Guild Wars 2

What is this sick idea everyone has that if you die to condis then that class is either overpowered or ridiculous or aids or tumors or stds or did nothing or skill less? I’ve literally heard all of these and more. No matter what class it is, if it’s condi and it killed you it’s “aids”.

Then there’s other ignorant ideas that go around such as, “how am I suppose to cleanse all of these condis?” Or, “why can’t my class cleanse everything like others?” Can you or can you not “cleanse” all direct damage you take?

People forget there are two kinds of damage in this game. Just because one is much less popular than the other doesn’t mean it’s any less fair and viable.

PS. I would like nothing more than to have condis be as popular as direct damage but with things like diamond skin, necro’s ridiculous transfer rates, structures taking no condi damage, and people screaming “aids”, it’s never going to happen.

¯\(?)/¯

scrubs? tbh, can’t say I’ve ever understood it either. damage is damage, idk why anyone thinks they should just be able to ignore it.

Cause the condi system in this game sucks. Its overly simplified and condis can just be flushed away like they never happens every few seconds because the only time you die to condi you either A: kittened up and its your fault or B: you used all your cleanse moments before and couldn’t do anything about it. Condi is always an insta win or loss theres very rarely a “close” fight with condi.

If condi cleanse was split between impairing effects and damage effects into two systems, and very minimal cleanses, or more specific were given to damage effects, condi damage could then be balanced against zerker style damage. It could also have the burst aspect of it removed that currently keeps condi competitive as it wouldn’t be able to be cleansed. it would become a true attrition style combat. Dodging a big condi application would be just as important as dodging a big hit, but auto attack applications would be equivalent to their power equiv (reduced to account for armor obviously.

TLDR the system is just bad, so you get mad when you lose to it.

because you only need 1 stat to increase dmg compared to power build which needs 3 letting you concentrate the rest of your options on defense

not all classes have equal access to good condi specs and of those that do, many of them are one trick ponies.

if you are making your build defensive vs condis its probably kitten when facing power builds. then youre just like… yeah thats a lot of condis I better push the clear button!

if your clear condi button is alrdy used and you get condi bombed again, its game over even if you got plenty of health remaining, like getting an incurable terminal disease. youre dead and you know it but theres nothing you can do about it while your opponent just avoids your attacks waiting for you to enter down state and stomp.

OneKlicKill.4285:

Cause the condi system in this game sucks. Its overly simplified and condis can just be flushed away like they never happens every few seconds because the only time you die to condi you either A: kittened up and its your fault or B: you used all your cleanse moments before and couldn’t do anything about it. Condi is always an insta win or loss theres very rarely a “close” fight with condi.

how are you more screwed when you are out of cleanses than when you have no dodges for the eviscerate? no cds/evades seems to equal death regardless of the damage.

10k burning over 5 secs, 10k eviscerate, it’s still 10k damage you ate to the face.

i’ve had a lot of close matches vs condi, but then again i know how to stagger my clears etc.

as for your eviscerate example, not regarding endure pain, the warrior has put himself in the most risk intensive position possible to deliver that damage. the warrior also had to charge his adrenalin bar and settle for using a sub par weapon to make evis work.

compare to condi engi pushing incendiary ammo button, which is a no cast time ability, then lets say blow torch (not regarding targeting issues) aim and burn then kite around hoping they cant clear it. if it doesnt work, run away until CDs reset.

choovanski.5462:

OneKlicKill.4285:

Cause the condi system in this game sucks. Its overly simplified and condis can just be flushed away like they never happens every few seconds because the only time you die to condi you either A: kittened up and its your fault or B: you used all your cleanse moments before and couldn’t do anything about it. Condi is always an insta win or loss theres very rarely a “close” fight with condi.

how are you more screwed when you are out of cleanses than when you have no dodges for the eviscerate? no cds/evades seems to equal death regardless of the damage.

10k burning over 5 secs, 10k eviscerate, it’s still 10k damage you ate to the face.

i’ve had a lot of close matches vs condi, but then again i know how to stagger my clears etc.

Probably because most of this games biggest condi bomb skills are poorly telegraphed compared to say, an eviscerate. Yeah you can mitigate the condis right after they’re applied if you act fast, but its hard to dodge the bomb in most cases. The onlt truly telegraphed condi burst I can think of is the fairly obvious condi mes clones running at you to shatter, since most condi build clones don’t spawn on your target like a GS burst does.

