Guild Wars 2

As the title says, this is a minority game mode yet it is holding the other 2 quite literally hostage balance wise.

PvE:

Stale zeker meta for years since game launched, condi patch was supposed to make condi builds viable within or close to meta. After condi patch, necros and condi mesmers are still at bottom, only thing thats changed is burn burn eles and burn engis guards became viable but still underperforming.

PvP: Nerf burning, nerf all condis, we dont wanna play team comps for condi clears cuz we wanna run our zerkerz and kitten you for even thinking we may let you run anything except zerkerz outside of spvp ! cuz we rulez your balance ! How dare they come even close in performance to power builds !? Even these 3 should NEVER be allowed to perform at 80-90% effectiveness and need to be nerfed back down to oblivion !

WvW organized group play: still same meta, although a bit heavier on the ranged, its still vastly GWEN which is so boring many people have left the game from it and/or it was a large contributing factor in them doing so in addition to other issues with that game mode.

PvP: how dare you suggest there should be balance changes for anything other then 1 v1 or 5v5 !? We iz so skilled cuz we has mad skillz that will pwn you and your blob ! and when they tag us for lootbags as they run by we will come to forums and complain that we couldn’t solo their zerg on our super-pooper-scooper zerker buildz !

that is in addition to vast resources spent on this game mode while literally neglecting others. everything from special events to tournaments etc. which very few people even among this very crowd are interested in.

then on top of that you get high enough in ranks to enter mid-range+ and encounter the hostile playerbase. seriously.

So W T F !? you people wanna completely destroy the other game modes in order to have a balanced tourney ?

LOL just W T F !?

Tongku.5326:

…..

then on top of that you get high enough in ranks to enter mid-range+ and encounter the hostile playerbase. seriously.

So W T F !? you people wanna completely destroy the other game modes in order to have a balanced tourney ?

LOL just W T F !?

can’t stand those hostile pvp players always yelling at us, rite?

Tongku.5326:

PvP: Nerf burning, nerf all condis, we dont wanna play team comps for condi clears cuz we wanna run our zerkerz and kitten you for even thinking we may let you run anything except zerkerz outside of spvp ! cuz we rulez your balance ! How dare they come even close in performance to power builds !? Even these 3 should NEVER be allowed to perform at 80-90% effectiveness and need to be nerfed back down to oblivion !

Why? The meta right now is Bunker and Cele. Condis aren’t even all that great.

PvE meta is stale because the encounters are stale. I doubt they are going back to make the old content more interesting, but they have stated that their goal for new content is to be more challenging and make different builds desirable. We’ll see if they accomplish that, but you can’t blame PvP for PvE’s problem here.

Because Anet haven’t got the smarts to go through every single ability and change their effectiveness against player targets, which would completely destroy the “PvP ruined this for PvE” and vice versa argument.

Honestly us pvp could say the same about pve. We all agree we would be okay with a split anet doesn’t want to though so blame them.

Sorry, no.

PvE is stale and boring because the mobs are completely brain-dead. Apparently mobs were actually more intelligent during the first beta weekend, but it was “too hard” and ANet nerfed it.

The reason pvp “holds the rest of the game hostage” is because it is one of the only parts of the game where balance means anything at all.

If you are standing next to a person in your pve party and thier class isnt as good as yours.. Who cares.. You can be elitist and say.. “i dont want any of ???” but that is more of a personality issue than a balance issue. Because it has very little outcome on pve.

Wvw personal skill and balance matters very little also.. Pushing and pulling with a blob vs another blob is like playing lemmings or pikman more than any technical aspect of this game.

So Pvp dictates balance because it is the place where balance matters.. Where 1v1 2v2 2v1 etc are actually based on player skill + class strengths and weakness.

This stuff should be obvious and this thread shouldn’t exist.. But i hope this helped.

Lol spvp gets a single addition from hot and we get accused of hogging resources immediatly.

It’s been stated many times in this thread, but I’ll explain it in a slightly different way. The PvE meta is stale because the encounters are easy. Anet intended to have three roles: Damage, Control, and Support. They wanted players to be able to swap through these roles in the same fight, but builds would still lean one way or the other. However, support and control aren’t necessary because you kill everything before they would matter. Damage is split into power and condi damage. Condi is close to being even with power at this point, and it’s something they are working on. They aren’t just focusing on PvP balance. Regardless, do you really think that a condi damage PvE meta would be more interesting than a Zerker meta? It’s more of the same: pure damage. Unless they make control and support more necessary, nothing is going to change. And that has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with the encounters.

