Guild Wars 2

they got greedy trying to make this big as LoL…stubbornly refused to remedy the situation properly. head management cares more about PVE

Ryan.9387:

The playerbase is too small for an esport. PvP must become free to play for esports to even be a possibility.

You do realize dota and league aren’t the only esport games?

Whether it will be an esport or not shouldn’t be an immediate concern.

Morinmeth.9823:

andytango.2950:

Honestly, GvG has a huge advantage over PvP for GW2.

1. It is quite unique in the MMO scene
2. It is unique in the streaming scene
3. It is accessible to more players (since WvW is a low pressure environment to begin)
4. It is more interesting. Skills in GW2, especially with the camera angles, are not that interesting. With a 20v20 GvG with an objective focus, there can be a lot of innovations in the metagame.
5. It caters to a huge demand of the playerbase for guilds to mean more than a social hub.

How do you host 40 people and 40 desks with computers on them, on a scene, in front of a crowd?
Also, I don’t think 20v20 GvG is viewer-friendly. Maybe 10v10 could do it, but 20v20 looks like a big cluster of people marching, in my opinion. I know the tactics behind it can be pretty intense, but it has to look intense, not just be there, hidden underneath 20 norns in heavy armor.

You missed the point.

Arenanet and GW2 has already missed the opportunity to ESPORT their game like Blizzard did with SC2, i.e. brute-force market and creating tournaments to make an esport out of it. That is not sustainable nor a suitable option for Arenanet – a much smaller company. GW2 can only become an esport by having first of all, a burgeoning competitive scene. To have a competitive scene, it needs a fun gametype with less pressure on people to join in and have a try – yet have a skill curve that isn’t one dimensional. Both of these criteria eliminate sPvP from the immediate possibility of an sPvP esport scene. GvG is perhaps the best candidate since most player already have had a taste from WvW. It can be 10v10 or 20v20 or 15v15 – it only matters which is more fun and involves enough strategy as well as skill for spectators to care about. Don’t worry about the 40 computers and 40 plane tickets – we aren’t even close to that stage yet! They need this game to be enjoyable to play and watch and become big on twitch.tv.

I agree with some here, GvG style battles are way more entertaining to watch then PvP. There is a lot more going on, the pace is way faster, tactics are more engaging, more varied builds etc. I think its possible for GW2 to become an eSport through large GvG style combat, I’m thinking 20v20 and up. That is what will draw people to this game, and that is what Anet should focus on. Small scale stuff like 5v5 is incredibly boring compared to the chaos of a full scale battle to the average viewer.

RoRo.8270:

Ryan.9387:

The playerbase is too small for an esport. PvP must become free to play for esports to even be a possibility.

You do realize dota and league aren’t the only esport games?

An esport needs to be large enough so somebody who doesn’t even play the genre knows the game.

1) LoL – free to play
2) Dota – free to play
3) World of tanks – free to play
4) SC2 – $35

The only one not free to play is sc2, which already had enough of a following from brood war to support a buy to play game. Note that dota and lol came after starcraft, but have more viewers and players.

My friends can say “play lol with me, just a 30 min download.”
I must say “pay $40 for a game you might not like to play pvp with me.”

Short answer: No.

Man I remember threads like this popping up back in the closed beta. It was determined that the hardest aspect for gw2 to conquer in terms of esports was watchability. In any sport, you need a “center of gravity” that the viewer can follow. In rl sports its usually a ball, in LoL it’s the 3 lanes, in sc2 it’s bases. Anets answer to this dilema was conquest. Unfortunately, conquest isn’t all that fun to watch as a whole because of its linear nature.
Idk, for me it was always the art style. It’s funner to watch games that are more colorful like LoL or WoW, the skill animations and effects are much more unique and identifiable. It makes the experience much more relatable for the viewer. Much of the skill animations in gw2 are just reskins -even important heals and ultimates don’t have unique/awesome looking animations. Like thief’s heal and poison elite -they share the same skill animation. Without cast bars this makes watching the game a painful experience because the viewer is the one having to guess what spell is actually being used -rather than the player showing them.
Could the game be esports? sure, in fact many sponsors and media sites (like the one I work for) consider it an esport already. Will it ever be on the same level as sc2 or LoL? I highly doubt it. -I don’t think any game will grow to the level that LoL has over these past few years; at least not for awhile. LoL will die out eventually and esports may die out with it, if we’re lucky another game will come along with a hypercompetitive infrastructure and replace it (probably dota 2, if anything).