Additionally much of a condi builds threat is of proc-based, like incendiary ammo for instance, or the guardian virtue that burns kitten, or on crit procs like incendiary powder that you can’t dodge, much like fire/air sigils. In the worst case scenario, such as the old PU condi builds that literally were “aids”, you’d just autoattack, clone autoattack, an clonedeath spike, and block for nearly all of your condi pressure until the target just dies. Its annoying to fight against in these extreme scenarios.

Another part of the problem in my opinion is that damaging conditions and debilitating conditions (weakness, vuln, cripple, blind) are both referred to as conditions, and applied similarly, and cleansed similarly. It would be overall better design to have different skills either:

1. Prioritize cleansing damaging conditions over debilitating conditions

Or

2. Have some skills cleanse damaging conditions and some skills cleanse debilitating conditions (much like the stim pack from the stupid engi GM trait, sorry but that trait is so laaaame).

These solutions would solve the problem of condi builds using cover conditions from vuln sigils and the like from making cleansing much more difficult. This would make things complicated in the case of traited fear and chill that deal damage.

While that would solve the problem for those facing a condi build, I feel as though the damage over time aspect and survivability of the condi builds should be buffed to compensate. Ideas include less burst condition application (signet of spite fear chains or guardian stuffs Q_Q) and more damage over time based gameplay, by allowing things like the dire amulet to come to pvp, while having condi burst lowered to balance it. This is because right now, condi builds are squishy as kitten, and they also tend to have burst condition application. Making condi builds less squishy but less bursty, would be better design in my opinion.

The main reason people hate condis is because they don’t like having to bring condi cleanse which isn’t as useful when not fighting condi builds. And when they take a risk by not bring condi cleanse and get matched against condi builds, they rage.

@nearlight, I don’t see how there’s a problem with condi burst. Just how there’s direct damage burst such as how a thief or mesmer would play or sustain damage how a ranger would play, the same should be allowed for condi damage. Every class in the game has the ability to handle condi burst. It’s just that players are more compelled to cry about it than to do anything about it. I honestly feel most of the hate toward condi burst stems from people not knowing how it happens, and not because it wasn’t well telegraphed but because it’s so uncommon to go up against these builds. People have no idea how any of the main damage sources get applied. And yes, there are main damage sources. It doesn’t just get applied from any action. I have even noticed that when I go up against some of the same people I’ve played against before, they end up adapting and doing much better than when we had first fought.

People in this game act completely irrationally. They think that burst builds touting large amounts of RNG sigil procs and crit are somehow more skillful than conditions, and it’s always been like that. If you look at WoW the tables are flipped and people consider DoT specs to take just as much or if not more skill than yolo burst specs.

For example people complained endlessly about stuff like Dhuumfire and Sun Spirit, but when everyone suddenly started running Fire/Air sigils which did far more comparable RNG damage, berserker builds were still “the most skillful”.

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that Conditions are extremely powerful if the opponent doesn’t have adequate condi clear compared to power damage. And that’s because Arenanet has given many builds spammable condi clear, so unless conditions are very strong, they would have no chance as a viable option.

TL;DR People hate conditions because there is too much condi clear available in the game, but if you don’t take it, conditions will destroy you (because conditions had to be overtuned to compensate for stuff like D/D ele, shoutbow spammable condi clear)

Hammerguard.9834:

snip

People hate condi because of how easy they are applied, how abundant their source is (especially compared to the cleanses of most classes) and most importantly:

because they can do burst-like damage while the attacker kites, uses stealths or invuls.

If you use direct damage, there is always the possibility of getting hit while hitting.
You have to play with your eyes open, avoid the hard-hitting attacks, use blinds, etc. When you go defensive, damage you do will decrease, it is a trivial matter of fairness. Conditions in this game break that mechanism by allowing you to unload a condi bomb and disappear. Target cleansed? Doesn’t matter, just kite/use superior tankiness until the next bomb is of cooldown (which will be way before the powerful cleansing abilities).

The comparison to direct damage you make is not applicable. Direct damage is easier mitigated in this game than condi damage and while somebody engages to deal direct damage, you have the chance to retaliate.