Is zerker in PvE too strong or are monsters too weak?

Tongku.5326:

As the title says, this is a minority game mode yet it is holding the other 2 quite literally hostage balance wise.

PvE:

Stale zeker meta for years since game launched, condi patch was supposed to make condi builds viable within or close to meta. After condi patch, necros and condi mesmers are still at bottom, only thing thats changed is burn burn eles and burn engis guards became viable but still underperforming.

PvP: Nerf burning, nerf all condis, we dont wanna play team comps for condi clears cuz we wanna run our zerkerz and kitten you for even thinking we may let you run anything except zerkerz outside of spvp ! cuz we rulez your balance ! How dare they come even close in performance to power builds !? Even these 3 should NEVER be allowed to perform at 80-90% effectiveness and need to be nerfed back down to oblivion !

WvW organized group play: still same meta, although a bit heavier on the ranged, its still vastly GWEN which is so boring many people have left the game from it and/or it was a large contributing factor in them doing so in addition to other issues with that game mode.

PvP: how dare you suggest there should be balance changes for anything other then 1 v1 or 5v5 !? We iz so skilled cuz we has mad skillz that will pwn you and your blob ! and when they tag us for lootbags as they run by we will come to forums and complain that we couldn’t solo their zerg on our super-pooper-scooper zerker buildz !

that is in addition to vast resources spent on this game mode while literally neglecting others. everything from special events to tournaments etc. which very few people even among this very crowd are interested in.

then on top of that you get high enough in ranks to enter mid-range+ and encounter the hostile playerbase. seriously.

So W T F !? you people wanna completely destroy the other game modes in order to have a balanced tourney ?

LOL just W T F !?

It always makes me laugh when someone makes a post and has no idea what they are talking about. I’m guessing you might be new to the game. I’ll enlighten you. ANET has the ability to balance separately between PvP and PvE.

In this forum, we want balance in PvP. ANET can do that. Calm down and go back to your corner stacking in PvE/dungeons.

Mesmer phantasm could use a hp buff in pve they die in 1 hit from all vet mobs

Some skills are already split between PvP and PvE.

But more importantly, PvE is “easy” because the old mobs are so bland.

Just look to how many self proclaimed “skilled” players got themselves obliterated by Smokestalkers and some of the other jungle wildlife in the Beta.

Why blame PvP players? Anet could balance separately for PvP and PVE/WvW they just choose not to.

morrolan.9608:

Why blame PvP players? Anet could balance separately for PvP and PVE/WvW they just choose not to.

This is actually the point. Anet held it hostage not the PvP community.

On another note WvW for roamers and small guilds is not blob v blob. Some (some) pvp require things like skill, timing, and game knowledge.

While it is nice to think that the world outside of PvP is simple and boring other people enjoy what you don’t. OHH what a shock! The same thing the OP said about PvP is basically what the PvP community in general thinks of PvE and WvW.

A little mutual respect (different strokes for different folks and all) would go a long way.

Do not trivialize the OP’s problem but understand he is just as frustrated as many of you are with the game mode he enjoys. He is simply targeting the wrong people.

You’re also assuming that people disagree because they don’t understand those other game modes. I play a lot of PvP, WvW, GvG, and PvE with a little roaming mixed in. I still think the OP is wrong about their conclusions.

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

You’re also assuming that people disagree because they don’t understand those other game modes. I play a lot of PvP, WvW, GvG, and PvE with a little roaming mixed in. I still think the OP is wrong about their conclusions.

Did I say OP was right or that he is frustrated like everyone else?

You said that Anet IS holding the balance hostage, and you imply that the people who disagree with that don’t understand the other game modes. Whether you blame Anet or the players doesn’t matter in that context if you’re wrong either way. Anet is not holding balance hostage for PvP.

Lol pve is stale because it’s scripted ai mobs that for the most part aren’t challenging and have had the most efficient farm methods developed

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

You said that Anet IS holding the balance hostage, and you imply that the people who disagree with that don’t understand the other game modes. Whether you blame Anet or the players doesn’t matter in that context if you’re wrong either way. Anet is not holding balance hostage for PvP.

Smh…sigh… take the blinders off please.

Anet is holding balance hostage in general. I did not say for PvP just that they are responsible for it. We do not control balance they do. Every meta is based on their decisions in the long run. We have little to no power over it we just adapt no matter the game mode. We can’t blame each other for this when none of us are at fault. We are all just customers.

