Guild Wars 2

Why is it that the highest survivability classes, the ones with stealth moves, always seem to be given the highest burst damage moves? You can try to make an argument based on low base health/armor but it falls to shambles when you factor the ridiculous mobility and survivability from stealth into the equation. At the same time you have classes like the necromancer with damage beat into the ground because of their supposed “passive survivability”.

So why is it exactly that this class is getting 14k backstab crits and then disappearing into the shadow with no fear of retribution?

Well, obviously you’re supposed to use the utility skills that reveal thieves from stealth!

Bassi.3627:

Well, obviously you’re supposed to use the utility skills that reveal thieves from stealth!

I know you were being sarcastic but this brings me to another point; thieves trying to defend their OP class by saying other classes need to bring “X” to counter them.

I don’t feel it was the intention of Anet to have every single PvPer be forced to use two utility slots on an immobilize breaker and stun breaker just to counter being instantly gibbed by a pistolwhip thief.

Thieves have stealth mostly for survivability. You can get massive damage added to your backstab if you spec into it, but in return you’ll die in 2 seconds if your targeted. Dodging pistol whip and hundred blades are basically the same thing, just use ur stun break and dodge a lot to avoid it. Also, what else would you suggest? If thief didn’t have that stealth, it’d be a horrible class cuz you’d die immediately every fight in tourney

A thief that does 14k backstab crit has 1900 armor (meaning he takes x1.5 damage than he would if he had 2500), and around 10k health.

Pandering to the lowest common denominator.

if stealth is for survivability then why are they spamming the hardest hitting abilities in the game while still being invisible?

that doesn’t sound very defensive to me

See the things with classes like theifs or Mesmer is that I learned to fight them and will do quite well with most classes. But problem I have is the guardians and warriors. More so guardians, but these 2 classes definitely need some abilities toned down. To be able to hit harder then everyone and still have more health and defense and stun lock people to death in seconds or the crazy amounts of healing. It seems like every class has its trade offs, but not these two. Can Burst you faster then a thief, with more armor and health to boot, and heal themselves nonstop/condition cures.

hackks.3687:

if stealth is for survivability then why are they spamming the hardest hitting abilities in the game while still being invisible?

Exactly my question.

Raijinn.9065:

See the things with classes like theifs or Mesmer is that I learned to fight them and will do quite well with most classes. But problem I have is the guardians and warriors. More so guardians, but these 2 classes definitely need some abilities toned down. To be able to hit harder then everyone and still have more health and defense and stun lock people to death in seconds or the crazy amounts of healing. It seems like every class has its trade offs, but not these two. Can Burst you faster then a thief, with more armor and health to boot, and heal themselves nonstop/condition cures.

I dont remember guardians having any kind of burst, and hundred blades warriors are kited easily unlike theifs. I’m not sure what class you play that could possible have trouble with a warrior but i might take a guess at elementalist?

if stealth is for survivability then why are they spamming the hardest hitting abilities in the game while still being invisible?

Exactly my question.

Don’t forget that thieves are still subject to damage while stealthed. You may not be able to target them directly, but AoEs, Melee attacks, and even luckily aimed projectiles will hurt them. The most common problem I’ve seen from players who have difficulties with thieves is that the inherent expectation that invisibility somehow equates to invulnerability.

Stealth can get used for survivability. It can also get used for sneak attacks, misdirection, and outright escapes. Given the pitfalls of stealth (still being subject to nearly all attacks), I’d say it fully merits the potential damage boosts and their statistical trade offs. Not all spells must be strictly defensive or offensive, and Stealth is a fantastic example of that.

So im stealther, but i can also rush you up visible if needed while dodging every single attack …. you will run out of endurance/utilities since i dont have to use anything to catch up with you so it will end toe to toe no matter what … then u face the best dps and burst damage with no way to escape …

Oh I already hear the rogue bandwaggon crying that they need “initiative” LOL
1. It regens so fast and with no effort at all since its automatic
2. “hint” that utility skill you press on button and tada!!! u gain init instantly
If so far u failed u can still 5/1/1/1/1/1 or 2/2 and expect a win :p

GG class designer …

Because 14k hp is high survivability?

