I come from DAoC. Loved the rvr system, balanced and fluid and didn’t allow for mistakes. You had to pay attention to cooldowns, timers, icons, CC so you didn’t break it etc. If you did break CC, the person became immune to those same negative effects for a certain duration. I love GW2 for it’s combat system, it’s unique and elegant in it’s own way but I don’t understand the thought process behind how conditions work.
Forgive me, but, it seems no matter what meta it is, conditions always seem to come out on top leaving power metas behind.
Why?
Simple. It’s too passive and easy. You can simply apply, and re-apply conditions whenever you choose, there is no immunity, there are no cool down’s it’s just passive, skill less spam. Spam Wars 2.
In previous MMO’s I’ve played you can augment such things as magic resistance, resistance to a certain elemental type, or negate them all together for a short period of time.
Certain stats would affect this.
All I am saying is, if toughness affects how hard you get hit by melee, and power dictates how hard you’ll hit with power, and condition damage dictates how much conditions tick for, then why is there no stat that at least defends against one type or all conditions?
Even if we had options to stack resistances versus one type of condi so it wouldn’t be so damaging or it’s effects were reduced, it would be better than nothing. Maybe I’d like some more resistance to confusion, or burning, or bleeding. Something.
For example: Chilled characters appear blue tinted, move 66% slower and skills recharge ~40% slower. For every 1.66 seconds chilled, only 1 second of cooldown will have expired.
Maybe with resistance it could be like 66%/44%/33%/22% etc and skills recharge in 40/30/20/10s slower intervals based on your level of resistance.
This game has literally evolved into fire and forget passive gameplay. If something like what I suggested above was implemented, gameplay would be more immense, longer, battles would be more engaging, and there would actually be some strategy.
(edited by Furajir.3815)
Why would you need a stat to reduce the damage if you can just cleanse it/ dodge the condition applying skills?
(Did you play Aion be4?)
I did not no.
And I get the cleansing, but that’s all there is. A constant cycle of cleansing, reapplication. Reapplication is easier than cleansing.
ofc, if you could cleanse everything that gets applied there would be zero use in going condi.
Welcome to the conversation.
The same argument can be made towards power/ toughness. If you can block a melee attack whats the point of having toughness?
EDIT: the weakness condi has to be looked at as well
Health is the anti condi stat. You can also become immune through resistance, cleanse condis numerous ways, dodge/block the application, shorten duration through some runes/food/traits, transfer condis, convert them into boons, etc. There are actually more options to deal with conditions than direct damage.
We don’t need an armor like stat specifically for conditions.
Because people have access to tons and tons of blocks that have no timers?
The same argument can be made towards power/ toughness. If you can block a melee attack whats the point of having toughness?
EDIT: the weakness condi has to be looked at as well
as you say in your edit, in contrary condition damage, power damage doesnt have a ramp up time, it hits you and you are dead or you survive.
you can react to condition damage with cleansing.
blocking is just like another dodged skill
The OP is simply referencing anti-element attributes which exist in every other game within the same genre of GW2. Hell, these attributes even existed in GW1.
He has a good point to bring up actually, no need to bust his balls. It honestly would have brought stronger dynamic to build structures and the game in general, if things like ruby orbs added fire resistance, emerald added poison resistance, ect.. ect..
To the OP: Yes, I have also noticed the short comings of a system that has no differentiation between physical/elemental/status effects such as bleed. The biggest problem is how easy it is to figure out optimized defenses based only upon toughness/vitality/condi clear and of course dodges/blocks/evades/invulns. All of these stats broadly mitigate all types of attacks and are too easy to optimize. If there were distinctions between damage types, the meta wouldn’t be so “easy” to figure out. In fact the game would probably look more like GW1, where the meta rolled over every month due to new builds emerging month to month, only to counter the previous flavor of the month. Honestly it was more fun that way.
(edited by Trevor Boyer.6524)
If you came in the beginning the holy trinity of GW2 was Power/Precision/Crit Dmg. Condi’s were considered useless especially in pve. Zerker had long been the king, and only recently has Condi really made an impact. Yes Condi builds existed. P/d thieves, condi rangers, and even condi warrs, not to mention terror burn necs were around for pvp but were never considered top tier, or meta at the time.
