMORPG mechanics. This sort of caters to a hybrid spectrum that raw mobas really can’t cater to. Like me, I hate mobas. I hate the currency systems they run, I hate the general play of them. But this sounds great and very fitting for me. I think you can take a general theme and apply it differently and come up with an entirely new concept, just with obvious roots.

I think that’s the same mentality that Anet has as well. There’s a problem with that though.. Think about it like a venn diagram. You have the entire population of players who like MMOs and the entire population of players who like MOBAs. The combination of the two is a smaller segment of either total population. So instead of being true to your game mode, you have to appeal to both. What’s worse is that since you are going against the MoBA community, you have to fight against the things both MoBA players want to play AS WELL as the things RPG players want to play. So of that small intersection, you now need to find those who would rather play this than other alternatives such as League as well as those who would rather play this other than alternatives such as WoW.

Point being, although that mentality can be nice if you live in that small population, you won’t get a large audience because frankly, the audience you’ve selected to appeal to is small! (For a matter of fact, that’s one of the reasons no one stuck around for GW2 conquest, it wasn’t QUITE what they wanted from their respective genres AND there were better alternatives.)

Your best chance of success would be to make a game that is TRUE to what you are and has the SMALLEST competition. There is no true competitive RPG gamemode and you ARE an RPG. Seems logical really.

Diage.6451:

Why is it that a company who focused so heavily on creating a completely unique pve game experience and went through so many risks to try to setup something unique in that environment, and then go to pvp (the thing GW1 was most known for) and start copying other game modes? This conundrum will always deeply confuse and depress me.

You have not played GW1. Proof: You don’t know about the popular game mode Stronghold is based on (Fort Aspenwood), which was already in GW1.

GW2 newbs are funny.

leman.7682:

Is Stronghold going to be a success? Yes, considering how big of a failure Conquest is.
Is Stronghold going to be the best PvP mode ever? Unlikely, considering how dull it looks compared to both DOTA2 and GW1 GvG.

That phrases my thought process on this perfectly.

Jamais vu.5284:

Diage.6451:

Why is it that a company who focused so heavily on creating a completely unique pve game experience and went through so many risks to try to setup something unique in that environment, and then go to pvp (the thing GW1 was most known for) and start copying other game modes? This conundrum will always deeply confuse and depress me.

You have not played GW1. Proof: You don’t know about the popular game mode Stronghold is based on (Fort Aspenwood), which was already in GW1.

GW2 newbs are funny.

Heh.. I played GW1 for 6 years, specifically playing GvG in 5.5 of those 6 years. The fact that someone comes to me in a competitive game mode discussion fighting for Fort Aspenwood speaks directly to the issue of audience appeal that Anet has. Fort Aspenwood is not even remotely close to anything that could or ever would be a competitive format. Sure, it was fun place to pvp for pvers, but it was not a true pvp in any sense of the word.

Jamais vu.5284:

You have not played GW1. Proof: You don’t know about the popular game mode Stronghold is based on (Fort Aspenwood), which was already in GW1.

GW2 newbs are funny.

What an utterly ridiculous attempt at discrediting the OP. Stronghold looks FAR different from FA. It also looks less appealing.
It has much more in common with GvG – two sides, two guild halls, two lords, trebs.
I agree it has parts of FA, but attacking the OP in such a childish manner requires me to step in.

I had millions of Balthazar Faction and played all game modes in GW1

Personally, I think it’s a great thing to mimic successful games in our game. Success breeds success.

Games copy or take inspiration from other games all the time (could substitute with other types of media too). It is not inherently bad as you are implying.

Also, seems to me like they are picking and choosing the elements of a typical moba game that they think works best in a guild wars 2 setting rather than just copy >>>> paste and that really is the best way to do it.

If arena net continued, copied Guild Wars, here would result be times X 2 for Guild Wars 2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

http://www.thetoptens.com/mmorpg-games/guild-wars-1622.asp

“Guild wars is a free mmorpg and it is fun, competitive and has brilliant graphics.
Buy this game!”