Yeah, they only have 14k HP!

It’s not like they have a signet that provides a passive 25% movement speed, the ability to cloak constantly, or a movement skill that completely ignores Cripple, Immobilize and Frozen!

yes they are annoying but they also are easy to kill when i get them in my sites and can lock them down for even a few seconds of time. If you are unable to plan or adapt to the classes that you are predominantly facing in your pvp match or wvw then that is on you sir as that is all part of this game. I have a thief (not a big fan of the playstyle so only got him to 47) but play mesmer and guardian. I have no problem dealing with thieves 1 v 1 usually as long as I play smart. Since I have a thief that i played a lot (rolled him first) i know how they work so can figure out what they are planning depending on weapon choices.

They really should have put on the box of the game “Skill sets apart those who excel and those who cry foul”.

Bassi.3627:

Yeah, they only have 14k HP!

It’s not like they have a signet that provides a passive 25% movement speed, the ability to cloak constantly, or a movement skill that completely ignores Cripple, Immobilize and Frozen!

Why don’t you play the Backstab build if you think it is so strong? The truth is that it is not.

You ask: Why does every modern MMO seem to make this mistake?

I ask: Why does every MMO player make this mistake? They take every single thing about whats good about a class, and combine them all at the same time to make them sound OP.

I’ve seen it alot on SW:TOR, and these forums. Sure, some thieves might take every bit of stealth utility they can. But they wont have movement or damage buffing utilities. Sure some might spec for a lot of toughness, but they wont have near the amount of damage as a glass cannon build.

Take the usual PW spammer build. They usually take Haste, Devourers, and I usually go for the Shadows Signet for the 25% movement. That leaves my only option to stealth as my heal, if I even take HiS over Withdraw, which I usually prefer Withdraw for immob breaking.

Instead you think of every little thing they have, and combine it into some immortal godlike build that cannot be beaten at all, that doesnt even exist…

Every MMO makes this mistake? The only thing ALL those MMOs have in common is that you played them. Maybe it’s time you looked to yourself rather than blaming the game.

How else would a thief/rogue proffession play out. The class atypically has low health, poor defenses, stealth, high utility, and high bust damage. This is hardly a problem with modern mmo’s it is what rogues/thiefs have been since D&D first began.

It is like saying that the major problem ever modern mmo has is that Warriors are durable, Elementalist/Shamans can use nature magic to heal and do damage, or Guardians/Paladins can heal themselves to boster their survivability.

These are not new concepts and have been time tested by nearly every RPG, Action RPG, MMORPG, or Table Top RPG in the past15+ years. Only with the advent of the mmo that shall not be named has the player base of games been so quick to jump at any difference in classes, citing brokeness not lack of skill for their personal failure

A thief that does 14k backstab crit has 1900 toughness (meaning he takes x1.5 damage than he would if he had 2500), and around 10k health.

Did you mean 900 toughness? Because 1900 is way too high for a glassy high-damage Thief. My build/setup is very glass, maxed for damage output and I have 966 toughness.

I mean, I agree Thieve’s are out of whack on burst. But in what universe has stealth ever been equated with highest survivability in MMOs? Stealth has always been a tool for a rogue class to scout and/or to set up a front load attack without being wiped off the face of the map in 3 seconds by classes with superior utility and durability or ranged classes with superior crowd control if not damage.

Traditionally, the rogue is only the cat when its stealthed, once its in the open it turns into the mouse. The only problem GW2 has with them is that the frontload doesn’t give the target much of a chance to react or counter. When people lose without feeling like they had a chance to win, they become kitten off. Its as simple as that. Instagibbing, stunlocking, etc, anything in mmopvp that removes the players ability to fight back so they die helplessly will kitten off your players.

