Guild Wars 2

Once upon a time it was planned that Stronghold and Conquest would be in the same queue. So that people could expect a consistent amount of the time they have to dedicate once queuing up, stronghold was given a timer of 15 minutes. People complained about how bad of an idea it was to have two game modes which required entirely different builds in the same queue. Thankfully Anet realized this was true – after all these are two entirely different game modes and should not be treated the same! However one issue remains… a blight upon the game mode, an artifact of the queue sharing days, that is the 15 minute time limit in stronghold. Now that people can queue for Stronghold separately from Conquest I can not comprehend why it has a 15 minute timer. There are a few pros I can see, which I will list below, but I can not see these out weighing the cons. Simply put, one of the things conquest was lacking is a visceral “climatic” ending that we see in MOBAs which have grown hugely popular (and this game mode is clearly based upon). Pushing into the enemy’s base with your entire team, or defending your own base from the enemy’s team, not being sure who will overcome who and make a final push for victory, is exciting not only for players but also for spectators. Now why would they promote the promise of adding this missing component to PvP and then slap a timer to potentially remove it? I should be fighting the enemy not a timer.

They added overtime to partially address this issue, but it doesn’t feel good at all. If your team is defending with less points, which if fairly common since you are rewarded many more points for being offensive, then the moment you stop the enemy from attacking your lord you lose… So what is the point of even defending in overtime? The only way it works is if you have an ally sneak their way to the enemy team’s lord while your team is fighting at your lord room and your ally engages the enemy lord before you wipe the other team (and probably lose because you have less points). It’s unlikely this will ever work though, because by sacrificing that extra person (or however many you send) your team on defense will likely be outnumbered.

Pros of Timer:
- Guaranteed Game Length (potentially +6 minutes with overtime)
- Good for scheduling tournaments
- Easy to keep reward system consistent

Cons of Timer:
- Chance for a “disappointing” ending if game ends before timer.
- Needlessly increases the complexity of the game mode by adding another win condition by points.
- I was personally disappointed when I would bring friends into this game mode explain to them our goal of killing the enemy lord (which they are familiar with due to playing MOBAs) but then the game would end by a timer and I would have to explain that there is an arbitrary timer in place which determines how long games can be.
- Makes comebacks nearly impossible after ~13 minutes, depending how close the game is.
- Overtime is awkward and a poorly placed band-aid for a bigger issue.

For stronghold to be ideal to me, I would like to see the timer removed. To avoid games lasting forever death timers could be increased steadily after 15 minutes, and we would be allowed to spectate teammates while we wait to be ressed (adding a moment of glory for teammates if you ever spectate them during important plays). Additionally I’m sure there is a concern for rewards, for which I suggest increasing the rewards after 15 minutes as well, scaling up to double the rewards of a 15 minute match if the game goes on for 30 minutes, but the scaling stops there (to avoid abuse). I think it’s unlikely for games to last much longer than 15 minutes anyway, most games are currently over in under 15 minutes, which if fine by me. My experience with the timer has been less than pleasant however, and I have only had it stop close games prematurely.

Maybe I’m missing some benefits of the timer, such as stopping OP team comps, but as it stands now I look at the timer with resent, as it stops many team strategies from developing in the first place. You are required to be very offensive in under 15 minutes so anything that lacks that is not going to be a valid strategy. I don’t think turtling will be too strong of a strategy, since mist essence spawns very rapidly late game, which can also be a tool they use to make games end in a reasonable time.

TL;DR: Time limit in Stronghold seems unnecessary and removes the entire concept of the gamemode. Overtime is an awkward mechanic to fix it, as defending with less points just means you delay your defeat. More natural mechanics should be implemented to prevent excessively long matches.

EDIT: There seems to be a big concern over stalemates. To prevent games from dragging out mist essence could spawn very rapidly after the 15 mins. Additionally, mist heroes could have an extra “stalemate preventing” special effect, like say if a team has already summoned 5 mist heroes, their future summoned mist heroes will use their battle cry every 10 seconds. These are just ideas, all I really want is the timer removed. Short games around 15 minutes are fine, but let the mechanics of it feel more natural.

