Guild Wars 2

To explain, I’ll just go through two views:

The QQer: Gives a reason (Could even be a good reason), why a build is overpowered. People either completely agree, or they pull the ‘you don’t know the class, you suck, learn to fight the build’ card.

The Defender: The person defending their OP (Or most likely not OP)build, always gets battered with the ‘You just don’t want to be nerfed, you suck, you want to keep your build so you do well’ card.

I mean, it never ends well, it just ends with it escalating and people being pricks to each other. Why have we been doing the same exact thing for like 2 years? Heck, why do we come here to complain to other people, and not the devs themselves? We could have actual meaningful threads if we could directly contact them about the ‘balance’ issues.

I mean, this part of the forums is just toxic and everywhere is mild.

Because as you point out the arguments are going to inescapably be premised on some sort of arbitrary value judgement. The only opinion that ultimately matters is that of the devs and whilst they may decide to listen to the limited forum feedback they get they also have the power to completely ignore it and decide to do whatever they think is best.

It seems to me to be utterly pointless to engage in opinion debates and that the only intelligent strategy for feedback is “I don’t like this” or “I like this.”

Tempest: Shocking Aura to entire team nearly permanently while spamming the ridiculous massive AoE damage of Overcharge Air.

Reaper: Permanent chill and far more CC on Reaper Form while they get high stability up time and better damage than base and Rise gives too much sustain and damage in one skill.

Druid: New pets are obvious upgrades over base, too much free sustain for non bunker builds, ignore the people who complain about Astral Force generation because staff is probably the best weapon in one slot either way, too much immobilize if they take Ancient Seeds.

Dragon Hunter: Traps in general with their nearly instant ridiculous damage, CC and utility. Virtues are pure upgrades over base besides possibly Resolve since it can be interrupted but everything else about it is better. Too much CC in general with LB grandmaster, LB5, Justice pull and elite trap giving 12 seconds of barrier spam. Too tanky with a damage build compared to a normal Guardian damage build.

Chronomancer: 10 seconds of easily hit stuns that hit in a massive AoE and remove multiple stacks of stability. Need to remove Continuum or at least the cooldown reset portion which would solve above.

Scrapper: Too much defense and damage combined on the hammer combined with base Engineer amazingness with a free revive/stomp support.

Berserker: Pretty ridiculous condition damage and CC with mace.

Daredevil: Too much condition removal on dodge, but I still die on my bunker Thief to condition builds nearly instantly so…

Herald: Too much block/evade spam combined with amazing damage and healing. Hammer zerkers do some broken damage from ridiculous ranges with Coalescence of Ruin with just one use and it has nearly no cooldown.

In no actual order.

Timiok.1048:

To explain, I’ll just go through two views:

The QQer: Gives a reason (Could even be a good reason), why a build is overpowered. People either completely agree, or they pull the ‘you don’t know the class, you suck, learn to fight the build’ card.

The Defender: The person defending their OP (Or most likely not OP)build, always gets battered with the ‘You just don’t want to be nerfed, you suck, you want to keep your build so you do well’ card.

I mean, it never ends well, it just ends with it escalating and people being pricks to each other. Why have we been doing the same exact thing for like 2 years? Heck, why do we come here to complain to other people, and not the devs themselves? We could have actual meaningful threads if we could directly contact them about the ‘balance’ issues.

I mean, this part of the forums is just toxic and everywhere is mild.

ITA.

Although, I would change “The QQer” to something else, personally, as that in itself is a pretty inflammatory term.

Not sure what I’d change it to, though?

“The Nerf Requester”?

Not exactly snappy, but more neutral.

glaphen.5230:

Tempest: Shocking Aura to entire team nearly permanently while spamming the ridiculous massive AoE damage of Overcharge Air.

Reaper: Permanent chill and far more CC on Reaper Form while they get high stability up time and better damage than base and Rise gives too much sustain and damage in one skill.

Druid: New pets are obvious upgrades over base, too much free sustain for non bunker builds, ignore the people who complain about Astral Force generation because staff is probably the best weapon in one slot either way, too much immobilize if they take Ancient Seeds.

Dragon Hunter: Traps in general with their nearly instant ridiculous damage, CC and utility. Virtues are pure upgrades over base besides possibly Resolve since it can be interrupted but everything else about it is better. Too much CC in general with LB grandmaster, LB5, Justice pull and elite trap giving 12 seconds of barrier spam. Too tanky with a damage build compared to a normal Guardian damage build.