no, the game’s balance is horrible

ghaleon.2861:

no, the game’s balance is horrible

Balance can always be fixed, and balance depends on the metagame and the gametype.

Implement a fun and approachable gametype and balance will come after. We may even get innovations and revolutions in teamcomp and build usage, so balance is a very minimal consideration at this stage.

Darkobra.6439:

Morinmeth.9823:

Your last phrase gives away the reasoning behind your previous statements; you’re a casual player and play for fun. Well, just because YOU play for fun, that doesn’t mean that we all should play for fun. And if, SOMEHOW (miracles, tons of good decisions by anet, etc) gw2 makes it into a successful MMO e-sport, this doesn’t mean that you HAVE to stop playing for fun. You can still do your thing, no one will get in your way. But, there are people like me, who can’t wait to test their skills, see how good they are, without grinding ranks, without capping points, just fighting, fighting, fighting.

As someone that HAS done the E-Sports scene and won cash prizes, you really can have fun in the process. If you’re not having fun, quit. Do not waste your time. Do not waste your sponsor’s time. Do not waste the time of your opponent.

I’ve fought so many people who thought that Street Fighter was a numbers game. It was all about the frames, all about the damage per second, all about the S rank characters. They were predictable. They were boring. They never made it anywhere in life.

Then I fought some people that shared a true passion for the game and became good BECAUSE they had fun playing it. They were very unique, very unpredictable and kitten hard to read. They adapted, they knew the game inside and out and they loved every second of it.

It wasn’t a chore to anyone that made it to the finals. It was our love. The minute you tell people that playing for fun is the wrong way, you lose any grounds you have in a true E-Sport scene.

Maybe you should stop looking for the fastest way to win and start remembering how to play the game? You’ll make it to my level that way. I guarantee it.

Maybe it was my poor English that killed my post and made you misunderstand a couple of stuff – I’m sorry for that.

Let me rephrase that, “there are people like me, who can’t wait to test their skills, see how good they are, without grinding ranks, without capping points, just fighting, fighting, fighting and that’s fun for them, because that’s where the adrenaline is”. I never said “I play to win/I don’t play for fun”. Hell, if it wasn’t fun, I wouldn’t be playing.

Off topic note: if you’re that good, I’d love to do some 1v1s against you. Not to win, but to practice and to have fun. I’m always looking for some good fights.

andytango.2950:

ghaleon.2861:

no, the game’s balance is horrible

Balance can always be fixed, and balance depends on the metagame and the gametype.

Implement a fun and approachable gametype and balance will come after. We may even get innovations and revolutions in teamcomp and build usage, so balance is a very minimal consideration at this stage.

I highly doubt that, but I like your optimism. Balance is important, specially if the game wants to become an esport. And the current game balance is worse than back when we had the burst meta.

andytango.2950:

Morinmeth.9823:

andytango.2950:

Honestly, GvG has a huge advantage over PvP for GW2.

1. It is quite unique in the MMO scene
2. It is unique in the streaming scene
3. It is accessible to more players (since WvW is a low pressure environment to begin)
4. It is more interesting. Skills in GW2, especially with the camera angles, are not that interesting. With a 20v20 GvG with an objective focus, there can be a lot of innovations in the metagame.
5. It caters to a huge demand of the playerbase for guilds to mean more than a social hub.

