Guild Wars 2

I’ve seen a lot of posts and requests for Solo/Duo queues and realised that the two main reasons are:

Problem 1: A lot of people are being matched against premades and therefore it’s “unfair”
Problem 2: People want the solo/duo system because they want a solo ladder system – the current system does not allow for this because it is considered unfair based on problem 1.

Below is a proposal that IGNORES the solo/duo system but would solve the above 2 problems.

An ANET DEV HAS READ this proposal and it was AGREED that this would solve problem 1. Whether it would rectify problem 2 was questioned and so I’m here for your opinion:
If all matches were “competitive” and “fair” and an individual ladder system was implemented, would you still want a solo/duo queue system?

TL:DR – SOLUTION
If a new match making system (details below) was implemented which made all matches “fair” and “competitive”, regardless of whether you queued as a party of 1/2/3/4/5, would you still want a solo/duo system?

Having a “fair” and “competitive” matching system would solve problem 1.

This then naturally leads to solving point 2 – if all matches were “competitive” and “fair”, would it be safe to say that it would also be fair to add an individual ladder system to the the above system?

Summary of proposed system benefits (given that there is sufficient players queueing):
Terminology:
Mixed Teams = teams made up of random players who queue as a team of 1, 2, 3 or 4.
Mixed Players = individual players in the mixed team
Premade = team of 5

- System takes into consideration teams who queue as a party of 2, 3, 4 or 5 and adjusts accordingly to ensure ALL matches are “fair” and competitive (i.e. less one-sided games)
- The proposed system would only be an ADD-ON to the current match making system and would only affect the “unfair” fights.
- Mixed teams are less likely to fight premades unless the individual skills of the premade teams are LOWER than that of the mixed players.
- Premades are more likely to fight premades of equal skill or mixed teams of higher skilled individuals.
- Since most matches are now “competitive” and “fair”, a solo ladder system can be added
- Since there is only 1 queue system, queues will remain “quick”

Proposal:
A lot of people are wanting solo/duo queue and a team queue due to the current system where mixed players are matched “unfairly” against premades. However there are problems I foresee with adding a solo/duo queue system:

1. Queue times would increase overall due to splitting of queues, especially for teams that queue as 5
2. “Competitive” teams of 3 or 4 would have to find extra members, be matched “unfairly” against premades (if they pugged the remaining members) or possibly quit if they are unable to source additional members (<— fact)
3. In a way it’s a step backwards into the previous system – the solo/queue would be treated like the free tournament system and the team queue (of 5) would be like the paid

From what I understand, the current system aggregates the individuals members “invisible points” to make a team value and this value is then used to find another team within its range.

Say there are 2 teams of equal skills where 1 is made of mixed players and the other a premade. Both teams have a match making arbitrary “value” of 100 based on their individual skills. Under the current system, I assume they would be matched against each other because their values are similar but in reality, this would be considered “unfair”.

What if you were to put in a rule or system where any parties of 2 or more, gain additional “points” to their team “value” based on the number of people in the party – in this case, the premade team would receive an additional, arbitrary value of 50 points for joining as a party of 5. The 2 teams now have team “values” of 100 and 150. Under the new system, it would be highly unlikely that they would be matched against each other because of the difference in points.

The same could be done with teams of 2, 3, or 4 with arbitrary additional points of 20, 30 or 40 points (or some suitable value under Anet’s current system). Justification of this system is that because they are friends, have played/practised together before, have VOIP or simply better composed (LFG Pugs), it is most likely that will have an “advantage” over the other team. In a way, these additional points could be used to represent a team’s “team work or coordination” skills.

With this new system, unfair fights would be removed, e.g. mixed teams against premades of equal skill as explained above.

This system would ALSO open opportunities that the current system would not have allowed, e.g. skilled mixed teams fighting against premades teams of lower skill level. Under the old system, the skilled mixed team may have a score of 100 and the premade 50, but due to the additional 50 points the premade receives, they are now matched against each other.

