Guild Wars 2

I see a number of calls for 20v20 or classic 8v8

The reason this wont work in gw2:

Rallying on stomp turns large battles into stupid cluster kittens

a good even fight, both teams lose 3 people to downed state in the open, and then one team gets a stomp

now its 20v17+2, and the 17+2 have a secondary objective (get rezs off) to deal with. the thing just snowballs.

This game really isnt fun in fights sized more than 3v3, and 2v2 usually feels better.

blame kittenty development, like i do.

Good point…
I think someone suggested rezzing only the ONE closest person on stomp – which, I feel, makes a lot of sense.
Perhaps then you could imagine traiting for stomp-rezzing 1+1 person for those who want to spec this way – it could replace the crappy downed traits and would be a “decent choice” for roamers/guardians.

I don’t really get the logic behind massive rallies in PvP or WvW (PvE maybe!).

Is it capped at 5 people or is there no cap at all?

I agree with flamfloz. One for one!. One stomp rezzing 3-5 people makes no sense at all.

Really, I would almost prefer it if stomps gave no rally at all (except maybe if the downed player was the person to get last hit finishing another down player—for 1v1 situations).

I agree that small fights are more exciting than large fights, but I don’t think it’s because of design flaws. The removal of the trinity means that there are no priority targets like there would be in your standard MMO.

Let’s think about it: in a 10v10 with your standard tank/healer/dps trinity, you’ve got maybe 3 heals, 4 tanks, 3 dps on each team. The dps tries to focus the healers while the tanks cc the enemy dps. There are 20 people in the game, but 95% of the fighting is focused around about 4-5 players, while the rest of them mainly either spam heals or soak damage. In a 20v20, there are maybe 10 players total dealing or trying to avoid damage.

yet another reason why downed state and rally were the worst ideas ever concocted for PVP.

but at least they can sell finishers in the cash store right?

ryston.7640:

I see a number of calls for 20v20 or classic 8v8

The reason this wont work in gw2:

Rallying on stomp turns large battles into stupid cluster kittens

a good even fight, both teams lose 3 people to downed state in the open, and then one team gets a stomp

now its 20v17+2, and the 17+2 have a secondary objective (get rezs off) to deal with. the thing just snowballs.

This game really isnt fun in fights sized more than 3v3, and 2v2 usually feels better.

blame kittenty development, like i do.

You could look at it from a different perspective; the risk of going down and rallying the enemies is so high, that it increases the skill floor of all the players on the team no matter what class they play.

Hey I enjoy me some holy trinity games, but im also not one to opppose innovation. When anet said they were changing things I said okay, cool.

Lots of competitive games lack recovery, counterstrike was (I think) the origional team esport. (someone argue unreal, point would still stand). The trinity isnt what makes the game fun.

But something does have to make the game fun. In GW it was the teamwork and the ‘deck building’. In FPS games it was the skill and the intuition.

In GW2… there’s less skill, because no crosshair or listening for footsteps etc.

No deck building

‘Team work’ exists but not like it did. Pulling off a kill in gw meant multiple people did the right thing at the right time despite enemy efforts to disrupt them. In Guildwars 2 it means you used stability? woo. Maybe someone immobilized for you, yea, thats cool.

Anyone else remember what it took to drop someone in gw1?

Attrition teams were a somewhat unpopular strat, where you just wear the enemy team to death. Usually you had some sort of burst. Sometimes this was a simple spike, other times it was selective adrenaline dumps with precision interupts or cc.

anyway i digress. stomping is not a substitute for the sort of teamplay we had in gw1. Its a highly telegraphed gimmic designed to make a spectatable game, rather than a fun game. Which is sort of the problem, esports need to be fun else nobody cares about them.

Also, can you actually imagine a team trying to res a downed teammate in 20v20? They would all go down within 2 seconds because of the extreme aoe.

8v8 could work.. but only if the team has to split up.

So what happens in WvW?

1 down 1 up system would be nice.

Btw, im wondering if anyone found a way to exploit the res system yet in WvW?

ya wvwvw is just a cluster kitten that gets won by zergs and seiges.

very occasionally you get some beed 4v4 action, but then someone involved gets renforced

1000 vs 1000 would be awesome.

More than 5v5 won’t work if everyone is supposed to just zerg/mosh pit it up like “GvG”.

But on a bigger map that splits people up it would be fine, a map like Arathi Basin would be fun.

Honestly, it could work if you were matched in “squads” during the 20v20. For example, you’re given 4 parties of 5 players who can see each other’s health, and know where they are on the map.

Throw in multiple objectives, and spacing between the objectives, it would be more of a loss to send 10+ people to one objective and leave the others vulnerable. Maybe even add in some rear cannons or trebuchets that can knock down zergs fairly quickly to discourage large groups of people traveling together.