“Best game ever! Can’t belive how fun I practily died for real ha”

“Guildwars is the only MMO out there not trying to constanlty dip their fingers in to your walltet/bank account. They uphold the values of true gamers, you buy and you play, not you buy and you pay more and more to play”.

“Best pvp ever, Guild vs Guild and Hero Ascent was so awesome it kept people playing this game for years, even now GvG is still played.”

I research; Guild Wars was not perfect game but worked with player to make game challenge-fun and worked with player to make game better. Why not keep same principle?, why not keep same vision? why not keep same goal? why not keep same focus? why not keep same mission? why not improve all of it?

(Example; if a car company want to copy other car company car, would it make sense to improve the copy? so why chose the path of not copying the other company car and make itself worse than the copy?)

Guild Wars 2 did not copy other game; it is own creation. So why no other game even new game copy Guild Wars 2? There is reason why no other mmo game copying Guild Wars 2?

I wish they would copy games of the same MMO genre like World of Wartcraft and bring in arenas, the most esportz PvP of them all!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Goatjugsoup.8637:

Games copy or take inspiration from other games all the time (could substitute with other types of media too). It is not inherently bad as you are implying.

Also, seems to me like they are picking and choosing the elements of a typical moba game that they think works best in a guild wars 2 setting rather than just copy >>>> paste and that really is the best way to do it.

There’s something different happening here though.
I can almost imagine the thought process from start to finish when they were making this game mode, especially since it sounded almost like they initially copied and pasted Moba game play in (this is inferred from some of the comments in the twitch video.) I am fairly certain that the way they went into the conversation about creating the game mode was, ‘how do we implement this game play within our game?’

That is substantially different then them having their own game idea, and borrowing from other games to enhance their core idea. And by the way, you ever notice how each genre effectively has 1 power house anymore and they are seldom if ever knocked off that despite HUGE numbers of attempts? CS, WoW, LoL – try to make copies and borrow from them all you want, marginally better improvements on already existing ideas won’t take down the games that already have the substantial playerbase and market share established.

Everything that can be done has already been done in games. So you can only copy it and try to improve it.

MOBAs are vastly popular and successful atm, so it makes sense that Anet would try to emulate them in order to revitalize the pvp scene.

Malediktus.3740:

Everything that can be done has already been done in games. So you can only copy it and try to improve it.

…And then Mobas were created. Besides, there isn’t a competitive RPG.. the only people who did anything close to that was GW1.

Heh…

Harbinger.8637:

MOBAs are vastly popular and successful atm, so it makes sense that Anet would try to emulate them in order to revitalize the pvp scene.

Ya, and the scene is already dominated by someone and you would have to somehow magically take market share from them if you wanted to compete for it. Why do that when you can create your own thing and fight for a new spot in the competitive gaming scene? That’s kind of a silly argument, no one will knock League off the top MoBA spot. Even if someone made a superior game, the fact that they have as much of a fanbase as they do means you won’t be able to take them down.

Stronghold is less like MOBA and more like payload.

God forbid developers borrow aspects of other competing games in an attempt to improve a game.

And hell, Moba elements seem a good fit for an MMO. Why not experiment?

A PVP map with towers and enemy unit hordes coming down the lanes sounds fun IMO.

Why wouldn’t ArenaNet copy ideas from the most popular esports in the world?

Liberis.9573:

Why wouldn’t ArenaNet copy ideas from the most popular esports in the world?

Wait there. Everytime someone suggest to copy WoW the most successful mmorpg in the entire history people come here with the “gw is original, there are a bunch of other games around. go play that other game instead of changing this one” excuse.

So what is next? Get fps elements because cod, cs and bf are popular? Shouldn’t we get WoW raids then?

Diage.6451:

Malediktus.3740:

Everything that can be done has already been done in games. So you can only copy it and try to improve it.

…And then Mobas were created. Besides, there isn’t a competitive RPG.. the only people who did anything close to that was GW1.

Heh…

“were” = past tense
the more stuff got invented already, the harder it becomes to make a true invention without just finding a new name for it.