The key in whether this system works is based on the values assigned to party numbers. Since a duo is less likely to have an impact compared to a team of 5, the additional points should marginally increase as party numbers increase.

E.g. Party points could be:
2 = 4
3 = 8
4 = 20
5 = 50

Obviously, these numbers are just an example and it would be up to Anet to decide what values are suited to the current system. Overall, if a similar system to the one I propose is implemented to the current system or at least a similar idea is implemented, I believe it would be beneficial to the game and make the match making system more fair. A fair system also means a solo ladder system can be added

Note again that this is a system that should be ADDED on to the current system so all benefits of the current system will be left untouched, i.e. quick queue times. This system is NOT an absolute system, i.e. if there are not enough players, unfair matches may still occur.

Let me know what you guys think?

Oh and 1 round tournaments should have the map rotated but that’s another topic :p

Cheers,
FLIMP

“voip”
“practice”
are 2 parameters of how premade vs mixed won’t be “fair and competitive”

Shukran.4851:

“voip”
“practice”
are 2 parameters of how premade vs mixed won’t be “fair and competitive”

Thanks for your input – the system deals with this and I’ve stated it more clearly now.

Edited this section:
“The same could be done with teams of 2, 3, or 4 with arbitrary additional points of 20, 30 or 40 points (or some suitable value under Anet’s current system). Justification of this system is that because they are friends, have played/practised together before, have VOIP or simply better composed (LFG Pugs), it is most likely that will have an “advantage” over the other team. In a way, these additional points could be used to represent a team’s “team work or coordination” skills.”

Shukran.4851:

“voip”
“practice”
are 2 parameters of how premade vs mixed won’t be “fair and competitive”

voip isnt really an excuse. Its not hard to just play good without voip. It is more just team compostion and the fact most randoms dont read chat and glory kitten because thats how they learnt in hotjoin and it is what the scoring system rewards.

They should just add solo/duo queues into the game. The systems are in place, what is the excuse for not doing so? Splintering the playerbase? As it is right now, there isn’t a SPvP playerbase, at least this would bring some people back.

Yes something like that would work for me. I agree that splitting up the cues right now would increase the queue times possibly to the point of overriding any benefits. It’s really up to the programming at arena net and the prioritization to be able to pull this type of system off. I would love to give this a try before splitting up the cues into solo and pre-made, if that even happens.

I have no problem with some mild matchmaking help for solo players. It could potentially make it difficult for friends who were new to PvP to try it together, but I don’t think that’s too dangerous if the change is not too big.

I don’t think it would effectively solve the ladder problem. A completely separate solo queue is nice because it’s another way to develop top-tier players. For example, I believe that currently most of the truly great players are those who were on a paid-level team under the original paid system. It was simply the only place to play against very skilled opponents.

NevirSayDie.6235:

I have no problem with some mild matchmaking help for solo players. It could potentially make it difficult for friends who were new to PvP to try it together, but I don’t think that’s too dangerous if the change is not too big.

Well I’m sure like any other game, you’d practise and get use to the map before entering the tournament. Even then, you might lose the first few games, the match making mechanism would soon kick in and you should be matched against people who are also new or “bad”.

NevirSayDie.6235:

I don’t think it would effectively solve the ladder problem. A completely separate solo queue is nice because it’s another way to develop top-tier players. For example, I believe that currently most of the truly great players are those who were on a paid-level team under the original paid system. It was simply the only place to play against very skilled opponents.

That I agree. Although I’ve suggested a ladder system (mainly because people want it so badly), I’m not quite sure how a ladder system would work in a solo/duo queue system. With the current game mode of conquest, how does it rank you? Based on kill v death ratio? Number of points capped? How does it rate an awesome bunker compared to someone who is a bursty dps?

I also agree with your example which links with my opinion of a ladder system – that it would only work in a premade 5 v 5 tournament system, i.e. the previous paid system. Ranking “points” here would be provided to the team overall and not to the individual players but this would go back to the initial problem of having 2 separate queues. Having said that, if it was implemented, would players have to be locked into a specific group of 5 to be ranked?

