Guild Wars 2

I hope the devs get a pair of glasses and start watching what is happening in the game, Cuz Apparently They Are Blind.
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FlOwMaKeRs.8623:

I hope the devs get a pair of glasses and start watching what is happening in the game, Cuz Apparently They Are Blind.
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( L ) <——-

If you dont use cleanses\resist up skills its just ur problem.

this is pvp section of the forum, not wvw

druid, dragonhunter, rev, thief, scrapper, ele “meta pvp builds” are using power based amulets (6 out of 9 classes) and you can also play war, mes and necro with a power based amu…, pls tell me more about condis breaking pvp, or condis being “meta”

livlaender.8790:

this is pvp section of the forum, not wvw

druid, dragonhunter, rev, thief, scrapper, ele “meta pvp builds” are using power based amulets (6 out of 9 classes) and you can also play war, mes and necro with a power based amu…, pls tell me more about condis breaking pvp, or condis being “meta”

Condi thief is more dangerous than power thief. Condi scrapper is just as powerful and slightly more survivable than power scrapper (but doesn’t bring the team support as much). Power rev is inferior to condi rev in damage, burst, and survivability but brings some extra team utility.

Right now you have power scrapper running marauder in sPVP, druid is running mender’s, DH is running mender’s or trapper’s (which is crit, not power), rev is running leadership (stats/boon duration, which has neither power nor condi). I don’t know what ele is running so I’ll err on the side of caution and assume power. Thief is running power (Marauder). So you have 2 or 3 running an amulet with any power on it out of 9, 3 running neither power nor condi out of 9, and 3-4 running condi out of 9. A..fairly close split, but certainly not even.

Power warrior and power necro are terrible for sPvP. Powershatter mesmer is…playable, but inferior to condi mesmer by a huge margin.

Moreover, the availability of resist/cleanse is extremely lopsided. Condi is pretty much worthless against DH and necro due to tons of cleanses/transfers/conversion, and absolutely deadly against rev and thief who have little access to it. It is not balanced even if people are wrong about it being more powerful. And I don’t personally think they’re wrong, I feel the damage output of condi is higher (in pvp) even if it generally isn’t as bursty.

@Lucred…, i wrote about “meta builds” and those 6 i mentioned use power based amus (i didnt wrote anything about runes, nore did i wrote something about the viability about condi speccs of those 6 classes)

and @power warrior being terrible in pvp…tell that obindo

livlaender.8790:

@Lucred…, i wrote about “meta builds” and those 6 i mentioned use power based amus (i didnt wrote anything about runes, nore did i wrote something about the viability about condi speccs of those 6 classes)

and @power warrior being terrible in pvp…tell that obindo

Yeah sorry I got a bit mixed up.
-thief is running Marauder (power/crit) or Carrion (condi/health), though power is slightly favored.
-DH is running Mender’s (health/heal)
-Necro is running carrion (condi/health)
-Scrapper is running Paladin’s (power/crit/health) or Carrion (condi/health), meta is tied powerhammer/flamethrower condi
-Warrior is running carrion (condi/health). I don’t care if Obindo plays power warrior, it is bad for 99.999% of sPvP players.
-Ele is running Mender’s (health/heal)
-Mesmer is running Carrion (condi/health)
-Druid is running Mender’s (health/heal)
-Revenant is running either Seeker’s (power/health/concentration) or Viper’s (power/condi), meta is tied power vs. condi.

So again, while I screwed up the wording, you have 3 viable power builds, 6 viable condi builds, and 3 builds that focus on healthpool and healing (and which have a mix of power and condi attacks).

Condi is grossly over-represented in the meta.

Oh bother. This again?

If you have trouble against condis in this meta then you’re clearly doing something wrong. Druid? Excellent cleanse. Dragonhunter? Excellent cleanse. Scrapper? Very nice cleanse. Warrior? Really nice cleanse. Necro? Good cleanse/transfers. Thief? Decent against condis. If you’re having problems against condis with one of the above classes, it’s not condis that’s the problem, it’s a playstyle issue.

As for lumping wvw with sPvP… they’re night and day.

Lucred.1802:

livlaender.8790:

@Lucred…, i wrote about “meta builds” and those 6 i mentioned use power based amus (i didnt wrote anything about runes, nore did i wrote something about the viability about condi speccs of those 6 classes)

and @power warrior being terrible in pvp…tell that obindo

Yeah sorry I got a bit mixed up.
-thief is running Marauder (power/crit) or Carrion (condi/health), though power is slightly favored.
-DH is running Mender’s (health/heal)
-Necro is running carrion (condi/health)
-Scrapper is running Paladin’s (power/crit/health) or Carrion (condi/health), meta is tied powerhammer/flamethrower condi
-Warrior is running carrion (condi/health). I don’t care if Obindo plays power warrior, it is bad for 99.999% of sPvP players.
-Ele is running Mender’s (health/heal)
-Mesmer is running Carrion (condi/health)
-Druid is running Mender’s (health/heal)
-Revenant is running either Seeker’s (power/health/concentration) or Viper’s (power/condi), meta is tied power vs. condi.

