Guild Wars 2

I had the highest hopes for this game going in to release because of their history with GW1. I figured GW1 was (mostly) a PvP player base towards the end, and since it’s got a great pricing method, I thought I would have a new MMO home. Boy was I wrong…

I pleaded on the forums here reguarly for the first months of the game, when dev communication was actually pretty good. I wasn’t alone obviously, the huge majority of the playerbase was unhappy and taht was obvious by the decline in players week by week.

Finally after a few months one of the devs told us in the “Big PvP patch around April” (LAST year) they were FINALLY going to look in to improving PvP with new game modes, etc!

So I took an extended break to see how things happened… and sadly things BARELY changed in this whole time.

And it seems the tone has not changed. People are still begging for the same things they were a year and a half ago, and still getting the same excuses… (and yes I call them excuses, because if they were only “reasons” or “explanations” that would imply they would have gathered evidence and found a solution to work towards by now).
Now the topics going on to “how do we add objectives to the modes to make them work” and “how do we add progression through the game modes”….

Brings me to the topic here… Why doesn’t GW2 base their PvP off their successful systems they had in GW1??

There was many different modes, some of which had special objectives (and some of which that did not – ALL of them were fun regardless of this!).
There was a clear progression! Not just with moving from random arenas>competitive>HoH>GvG, but also a clear progression of unlocks/gear/skills/etc, but done in a way that NEVER felt like you were at a disadvatange.

Also the reasons given to us of imbalance and requiring healers… but this really wasn’t that big of an issue in GW1 either. In random arenas, people tend to spec completely different cahracters that are more viable for multiple roles and soloing. And that did not stop players from promoting out of random in to competitive (with theier random team) and getting more than a dozen consecutive wins! If you are in any other premade team mode, you can obvious add a variety of healers, which in this game is highly beneficial as well.

And it seems that ANet is blinded by the fact that they want to succeed as an eSport nowdays… it’s so easy to forget that GW1 found some success at this as well, when the game was not even designed for it!

You do realize, the top eSport games were NOT initially designed as an eSport… but evolved in to one over time! You need to build from the bottom up, a strong foundation and then work on making it an eSport, not the other way around. DoTA, LoL, SC – they were not worrying about what viewers would think when watching a game! So why are you worried about that when the player portion of the game is being neglected for the viewers? Viewers aren’t going to care much unless the players & gameplay could match the viewership features!

To the developers: GW1 succeeded at EVERYTHING you wanted out of GW2… WHY don’t you take advantage of this solution you have had in front of you all along??? This game is supposed to be “GUILD WARS” 2! A game with possibly the best PvP system in an MMO… and GW2… Being honest here I would say it’s one of the bottom 50% worst PvP implementations in an MMO (at least the structured portion, WvW isnt as bad).
The more we stray from the essence of the first game, the more it feels like a betrayal to the customers that have been fans of the series.
..
I beg you (still, after 2 years)… Please learn from these mistakes and go back to your games own path of success.

I have no problem if you add new features on top of it, but AT LEAST give us the modes/features we had in GW1. Until then GW2 is going to feel like upgraded graphics/combat mechanics but downgraded everything else…

Please… Stop wasting all this potential.

(Edit: Case and point:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I agree. We’ve done some of the core stuff we wanted to nail w/ the conquest format, so now we’ll start getting into different secondaries that provide new types of gameplay.

^ Over a year ago… Still hasn’t happened, and this “new PvP format” just simply is not working…

Which brings me back to topic… Why don’t we switch back to what we KNOW works, what we KNOW is successful from GW1… and just add all these new ideas and features on top of that hugely successful framework??? That will bring players, which can eventually lead to eSports, but we need the actual players first! Why make a game for spectators if noone is watching…?)

I second this, we really need more game modes in pvp…

When it’s ready.

tico.9814:

When it’s ready.

I’m assuming that is sarcasm… but incase it’s not….

You do know 2 years is the entire development cycle of many games out there?

well, maybe those kickstarter sidescrolling point and click adventures.

tanztante.6532:

well, maybe those kickstarter sidescrolling point and click adventures.

Really? Want a few examples of AAA games with 2 year development cycles?

All the Uncharted games.