The ladder system is a complicated one and probably the reason why Anet is taking so long to implement it and the reason why current individual rankings are hidden – if they were to reveal what someone was ranked and how one’s ranking was determined, some people would cry (surprise surprise) and call it unfair because of X or I’m better than X, why am I ranked below him/her, etc.

Until the player base increases, there’s no benefit in having 2 separate queues. There have been a few suggestions to increase them, e.g. making spvp/tpvp free to play to the public. Once there is a sufficient and large player base, then we can implement a premade 5 v 5 tournament system and a separate system for teams of 1 – 4. For now however, my solution would be a major upgrade to the current system and would help to salvage/retain whatever is left of the tpvp community – optimistically maybe even help expand it until it is large enough to split.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Shukran.4851:

“voip”
“practice”
are 2 parameters of how premade vs mixed won’t be “fair and competitive”

voip isnt really an excuse. Its not hard to just play good without voip. It is more just team compostion and the fact most randoms dont read chat and glory kitten because thats how they learnt in hotjoin and it is what the scoring system rewards.

This is why arguing from a point of ignorance fails.

Acandis.3250:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/sPvP-Some-proposed-ideas/

If you read that thread you’ll understand that your solution is flawed and unnecessary. I’ll explain why.

The reasons we need separate queues:

• Sometimes people want to try hard.
• Sometimes people want to chill and maybe dick around with a new build.
• Sometimes people want to play with their team against other team to see how their comp does against other comps, etc…

For example, if I’m playing with my team of 5, I am mostly disgruntled when we faceroll and PuG. That’s not to say my hypothetical team will beat all PuGs—we might run into an All-Star PuG—we will get more satisfaction out of facing not only people at a similar skill level, but other teams that will potentially try to counter our comp with theirs (which is something you will likely never see out of a PuG).

As I stated, this will be an add-on to the current system – that means all systems in place will still be functional. People who want to chill and muck around with a new build can go to hot-join. Anet already have stated there will eventually be custom arenas so until then, people can muck around here.

For premades, based on my proposed system, having a team of 5 would give you additional “points” to your team value. If this additional point system is set HIGH enough, it would potentially and naturally generate a separate 5 v 5 queue system (if you don’t seet his, I can explain) However, If it’s too high, you might not be able to find a game and if too low, you would get one-sided games. Setting these “additional points” is the key to this system.

In regards to people who want to test their “comps” – I’m not quite sure if you read my proposal in detail. You won’t be facerolling any pug. Your premade team will only be matched against pugs of higher skill (all-star pug as you called it) OR premades of equal skill (unless there are insufficient players queueing).

Note: I read your thread and not quite sure how that relates to mine and how my solution is “flawed and unnecessary”

I don’t want a solo-queue
If you ain’t facing pre-mades you ain’t going hard enough.
Hard mode all day.

I want custom arenas.

This is a bad idea and is more theorycraft than actual logic.

There is no way to put a value on what advantage a team of 5 will have over a collection of 1’s simply.

solo/duo que fits a playstyle
Most people who want to play solo/duo que are wanting the different play style that comes with that. (less organized casual play vs less organized casual play) Its not that these people are not competitive, they simply may not have a schedual that allows them to log on at the same time as another 4 people having a more spontanious allowance of time when they can log on. Solo/duo que allows people to play a competitive match, see their score adjusted for it and feel rewarded but not require them to feel overly invested or dedicated to the point they have to grow with a group of 4 others.