But as everyone else mentioned there is counters to condi. Read above for some examples.
The OP is simply referencing anti-element attributes which exist in every other game within the same genre of GW2. Hell, these attributes even existed in GW1.
He has a good point to bring up actually, no need to bust his balls. It honestly would have brought stronger dynamic to build structures and the game in general, if things like ruby orbs added fire resistance, emerald added poison resistance, ect.. ect..
To the OP: Yes, I have also noticed the short comings of a system that has no differentiation between physical/elemental/status effects such as bleed.
This is all I am simply saying.
If you have high toughness, let’s say, as a necro, PLUS DS, you have a massive health pool that would take a pure zerker class to break through, let’s say warrior in this case. Let’s say the Necro has a 30s heal timer, if you think that between 1 block, and a handful of condi cleanses that a Warrior will be able to simply power melee down that condi user in that time frame, between all of the cc, cleanses, heals, DS uses etc that the Necro can dish out, you’re not understanding the major point.
The creep is simply too high for most to combat effectively, and for conditions being so passive…I have to hit you, with a melee weapon, within range, consistently, and over long enough between all that to actually down you. Conditions are applied and PASSIVELY ticking on you, multiple conditions, for that entire time frame you may or may not even be within range of me. Hell even Endure Pain only works against physical. Factor in confusion/torment and you have even more conditions that punish you for simply playing and defending yourself lol.
(edited by Furajir.3815)
The OP is simply referencing anti-element attributes which exist in every other game within the same genre of GW2. Hell, these attributes even existed in GW1.
He has a good point to bring up actually, no need to bust his balls. It honestly would have brought stronger dynamic to build structures and the game in general, if things like ruby orbs added fire resistance, emerald added poison resistance, ect.. ect..
To the OP: Yes, I have also noticed the short comings of a system that has no differentiation between physical/elemental/status effects such as bleed.
This is all I am simply saying.
If you have high toughness, let’s say, as a necro, PLUS DS, you have a massive health pool that would take a pure zerker class to break through, let’s say warrior in this case. Let’s say the Necro has a 30s heal timer, if you think that between 1 block, and a handful of condi cleanses that a Warrior will be able to simply power melee down that condi user in that time frame, between all of the cc, cleanses, heals, DS uses etc that the Necro can dish out, you’re not understanding the major point.
The creep is simply too high for most to combat effectively, and for conditions being so passive…I have to hit you, with a melee weapon, within range, consistently, and over long enough between all that to actually down you. Conditions are applied and PASSIVELY ticking on you, multiple conditions, for that entire time frame you may or may not even be within range of me. Hell even Endure Pain only works against physical.
Actually conditions eat thru your shroud too, any damage really, and since condi’s stack in intensity it will chew your shroud, and spit it out. If you’re not careful. Only reason it seems like it takes a bit is because most meta necs will pick a trait that reduces dps to it from ALL sources not just zerk.
The only viable condi classes in PVP are Necro first and Mesmer a distant second. If any more condi-hate gets thrown in the game then Anet might as well patch out condition damage altogether.
The OP is simply referencing anti-element attributes which exist in every other game within the same genre of GW2. Hell, these attributes even existed in GW1.
He has a good point to bring up actually, no need to bust his balls. It honestly would have brought stronger dynamic to build structures and the game in general, if things like ruby orbs added fire resistance, emerald added poison resistance, ect.. ect..
To the OP: Yes, I have also noticed the short comings of a system that has no differentiation between physical/elemental/status effects such as bleed.
This is all I am simply saying.
If you have high toughness, let’s say, as a necro, PLUS DS, you have a massive health pool that would take a pure zerker class to break through, let’s say warrior in this case. Let’s say the Necro has a 30s heal timer, if you think that between 1 block, and a handful of condi cleanses that a Warrior will be able to simply power melee down that condi user in that time frame, between all of the cc, cleanses, heals, DS uses etc that the Necro can dish out, you’re not understanding the major point.
The creep is simply too high for most to combat effectively, and for conditions being so passive…I have to hit you, with a melee weapon, within range, consistently, and over long enough between all that to actually down you. Conditions are applied and PASSIVELY ticking on you, multiple conditions, for that entire time frame you may or may not even be within range of me. Hell even Endure Pain only works against physical.