Chronomancer: 10 seconds of easily hit stuns that hit in a massive AoE and remove multiple stacks of stability. Need to remove Continuum or at least the cooldown reset portion which would solve above.

Scrapper: Too much defense and damage combined on the hammer combined with base Engineer amazingness with a free revive/stomp support.

Berserker: Pretty ridiculous condition damage and CC with mace.

Daredevil: Too much condition removal on dodge, but I still die on my bunker Thief to condition builds nearly instantly so…

Herald: Too much block/evade spam combined with amazing damage and healing. Hammer zerkers do some broken damage from ridiculous ranges with Coalescence of Ruin with just one use and it has nearly no cooldown.

In no actual order.

You kind of contradicted yourself, by saying every class is OP would in fact make all the classes balanced.

o.0

Wolfs Shadow.7234:

glaphen.5230:

Tempest: Shocking Aura to entire team nearly permanently while spamming the ridiculous massive AoE damage of Overcharge Air.

Reaper: Permanent chill and far more CC on Reaper Form while they get high stability up time and better damage than base and Rise gives too much sustain and damage in one skill.

Druid: New pets are obvious upgrades over base, too much free sustain for non bunker builds, ignore the people who complain about Astral Force generation because staff is probably the best weapon in one slot either way, too much immobilize if they take Ancient Seeds.

Dragon Hunter: Traps in general with their nearly instant ridiculous damage, CC and utility. Virtues are pure upgrades over base besides possibly Resolve since it can be interrupted but everything else about it is better. Too much CC in general with LB grandmaster, LB5, Justice pull and elite trap giving 12 seconds of barrier spam. Too tanky with a damage build compared to a normal Guardian damage build.

Chronomancer: 10 seconds of easily hit stuns that hit in a massive AoE and remove multiple stacks of stability. Need to remove Continuum or at least the cooldown reset portion which would solve above.

Scrapper: Too much defense and damage combined on the hammer combined with base Engineer amazingness with a free revive/stomp support.

Berserker: Pretty ridiculous condition damage and CC with mace.

Daredevil: Too much condition removal on dodge, but I still die on my bunker Thief to condition builds nearly instantly so…

Herald: Too much block/evade spam combined with amazing damage and healing. Hammer zerkers do some broken damage from ridiculous ranges with Coalescence of Ruin with just one use and it has nearly no cooldown.

In no actual order.

You kind of contradicted yourself, by saying every class is OP would in fact make all the classes balanced.

o.0

Now think of the people without the expansion with these supposed side grade options. Not like they are all at the same level of OP, just listed pieces that are possibly OP.

Wolfs Shadow.7234:

glaphen.5230:

Tempest: Shocking Aura to entire team nearly permanently while spamming the ridiculous massive AoE damage of Overcharge Air.

Reaper: Permanent chill and far more CC on Reaper Form while they get high stability up time and better damage than base and Rise gives too much sustain and damage in one skill.

Druid: New pets are obvious upgrades over base, too much free sustain for non bunker builds, ignore the people who complain about Astral Force generation because staff is probably the best weapon in one slot either way, too much immobilize if they take Ancient Seeds.

Dragon Hunter: Traps in general with their nearly instant ridiculous damage, CC and utility. Virtues are pure upgrades over base besides possibly Resolve since it can be interrupted but everything else about it is better. Too much CC in general with LB grandmaster, LB5, Justice pull and elite trap giving 12 seconds of barrier spam. Too tanky with a damage build compared to a normal Guardian damage build.

Chronomancer: 10 seconds of easily hit stuns that hit in a massive AoE and remove multiple stacks of stability. Need to remove Continuum or at least the cooldown reset portion which would solve above.

Scrapper: Too much defense and damage combined on the hammer combined with base Engineer amazingness with a free revive/stomp support.

Berserker: Pretty ridiculous condition damage and CC with mace.

Daredevil: Too much condition removal on dodge, but I still die on my bunker Thief to condition builds nearly instantly so…

Herald: Too much block/evade spam combined with amazing damage and healing. Hammer zerkers do some broken damage from ridiculous ranges with Coalescence of Ruin with just one use and it has nearly no cooldown.

In no actual order.