Honestly, having a structured keep/castle siege would bring loads of people into the SPvP group. It’s fun in WvW, why not add in a keep siege that rotates teams between defending and attacking?

@Caine.8204

like this?
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fort_Aspenwood

You can do stuff with more than 5v5 in a competitive game. Usually, when you have over a certain number of people, you have to make sure that they are doing something relatively passive, and that doesn’t have a major impact on the match. In sports, there is an object (i.e. ball) that most of the spectator audience chooses to focus on, even though many important things happen away from it. When someone has the ball, it’s only realistically going to end up in a limited number of places and with a few people specifically defending near it. The designers of a sport don’t just say “let’s get rid of everything that isn’t in the primary field of view”, because both extraneous players and extraneous environment size have roles that can become dynamic at different points in a contest.

In hockey or soccer, they have a goalie who basically hangs back and waits for something to happen around him. When someone gets within range of scoring, one team’s goalie is quickly thrust into being one of the central characters in the entire competition.

In football, you have offensive and defensive line. Football is balanced for these two to be locked into a stalemate for a few seconds. It becomes evident to the viewer whenever someone has broken the stalemate because they end up influencing or stopping the play before it’s allowed to develop. The front lines in football play a major role in making the other players look exciting at their roles.

Sports also allow for substitution of specialists to come in at various parts in the game. Penalty kicks and field goals, specifically. Other things like track & field and gymnastics are a series of free-for-all events where most of the team is competiting in an entirely different activity. And people can choose which favorite parts they want to watch.

But as for successful video games, a game like a MOBA is actually balanced around 1-3 man groups, and the full team fight is usually completely imbalanced so that one side can blow up the other. But it’s a huge map where grouping together carries it’s own consequence. During the downtime where fights aren’t happening, everyone is basically farming or planning. There is so much AI in MOBAS (creeps, minions, turrets) that you have to recognize that there’s way more than just a 5v5 going on. The AI actually provides an impediment to players being able to do what they plan on doing, because you get body blocked or your attack selection hugs his turret.

And yes, I am playing on the wording of your title “more than 5v5 doesn’t work”. Everything that does work is ‘more than just a 5v5’ (clarifying that this is about team games).

ryston.7640:

I see a number of calls for 20v20 or classic 8v8

The reason this wont work in gw2:

Rallying on stomp turns large battles into stupid cluster kittens

a good even fight, both teams lose 3 people to downed state in the open, and then one team gets a stomp

now its 20v17+2, and the 17+2 have a secondary objective (get rezs off) to deal with. the thing just snowballs.

This game really isnt fun in fights sized more than 3v3, and 2v2 usually feels better.

blame kittenty development, like i do.

It really depends on the game format. It would work fine for a Death Match. With the cap point format there would need to be maps close to the size of the BL’s w/o way points so positioning would actually matter.

Anet has made it clear they’re not going to support the large scale GvG crowd anyway so this whole topic is somewhat moot.

MIrra.3604:

You could look at it from a different perspective; the risk of going down and rallying the enemies is so high, that it increases the skill floor of all the players on the team no matter what class they play.

I’d actually say it decreases the skill floor. There should be a more interesting mechanic than auto ressing off of dead things. With your train of logic the skill floor would be just as high if there was no downed state, which would also make balancing easier.

You never played 10v10 or 15v15 you have no idea.

The skill floor goes up in deathmatch vs other good deathmatch teams always has always will. Conquest is less about playing your class well as playing gimmicks that conquest promotes, aka bunkers that add nothing to a group or pure solo artist selfish builds.

Working as a team in actual fights always has a greater skill cap then what you see in conquest mode.

Conquest mode leader board players are kind of really bad when it comes to playing a class well. Again I speak from the a position of a GvGer and a top 100 player. GvGers are better players deathmatch is always better as its more about skill and teamwork with no room for error.

Xom.9264:

Conquest is less about playing your class well as playing gimmicks that conquest promotes, aka bunkers that add nothing to a group or pure solo artist selfish builds.

You could say similar things about any game mode. Conquest encourages team splits, something that team deathmatch can’t do. There’s a huge layer of strategy by itself. It also rewards players who are good at 1v1/1v2. It means there is a use for in-combat and out-of-combat mobility, which means that theorycrafters must weigh their choices carefully.

Every game mode has its own riddles to solve. Sure, conquest lacks the feeling of eight hammer warriors colliding while guardians pass out stability, and necros and maybe an ele throwing down AoE—but it has a lot of other things.

OIIIIIO.7825:

@Caine.8204

like this?
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fort_Aspenwood

Exactly. I had a blast doing that in GW1, and on GW2 so many more elements could be added (like jumping) that would make it even more so.