Malediktus.3740:

Diage.6451:

Malediktus.3740:

Everything that can be done has already been done in games. So you can only copy it and try to improve it.

…And then Mobas were created. Besides, there isn’t a competitive RPG.. the only people who did anything close to that was GW1.

Heh…

“were” = past tense
the more stuff got invented already, the harder it becomes to make a true invention without just finding a new name for it.

Before MoBAs were created, no one knew about MoBAs…. You can’t now magically say, ‘oh well back then we didn’t explore just that one avenue, but now we got everything!’
Besides, the irony is I am not asking for something 100% new – I am asking for them to explore the thing they ALREADY did in the past and not just leave it to rot.

Liberis.9573:

Why wouldn’t ArenaNet copy ideas from the most popular esports in the world?

Because that game already exists. Whats the best they can hope for? A nearly identical play style game which seeks to capture from the same competitive audience but fails to take market share since LoL is already so well established?

And by the way, I understand that the current iteration of the game is not identical to a MoBA. But go through and listen to their cast and pay attention to how they discuss it. You can tell that many of the mechanics they placed around the map were modeled after game aspects or ideas borrowed from MoBAs. They even talked about why they COULDN’T make it even MORE like them, which should be evidence enough as to what their intent was.

DarkSyze.8627:

If arena net continued, copied Guild Wars, here would result be times X 2 for Guild Wars 2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

http://www.thetoptens.com/mmorpg-games/guild-wars-1622.asp

“Guild wars is a free mmorpg and it is fun, competitive and has brilliant graphics.
Buy this game!”

“Best game ever! Can’t belive how fun I practily died for real ha”

“Guildwars is the only MMO out there not trying to constanlty dip their fingers in to your walltet/bank account. They uphold the values of true gamers, you buy and you play, not you buy and you pay more and more to play”.

“Best pvp ever, Guild vs Guild and Hero Ascent was so awesome it kept people playing this game for years, even now GvG is still played.”

I research; Guild Wars was not perfect game but worked with player to make game challenge-fun and worked with player to make game better. Why not keep same principle?, why not keep same vision? why not keep same goal? why not keep same focus? why not keep same mission? why not improve all of it?

(Example; if a car company want to copy other car company car, would it make sense to improve the copy? so why chose the path of not copying the other company car and make itself worse than the copy?)

Guild Wars 2 did not copy other game; it is own creation. So why no other game even new game copy Guild Wars 2? There is reason why no other mmo game copying Guild Wars 2?

Because NC Soft West is driven only by profits.

Why do you think there is always an update for the BLTP but real updates for bugs/content take two to three ipatches apart?

Assassin X.8573:

DarkSyze.8627:

If arena net continued, copied Guild Wars, here would result be times X 2 for Guild Wars 2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

http://www.thetoptens.com/mmorpg-games/guild-wars-1622.asp

“Guild wars is a free mmorpg and it is fun, competitive and has brilliant graphics.
Buy this game!”

“Best game ever! Can’t belive how fun I practily died for real ha”

“Guildwars is the only MMO out there not trying to constanlty dip their fingers in to your walltet/bank account. They uphold the values of true gamers, you buy and you play, not you buy and you pay more and more to play”.

“Best pvp ever, Guild vs Guild and Hero Ascent was so awesome it kept people playing this game for years, even now GvG is still played.”

I research; Guild Wars was not perfect game but worked with player to make game challenge-fun and worked with player to make game better. Why not keep same principle?, why not keep same vision? why not keep same goal? why not keep same focus? why not keep same mission? why not improve all of it?

(Example; if a car company want to copy other car company car, would it make sense to improve the copy? so why chose the path of not copying the other company car and make itself worse than the copy?)

Guild Wars 2 did not copy other game; it is own creation. So why no other game even new game copy Guild Wars 2? There is reason why no other mmo game copying Guild Wars 2?

Because NC Soft West is driven only by profits.

Why do you think there is always an update for the BLTP but real updates for bugs/content take two to three ipatches apart?

Because bugs are harder to stamp without breaking other parts of the game while Gemstore items don’t really create all that much bugs and is needed for a source of revenue.