You kind of contradicted yourself, by saying every class is OP would in fact make all the classes balanced.

o.0

Well, firstly, he could mean compared with the old, pre-existing specs?

These “elite” specs shouldn’t actually be “elite” in terms of being better than everything else.

Secondly, he could be listing the things he feels are OP about each spec, but not implying those things make them all equally OP, in terms of their overall strength.

Some might be (and almost certainly are) more OP elite specs than others.

glaphen.5230:

Wolfs Shadow.7234:

glaphen.5230:

Tempest: Shocking Aura to entire team nearly permanently while spamming the ridiculous massive AoE damage of Overcharge Air.

Reaper: Permanent chill and far more CC on Reaper Form while they get high stability up time and better damage than base and Rise gives too much sustain and damage in one skill.

Druid: New pets are obvious upgrades over base, too much free sustain for non bunker builds, ignore the people who complain about Astral Force generation because staff is probably the best weapon in one slot either way, too much immobilize if they take Ancient Seeds.

Dragon Hunter: Traps in general with their nearly instant ridiculous damage, CC and utility. Virtues are pure upgrades over base besides possibly Resolve since it can be interrupted but everything else about it is better. Too much CC in general with LB grandmaster, LB5, Justice pull and elite trap giving 12 seconds of barrier spam. Too tanky with a damage build compared to a normal Guardian damage build.

Chronomancer: 10 seconds of easily hit stuns that hit in a massive AoE and remove multiple stacks of stability. Need to remove Continuum or at least the cooldown reset portion which would solve above.

Scrapper: Too much defense and damage combined on the hammer combined with base Engineer amazingness with a free revive/stomp support.

Berserker: Pretty ridiculous condition damage and CC with mace.

Daredevil: Too much condition removal on dodge, but I still die on my bunker Thief to condition builds nearly instantly so…

Herald: Too much block/evade spam combined with amazing damage and healing. Hammer zerkers do some broken damage from ridiculous ranges with Coalescence of Ruin with just one use and it has nearly no cooldown.

In no actual order.

You kind of contradicted yourself, by saying every class is OP would in fact make all the classes balanced.

o.0

Now think of the people without the expansion with these supposed side grade options. Not like they are all at the same level of OP, just listed pieces that are possibly OP.

Hi, that’s me. I think I’m the only normal Necro I’ve seen in the last 5 days.

Timiok.1048:

I mean, this part of the forums is just toxic and everywhere is mild.

no, i disagree.

the PvE forum (general discussions) is way more toxic than our this PvP forum.

seriously, have you any idea the amount of elitism PvE people raging whining just because the total amount of hero points to unlock an elite specialization in PvE is reduced from 400 to 250?

Timiok.1048:

Why have we been doing the same exact thing for like 2 years? Heck, why do we come here to complain to other people, and not the devs themselves? We could have actual meaningful threads if we could directly contact them about the ‘balance’ issues.

I mean, this part of the forums is just toxic and everywhere is mild.

To be honest, the only thing that can be toxic is two players offering two different experiences based on their own point of view that may or may not be 100% accurate. These heated debates could originate from

• #1 The competitive realm they compete on.
  SoloQ meta is different than Team ESL play

• #2 Learn 2 Play elements from the player himself.
  including engagement strategies on the map

• #3 The build a particular person plays
  using a non-meta build for example

• #4 A one sided aspect that’s seen on one build from one class, while the other professions have 0 issues

The first three, in order, are the most common. It’s why they’re mentioned first.

A perfect example is a Thief calling burn guard OP when other classes typically have 0 issues with it. The thief is right in that this particular build is OP. But the build itself is not OP compared to other classes. These other classes think it’s a l2p issue as the thief shouldn’t should have played the map better from the get-go.

The majority of the QQ thread originates from solo players on unsyncronized teams. Considering the vast majority of players are new, #2 and #3 suddenly stick out like a sore thumb.

Saiyan.1704:

Timiok.1048:

Why have we been doing the same exact thing for like 2 years? Heck, why do we come here to complain to other people, and not the devs themselves? We could have actual meaningful threads if we could directly contact them about the ‘balance’ issues.

I mean, this part of the forums is just toxic and everywhere is mild.