Demon Souls/Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2

Bioshock 2

Both of Mass Effect’s sequels.

That’s not counting the countless FPS games, and yearly series that reguarly come out.

And now that I think of it, why don’t you look at the development of Guild Wars 1 and it’s expansions as an example…?

Not to mention the fact that the structured PvP portion of this game is just a fraction of the size of a typical game, and all the groundwork is in place, making the work on this aspect of the game more minimal than a sequel.

This isn’t really the point though…. Point is that it’s been 2 years and PvP has had very minimal changes during that time, compared to what was promised, considering it’s been 1.5 years since they said we would be getting new modes…

Case and point:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I agree. We’ve done some of the core stuff we wanted to nail w/ the conquest format, so now we’ll start getting into different secondaries that provide new types of gameplay.

^ Over a year ago… Still hasn’t happened, and this “new PvP format” just simply is not working…

Which brings me back to topic… Why don’t we switch back to what we KNOW works, what we KNOW is successful from GW1… and just add all these new ideas and features on top of that hugely successful framework?

(Edit: Added that to topic)

ZenoSpyridon.1396:

Case and point:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I agree. We’ve done some of the core stuff we wanted to nail w/ the conquest format, so now we’ll start getting into different secondaries that provide new types of gameplay.

^ Over a year ago… Still hasn’t happened, and this “new PvP format” just simply is not working…

Which brings me back to topic… Why don’t we switch back to what we KNOW works, what we KNOW is successful from GW1… and just add all these new ideas and features on top of that hugely successful framework?

(Edit: Added that to topic)

I think he was talking about skyhammer at that moment. Anyways It still boggles my head how there is no GvG ( Guild vs guild ) in GUILD wars 2 and if there’s never gonna be GvG, change the name of the game cuz it just confusing and deceptive to the buyers

Exile.8160:

ZenoSpyridon.1396:

Case and point:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I agree. We’ve done some of the core stuff we wanted to nail w/ the conquest format, so now we’ll start getting into different secondaries that provide new types of gameplay.

^ Over a year ago… Still hasn’t happened, and this “new PvP format” just simply is not working…

Which brings me back to topic… Why don’t we switch back to what we KNOW works, what we KNOW is successful from GW1… and just add all these new ideas and features on top of that hugely successful framework?

(Edit: Added that to topic)

I think he was talking about skyhammer at that moment. Anyways It still boggles my head how there is no GvG ( Guild vs guild ) in GUILD wars 2 and if there’s never gonna be GvG, change the name of the game cuz it just confusing and deceptive to the buyers

It is only confusing if you never research a product before buying it. Given it takes like 2 minutes to find whatever you want, it seems like a better idea for everybody to research it yourself, which you should be doing as a smart and functional human consumer. And you should be doing it anyways to see if the game has any major issues.

In any case, guild wars 2 needs more game modes and as long as GvG isn’t exclusive to only guilds then why not. I don’t want to have to put up with joining a guild just to play a game mode.

I’d wager that the problem with importing PvP concepts and game modes from GW1 is that the game mechanics are very different. People ask for GvG, as it was in GW1, like once a month and the reality is that GvG would be very, very different in GW2. This game is only a “Guild Wars” installment in theme and title only.

They have to come up with new arenas that work within the foundation they currently have, not what they had in GW1… so perhaps that’s just a steep challenge and they’re undecided on it. I’m sure some additions are coming, sooner or later.

mooty.4560:

I’d wager that the problem with importing PvP concepts and game modes from GW1 is that the game mechanics are very different. People ask for GvG, as it was in GW1, like once a month and the reality is that GvG would be very, very different in GW2. This game is only a “Guild Wars” installment in theme and title only.

They have to come up with new arenas that work within the foundation they currently have, not what they had in GW1… so perhaps that’s just a steep challenge and they’re undecided on it. I’m sure some additions are coming, sooner or later.

Its been 2 years, they can’t make a map in 2 years?

Exile.8160:

mooty.4560:

I’d wager that the problem with importing PvP concepts and game modes from GW1 is that the game mechanics are very different. People ask for GvG, as it was in GW1, like once a month and the reality is that GvG would be very, very different in GW2. This game is only a “Guild Wars” installment in theme and title only.