Actually conditions eat thru your shroud too, any damage really, and since condi’s stack in intensity it will chew your shroud, and spit it out. If you’re not careful. Only reason it seems like it takes a bit is because most meta necs will pick a trait that reduces dps to it from ALL sources not just zerk.
This just in!
Damage of any kind decreases time in shroud and condis stack in intensity.
News at 11.
Let’s get real. The only ones that enjoy this messy, condi-bomb meta are those that main those classes. Everywhere you look on the forums it’s abundantly clear nobody likes the meta.
Anet have made some poor choices with some condition applying traits, sigils and runes but generally condition application is tied to skills which are subject to the same or similar cooldowns as a power variant. For example, current hybrid/condi Mes gets almost all of its condition application from shatters. Instead of being hit with high upfront damage you are instead ladden with conditions of which you can then mitigate the damage with cleansing. Dodging both power and hybrid/condition shatters is the same.
Also, as condition damage is not attenuated outside of a few traits on specific classes, the stat that counters condition application can be commonly be thought of as vitality. Healing over time can also be thought of as an anti-condition mechanic if it proceeds per second. Then we all know about cleansing and resistance etc.
However, you do touch upon something else that’s certainly quite interesting – specific resistances to certain conditions. It would certainly be cool if this existed as something separate to class choice – as we already have % reduction traits across most classes. It would be risky though, as it’s only recently that condition builds are gaining relevance in sPvP and only really with Necro and Mesmer (sort of). Even these builds are using Mercenary’s as it’s a better choice than a tanky condi amulet.
Let’s get real. The only ones that enjoy this messy, condi-bomb meta are those that main those classes. Everywhere you look on the forums it’s abundantly clear nobody likes the meta.
Cause they can’t get their shiney wings? You also see those who say the meta is just fine, you seen people defend their thieves. Some who argue warrior is viable etc. No I don’t think it’s everywhere. You will see those who cry foul, and others who say “git gud scrub”.
There is some anti condi “things”, but I am sure that a resistance stats system would be great.
1- The boon Resistance, is just that.
2- Minus condition time on some runes (hoelbrak and melandru — spelling)
3- Blinds, Aegis, Dodge, Some invuln type.
4- Cleanse
I would agree to complexify the system, since it’s an RPG. But… man, they had dumb down it since 2013. So, not sure why they would make it more complex again.
Wait don’t you have reduction in durations which are sort of like resistances in a way? Take Holenbrack runes or mecha legs or whatevs.
Vitality and healing power counter it.
Sustain and a big hp counters condos extreme well while getting spiked down with power spike burst doesn’t help .
And btw if you look at condi builds in the meta it’s only 2 of the current 7-9viable builds.
Seriously this pops up once a month pls stop
-20% condi duration is laughably bad. And no one is taking Heolbrak, that’s part of the issues with Warriors. No matter how much defense you stack, tough, vit etc you won’t kill anyone and you’re still gonna go down like a sack of potatoes.
We also get pigeonholed between picking a offensive approach or defensive, we don’t get the best of both worlds like all the new trait lines get, which is why I prefer to stay Vanilla for now.
As an Engi what should I be taking, currently running mecha legs and heolbrak. I find it does seem to help my survivability. I even think it might be part of the meta… are you sure about the things you say?
Ah perhaps you meant No warrior is taking Heolbrak ? As opposed to noone takes it and that the problem with warriors. Which would have implied as written that the problem with warriors is that noone (including other classes) takes Heolbrak?
“-20% condi duration is laughably bad. And no one is taking Heolbrak, that’s part of the issues with Warriors.”
(edited by shion.2084)
Vitality and healing power counter it.
Sustain and a big hp counters condos extreme well while getting spiked down with power spike burst doesn’t help .
And btw if you look at condi builds in the meta it’s only 2 of the current 7-9viable builds.
Seriously this pops up once a month pls stop
Because EVERYONE stacks vitality and healing power, especially warriors and thieves.
Pls not srs. Can’t be srs.
If you have troubles against condos and do not build to fight them.
Don’t engage or don’t be sad when u go splat
As an Engi what should I be taking, currently running mecha legs and heolbrak. I find it does seem to help my survivability. I even think it might be part of the meta… are you sure about the things you say?