How do you host 40 people and 40 desks with computers on them, on a scene, in front of a crowd?
Also, I don’t think 20v20 GvG is viewer-friendly. Maybe 10v10 could do it, but 20v20 looks like a big cluster of people marching, in my opinion. I know the tactics behind it can be pretty intense, but it has to look intense, not just be there, hidden underneath 20 norns in heavy armor.

You missed the point.

Arenanet and GW2 has already missed the opportunity to ESPORT their game like Blizzard did with SC2, i.e. brute-force market and creating tournaments to make an esport out of it. That is not sustainable nor a suitable option for Arenanet – a much smaller company. GW2 can only become an esport by having first of all, a burgeoning competitive scene. To have a competitive scene, it needs a fun gametype with less pressure on people to join in and have a try – yet have a skill curve that isn’t one dimensional. Both of these criteria eliminate sPvP from the immediate possibility of an sPvP esport scene. GvG is perhaps the best candidate since most player already have had a taste from WvW. It can be 10v10 or 20v20 or 15v15 – it only matters which is more fun and involves enough strategy as well as skill for spectators to care about. Don’t worry about the 40 computers and 40 plane tickets – we aren’t even close to that stage yet! They need this game to be enjoyable to play and watch and become big on twitch.tv.

Yes, I’m worried about the 40 people on one stage, because it’s not doable. You need a giant stage for that one. To have funds for such a big place, to host a big crowd, you need to make the game popular. And to make the game popular, you need to attract a huge majority of gamers out there – and those ones are the ones that want to see epic battles between a few select people, not whole guilds. You lose track of individuals in a crowd of 20 people.

Why GvG isn’t what will make the game more popular? Because you don’t see the skill behind an individual, you see the strategies behind a group. This is good, but it shouldn’t be the main attraction. Just think about the MOBA games, what makes them so enjoyable to watch? Is it because the game is awesome? Not only that. Is it because the team is awesome? Not only that either. It’s because these teams are small enough to help individuals among them stand out and make shiny, bloodthirsty plays. Because that’s what matters, an individual’s playmaking. Most people out there don’t give a flying kitten about tactics; if arenanet and the playerbase want to insist on being romantic like that, you guys can be my guests, but the e-sports scene is all about killing, is about adrenaline, is about epic plays. This isn’t something a 40-man fight can offer, this is something a battle between a few, select, incredible individuals can offer – that’s why Sacrx and many people from the beginning of the game, including me, are asking for Deathmatch Arenas and King of the Hill official game modes, and those ones should be the main theme of Guild Wars 2, not a dominion game type that half the time is spent on capping and not actuall fighting.

All we asking for, is a giant arena so we can kill each other all day long. I don’t even care if the arena is well-made, if it’s made of pixels or not. I swear, I’m gonna be pulling all-nighters almost every day if that happens. It’s a simple concept. But no, Arenanet have this “vision” of a dominion, artistic game, and the rest of the people are asking for GvG, when the point of online gaming itself, is fighting and having fun through it, nothing more, nothing less.

@Morinmeth

Again, you missed the point.

You don’t have to care about there being 40 people on stage. That is not something to worry about now, nor is it certain that this problem will ever eventuate. When you have a business strategy, you have an overall concept, but you don’t go worrying about a specific problem that may or may not eventuate in the future. That’s how you don’t get anything done. Take that as a life tip.

Arenanet has a simple task at hand. Make an enjoyable and accessible game mode for the majority of the playerbase that is preferrably unique to GW2. That is the GvG. You’re right in that you don’t see individual play as much as in PvP. That is obvious. That is the nature of the gametype. That is why it is forgiving for casuals to get into in the first place. However, as players get more competitive, you will start seeing strategies and tactics for the entire 20-man team or 10-man team or w/e the team size is. You will also see specific plays by individuals who do something out of the ordinary, that have specific importance for that gametype.

It is a given that you don’t have the same focus in GvG as in PvP. That doesn’t discredit it as a competitive gametype, nor does it discredit it as a potential esport. What it does do is provide a more forgiving environment for players and guilds to get into the competitive scene, and offer something different to the esport fans who already see enough individual skills in LoL, Dota 2 and SC2. If they instead want to see some major battles with pseudo-realistic formations and tactis, they can watch GW2.