Systems can help 5 man teams be created
Also, 3’s and 4’s people teams can easily find another 1 to 2 through recruiting which is a system that would solve this and honestly it isnt THAT hard to find another willing person. The implementation of custom arenas would allow a guild of spvpers to run try outs for that 4th or 5th player. If those players were on a ladder that was visable to all that showed they’re very good at solo/duo or have streams that pronounce them as skilled it would be advertising to want people to join up with them. End point, it wont be that hard for people to get another player for 5’s through a system that helps them create a 5 man team.

solo/duo and 5 man has worked before
League of legends has a solo/duo que and a 5 man ranked options and is incredibly successful. They have a 3 man option on an alternate map that as of last year did not even make up for a fraction of the player base. Showing it was a niche group of people who were even making use of this map. If arenanet really really felt that they needed to accomidate 3 man teams, they could just as easily create a 3on3 map focused around deathmatch style play and have its own ladder. But as i said previously, its not needed.

Most importantly its what people want
But essentially, solo/duo que is what people want. Most people do not care about why you or anyone else thinks it should or shouldnt exist, its what they want. Announcing "we have solo/duo que’ is all arenanet has to announce and suddenly a large population of players will regain interest and want to log on and play. Its simple! they understand it… its what they want. Putting out an advertisement or blog that says “we are not putting in solo/duo que BUT heres a long explanation of why we think an alternate system we’re putting in should be probably as good or better but even if its not will make EVERYONE able to log into the same ranked system regardless of team size!!” will NOT bring people back because even if it was better, they’ve never heard of it, its not what they want, it still will result in premades going against solo ques. Thus most will not even care to give it a chance and see this as arenanet putting in what THEY want as a company and not what the community wants.

You want population and health for this game? Put in solo/duo que and premade 5’s. Give the people what they want.

Zinwrath.2049:

This is a bad idea and is more theorycraft than actual logic.

There is no way to put a value on what advantage a team of 5 will have over a collection of 1’s simply.

I agree that the determining a value for the “advantage” over players would be hard but it’s definitely not impossible – just as hard as it would be to fairly determine one’s rank, e.g. bunker vs bursty dps in conquest mode.

Zinwrath.2049:

solo/duo que fits a playstyle
Most people who want to play solo/duo que are wanting the different play style that comes with that. (less organized casual play vs less organized casual play) Its not that these people are not competitive, they simply may not have a schedual that allows them to log on at the same time as another 4 people having a more spontanious allowance of time when they can log on. Solo/duo que allows people to play a competitive match, see their score adjusted for it and feel rewarded but not require them to feel overly invested or dedicated to the point they have to grow with a group of 4 others.

The proposed will still allow people to play competitively. Like I said, if a proper value is set, it is unlikely that you will face a premade unless they are a premade of lower skill level.

Zinwrath.2049:

Most importantly its what people want
But essentially, solo/duo que is what people want. Most people do not care about why you or anyone else thinks it should or shouldnt exist, its what they want. Announcing "we have solo/duo que’ is all arenanet has to announce and suddenly a large population of players will regain interest and want to log on and play. Its simple! they understand it… its what they want. Putting out an advertisement or blog that says “we are not putting in solo/duo que BUT heres a long explanation of why we think an alternate system we’re putting in should be probably as good or better but even if its not will make EVERYONE able to log into the same ranked system regardless of team size!!” will NOT bring people back because even if it was better, they’ve never heard of it, its not what they want, it still will result in premades going against solo ques. Thus most will not even care to give it a chance and see this as arenanet putting in what THEY want as a company and not what the community wants.

You want population and health for this game? Put in solo/duo que and premade 5’s. Give the people what they want.

THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS You deserve a gold medal for this because I admit defeat lol. Although I’m 100% behind my solution, your point here is valid. Unless I can convince everyone (which is unlikely), a solo/duo queue system would probably bring back more players than my proposed system (even if it’s better ;p)

A solo que won’t bring “back” ppl. It just bring “new” players. At the moment it’s not possible to split up premades / solo kittens 100%, because there’s not enough crowd for it. So this would result in longer waiting times.
So what I see in Solo Q is just a desperate try to delay the death of the pvp-playerbase.
The only positive thing is to deliver something to ppl that have not enough time to play with a guild.
But if you look back: GW2 had lot of ppl playing in the first months. The problem ppl left is not a missing solo Q. It’s the lack of a complete PvP.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