To be honest, the only thing that can be toxic is two players offering two different experiences based on their own point of view that may or may not be 100% accurate. These heated debates could originate from

• #1 The competitive realm they compete on.
  SoloQ meta is different than Team ESL play

• #2 Learn 2 Play elements from the player himself.
  including engagement strategies on the map

• #3 The build a particular person plays
  using a non-meta build for example

• #4 A one sided aspect that’s seen on one build from one class, while the other professions have 0 issues

The first three, in order, are the most common. It’s why they’re mentioned first.

A perfect example is a Thief calling burn guard OP when other classes typically have 0 issues with it. The thief is right in that this particular build is OP. But the build itself is not OP compared to other classes. These other classes think it’s a l2p issue as the thief shouldn’t should have played the map better from the get-go.

The majority of the QQ thread originates from solo players on unsyncronized teams. Considering the vast majority of players are new, #2 and #3 suddenly stick out like a sore thumb.

+1 this is all so true. A lot of the toxicity tho starts from the OP’s post. Has a lot to do with the mentality here. I see X is OP or Nerf Y 50x more than How do you deal with Z. Thats the problem from there it just end up into one of your 4 categories you mentioned.

A lot of people that post on here also have issues with tone when writing and everything comes across as condescending and belittling instead of constructive advice.

Eval.2371:

Saiyan.1704:

Timiok.1048:

Why have we been doing the same exact thing for like 2 years? Heck, why do we come here to complain to other people, and not the devs themselves? We could have actual meaningful threads if we could directly contact them about the ‘balance’ issues.

I mean, this part of the forums is just toxic and everywhere is mild.

To be honest, the only thing that can be toxic is two players offering two different experiences based on their own point of view that may or may not be 100% accurate. These heated debates could originate from

• #1 The competitive realm they compete on.
  SoloQ meta is different than Team ESL play

• #2 Learn 2 Play elements from the player himself.
  including engagement strategies on the map

• #3 The build a particular person plays
  using a non-meta build for example

• #4 A one sided aspect that’s seen on one build from one class, while the other professions have 0 issues

The first three, in order, are the most common. It’s why they’re mentioned first.

A perfect example is a Thief calling burn guard OP when other classes typically have 0 issues with it. The thief is right in that this particular build is OP. But the build itself is not OP compared to other classes. These other classes think it’s a l2p issue as the thief shouldn’t should have played the map better from the get-go.

The majority of the QQ thread originates from solo players on unsyncronized teams. Considering the vast majority of players are new, #2 and #3 suddenly stick out like a sore thumb.

+1 this is all so true. A lot of the toxicity tho starts from the OP’s post. Has a lot to do with the mentality here. I see X is OP or Nerf Y 50x more than How do you deal with Z. Thats the problem from there it just end up into one of your 4 categories you mentioned.

A lot of people that post on here also have issues with tone when writing and everything comes across as condescending and belittling instead of constructive advice.

So how do I deal with the Z in the entirety of my post.

Offer advice on how to deal with things when people complain. Leave people that are throwing tantrums alone. Sadly I feel its beyond us to actually get the community to stop think, try new things and reason like adults with each other. Which is ultimately what these forums need.

Anet also continues to reinforce the crying behavior by responding to it via posts, balance or game changes. Anet really need to put down the foot in some places and say learn to deal with it.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Timiok.1048:

I mean, this part of the forums is just toxic and everywhere is mild.

no, i disagree.

the PvE forum (general discussions) is way more toxic than our this PvP forum.

seriously, have you any idea the amount of elitism PvE people raging whining just because the total amount of hero points to unlock an elite specialization in PvE is reduced from 400 to 250?

I know.

Sadomasochists only, in there, I think.

I don’t care if they’re masochistic, whatever floats their boats; but I do care if they try to insist that we all are.

For one thing, you can’t logically insist that other people become masochists, like you…

They either are, or they aren’t and trying to impose your own masochism onto them, against their will, amounts to sadism.

Which is (or should be) illegal.

Had more than enough of that weird type of behaviour, in WoW, TYVM.

Even if it’s “just” about a game, it’s borderline creepy.

Tigaseye.2047:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Timiok.1048:

I mean, this part of the forums is just toxic and everywhere is mild.

no, i disagree.

the PvE forum (general discussions) is way more toxic than our this PvP forum.

seriously, have you any idea the amount of elitism PvE people raging whining just because the total amount of hero points to unlock an elite specialization in PvE is reduced from 400 to 250?

I know.