I use words like “some” and “general” because not all A are B. Some players have a view about other game modes that paints things very black and white with little consideration or compassion. If you read many of the responses they trivialize the OPs frustration. His points you can take or leave but it does not change the fact he seems angry.

On a personal note to you. I get tired of people looking just to argue. Implying things I never said just looking to prove themselves right or wrong. Not everything has some deeper context. What I said was plain as day with a touch of sarcasm. “you imply that the people who disagree with that don’t understand the other game modes.” Nope not at all. Just that they should consider the OP is angry too. I get this “Let me prove this guy wrong!” attitude but I just do not feel like bothering anymore. I said my piece. If you want to find something to point out in what I said or read something into it that isn’t there that is up to you. You can solo that. The bold part is what really matters to me anyway.

Because PvP is the only competitive mode there is. PvE doesn’t need to be balanced, since you are not competing against each other, so it should be ignored.

Exedore.6320:

Apparently mobs were actually more intelligent during the first beta weekend, but it was “too hard” and ANet nerfed it.

The old AI from those times is still present in some parts of the game. A few of the Svanir mobs in nornland never had it removed and some of the class npcs you can fight in the mists use it as far as I’m aware.

I honestly think they’re doing their best trying to balance skills and professions between these two game modes but that’s just it. It’s near impossible. If they buff a skill/profession for pve it might end up being OP in pvp. And if they nerf something for pvp it might end up being useless for pve. I wish they will eventually give in and split skills for pve and pvp, then everyone would be happy.

Not being a wvw player myself, I wonder how the balance works there…

Tongku.5326:

As the title says, this is a minority game mode yet it is holding the other 2 quite literally hostage balance wise.

After condi patch, necros and condi mesmers are still at bottom, only thing thats changed is burn burn eles and burn engis guards became viable but still underperforming.

I’ve heard that actually Sinister condi engi has the highest DPS in PvE atm. And with the change to fractals (higher levels will increase mob toughness) it’ll become even more viable.

There are plenty of things Anet could nerf/buff in pve or WvW that wouldn’t affect PvP at all. For instance Ice Bow is such a dominant part of the PvE meta that basically every build’s viability depends on how well they can utilise it. Nothing holds them back, except the QQ on the ele forum.

They could also balance WvW condi thief, perplexity etc, because that wouldn’t affect other gamemodes either.

@TheGuy

Anet is holding balance hostage… in general… What is that even supposed to mean? Of course Anet balances the game. It’s their job. Saying they hold it hostage because you don’t like how they balance is idiotic at best.

Iavra.8510:

Because PvP is the only competitive mode there is. PvE doesn’t need to be balanced, since you are not competing against each other, so it should be ignored.

No it isn’t, last I checked WvW is as competitive as PvP, maybe not rewarding but certainly competitive.

PvP is the only standardised competitive game mode but it is not the only competitive.

Your last statement only shows how thoughtless and silly you are. Remember FGS corner stacking?

Granted they over nerfed the FGS (only needed to not stack the fire fields) but it wasn’t a lot of fun simply rushing into a corner and winning.

Because you couldn’t just FGS a wall against human enemies.

I am pretty frustrated about how many of the abilities in the game and basic design decisions seem to be focused on PvP viability, and PvP balance, with PvE balance taking a distant backseat. And no, PvPers, “but PvE doesn’t need to be balanced ’cos you can run anything in PvE” is NOT helping.

PvE needs to be balanced for PvE, so that any class you want to run has a valid role equal to any of the others. Every ability needs to be reasonably balanced for use in PvE. The Downed States need to be redesigned, so that they are less invested in frustrating stompers, and more invested in popping you back up when you fall to a pack of mobs, or in a puddle of DoTs.

But any PvPers kittenpond to this topic with comments along the lines of “The reason pvp ‘holds the rest of the game hostage’ is because it is one of the only parts of the game where balance means anything at all,” you’re just highlighting our point about how out of touch ANet seems on the matter.

Iavra.8510:

Because you couldn’t just FGS a wall against human enemies.

You miss the point entirely -.-

It made a mockery of all content that wasn’t PvP.

Additionally you could teleport at the beginning of a rush and stack all small fields on a human instagibbing them.

Tongku.5326:

Stale zeker meta for years since game launched, condi patch was supposed to make condi builds viable within or close to meta.

Whilst I agree that they have essentially balanced for PvP, really the problem with PvE is the PvE content is badly designed to the point it renders many skills / mechanisms in this game as pretty worthless, so what you end up with is nothing else really matters other than DPS and a side serving of skills like reflect, stealth (this in itself and stealthing past vast amounts of content is laughable), etc, really they ought to mend the PvE first.