A solo que won’t bring “back” ppl. It just bring “new” players. At the moment it’s not possible to split up premades / solo kittens 100%, because there’s not enough crowd for it. So this would result in longer waiting times.
So what I see in Solo Q is just a desperate try to delay the death of the pvp-playerbase.
The only positive thing is to deliver something to ppl that have not enough time to play with a guild.
But if you look back: GW2 had lot of ppl playing in the first months. The problem ppl left is not a missing solo Q. It’s the lack of a complete PvP.

I garantee you while the pvp has and still does have major bugs and issues, a ranked system that allowed them to feel actual pvp progression “not grind months for cosmetic gear in a fashion that awards time spent more than actual skill”. People would have been throwing together E-sport ready teams like mad. Its what killed my guild of 40+ people who were mostly spvp players.

Also, the solo/que splitting up the player base from 5v5 resulting in longer que time arguement is valid to a degree but at the same time ..not to the extreme.

Current system set up and one projected by OP

Number one issue right out the door. “hi we’re a group of 4 people that know YOU want to be higher rated…SO, for a cash fee, in game currency, or just because we like you, we’re gonna let you tag along with us while we majorly boost your in game rank!”

As it sits with current system I could be playing with my 5’s one day, and by myself the next day. Now what happens then if indivudually i’m not very good, but working with my team makes me very high rated. Those times i’m not playing with 5’s i am being judged incorrectly by the system, and thus i am pitted against harder opponents and being punished for it. Like wise, if a group of players who arent normally very good team up one day and use strategy, the system will not know how to compensate correctly because if you set a system that says (they’re 5 give them a boost by X to increase how powerful they are now) as said before, there is no way for the system to properly know how well they work together. They may be amazing with teamwork, or horrible at it. And since the system doesnt force you to stay with that group, they could move onto another group that the teamwork value is going to be different, because those people may click better, or work worst together

Kinda what i said before, there is no way to properly know how much of an advantage the 5 man team will have over the indivudual because people will not always que as a full team, and certain teams work better with each other than others. Thus you have a sloppy system that will NEVER know whats best…it can only guess, and it would be equivelent to the current system that awards glory. Sure it sounds like it rewards you for playing well, but really it awards people who care more about running around as a zerg capping points then abandoning them.

So right off the bat we have some inherent flaws that simply cannot be corrected. NOW lets imagine that those 5 or 4 people ALWAYS PLAY TOGETHER NEVER APART!. Everyone always has the same people they group with everyday…lets imagine this even though, this wont happen. Even if that was the case, the highest people on the ladder would eventually "just like league of legends’ have long que times. Because there will be less people at a higher skill level than there will be at others simply because exceptional people at games are rarer than casuals ALWAYS. So, they will be MANY times better than your average player, thus it will not want to group them against them. So the higher ups (who you said would be all 5’s eventually anyway) will be left with the same problem…they will have longer que times, because it wont want to put them against some people they would butcher vs letting those people go against someone more equal to their rank.

Continued…!

Now onto solo que – 5 que.

People must form a team to do 5’s. Right away, you solve every problem i just listed. Just like league of legends system. You create a team, and the TEAM gains rating. Not the individual. This means if a player left the team and played with another team, they would be at the rating of the new team. so people would wanna stick with their current team. there would be no advantage for a player to be apart of a team just to get higher rating, because as soon as they got the boot they would lose all they gained.

(Eventually the best teams will be at the top fighting each other but their TEAM name will be listed on the rating board setting the grounds for the E-sport scene)

Soloque/duo que.

Now this only shares one similiar issue in the sense someone could pay someone to log on their account to move them up in rank. But if they dont belong there just like league of legends, they will drop down very quickly ALSO they have to give the other player their account information….so…good chance they wont have an account, punishment fits the crime.