So again, while I screwed up the wording, you have 3 viable power builds, 6 viable condi builds, and 3 builds that focus on healthpool and healing (and which have a mix of power and condi attacks).

Condi is grossly over-represented in the meta.

Your analyze is really not representative and good.
1) condi scrapper and rev have really less survivability tools than power version! Just compare the hammer and p/p or bombs/flamethrower kit mandatory that delete a defensive utility slot. So the meta is power rev and power scrapper. First mistake.

2) all carion builds are condi/health AND power. I don’t know if you play this amulet but in a mesmer/chrono/rev/scrapper the total power damage is high, sometimes equal or higher than condi (yes for a chrono too). So it’s an hybrid build not just a condi one!

3) druid and tempest are support with health/heal amulet BUT the do power damage and no so much condi one. Mender give an important POWER and CRITIC that allow druid (and tempest in a weaker measure) to have decent or nice power damage.

So the conclusion is not the same:
- power meta: dh, thief, rev, scrapper
- hybrid meta condi/power: chrono, reaper, warrior
- hybrid meta heal/ power: druid, tempest
- condi meta (damage with only condi stat, rabit for example): 0

Condi are powerfull but actually condi builds have in general less sustain than power ones. And condi alone without hybrid power condi are not sufficient to be meta.
In the meta you can do near 800k damage with power builds but rarely 800k condi damage, is more like 300k power and 500k condi (with good players and good teams).
So condi alone are < power.
The problem is not condi damage but defensive condi (chill, fear, cripple, weakness etc)

FlOwMaKeRs.8623:

I hope the devs get a pair of glasses and start watching what is happening in the game, Cuz Apparently They Are Blind.
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( L ) <——-

yeah lets just remove necro while were at it.

Power vs. Condi is quite balanced right now.
Careful what you complain about.

Quite balanced? what…

Every match I play Ranked theres always a DH condi, Mesmer condi, Warrior condi, like yoo for real…

Condition is more Strong than Power right now… The condition ignores your armor completely and you talking to me that this balanced? no matter what build anti-condi do you use… you *u**ed up… HoT just destroyed this game already, so sad..

- Condi Wars 2.

FlOwMaKeRs.8623:

Quite balanced? what…

Every match I play Ranked theres always a DH condi, Mesmer condi, Warrior condi, like yoo for real…

Condition is more Strong than Power right now… The condition ignores your armor completely and you talking to me that this balanced? no matter what build anti-condi do you use… you *u**ed up… HoT just destroyed this game already, so sad..

- Condi Wars 2.

Just because it applies condi to you, doesnt mean its a condi build or uses condi as its main source of DPS. This goes about triple in case of DH which applies a ton of burns all the way around no matter the build. I play one. I also used to play a hybrid guard back in the day which was pretty awesome, more glass then a glass thief cause no stealth, but the burst ….

You need to really check your logs and see what exactly killed you and when during combat and adjust your play.

to me what define a condi build to a power build is not the total dmg, but what normaly kills the opponent.
Is not important doing 700k power dmg in a match, if you couldt kill a single bunker with all that power dmg. Cuz in fact is kitteneless 700k dmg, you can spam autoattack all the day on a healing druid, you will do 1.5 milion dmg during the match, the druid wont die. You guys really have to judge by the dmg that is causing the kills, wich in the current meta is totaly not the power dmg, but the condi once the cleanse skills are run out.
Judging by this, necro, mesmer, warrior are no why so called hybrid, since there is no way they will kill you with a power based attack, but in 99,9% of the cases you will die to one of their many condi thicks they can apply randomly (since every single skill they do can apply condis).
Judging by this too, condi druid is able to kill more than power(loool)/healer druid.
Same goes with scrapper, yea off course he can survive more in power/bunker paladin whatsoever, but he will kill more in condi spec.
DH and rev are instead more power based, since they rely on huge single burst, and furthermore their condi specs aren’t able to spamm random condis, and rely on singles crucial skills land.
Thief condi is totaly more easy and succed than power based, since is a class based on avoid the dmg by perma dodging, is rather more succesfull to kill when dodging all the time and let the condi do the dmg for you, so you can play safer.

You guys are really missjudging the nature of bunkers, bunkers are not power based, bunkers are bunker, bunkers are healing power/toghness/vitality based!!! A bunker is not winning you by his power dmg, he is winning cuz he can outsustain your dmg. And usualy a bunker does more dmg with condis, since condi dmg is bad managed on low stat, you can clearly see it on revenant facet of elements, wich put burning thicking 500+ even with 0 condi dmg, wich means that this aoe main dmg is condi even if the rev is full zerk spec.

To me, if you want to create kills with a power based spec, you have to invest on precision and ferocity too, else you won’t be a power based spec, you will just be a random cleave spec not able to burst anything, you better go condi then

Every person who defends condi this season plays a condi build. Durrr

There is no sufficient condi cleanse on any class to survive multiple condition bombs.

Its just not possible.
Good condi cleanse/transfer on necro means 99% you’re running a condi build anyways. This does nothing to aid the relevance of power builds.