Wow that’s amazing, you get to take 2 things that help because it fits in your build. What if Mecha legs wasn’t in Inventions line, but another line where you had to choose between it or another skill that kept your class alive.
Warrior again, if I go defense, I give up 30% or more damage, and then I get to pick between Dogged march (which doesn’t give move speed) or shield master, which is pretty key to improving survivability.
Any other brain busting questions? Have you ever played any other class?
If you have troubles against condos and do not build to fight them.
Don’t engage or don’t be sad when u go splat
Please. Show me your super effective meta warrior build that deals damage AND has all these amazing condition clearing abilities you speak of. I’ll wait while you construct the best build to date that offers both damage and survivability/sustain.
Warrior isn’t viable for many reasons:/
warr is unviable against condi and power classes… its clear here the problem is underperforming warrs not overperforming conditions
Anet have made some poor choices with some condition applying traits, sigils and runes but generally condition application is tied to skills which are subject to the same or similar cooldowns as a power variant. For example, current hybrid/condi Mes gets almost all of its condition application from shatters. Instead of being hit with high upfront damage you are instead ladden with conditions of which you can then mitigate the damage with cleansing. Dodging both power and hybrid/condition shatters is the same.
Also, as condition damage is not attenuated outside of a few traits on specific classes, the stat that counters condition application can be commonly be thought of as vitality. Healing over time can also be thought of as an anti-condition mechanic if it proceeds per second. Then we all know about cleansing and resistance etc.
However, you do touch upon something else that’s certainly quite interesting – specific resistances to certain conditions. It would certainly be cool if this existed as something separate to class choice – as we already have % reduction traits across most classes. It would be risky though, as it’s only recently that condition builds are gaining relevance in sPvP and only really with Necro and Mesmer (sort of). Even these builds are using Mercenary’s as it’s a better choice than a tanky condi amulet.
This is wrong.
Condi shatter gets the condi pressure from all shatters. While power shatter does not. This is why condi shatter is meta and power is not.
You have toughness, because there are three stats that affect direct damage-power, precision and ferocity. Also, direct attacks can crit. I think it makes perfect sense condis go through toughness because they can’t crit, and generally do a lot less damage. You can spec with a rune that takes reduced condi duration, as well as more cleanses. But you shouldn’t be able to cleanse everything, or else condi would be useless. You can also dodge attacks that apply condi like everything else. IMO the system is working as intended.
(edited by Zargoon.9835)
Warrior again, if I go defense, I give up 30% or more damage, and then I get to pick between Dogged march (which doesn’t give move speed) or shield master, which is pretty key to improving survivability.
Any other brain busting questions? Have you ever played any other class?
You basically need to take defense for adrenal health and either cleansing ire or rousing resilience. Dead people don’t deal damage. I’m not a master warrior (or master any class!) , but this is what I run on mine. Basically, you use rifle for damage until you are attacked and then switch to mace/shield. It seems to work for the most part.
You could switch rousing to cleansing ire and swap signet of stamina for a CC ability like kick. Warrior has lots of regen and CC. IMO, it makes more sense to build around your strengths instead of building for straight damage. I don’t main a warrior. So, hopefully a full-time warrior pro can give you better input.
EDIT: Now you have me thinking that I should swap the rifle for hammer and start playing my warrior. LOL!
(edited by angora.4768)
Sorry doesn’t work, too many classes have ways to deal with rifle. The pros will line of sight you force either you stay where u are doing nothing or you go in and get rekt. Reapers 2 ability literally destroys all projectiles and is a low CD, engineers reflect all day or is stealthed, aura eles gives reflects to everyone.
Win only when the entire team of enemy’s abilities is on CD to do some damage and hopefully pick someone off. Warriors cannot carry at all and have no sustain and cannot bunk whatsoever. It’s always been kill or be killed.
Only thing you got to blame is how easy protection buff boon is to apply whereas pre-HoT protection boons weren’t as easily accessible and weren’t just on permanently, so power builds stood a chance.
You have toughness, because there are three stats that affect direct damage-power, precision and ferocity. Also, direct attacks can crit. I think it makes perfect sense condis go through toughness because they can’t crit, and generally do a lot less damage. You can spec for more vitality if you want to survive better against condi, as well as more cleanses. But you shouldn’t be able to cleanse everything, or else condi would be useless. You can also dodge attacks that apply condi like everything else. IMO the system is working as intended.