With this system you can have a ladder board that people who solo/duo can see that they’re at the top (i am the best player in the world in a system that doesnt have premade teams). vs the other one, that you will NEVER get near the top of the board because premade teams will always sit near the top. This is discouraging because this system doesnt allow individual players to have much motive to go up in rank, when they know they can never reach the top.

Actually there’s no motivation to rank up. Mabye till 40. Also reaching the top is dedicated for hardcore players, not the casual ones. That’s in every game the case. The motivation is in the big playerbase. After the release that was the case. Guilds were dominating tournaments. Not solo quers. There was a good competition. But after half a year and the same mode, ppl left and guilds disbanded. And now this game is played by solo quers and 4-5 guild-teams.

I had actually though that there was already some form of additional temporary MMR boost for having queued up with a team innately. This being their system that makes it more difficult for solo/duo queue players to meet up with team queue players. I could be mistaken though, since that’s an assumption with nothing more then conjecture based on previous dev discussion.

The real crux of the problem comes down to two things, fun and validity of a ladder. The differing gameplay experiences you get between solo/duo vs. solo/duo, solo/duo vs. team, and team vs. team. The only frustrating one that exists is solo/duo vs. team. It’s frustrating for the solo/duo side. Even if there is appropriate changes to the MMR rating that bring the win% to 50%, the game is an entirely different beast. You are playing against people that in this case have teamwork as a superior attribute to your team. That means you make up for in other areas, which likely comes at least in part from personal skill. This creates a game experience where many people will feel very obviously better then their opponents and yet have a real chance to lose depending on the teamwork. That in my opinion, would be frustrating. It would also be frustrating on the other side of the equation. You want things to be as fair as possible. You don’t want to go up against people that have a huge teamwork boost over you, nor do you want to go up against people that have a huge personal talent boost over you. It’s simply less fun and can be extremely frustrating. This also assumes we can come up with some equation and memory for what would create an accurate assessment of a premades MMR boost.

The other side of the coin, is as was said deals with the legitimacy of a ladder. I’ve seen many posts that scream misinformation here, but the bottom line is a solo/duo queue MMR in a team oriented game works. There are many games that I could use as evidence for this. If you’ve played in the tournament system in this game as a solo player and ended up against non-premades with any regularity, you will know that it’s actually fairly easy to carry a team in that solo-like environment. Solo/Duo queue MMR will work in GW2. Introducing any attempts at balancing that against team queues destroys that legitimacy, especially since coming up with an equation that actually deals with this sort of thing is incredibly complex. You’d have to rate the performance of each person with another person. I might do much better with my brother then my random guildmate I’ve never played with, for example. How do you rate that accurately? You could approximate it all and average it all out, but that means someone somewhere is playing with an advantage in the system and that destroys the legitimacy.

When it comes down to it, bringing in a separation of the solo/duo queue and team queue not only seems much easier to accomplish, it will increase the amount of fun that comes with sPvP and increases the legitimacy of a ladder. Creating less frustration situations is paramount to the enjoyment of sPvP. I’ll admit I quit playing sPvP when I get matched against premades repetitively. It’s simply not fun. I’ve even won a couple, but it still wasn’t a fun game. In terms of the ladder bringing in solo/duo and team together in that ladder just makes it meaningless to anyone that is queuing mostly as solo/duo. It also wrecks any team player that also decides to play solo/duo. The answer is pretty clear cut to me. The eventual solution is to separate the queues and consolidate the 8-team/2-team format for now.

@Ayestes, i agree whole heartedly.

As i put in my long rant a bit earlier solo/duo que is a different experience. And any handicap the system gives to a team’s total MMR to compensate for them POTENTIALLY being more organized is not going to be legitiment. Like you said, you might group with a couple people one day, then another couple people another day. The system may know how you each play indivudually in the past, but it has NO idea how well you will work together, thus it cant properly predict how strong your team is. And furthermore, it ruins the reasoning of going up in rank, because a system like that will not properly reflect whos better than the next.