Its not rocket science. -.-

14k hp is low survivability for a glass cannon?

try ele

on a serious note, what is with the health pool inequity in this game, i dont think some classes need more hp but the top hp classes and the bottom hp classes need to have there average health pool adjusted to be closer to the middle hp classes

for this example we are gonna use thief(10,805 base hp) engineers(15,082 base hp) and warriors (18,372 base hp) to represent each health pool type
<—-theif——————engineer—————warrior—→
should be more like this
<—————thief——engineer——warrior—————>

the distinction between classes should not be HP but actual passive/active defenses, there should not be an 8k+ hp difference between any class especially since this mmorpg has an emphasis on no trinity

i should of previewed before posting ;_;

It is the same as with hundred blades: the burst is simply too high. In team based play it gets even worse. At one point you eat a stun and then you eat that damage.

A thief also has no problem in group play. As soon as a player is focusing on another target teleport to him and pump everything into him. Kiting? Good luck. The thief class is, like the mesmer, playing with training wheels. It is comedy gold if those people yell to others “l2p”

It also cracks me up to see dots tickls for 100ish damage while a thief can remove in 2 hits often 50-75% of the whole health bar of medium toughness specs.

Yes thieves are able to run around in perma stealth, jumping from target to target, instagibbing each one without hesitation. They also fire lightning bolts from their behind, oh and can fly.

/sarcasm off

Backstab builds = A lot of these thieves you are getting owned by with backstab are actually bad players themselves (complaining about them makes you what?) What makes them bad is they build entirely around 1 ability (backstab), to do the huge spike damage they also have to be BEHIND YOU (key hint dont stand still, theif doesnt have any ability that auto places them behind you that doesnt break stealth) and rely on Assassins signet ( Check the cooldown!) It is NOT a short cooldown.

Pistol Whip builds: they build entirely around Quickness (haste utility skill), again not a short cooldown, even longer then Assassins signet. However whilst building around 1 ability is bad, these players have an excuse. Sword attack speed is FAR too slow for a class that is supposed to be about mobility, to add tobasco sauce to the wound, PW self roots… it takes a lot of illegal drug useage to add a self rooting ability to a mobility class (hint to devs)

Who the kitten knows OP, I play a lot of professions and thief has to be one of the worst offenders (mesmer is even lamer). Don’t listen to all the bullcrap people say about low survivability, on my backstab build I have multiple stealths and shadowstep to get out of anything.

My thief: http://i.imgur.com/y8TwU.jpg

Yeah I worked hard for that one, I hit like 3 buttons to do that. Notice those 5k shots from shortbow… too bad my build is only good for hitting people with backstab I don’t know how thieves can die unless caught completely off guard/zerged down by 3+ people. Stealth is probably the most broken thing in the game until necros learn how to master death shroud ;D

Grizz.7045:

until necros learn how to master death shroud ;D

Uuuuh…rub salt in our wounds!!!!

hahahahaha Was a good one

ahem stealth doesn’t remove any damage taken.
Shoot in the general direction of the thief. Thief dies.

Dariya.9380:

A thief that does 14k backstab crit has 1900 toughness (meaning he takes x1.5 damage than he would if he had 2500), and around 10k health.

Did you mean 900 toughness? Because 1900 is way too high for a glassy high-damage Thief. My build/setup is very glass, maxed for damage output and I have 966 toughness.

I actually meant armor (toughness+defense). I keep confusing the terms. Thanks for catching that, I’ll edit.

As a thief I find thiefs eaisest to drop.

I can see thiefs becoming one of the worst class’s as theres more variety that is yet to be discovered in other class’s

@Knix

About self-rooting skills, I want you to remember that PW deal around 8-9k dmg and ca be used from the safety of stealth, an ele using churning earth deal 1/4 of the dmg, get self-rooted for far longer and has no access to stealth..ty

The problem with such builds as the Backstab build is, it may be countered in higher levels of skill and organized play.
But in lower brackets and/or more unorganized play, such builds flourish. They require much less effort or skill to pull off similar or greater reward.

And the argument l2p is nonsense. The player could very well be on equal skill or even better, but that profession/build is just to good at this point.
Requiring someone to vastly outskill someone else or bring highly specialized skills in order to stand a chance is not the way to balance a game.