That allows GW2 to pioneer a niche of their own and monopolise it. WoW tried PvP esports and failed horribly. I’d argue no MMO is placed to do well as an esport by focusing on PvP, since no matter what, MMOs do not have the best framework to showcase individual skill. Teamwork, teamcomps, team strategies, team execution, however, is the unique advantage of MMOs.

Don’t worry about 40-man stages. If GW2 GvG ever became popular, it doesn’t need LANs in the first instance. There can be a world season with 20 invited/qualified teams – 10 from EU, 10 from NA, and matches throughout the season spread through the week, casted by dedicated teams. Why does there have to be a LAN? Conversely, why not 40 computers? If it’s an event at Gamescom or an annual event, e.g. the finals of the season, why not 40 computers? If it’s for publicity and it is worth it, 40 computers is a piece of cake.

Worrying about the 40-man stage now is a ridiculous misallocation of resources. There are many ways to solve in the future, and many that are not yet apparent until further developments. They just need to create the gametype and do it right and people will make it happen.

Ryan.9387:

RoRo.8270:

Ryan.9387:

The playerbase is too small for an esport. PvP must become free to play for esports to even be a possibility.

You do realize dota and league aren’t the only esport games?

An esport needs to be large enough so somebody who doesn’t even play the genre knows the game.

1) LoL – free to play
2) Dota – free to play
3) World of tanks – free to play
4) SC2 – $35

The only one not free to play is sc2, which already had enough of a following from brood war to support a buy to play game. Note that dota and lol came after starcraft, but have more viewers and players.

My friends can say “play lol with me, just a 30 min download.”
I must say “pay $40 for a game you might not like to play pvp with me.”

Thank you for confirming there are only 4 esport games ever out. Very good sample bias. So much for counter strike, street fighter, Warcraft 3, etc. I’m trying to show you it isn’t a requirement to become an esport.

Making the pvp portion of the game f2p won’t suddenly make this game esports. There is a reason the pvp portion of this game is small and it’s not because of the reasons you listed

RoRo.8270:

Ryan.9387:

RoRo.8270:

Ryan.9387:

The playerbase is too small for an esport. PvP must become free to play for esports to even be a possibility.

You do realize dota and league aren’t the only esport games?

An esport needs to be large enough so somebody who doesn’t even play the genre knows the game.

1) LoL – free to play
2) Dota – free to play
3) World of tanks – free to play
4) SC2 – $35

The only one not free to play is sc2, which already had enough of a following from brood war to support a buy to play game. Note that dota and lol came after starcraft, but have more viewers and players.

My friends can say “play lol with me, just a 30 min download.”
I must say “pay $40 for a game you might not like to play pvp with me.”

Thank you for confirming there are only 4 esport games ever out. Very good sample bias. So much for counter strike, street fighter, Warcraft 3, etc. I’m trying to show you it isn’t a requirement to become an esport.

Making the pvp portion of the game f2p won’t suddenly make this game esports. There is a reason the pvp portion of this game is small and it’s not because of the reasons you listed

Actually, I think with the new generation of esports, accessibility is a huge part to becoming a legitimate esport. F2P is definitely a big factor to this. However, I don’t think this needs to be addressed yet since we already have a big potential competitive population. Perhaps in the future, Arenanet could consider switching or opening F2P servers, but I don’t think it is integral to Arenanet’s decision-making in their current position. They don’t even have a gametype that is suitable for esports yet!

build wars 2 will not become an esport

no it will not

RoRo.8270:

Ryan.9387:

RoRo.8270:

Ryan.9387:

The playerbase is too small for an esport. PvP must become free to play for esports to even be a possibility.

You do realize dota and league aren’t the only esport games?

An esport needs to be large enough so somebody who doesn’t even play the genre knows the game.