They have to come up with new arenas that work within the foundation they currently have, not what they had in GW1… so perhaps that’s just a steep challenge and they’re undecided on it. I’m sure some additions are coming, sooner or later.

Its been 2 years, they can’t make a map in 2 years?

Well they did make maps and a lot of player complained about it. And considering they had to redesign a lot of the PvP mechanics like rewards, added custom, solo Q, etc new maps. Also your short-sighted argument fails once you realize that alot of maps are made but not all of them are successful so they have to be redesigned or dropped all of which takes a lot of time.

ZenoSpyridon.1396:

Really? Want a few examples of AAA games with 2 year development cycles?

All the Uncharted games.

Demon Souls/Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2

Bioshock 2

Both of Mass Effect’s sequels.

That’s not counting the countless FPS games, and yearly series that reguarly come out.

And now that I think of it, why don’t you look at the development of Guild Wars 1 and it’s expansions as an example…?

Not to mention the fact that the structured PvP portion of this game is just a fraction of the size of a typical game, and all the groundwork is in place, making the work on this aspect of the game more minimal than a sequel.

This isn’t really the point though…. Point is that it’s been 2 years and PvP has had very minimal changes during that time, compared to what was promised, considering it’s been 1.5 years since they said we would be getting new modes…

Just to point out, none of the games you listed are MMOs, which adds a wrinkle to the development, since it adds complexity especially when it comes to PvP.

mooty.4560:

I’d wager that the problem with importing PvP concepts and game modes from GW1 is that the game mechanics are very different. People ask for GvG, as it was in GW1, like once a month and the reality is that GvG would be very, very different in GW2. This game is only a “Guild Wars” installment in theme and title only.

They have to come up with new arenas that work within the foundation they currently have, not what they had in GW1… so perhaps that’s just a steep challenge and they’re undecided on it. I’m sure some additions are coming, sooner or later.

This. They wouldn’t be alike, especially since things like “Down-state enemy death resurrects all downed allies” exist (which ruined TDM courtyard for me).

The things you enjoyed about GW1 are mostly going to stay back in GW1 even if they bring the modes back.

(But kitten I agree it would be nice to have some kittening options I’m tired of the same 6 maps)

Helly.2597:

ZenoSpyridon.1396:

Really? Want a few examples of AAA games with 2 year development cycles?

All the Uncharted games.

Demon Souls/Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2

Bioshock 2

Both of Mass Effect’s sequels.

That’s not counting the countless FPS games, and yearly series that reguarly come out.

And now that I think of it, why don’t you look at the development of Guild Wars 1 and it’s expansions as an example…?

Not to mention the fact that the structured PvP portion of this game is just a fraction of the size of a typical game, and all the groundwork is in place, making the work on this aspect of the game more minimal than a sequel.

This isn’t really the point though…. Point is that it’s been 2 years and PvP has had very minimal changes during that time, compared to what was promised, considering it’s been 1.5 years since they said we would be getting new modes…

Just to point out, none of the games you listed are MMOs, which adds a wrinkle to the development, since it adds complexity especially when it comes to PvP.

Structured PvP is not designed as an MMO. It’s a small zone with a low population cap.

What you say would be true if it was even made anything like an outdoor zone, but it’s not. It’s a small instanced server similar to any moba or dungeon crawler game. Except those actually have MUCH higher data transfer due to all the minions etc in the game.

So actually PvP in this should be easier to implement than any outdoor dungeon in the game, and easier than a moba…

Regardless, even the outdoor/instanced/PvP areas…. look at how many more of those they added in the time frame since the game came out. Then compare that to PvP…

mooty.4560:

I’d wager that the problem with importing PvP concepts and game modes from GW1 is that the game mechanics are very different. People ask for GvG, as it was in GW1, like once a month and the reality is that GvG would be very, very different in GW2. This game is only a “Guild Wars” installment in theme and title only.

They have to come up with new arenas that work within the foundation they currently have, not what they had in GW1… so perhaps that’s just a steep challenge and they’re undecided on it. I’m sure some additions are coming, sooner or later.

Mechanics being different does not mean alternative modes don’t work. Best game that is an example of this is Smite. Log on to there and look at how many modes they have! And aside from maybe 1-2, they all have a decent player base.