Such builds should not even be viable to begin with. They are ineffective at highly competitive pvp, and serve no other purpose but to ez-mode through lower brackets and frustrate the hell out of a majority of the playerbase.

another thread about thief???
there is already a sticked one. can’t read?

Arheundel.6451:

@Knix

About self-rooting skills, I want you to remember that PW deal around 8-9k dmg and ca be used from the safety of stealth, an ele using churning earth deal 1/4 of the dmg, get self-rooted for far longer and has no access to stealth..ty

Precisely.

If the risk/reward were to be equivalent, Elementalist’s Churning Earth should do as much damage in the entire AoE as a thief’s backstab, but right now it’s not even close. It’s pathetic.

You guys are seriously overhyping backstab, it only deals 6-7k on a regularly armored person. Thief bursts are in line with warrior and elementalist damagewise. The major advantage thieves have going for them that warr/ele don’t is that they get to pick and choose their battles. That and one of the best elites in the game.

In low-level play thieves are good because they have really easy powerful bursts and most people freak out when they disappear. In high-level play they’re good because their elite allows them great odds against anything and shortbow lets them cover a huge amount of distance during a single 3-second stealth in the case they fail. Basically, warriors have at least the same damage and survivability, but if they get into an unbeatable matchup (say, another enemy appears while you’re fighting), they waste a huge amount of time and die.

Churning Earth is a terrible skill. Good bursts are the ones that have little to no risk when you play right (all have some combination of immobilize, stun and knockdown). Elementalist bursts are hidden into weird, hard-to-execute combos like Ride the Lightning+Lightning Strike+Blinding flash→Updraft→Signet of Earth→Dragon’s Tooth→Phoenix→Fire Grab. That one’s basically equivalent to Devourer Venom→Steal+Haste→Pistol Whip x2. Personally, i feel that eles cater to APM-crazy masochists.

Zyrusticae.7245:

Arheundel.6451:

@Knix

About self-rooting skills, I want you to remember that PW deal around 8-9k dmg and ca be used from the safety of stealth, an ele using churning earth deal 1/4 of the dmg, get self-rooted for far longer and has no access to stealth..ty

Precisely.

If the risk/reward were to be equivalent, Elementalist’s Churning Earth should do as much damage in the entire AoE as a thief’s backstab, but right now it’s not even close. It’s pathetic.

What is… I dont…

So you want an AoE to hit for a huge amount? There’s a reason why AoE’s hit lower than single target burst. Or else you people would be crying that an Elementalist just killed 5 people in one button.

hey guys. there is an thief ‘discussion’ thread stickied. why don’t you go there with your whines? do you have to open a new thread?

oh and before i forget it:

l2p.

IMO, the issue is here (and in some other MMOs) is that you don’t need toughness or vitality if you can effectively pick-and-choose your fights and escape if you don’t like the way they start.

I’d want to make sure that thieves kept the mobility necessary to do positioning, but I really don’t see why they need the ability to exit combat at will. It’s about as fun as giving every class a “teleport to last waypoint” option that they can use right before they die.

I think it would be worth testing something like making positioning skills a little more forgiving, replacing some mobility with evasion, and even increasing stealth durations if necessary. A thief needs the necessary tools to get the job done. If they fail to do that, they don’t deserve a get-out-of-jail-free card anymore than any other class does.

uncop

You guys are seriously overhyping backstab, it only deals 6-7k on a regularly armored person. Thief bursts are in line with warrior and elementalist damagewise.

My guildmate has 22k health on his thief and hits me for 6.9k. I have full defensive traits, full earth spec, full thoughness and vitality gear including signets etc…

No, don’t tell me the “elementalist is not a normal class, the others don’t get that damage” because even elementalist is a GW2 class for now.

Excuse me, but a 2,2k power, 68 crit damage thief backstab crits for 6.5-6.8k on a medium armor dummy. Thieves don’t cheese people to death with one or two hits, they use a combination like everyone else. Say, Mug→Cloak&dagger→Backstab→Heartseeker combo is in the 20k range assuming every single hit crits.