I don’t think you know what you are saying.
Warrior again, if I go defense, I give up 30% or more damage, and then I get to pick between Dogged march (which doesn’t give move speed) or shield master, which is pretty key to improving survivability.
Any other brain busting questions? Have you ever played any other class?
You basically need to take defense for adrenal health and either cleansing ire or rousing resilience. Dead people don’t deal damage. I’m not a master warrior (or master any class!) , but this is what I run on mine. Basically, you use rifle for damage until you are attacked and then switch to mace/shield. It seems to work for the most part.
You could switch rousing to cleansing ire and swap signet of stamina for a CC ability like kick. Warrior has lots of regen and CC. IMO, it makes more sense to build around your strengths instead of building for straight damage. I don’t main a warrior. So, hopefully a full-time warrior pro can give you better input.
EDIT: Now you have me thinking that I should swap the rifle for hammer and start playing my warrior. LOL!
Won’t work for melee power warrior against a necro or mesmer of equal Skill.
The only viable condi classes in PVP are Necro first and Mesmer a distant second. If any more condi-hate gets thrown in the game then Anet might as well patch out condition damage altogether.
Do you even play PvP? Necro and mesmer are both insanely strong right now.
After 3 years.. when will you learn. When will you learn..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4
The only viable condi classes in PVP are Necro first and Mesmer a distant second. If any more condi-hate gets thrown in the game then Anet might as well patch out condition damage altogether.
Do you even play PvP? Necro and mesmer are both insanely strong right now.
That’s my point. Currently where are the condi rangers/engies/guards/thieves/etc? It doesn’t take much to completely shut out condition builds, so we only see the ridiculous Necros/Mesmers.
Remember when shoutbow Warriors were a thing? Remember anyone running anything condi in that meta? If Anet throws in more condi mitigation then we’ll be seeing zero use in the condi amulets again, when the smart thing is to just tone down Necros/Mesmers a little and bring up the other classes a little.
/facepalm at all of the “vitality counters condi” posts
Vitality is a simply raw TTK increase against all damage sources. It has nothing specific to condis.
The only practical benefit of vitality is that it grants a larger margin of error when dealing with burst/spike damage (from both power and condi)
@OP we have a stat for condis, it’s the reduced % duration stat that some runes and traits carry.
The reason there isn’t an anti-condition stat is because condition cleansing takes that role. Furthermore condition damage is balanced around the lack of a mitigation stat. If there was one added then condition damage would have to be increased. This would just make things worse for anyone not running the stat.
P.S. About the mindless condition spam, power revenant impossible odds → AA spam says hi.
The same argument can be made towards power/ toughness. If you can block a melee attack whats the point of having toughness?
condi can be blocked too
everything that mitigates power damage also applies to condi damage, except armor and protection
and ditto for condi except it’s cleanses and resistance
It is still only 2 classes out of 9. And have you tried condi engie, or burn guard or similar? They are not viable for good reasons, just like power shatter. It has nothing to do with condis being superior in general. And power scrapper and power rev are super hard to play i guess?
Btw i really doubt a bad condi memser can kill a top player (maybe with moa, but that’s a different story). Even i can deal with most of them, and i’m far away from being top tier. Just because you call something a “fact” doesn’t make it a fact.
A baddie chronophantasma can defeat a long time player like say Blackjack just by spamming keys. That is a fact.
Not true.
It’s the same with how stupidly powerful the DH is. A bad DH can nuke out a good thief or deny the capture point for long enough just randomly pressing keys.
No, a bad DH can take out a bad thief. A good thief can take out a bad DH.
Condi needs counter play and the balance team needs to get their kitten together.
It already has counter play. If you can’t use it that’s your problem not Anet’s.
I don’t get how dh has a place in this discussion. It is a power build, right?
And you still ignore the fact (!) that most condi builds suck as much as most power builds.
Says stop looking at pvp in terms of 1v1. Talks about thief vs guard lol. Why would a thief fight a guard? Its 4v5 for the rest of the map. Go decap kitten.
I dont know if you are trolling or just mental.
Actually there’s only few classes that can play as a condi damage class.