Condi users try to defend the mechanic as being just the other side of the coin of damage. It is not. In a small scale scenario is not an alternative damage source, it’s strictly the better one. While I agree that certain classes demand a modicum of skill to properly unload the condis, going condi is always the safer, easier playstyle.

considering blocks and evades stop condi damage just like power, and that cleanses are more common than invuns it seems like condi damage is easier to counter than power. it’s not like you can press a button after you get hit by a power damage skill not to take the damage, like you can do with condis.

low risk high reward gameplay – conditions.

I have multiple builds for multiple classes but if I want some fee easy loot bags in WvW, then I put on perplex PU mes or condi thief… Apply conditions, stealth, reset yourself as you’re OOC while opponent is not due to conditions, reapply, rinse and repeat until you have bags.
All damage done while you are in stealth, majority of time spent OOC. (how is that even remotely fair to power builds)

Lets not forget all my damage comes from condition damage, allowing me to take dire gear… You want the same DPS and tankiness on a power build? won’t happen, you gotta pick one or the other.

So is there any profession which can go full condition build and do equal dmg as Power builds? Any? Dungeons or PvP? If answer is no, why do we have conditions in this game than? Just for fun?
Condition Mesmer or engie maybe, but their dmg is still a bit lower than Power ones. So there is no superior condition build in this game. For Dungeons: Power for max dmg for all with exception of celestial eles. Same for PvP: Power is burstier and “safer” option. You don’t need to worry about all these condi cleanse.

Don’t bring WvW into this. Condis are a mess in WvW simply ‘cause of the condi duration food. To put it simply, if the opposing player doesn’t have the counter condi duration food then they’re dead. It boggles my mind people don’t get that yet. Regardless, this is about sPvP.

choovanski.5462:

¯\(?)/¯

scrubs? tbh, can’t say I’ve ever understood it either. damage is damage, idk why anyone thinks they should just be able to ignore it.

Yep, pretty much as this thread proves…

Condition builds kill bads. Bads get mad. Mad because bad because mad.

“Low skill cap” isn’t true. There are multiple condition builds out there that are relatively difficult to play. Conditionmancer for example is actually more difficult than Powermancer. Just because condition builds are beefy doesn’t mean they’re easy. It just means you have room to make one or two more mistakes, which you’re going to need since it takes longer for your damage to take effect.

Of course, there are cheesy condition builds as well but again, they just kill bads. Power builds are straight up better and there are few condition builds that can compete.

As I always like to say when on the subject of conditions and whining; People just hate condition builds because they get to think about it before the conditions kill them.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

As I always like to say when on the subject of conditions and whining; People just hate condition builds because they get to think about it before the conditions kill them.

Lol

Hammerguard.9834:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

As I always like to say when on the subject of conditions and whining; People just hate condition builds because they get to think about it before the conditions kill them.

Lol

That’s pretty true. IMO condition hate is primarily psychological, similar to how Thieves and Mesmers generate hate whether they’re OP or not because their defences rely on evading damage rather than facetanking it.

just incase you think i play condi in pvp, i don’t. i play shout warrior and laugh at conditions.

however, in wvw 21k damage on blowtorch was a bit much not to pass up. but that’s wvw, and wvw is broken. still, p/p engi is not an easy build to play. blow torch is hard as hell to land well, and you have to worry about cover conditions and timing burst etc. popping IA to have it cleansed blows so hard.

as @SpellOfIniquity says people hate condis because they know they are dead before they are. it makes the furious for some strange reason.

On my Guardian and Engineer the only Condition builds I can’t handle is Thief’s venom thingy thing, all other condition builds is quite easy.

It may be a bad Build but I think it is good but I play an Alchemist Bomber Engineer with Carrion stats and She can heal conditions all the time and rarely conditions is the doom of her. A spite condition necromancer is no go for her but she wont loose to it, it is just that that the fight will go on forever.

My Celestial Meditation/Symbol Guardian only has two skills to remove conditions one skill removes one and the other removes them all. I plan ahead that rarely use my skills to get rid of weak conditions I mostly use them to remove strong conditions from Thiefs or Necromancers Transfer conditions. Engineers Conditions are strong but usally very short and wont kill my guardian. But conditions is the worst enemy for my Guardian non the less but my Guardian is made to kill Zerkers.