1) LoL – free to play
2) Dota – free to play
3) World of tanks – free to play
4) SC2 – $35

The only one not free to play is sc2, which already had enough of a following from brood war to support a buy to play game. Note that dota and lol came after starcraft, but have more viewers and players.

My friends can say “play lol with me, just a 30 min download.”
I must say “pay $40 for a game you might not like to play pvp with me.”

Thank you for confirming there are only 4 esport games ever out. Very good sample bias. So much for counter strike, street fighter, Warcraft 3, etc. I’m trying to show you it isn’t a requirement to become an esport.

Making the pvp portion of the game f2p won’t suddenly make this game esports. There is a reason the pvp portion of this game is small and it’s not because of the reasons you listed

You miss the point. If it isn’t big enough that I can’t identify it as an esport without playing it, it isn’t an important esport. I’m not meaning that as in I’m some definitive opinion. Take another person and ask them the same questions. Disregard games they have played though.

If my friend asked me if dota was an esport, I’d say yes. If they asked me if the new counter strike game was, I’d say no.

If the new counterstrike “was” an esport, then they have done an awful job with their visibility considering how much I haunt twitch and reddit.

Luthan.5236:

Short answer: No.

long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

the good old times when people used the search command…

No, because they still have stupid maps like Skyhammer and Spirit Watch in the game, a stupid meta that allows hard counters, bunker warriors that doesn’t need skill to play, and a really horrible Balance team that hasn’t been fired.

Also, software engineers that are hired without good qualifications who didn’t have the foresight (and that goes to the management team) to not separate the 3 modes of the game individually.

AndrewSX.3794:

Nope.

Major issues:
-1 mode.
-that mode is incredibly boring and flawed
-balance is so bad it’s not even funny, even when taking in account only the 2/3 builds a prof have (implying that some prof have more than 1 decent build)
-reward structure and overall blending with the rest of the game are lackuster (might change in next months, but it’s too little too late)
-the overall combat system doesn’t allow to have deep mechanics in combat. Compared to Gw1, where you have hexes, enchantements, tide-changing interrupts, real team play, base holding + CtF + kill the lord + deathmatch in a single game mode, and so on, Gw2 just looks like a bad joke.

&

Ensign.2189:

It’s incredibly unlikely. The standard is going up very quickly and making an esports-grade game does not play to the strengths of A.Net at all.

That is, A.Net has a really spectacular team of artists and some really good writers (yes, yes, insert Scarlett jokes here) that are doing a fantastic job of content creation. What they’re doing with the living world plays to their strengths as a company, and works really well as PvE content – content you complete once or a handful of times, then move on to the next thing.

A top notch competitive game works the other way – it’s not about content quantity, but quality. A good PvP game might have a very limited amount of content, but that content has been refined, tweaked, balanced, and optimized so that playing it the 1000th time is more rewarding than the 1st time. Arena.net hasn’t even managed to correct basic descriptive text errors 16 months after release.

The top tier esports titles are managed by organizations focused first and foremost on the continuous improvement of their product. They have limited content, but work extremely hard to ensure that every bit of it is as high quality as it can possibly be.

A.Net is an organization that focuses on the continuous expansion of their product. They have heaps of content and focus on constantly creating more, shepherding players to the next thing.

The latter is a great skill set for creating a living PvE game. It is unfortunately totally contrary to the type of development necessary to build an esports brand. It would take a huge, huge organizational philosophy change for GW2 to become a competitive esport.

Not only is that difficult even in the best of circumstances, but I don’t even think it makes any financial sense. A.Net has a great PvE game and is a great PvE game design studio. They should stick to what they are good at, and work on being better at what they are good at.

Which is not esports.

are spot on.
The real question here, however, is why is esportz still a topic to start with.
I mean, look at all the great rewards pvp is getting now.

Dat said, I dare say gw1 had (a whole lot) more esportz potential gw2 currently does. To the tragedy of us all, it was way ahead of its time.

At Ensign, I’m surprised to see you’re still following these forums.