Simply put, to prevent eternal stalemates. I don’t like them. I will say overtime as is needs tweaks and I’d like to see it work differently, instead of being based on points. I think a good way to do it would be to have the two lords (as well as supporting minions) come out and duke it out in the middle of the map (where supply is held). Each remaining gate for your side grants a 10% damage bonus to the lord and your minions.

Another idea is to set the minions on a sort of overdrive. As the match progresses further into overtime, the summoned minions gain increased health and speed and the lords health is reduced. Mist essence channeling time is decreased and it spawns more often. Eventually this would result in players being unable to keep up and someone would lose. Personally I prefer the former, but this works too.

cause its already too long as it is

i’d rather play 10, 3 min matches than 2, 15 min matches.

least w/ 10 short matches, u gat a chance of having sum good matches.

w/ 2 long matches, a real good chance u could get stuck w/ both the match ups being terrible and just wanting to pull ur hair out for 30 min straight, not fun in my book

The left of time is perfect. I also like the overtime feature at the end when a lord is under attack.

The Wizland.8435:

Simply put, to prevent eternal stalemates. I don’t like them. I will say overtime as is needs tweaks and I’d like to see it work differently, instead of being based on points. I think a good way to do it would be to have the two lords (as well as supporting minions) come out and duke it out in the middle of the map (where supply is held). Each remaining gate for your side grants a 10% damage bonus to the lord and your minions.

Another idea is to set the minions on a sort of overdrive. As the match progresses further into overtime, the summoned minions gain increased health and speed and the lords health is reduced. Mist essence channeling time is decreased and it spawns more often. Eventually this would result in players being unable to keep up and someone would lose. Personally I prefer the former, but this works too.

Yes, I can appreciate that about the timer, but I think there are better ways that feel more “natural” than a time limit to prevent stalements. The ideas you presented are better than a timer, but I don’t think they will be necessary so long as mist essence rapidly spawns at both locations later in the game, eventually one team will keep sending so many heroes the defending team won’t be able to keep up. But who knows, if the timer were removed and extremely long games became an issue I wouldn’t mind either of your ideas being implemented. Mist heroes could have an extra “stalemate preventing” special effect, like say if a team has already summoned 5 mist heroes, their future summoned mist heroes will use their battle cry every 10 seconds. Surely that would overwhelm a team playing defensively for too long?

Jaxom.7310:

cause its already too long as it is

i’d rather play 10, 3 min matches than 2, 15 min matches.

least w/ 10 short matches, u gat a chance of having sum good matches.

w/ 2 long matches, a real good chance u could get stuck w/ both the match ups being terrible and just wanting to pull ur hair out for 30 min straight, not fun in my book

I can understand not wanting to get stuck in crappy matches, it’s one of the things about MOBAs I don’t like. But I think it’s just a sacrifice you have to make in order to get those truly epic matches. Maybe a surrender vote could be implement after 15 minutes (like /resign from GW1). And if you like short matches there is already Conquest, which is another reason why I don’t see why Stronghold needs to pigeon holed into this time limit so badly. Short matches is a niche already filled by Conquest, so why do we need another game mode for that? Don’t get me wrong, I think short Stronghold matches should be possible, but I don’t think they should be absolutely forced as they are now.

In BWE2, stronghold was stalemating a lot more. You could no longer rush DBs to get access to a lord quickly. Without a timer, people would start groaning waiting for the stalemate to end.

However, the focus on improving the 15-minute stalemate resolution is misplaced. Instead, the mode should be adjusted so that that scenario rarely happens. Reducing the suck factor on archers and mist heroes would definitely help.

I think that increasing number of creeps spawned from supply as the time progresses could be worth testing. Similar to how in MOBAs the later you are in the game, the more in numbers and more powerful minions spawn.

This and giving defenders some better shortcut/new place near the Lord’s room to spawn npcs + maybe increasing respawn cooldown once you hit 15 min mark would surely hasten the game naturally without hard timers.