That Smite example shows exactly how silly they are for worrying about “fragmenting the player base”. The player base will play what is fun, and many people just dont find conquest fun. Those that do will keep playing, but those that dont will play the other modes, and the OVERALL population will grow.

Ironically, in their quest to avoid fragmenting their player base, all they are achieving is fragmenting it even more themselves.

Everything that works in Smite would work here as well (except maybe aram). Same as everything that works in GW1 would work here as well, actually even better due to healers not being as strong. For what reason would any of the modes in GW1 “not work” here because of the mechanics? Areanas to the death would work, flag mechanics would work, GvG would work, etc. It would open up whole new realms for the skill system, because the skill sys has so much potential but it’s wasted in conquest…

The only mention of anything here that might “ruin” it is “downed stance”… and if downed stance is so negative for the game then that is a balance problem with downed stance and not the game modes. Can you really say it’s good game design if a feature is making no other options other than conquest viable?

silvermember.8941:

Well they did make maps and a lot of player complained about it. And considering they had to redesign a lot of the PvP mechanics like rewards, added custom, solo Q, etc new maps. Also your short-sighted argument fails once you realize that alot of maps are made but not all of them are successful so they have to be redesigned or dropped all of which takes a lot of time.

Maybe if they actually did what works (and they have proven works in the past), instead of trying to come up with new ideas that will somehow trigger an eSport explosion to revitalize the game, people would stop complaining. Instead of sticking with a single game mode that was not well received for years, and removing everything “Guild Wars” from the sequel…

And designing a map for PvP here is no harder than any other PvP game, Moba, FPS, etc… It’s actually more complicated in those forms of games due to more varied mechanics and different types of characters.

silvermember.8941:

Exile.8160:

mooty.4560:

I’d wager that the problem with importing PvP concepts and game modes from GW1 is that the game mechanics are very different. People ask for GvG, as it was in GW1, like once a month and the reality is that GvG would be very, very different in GW2. This game is only a “Guild Wars” installment in theme and title only.

They have to come up with new arenas that work within the foundation they currently have, not what they had in GW1… so perhaps that’s just a steep challenge and they’re undecided on it. I’m sure some additions are coming, sooner or later.

Its been 2 years, they can’t make a map in 2 years?

Well they did make maps and a lot of player complained about it. And considering they had to redesign a lot of the PvP mechanics like rewards, added custom, solo Q, etc new maps. Also your short-sighted argument fails once you realize that alot of maps are made but not all of them are successful so they have to be redesigned or dropped all of which takes a lot of time.

Its 2 years after the release so while they were making it they could have implemented GvG into their scheduled . there most be something wrong cuz I can think of 3 map after the release and those are skyhammer, spirit watch and courtyard those were the successful ones? . couryard too small for anyone to enjoy spritwatch too broken for a few classes and skyhammer don’t get me started about that. Anyways say all you want but GvG has been ask for SINCE release and instead they gave us those maps

Exile.8160:

silvermember.8941:

Exile.8160:

mooty.4560:

I’d wager that the problem with importing PvP concepts and game modes from GW1 is that the game mechanics are very different. People ask for GvG, as it was in GW1, like once a month and the reality is that GvG would be very, very different in GW2. This game is only a “Guild Wars” installment in theme and title only.

They have to come up with new arenas that work within the foundation they currently have, not what they had in GW1… so perhaps that’s just a steep challenge and they’re undecided on it. I’m sure some additions are coming, sooner or later.

Its been 2 years, they can’t make a map in 2 years?

Well they did make maps and a lot of player complained about it. And considering they had to redesign a lot of the PvP mechanics like rewards, added custom, solo Q, etc new maps. Also your short-sighted argument fails once you realize that alot of maps are made but not all of them are successful so they have to be redesigned or dropped all of which takes a lot of time.

Its 2 years after the release so while they were making it they could have implemented GvG into their scheduled . there most be something wrong cuz I can think of 3 map after the release and those are skyhammer, spirit watch and courtyard those were the successful ones? . couryard too small for anyone to enjoy spritwatch too broken for a few classes and skyhammer don’t get me started about that. Anyways say all you want but GvG has been ask for SINCE release and instead they gave us those maps

Might I add….