Necro(Reaper) have to play condi just why if use only the direct damage inflict half of the damage (in spvp), but still if play only Condition damage. That’s the reason why necros don’t use Rabid (that will grant them to proc different traits and sigils) but chose to play mercenary/carrion instead, why they Need the direct damage to reach they’re full damage.
Then there’s some Revenants and some Mesmers, but the direct damage is frequently better, just why everyone use in it’s build all the condi clean skill that he can, just why the hate and the fear of condition damage is really high.
Actually the best damage is Direct Damage, nothing to say.
There’s then a large amount of NoDamage conditions that can be spammed by different classes and some secondary-effect condition spammed by other classes.
There’s a large amount of CC conditions in the game and debilitating ones.
Then if you fight a full team of reapers is for shure that you will find a large amount of condition damage, but out of that there’s really few classes that can use condition damage properly.
And if someone burst you down 90% isn’t why he’s condition damage but why he also use a huge direct damage or there’s other enemies that attack you at the same time with direct damage.
Only one thing. You think other classes then Necro or Mesmer dont play condi because they suck at it? Thats not true. Other classes cant play Condi because they apply it and a necro just give it back and they die. They dont have to focus the necro, he will get it threw his signet and then give it back. A condi warrior is much better in applying conditions then a necro in a much shorter time. but then he dies to a random necro to often. the viable condi classes have a great condi celanse. thats why they are viable. not the fact that they can apply condis better then other.
Melee attacks have blocks, condis dont. They hit through everything. Especially necro with its silly traited marks. They should erase this trait as it cancels 99% of the power based builds defense, which are active blocking.
Most condi attacks are blockable just like power attacks (and can be dodged, blinded, interrupted, …). Some power attacks are unblockable like some condi attacks. It depends on the specific skills, not whether it is condi or power.
Look at the condi mesmer. It spreads cancer through shattering. Let’s assume you have a kittening valid point in saying that condi removal (which doesnt cleanse you completely mind you and most condi cleanses are tied in to stun breakers) is the bane to condition damage. Let’s kittening assume that.
Do you know how fast a mesmer can re-shatter your stupid face? In less than 10 seconds. That’s how fast reapplication works. Most decent condi cleanses are on 30 second cooldown.
Power mesmer can deal tons of dmg too with shatters, so what’s the difference? If you tank shatters every few seconds you would get destroyed by power mesmer too …
Condi builds are super yawn fests and are clearly better than power builds. That’s only because power users tend to be better players than condiscubs. And ANet’s silly pvp balance team decided they should give the upper hand to condi builds rather than, you know, finding a balance.
kitten logic.
Then why are there only 2 out of 9 classes with a meta condi build? Logic?
Have you tried playing power shatter lately?
And yes only 2 out of 9 classes are decent at condi. Do you know why? Because ANet’s balance team is full of kitten. Those 2 are not only decent, they are better than anything else in term of player skill required. They are braindead. A baddie chronophantasma can defeat a long time player like say Blackjack just by spamming keys. That is a fact.
It’s the same with how stupidly powerful the DH is. A bad DH can nuke out a good thief or deny the capture point for long enough just randomly pressing keys.
Condi needs counter play and the balance team needs to get their kitten together.
On the top of my head, everyone has a viable condi build. Condi warrior can kitten a condi necro, while power warrior can’t, you know why?? This thread, the game has 0 anti condi stats. I know someone people mentioned condi clears but gl clearing condi every 45 sec on your warrior though.
“Actually the best damage is Direct Damage, nothing to say.”
In every death log I open, I’m only dying because of chill (20/25k) then some bleed and some poison. When I say “every death log” I mean it.
Actually there’s only few classes that can play as a condi damage class..
That’s why 90% of the teams are condi classes?
I haven’t had a match for days without at least 3 people are condi necros, mesmer or any other build with heavy conditions.
Why is that the case?
Because it’s stupidly easy to apply conditions on random foes around you. It’s easy, it’s doesn’t need much skill and it’s mostly aoe. That’s just not good gameplay (same with guardian traps and engineer gyros).
Either this game needs a really good counter to condition pressure – vitality does not help – or conditions got to be nerfed to a point that they are either single target (you can only apply a condition to 1 target or it falls off, when you target someone new) or deal less damage
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