’Cause this game-mode can be stalled so easily, which is an annoying aspect of it.

Smigleesmits.7540:

………..

cause its already too long as it is

i’d rather play 10, 3 min matches than 2, 15 min matches.

least w/ 10 short matches, u gat a chance of having sum good matches.

w/ 2 long matches, a real good chance u could get stuck w/ both the match ups being terrible and just wanting to pull ur hair out for 30 min straight, not fun in my book

I can understand not wanting to get stuck in crappy matches, it’s one of the things about MOBAs I don’t like. But I think it’s just a sacrifice you have to make in order to get those truly epic matches. Maybe a surrender vote could be implement after 15 minutes (like /resign from GW1). And if you like short matches there is already Conquest, which is another reason why I don’t see why Stronghold needs to pigeon holed into this time limit so badly. Short matches is a niche already filled by Conquest, so why do we need another game mode for that? Don’t get me wrong, I think short Stronghold matches should be possible, but I don’t think they should be absolutely forced as they are now.

i’ll give u dat. mi real solution is just to have gw1 RA re implemented, but dat doesn’t seem to be anywhere near happening

i jus want to pvp, over n over w/ new battles constantly. conquest and stronghold just are too long for me to get the type of fights i want.

jus a frustration an annoyance dat 1 of the thangs i rally loved aboot gw1 pvp isnt supported in gw2

u can’t really compare gw2 to moba/arts. gw2’s combat system is ‘fast action-tab targeted’ and really different from moba/arts games, even if stronghold objectives are the similar.
gw2 is more comparable to other action based games than it is to moba’s. that’s why, even in stronghold, a timer is still better than no timer. cuz without that timer, you’ll get tons of endless/stalled games were one team is always defending and another always attacking.

though, i want to say, 15min stronghold matches are a bit too short. there’s more than double the mechanics on a stronghold match compared to a conquest map. it takes way longer to fully use all those mechanics than the time allotted. which is why you end up with matches that are always one sided, there’s just no time to set up an attack and defend in 15mins, even with the supply drops from enemies in your lord room. OT was a good addition, but i don’t think it solved much.

as of right now, stronghold is more about PvTimer than actual PvP. and i still feels its not enough PvP and too PvE/Moba. if i wanted a moba game, i’d go play a moba. i play gw2 PvP for PvP.

ChoChoBo.6503:

u can’t really compare gw2 to moba/arts. gw2’s combat system is ‘fast action-tab targeted’ and really different from moba/arts games, even if stronghold objectives are the similar.
gw2 is more comparable to other action based games than it is to moba’s. that’s why, even in stronghold, a timer is still better than no timer. cuz without that timer, you’ll get tons of endless/stalled games were one team is always defending and another always attacking.

though, i want to say, 15min stronghold matches are a bit too short. there’s more than double the mechanics on a stronghold match compared to a conquest map. it takes way longer to fully use all those mechanics than the time allotted. which is why you end up with matches that are always one sided, there’s just no time to set up an attack and defend in 15mins, even with the supply drops from enemies in your lord room. OT was a good addition, but i don’t think it solved much.

as of right now, stronghold is more about PvTimer than actual PvP. and i still feels its not enough PvP and too PvE/Moba. if i wanted a moba game, i’d go play a moba. i play gw2 PvP for PvP.

The only reason I bring up MOBAs so much because I believe the idea of a tangible ending to a PvP match is a great thing, something Stronghold has the promise to bring to GW2. It makes the match feel like it has more “meaning” and has provides a clear end goal. There are healthier ways to avoid stalemates than timers, like by adding mechanics, such as the ones I have recommended throughout my posts. I’m not saying we need to change combat at all or anything like that, and I actually enjoy being able to get right into the action, unlike MOBAs with long laning phases. You even say you don’t enjoy feeling like you are playing against the timer, which is my reason behind this post, I don’t either. So why have a timer when other games have demonstrated it’s not necessary?