People were asking for MODES since release… not MAPS.

The frustrating things are how A) This is a shadow of what they achieved years ago in GW1, and The reasons they give us that they do not add modes are counter-productive to actually fixing the PvP in this game.

So there is a problem with game mechanics making this mode a problem? Fix the game mechanics!

Don’t want to fragment the player base? Wouldn’t be a problem if there actually WAS a player base, but they have nothing fun to play!

Not fun to watch as a spectator? That sounds like the game ever since release! Build a fun strong PvP game and then specatators will come! They don’t care about how pretty everything looks if they have no investment in it! As mentioned before most the top tournament games were NOT designed for PvP and mostly look like crap (or did at first).

Downed state causing problems? Put more limitations on it! (If you recall something like this happened early on in GW1 development as well).

Is there really a problem that GW1 hasn’t already solved? Why are we even in this situation?

This game’s PVP will never be taken seriously while it is burdened by this ridiculous downed state.

ZenoSpyridon.1396:

tanztante.6532:

well, maybe those kickstarter sidescrolling point and click adventures.

Really? Want a few examples of AAA games with 2 year development cycles?

All the Uncharted games.

Demon Souls/Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2

Bioshock 2

Both of Mass Effect’s sequels.

That’s not counting the countless FPS games, and yearly series that reguarly come out.

And now that I think of it, why don’t you look at the development of Guild Wars 1 and it’s expansions as an example…?

you are talking about second installments constantly, with a premade engine, premade characters, premade world and probably premade story from day 1 in case of mass effect, etc. the companies responsible for creating those games are either huge or very very very experienced.
also, it’s all single player games, not MMOs, which is something completely different. just one example would be bioware. the kotor series ruled, a lot, and the games were considered some of the best rpgs out there at that time, but when bioware made an mmorpg out of it, it tanked after 6 months and they had to go f2p.

Not to mention the fact that the structured PvP portion of this game is just a fraction of the size of a typical game, and all the groundwork is in place, making the work on this aspect of the game more minimal than a sequel.

This isn’t really the point though…. Point is that it’s been 2 years and PvP has had very minimal changes during that time, compared to what was promised, considering it’s been 1.5 years since they said we would be getting new modes…

i agree with you on this one

Case and point:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I agree. We’ve done some of the core stuff we wanted to nail w/ the conquest format, so now we’ll start getting into different secondaries that provide new types of gameplay.

^ Over a year ago… Still hasn’t happened, and this “new PvP format” just simply is not working…

Which brings me back to topic… Why don’t we switch back to what we KNOW works, what we KNOW is successful from GW1… and just add all these new ideas and features on top of that hugely successful framework?

(Edit: Added that to topic)

and partly with that.

as far as this whole topic goes, i don’t want to blindly defend anet, but i do want to mention, that the pvp team is apparently heavily understaffed OR they’re working on too many different projects at once. simply implementing features from a completely different game could as well destroy the whole thing completely. there are of course features in gw1, that gw2 would benefit from a lot, but the constant crying about gw1 being so much better and so on is very annoying.

it starts with the number of players alone. gw1 was popular, yes. pvp in gw1 was also quite crowded, but there were definitely a lot less people in gw1 as in gw2 pvp/wvw alone. i can remember evenings in HA, when our team encountered the same enemy teams 4+ times in a row. still pvp in gw1 was not considered dead at this time. this never happened to me in gw2 and pvp has gotten a lot more populated since i started playing it about a year ago. back then, we were, for example, matched against car crash twice in a row (we all were pvp rank 20 or so at that time).

then there’s the thing with the automated tournaments, similar to HA. it existed in gw2 in the beginning. nobody played it. absolutely nobody. you queued for 8 mins and up. so they removed it. now everybody is crying that they want it back.

the list is long and i don’t want to go on, but i think you get my point. it is ok to be upset about the speed in which updates and changes happen, but constantly crying about it (and gw1) is not helpful. also, the pvp forum users are a handful, maybe around 50, and we do not represent the majority of pvp players who are either at gw2reddit because they boycott the official forums for whatever reasons, or simply don’t care to debate the game at this level at all.

and another thing:
if i were a person who had never played gw2 before and i were thinking about getting it and looked into the forums, i’d be shocked at how miserable and kittened up this game apparently must be and i would think thrice about buying it, because EVERYTHING IS kittenED UP and the game is not skillbased, it’s only cheesy, it’s getting no attention by the devs, it’s only about the gemstore, it’s only this, that and mainly it’s not kittening gw1. would you buy such a game?

tanztante.6532:

you are talking about second installments constantly
…
it tanked after 6 months and they had to go f2p.