Sadomasochists only, in there, I think.

I don’t care if they’re masochistic, whatever floats their boats; but I do care if they try to insist that we all are.

For one thing, you can’t logically insist that other people become masochists, like you…

They either are, or they aren’t and trying to impose your own masochism onto them, against their will, amounts to sadism.

Which is (or should be) illegal.

Had more than enough of that weird type of behaviour, in WoW, TYVM.

Even if it’s “just” about a game, it’s borderline creepy.

^ Thought someone might think that, but I’m not.

It’s just a fact that, in these types of games, there exist not only people who demand to be grind-punished by the game makers, but who also seem to take great pleasure in insisting that everyone else is.

In fact, if anything, they seem to be more interested in the idea of everyone else being “punished” by content, than themselves being “satisfied”.

I’m, obviously, not suggesting that this is, necessarily, a sexual thing…

Although, I think it’s fair to say that Freud would have had a field day and perhaps, with some justification, this time.

Obviously, there has to be a certain amount of repeated content, in MMOs, but demanding that games companies make games even more grindy than is necessary is totally bizarre.

The only reasonable position to take, if you enjoy grind in games (for some unknown reason) yourself, is this:

“I enjoy grind, so would like more of it.

However, I totally understand that many/most other people don’t feel the same way, so it would obviously [or at least “perhaps”] need to be optional."

…and yet, what do you actually see them say, all the time?

Some, or all, of the following:

“You SHOULD have to work hard. This isn’t grind. Suck it up, or leave. Entitled kids.”.

Perhaps some, or all, of them are just trolling?

But, if not, they show no consideration for others, no flexibility, no acceptance that we all view these things differently and an absolute insistence that everyone should be forced to play like them, or leave.

That is not a reasonable request, as it is not just about what they want; it is about what they insist is imposed on others.

…and yet, games companies are apparently viewing these comments and blindly adding them to the Yes and No piles, as if they are of equal weight and of equal value as the reasonable comments.

That is, pretty obviously (you would have thought), a huge mistake.

Eh.

I hear words like “overpowered”, “ridiculous”, “immortal”, “faceroll” and the like so often that I don’t even bother now, unless the topic in question is a flat out lie about mechanics. Its either “l2p” or “op pls nerf” from people who more often than not go under dev radar, and rarely is there an overwhelming consensus on anything as regards balance so-

Just gonna play -around- all the bullkitten I suppose and actually have fun

Saiyan.1704:

To be honest, the only thing that can be toxic is two players offering two different experiences based on their own point of view that may or may not be 100% accurate. These heated debates could originate from

• #1 The competitive realm they compete on.
  SoloQ meta is different than Team ESL play

• #2 Learn 2 Play elements from the player himself.
  including engagement strategies on the map

• #3 The build a particular person plays
  using a non-meta build for example

• #4 A one sided aspect that’s seen on one build from one class, while the other professions have 0 issues

5. Saying a mechanic or build is fine because it isn’t prominent in high level play.

A part of the problem that noone mentioned is that ‘reading’ fights in this game is rather difficult with the over-the-top spell effects and what not. If it was easier to analyze ones’ mistakes the cry out in the forums would be a lot rarer, at least that is what I think.
Plenty of times in pvp I still think, “wtf just happened” and you get little to no time to analyze the situation since the match is still going on.

Exedore.6320:

Saiyan.1704:

To be honest, the only thing that can be toxic is two players offering two different experiences based on their own point of view that may or may not be 100% accurate. These heated debates could originate from

• #1 The competitive realm they compete on.
  SoloQ meta is different than Team ESL play

• #2 Learn 2 Play elements from the player himself.
  including engagement strategies on the map

• #3 The build a particular person plays
  using a non-meta build for example

• #4 A one sided aspect that’s seen on one build from one class, while the other professions have 0 issues

5. Saying a mechanic or build is fine because it isn’t prominent in high level play.

That’s in #1, #3 and partly #4, depending on the complaint.

Condi Mesmer prepatch for example. People QQ nerf on them in soloQ when they weren’t even an issue in higher tier play.

Same for RoF on Ele
Same for Burn Guardian’s PF once RoF got nerfed.
Same for condi mesmers

No one in higher tier play had issues with these items except for soloQ players. It’s why the devs didn’t nerf burn guards… not just because the meta was about to change, because it was soloq complaints.