And if I get attacked by two condition builds I am mostly screwed but I would be if I ended up with two Zerkers also.

I have no gripe with Conditions, I am more against Invisible-no-tell-one-shot skills.

If you get focussed with DD or Condi’s you gonna die.

That is unless you have an invuln (for DD), or a full condi clear.

All classes have access to both of these…so wtf are you complaining about?

Condi is fine unless you’re a dd ele or PU mesmer.

Those builds take no skill.

Embolism.8106:

The main reason people hate condis is because they don’t like having to bring condi cleanse which isn’t as useful when not fighting condi builds. And when they take a risk by not bring condi cleanse and get matched against condi builds, they rage.

this would be the main reason…

Another angle I didnt see mentioned was toughness has no effect on condi dmg. 1 offensive stat to increase dmg and only 1 defensive stat to overcome to win.

Does weakness reduce condi dmg?

It gets even simpler to win via condis.

Given how easily I’ve beaten experienced players with decent condi clears when I’m using condi builds, and that those players would typically beat me when I’m not using condi I find the idea that “condi is fine and it’s just bad players complaining” to be laughable.

Just last beta I took a condi build on the ‘useless’ rev out for a spin and wiped the floor with a ‘op pls nerf’ dd ele repeatedly even though I was still focusing on simple executions and not even paying attention to what he was doing.

why?
1. condis are extremely easy to apply (persistent aoe, auto attacks etc.)
2. condis are hard to mitiagte (ignore armor/toughness, need multiple condi removals which most classes can’t run w/o making entire build unviable)
3. most condis have second controlling effects (slow, no control over character, reduce healing etc.)
4. burning got overbuffed and does often more dmg than direct dmg spells while being one of the easiest condi to apply

why?? So silly question.
First of all, as someone as already said, having to change your build utility to counter condition is just a bad thing, when you can counter power burst with just stats.
Also weakness and protection not affecting condi damage is really bad and poor balance.
Second, no matter how many cleanse you have, the opponent will always have more condi application, is like he is ignoring your counters.
Third, most of power burst skill are on melee based attack, melee base attack = more risk, more reward.
Four and most important: most of condi are applyed as a side effect of multiple skills, means the player can just spam skills to have as a result a condi burst, while on the opposite, for power burst you need to set combos or outplay the opponent with smart movements and telegraphed skills.
Five, condition damage encourages kiting.
Sixth, condi damge should be supposed to be a “damage during time”, not a burst as it is now.
Seven: yea it doesnt require skill to play condi, you can just spam autoattack.

Shala.8352:

why?? So silly question.
First of all, as someone as already said, having to change your build utility to counter condition is just a bad thing, when you can counter power burst with just stats.
Also weakness and protection not affecting condi damage is really bad and poor balance.
Second, no matter how many cleanse you have, the opponent will always have more condi application, is like he is ignoring your counters.
Third, most of power burst skill are on melee based attack, melee base attack = more risk, more reward.
Four and most important: most of condi are applyed as a side effect of multiple skills, means the player can just spam skills to have as a result a condi burst, while on the opposite, for power burst you need to set combos or outplay the opponent with smart movements and telegraphed skills.
Five, condition damage encourages kiting.
Sixth, condi damge should be supposed to be a “damage during time”, not a burst as it is now.
Seven: yea it doesnt require skill to play condi, you can just spam autoattack.

1: I cant see the difference between taking an invn for power damage, and a clear for condis. furthermore you suggest taking a tankier amulet for defence against power, which is changing you build to be more survivable vs power damage. why should you have to build against power and not condi?

2: just like a power build has more damaging skills than you have blocks and evades? perhaps try killing them before they kill you.

3: mesmer, engineer, ranger are all classes that can burst from range and are power. furthermore, most condi builds are medium range or melee (p/p engi, condi ranger, burn guard etc).

4: power builds can just spam to win also, well if the opponent is a scrub the can. furthermore the fact you think condi builds don’t require combos is mind boggling. have you ever played a condi build? because it’s all about cover conditions and baiting clears so you can use your stronger condi skills without them being cleansed. there are loads of combos, PF + WW on burn guard, the ol entange in the bonfire etc.