But generally I agree, they balance essentially for PvP at the expense of everything else, overall across three modes this game has the worst balance I have ever encountered in an MMORPG, it doesn’t help that classes are not protected by having hard roles, but really the length of time certain classes have been bottom of the barrel and the difference in representation of classes across modes is by far the worse I have encountered.

I mean look at PvE, necro has been bottom of the barrel pretty much the entire game, meanwhile eles get stacked, or in WvW, as a generalisation for the last three years 4 classes make up the vast majority of zergs/raids/GvG, whilst the other four are far fewer in number to the point with classes like engy/ranger they have not even been recruited by most WvW guilds over the course of this game, never played an MMO like it, sure balance can be crappy at times in all games, but in every MMO I’ve played things actually change, the class that is bottom of the barrel gets buffed and a year later is strong, not in GW2…

The funny thing is even the PvP balance is a joke, go watch an ESL or something and count how many rangers you see, then count how virtually every team has an ele or double ele, or compare how thief has had a spot in nearly every team for 3 years, then compare how necro & ranger have been represented over that time.

Really part of the problem is they avoided using the trinity system but their “control, DPS, support” alternative does not work as well across multiple game modes, nor does it scale with numbers very well, so when you combine that with poor PvE content design and primarily balancing for PvP, you end up with a class balance train wreck in PvE & WvW.

I can understand balance is made on pvp becouse on pvp every people have the same gear , stat and so on but i also understand anet can not ignore that the major part of players, who payed for the game, are probably the pve component so probably the truth is in the middle . And i play quite only pvp , so i am not a pve fan boy .

Tongku shows an amazing lack of understanding for this game and should have posted this (if at all) in the PvE Forums, if i were a mod here I´d say topic closed^^

Fun fact, if ANet increased the toughness of monsters in PvE and lowered vitality, it would completely solve the issue of “we want to play low risk tanky condition builds but still do as much damage as full zerker players who actually have to be good at the game to get rewards”

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

@TheGuy

Anet is holding balance hostage… in general… What is that even supposed to mean? Of course Anet balances the game. It’s their job. Saying they hold it hostage because you don’t like how they balance is idiotic at best.

Sigh… take the blinders off please.

Anet can split the skills make them work entirely different in PvP, WvW, and PvE. They refuse to citing that it would be confusing for new players but with a player base this old and noting that it worked in GW1 it doesn’t make sense. Likely the amount of work required to balance all 3 is just too staggering in their opinion. So most of the game is balanced around PvP (due to esport). However, PvP players in general want PvP balance and have little or nothing to say on PvE balance or WvW balance. PvP players additionally rarely get balance just metas where a few builds are the strongest and many others just aren’t up to par.

Now I am not going to assume you are stupid just argumentative. You want to prove something go and try to if that will make you feel better. However, in case you are a bit daft let me paint you a picture.

PvP, WvW, and the PvE community all ask for balance. Anet holds balance in a cage. They try and get sit down meetings with Anet to discuss the release of balance but the situation has very little communication from the captor. When there is communication the response is something along the lines of “good things are coming”, this urges these communities to play on while waiting for balance’s release from imprisonment. However, during the wait many players give up. It takes too long and they either leave or say they will return when balance does. Everyone once in a while Anet releases a prisoner and calls it balance. It looks like balance at first but turns out to be another impostor. They do this often to the PvP community, rarely if ever to the PvE and WvW community. The PvE and WvW community usually knowing little of each other and PvP community sometimes lash out saying something along the lines of, “Anet is giving you balance but why not us? This is unfair!”. Little do they know no one is really getting balance.

Anet = Captor
Balance = Prisoner/Hostage
PvE, PvP, and WvW communities = The people paying the ransom

I think we are done now.

The condescension is real. I honestly don’t know how to respond to this magnitude of stupid.

Whilst I agree that they have essentially balanced for PvP, really the problem with PvE is the PvE content is badly designed to the point it renders many skills / mechanisms in this game as pretty worthless,

I really think that’s a chicken/egg scenario. PvPers tend to believe that the solution to PvE is to make it more like PvP, because they like PvP. But if a player likes PvP, then why wouldn’t he be PvPing? I don’t want PvE to be more like PvP, I enjoy how it currently plays, I just want them to make sure that all the abilities, builds and classes they put into the game are balanced against that content.