Many of those are 2nd installments, but some that are not. There are actaully many games that are on 2 year spans, those were just some of the more well known/high profile ones these days, so I thought they would be great examples. 2 years-3max is the average for new games these days.

As mentioned, sPvP’s more akin to Moba style game. We’re not talking about creating a new game in 2 years, just using their existing features in new ways.

The netcode isn’t very resource intensive and (the majority of) attacks use simple collision areas/radius for the attacks. Furthermore, we’re talking about an instanced PvP zone, so no work has to be done on the netcode at all, especially becuase it’s optimized for scaling up to WvW standards.

Not all the games I mention were single player. DS has a unique multiplayer system that would take more time than traditional systems to implement, especially with how people “phase” in to each others zones, the signs, etc. Uncharted (after the first) spent a lot of time on multiplayer development as well.

About SWToR… That game tanked for reasons other than MMO’s being hard to work on… their endgame was sorely unfinished. My whole guild came to SWToR and actually loved the game… until max level. Then it had little content, unfinished content, broken raids, a broken PvP planet, and overall nothing to do.
I will say that (most) the teams listed are large or experienced, but ANet (should) be too! They released GW1 which was a huge success, and should have all the know-how on how to create an MMO. Which is the point of my complaints – they knew how to make good PvP from GW1 but abandoned that knowledge in favor of completely new systems that were a HUGE downgrade, and have failed hardcore for the last 2 years.

as far as this whole topic goes, i don’t want to blindly defend anet, but i do want to mention, that the pvp team is apparently heavily understaffed
…
the list is long and i don’t want to go on, but i think you get my point. it is ok to be upset about the speed in which updates and changes happen, but constantly crying about it (and gw1) is not helpful.

Are you really surprised that people are upset the sequel to GW isn’t like GW? You think any other game – example: DoTA fans wouldnt be kittened if the sequel only had conquest maps and removed half the features?

GW1 to GW2 population comparisons depend on how long in to the game. Later in the life cycle you are correct, but the first 2 years of GW1 blew this game away population-wise in PvP (not including WvW). Queues used to take seconds, everything from RA to high end PvP.

Automated tournaments in GW2 at release is a bad example. It had so many problems and that’s why noone played. No incentive, no progression, long queues, premades vs pugs, and FEES to get in?… completely half kittened. Even Random Arena (lowest form of GW1 PvP) had incentive, no premades vs pugs, and maps w/ multiple modes! Once again if they stuck with what worked, instead of trying to make something new work (and implement it half kittened) we’d be better off.

I’m not sure what you mean about constantly crying about it, I wait about 6 months in between posting topics here. Complaining about it SHOULD help if they were listening to feedback. The biggest feedback since release of the game has been for the things I’m complaining about and they have done nothing but force feed the same mode instead of falling back on what worked for them.

Majority of PvP players have already quit because they are tired of dealing with this. GW had a huge amount of fans and known players, what % actually stuck with the game? That should be a lesson to everyone involved. But instead of learning from that, they have stuck to failures and not delivered on their promises.

tanztante.6532:

would you buy such a game?

You want an honest answer to that?

If I knew EXACTLY how the game was right now, I would not buy it. I’m not a PvE player, I only bought the game for the PvP, and the promises of the development in to a true successor to GW1 PvP. That’s exactly why I check in every 6 months to see if things have changed at all.

The PvP is a straight up downgrade in this “sequel”. They lied before release. They lied when they answered my questions about PvP at their panel in ComicCon in 2010-2011 (forgot which year). They have lied ever since release about what they are adding.

And most of all, they have focused on all the wrong areas of the game, attempting to make it “an eSport” “fun to watch” and “competitive”… trying to build a house from the top down… instead of building a strong foundation from the bottom up. They have a foundation from the game their named after… How about building a “fun game” first????