5: i kite on every build i play when it’s beneficial to me. sure it’s annoying when you get kited, maybe you should try some cc?

6: it is damage over time, it just happens burning does a lot of damage if you stack a lot of it fast—— oooo and how do ya’ do that? it’s not spamming autos it’s combos budddy. power burst is still significantly higher than what burning can do, and you cant clear a 10k+ shatter you just die. furthermore all other condis are more damage over time than burning, which is still damage over time.

7: if condi builds are killing you with auto spam it’s because you are a terrible player and no one would need skill to beat you because of how how bad you would have to be.

complaining about condition damage is basically saying “i ate a bunch of skills and died. I don’t like to die. nerf so I won’t die”. the excuse is always “too many condis for my cleanses please nerf”. imagine complaining about power damage like people do about condis. “i ate mesmer shatter and died plz nerf i need to be able to tank this my invn was on cooldown” “longbow ranger killed me. I don’t have enough dodges to evade every singe arrow OP plz nerf” “eviscerate is too hard to deal with when i slot no vigor, no energy sigils, no evades, no blocks, no invuns. when i use my dodge rolls they can just kill me. i need to be able to facetank this. plz nerf”.

homes, there are two types of damage in the game power and condition. i have no idea why you only think it’s ok for power to kill you.

Hammerguard.9834:

What is this sick idea everyone has that if you die to condis then that class is either overpowered or ridiculous or aids or tumors or stds or did nothing or skill less? I’ve literally heard all of these and more. No matter what class it is, if it’s condi and it killed you it’s “aids”.

Then there’s other ignorant ideas that go around such as, “how am I suppose to cleanse all of these condis?” Or, “why can’t my class cleanse everything like others?” Can you or can you not “cleanse” all direct damage you take?

People forget there are two kinds of damage in this game. Just because one is much less popular than the other doesn’t mean it’s any less fair and viable.

PS. I would like nothing more than to have condis be as popular as direct damage but with things like diamond skin, necro’s ridiculous transfer rates, structures taking no condi damage, and people screaming “aids”, it’s never going to happen.

I can choose which direct damage attack to avoid via dodge, los, etc.

I cannot choose, the majority of the time, which condition to remove with cleanse.

Therefore, it IS less fair fighting condi.

Gabriell.4856:

Hammerguard.9834:

What is this sick idea everyone has that if you die to condis then that class is either overpowered or ridiculous or aids or tumors or stds or did nothing or skill less? I’ve literally heard all of these and more. No matter what class it is, if it’s condi and it killed you it’s “aids”.

Then there’s other ignorant ideas that go around such as, “how am I suppose to cleanse all of these condis?” Or, “why can’t my class cleanse everything like others?” Can you or can you not “cleanse” all direct damage you take?

People forget there are two kinds of damage in this game. Just because one is much less popular than the other doesn’t mean it’s any less fair and viable.

PS. I would like nothing more than to have condis be as popular as direct damage but with things like diamond skin, necro’s ridiculous transfer rates, structures taking no condi damage, and people screaming “aids”, it’s never going to happen.

I can choose which direct damage attack to avoid via dodge, los, etc.

I cannot choose, the majority of the time, which condition to remove with cleanse.

Therefore, it IS less fair fighting condi.

fair point. it would be nice if clears prioritised damaging conditions. However I should also mention that many skills that apply condis can be dodged. Furthermore when I que for pve I play shout warrior, which has AOE condi clense for the whole team. that’s an important thing to remember for condi, one person can spec to cleanse their whole team which often makes builds like burn guard useless in team-fights. this is why condi builds are not meta, because AOE clear makes them useless.

@Gabriell

First of all, why do so many people seem to think that condi damage is unavoidable? When talking about mitigating condi damage, the only option people seem to see is condi removal when some of the same tools used to prevent direct damage can also be used to prevent condi damage (invuln/dodge).

Second. In what world do you think you have full control over which attacks hit you and which don’t? Condi or not.

Next is nerf warrior. His killshot took half my life at once ….

Wolfric.9380:

Next is nerf warrior. His killshot took half my life at once ….

[SCREAMING]

I ATE THE BURN GUARDIANS WHOLE BURST AND IT KILLED ME OP!!!

only mesmers are allowed to burst me 100-0, sorry guys but these are the new rules i just made up.