Anet has basically made 2 builds viable for necromancers and they are condition builds.

We do have enough condition cleanse for 1 vs 1

We do not and should not have enough condition cleanse for 1 vs 2

Players who complain are often bruser/bunkers that 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 if the enemy is a solid power spec because of evade or blocks. For example Guardian can block 1 vs as many as long as the don’t all have unblockables but he cannot cleanse multiple unblockable necros.

epouvante.7392:

Lucred.1802:

livlaender.8790:

@Lucred…, i wrote about “meta builds” and those 6 i mentioned use power based amus (i didnt wrote anything about runes, nore did i wrote something about the viability about condi speccs of those 6 classes)

and @power warrior being terrible in pvp…tell that obindo

Yeah sorry I got a bit mixed up.
-thief is running Marauder (power/crit) or Carrion (condi/health), though power is slightly favored.

-DH is running Mender’s (health/heal)
-Necro is running carrion (condi/health)
-Scrapper is running Paladin’s (power/crit/health) or Carrion (condi/health), meta is tied powerhammer/flamethrower condi
-Warrior is running carrion (condi/health). I don’t care if Obindo plays power warrior, it is bad for 99.999% of sPvP players.
-Ele is running Mender’s (health/heal)
-Mesmer is running Carrion (condi/health)
-Druid is running Mender’s (health/heal)
-Revenant is running either Seeker’s (power/health/concentration) or Viper’s (power/condi), meta is tied power vs. condi.

So again, while I screwed up the wording, you have 3 viable power builds, 6 viable condi builds, and 3 builds that focus on healthpool and healing (and which have a mix of power and condi attacks).

Condi is grossly over-represented in the meta.

Your analyze is really not representative and good.
1) condi scrapper and rev have really less survivability tools than power version! Just compare the hammer and p/p or bombs/flamethrower kit mandatory that delete a defensive utility slot. So the meta is power rev and power scrapper. First mistake.

2) all carion builds are condi/health AND power. I don’t know if you play this amulet but in a mesmer/chrono/rev/scrapper the total power damage is high, sometimes equal or higher than condi (yes for a chrono too). So it’s an hybrid build not just a condi one!

3) druid and tempest are support with health/heal amulet BUT the do power damage and no so much condi one. Mender give an important POWER and CRITIC that allow druid (and tempest in a weaker measure) to have decent or nice power damage.

So the conclusion is not the same:
- power meta: dh, thief, rev, scrapper
- hybrid meta condi/power: chrono, reaper, warrior
- hybrid meta heal/ power: druid, tempest
- condi meta (damage with only condi stat, rabit for example): 0

Condi are powerfull but actually condi builds have in general less sustain than power ones. And condi alone without hybrid power condi are not sufficient to be meta.
In the meta you can do near 800k damage with power builds but rarely 800k condi damage, is more like 300k power and 500k condi (with good players and good teams).
So condi alone are < power.
The problem is not condi damage but defensive condi (chill, fear, cripple, weakness etc)

For condi engi rabid/wanderer is better than carrion . One of the most damage source of conditon damage in condition engineer remains incendiary powder, which needs Precision …. so carrion is not a great choice … you can use rabid /wanderer or sinister/viper. For SPVP i prefer rabid becouse it has more survivability. WIth a low health pool the toughness helps you a lot to lose less vitality from direct damage.

As a druid, I have to run every single possible condi cleanse available.
Druidic Clarity (13 cleanse on CF)
Wilderness Knowledge (2 cleanse on each survival utility)
Shared Anguish (transfer one CC to pet)
Rune of Soldier (1 cleanse on each shout)
Sigil of Generosity (1 transfer on crit, 9s ICD)
Sigil of Purity (1 cleanse on hit, 10s ICD)

….and I’m still struggling to cope with the amount of conditions in pvp particularly condi thief and condi war.

I often played druid with Druidic Clarity as only condi clear(sometimes SoR in addition – only against very condi heavy teams though) – and that was enough to deal with most condi builds. Getting +1’ed by a thief or rev was the most common reason for my deaths, not condis. And that was last season, where i encountered much more condi builds than this season (haven’t played much PvP lately though) .
Ever tried to not facetank everything? It is not always a build issue …

TheDevice.2751:

Every person who defends condi this season plays a condi build. Durrr

There is no sufficient condi cleanse on any class to survive multiple condition bombs.

You shouldn’t survive multiple Power Creep bombs either, and you usually don’t.

I think the main problems are that people don’t know how to manage incoming condi very well. They clear too early or too late, don’t dodge or block the skills that are applying the condi bombs in the first place or are in a bad position you shouldn’t be. If you’re QQing on the forums for a nerf, I really hope you’ve exhausted all your options, studied all the builds/skills that are making your bum hurt, added Purity, Generosity, Cleansing sigils or more clears on your util bar first. Use Hoelbrak or runes like it. Or just know what your “counters” are and pick your battles correctly. BTW, I main power Scrapper. If condi was better, I’d use it. But it’s just not. It’s viable in lower tiers though…Or for a few games here and there. Condi has more ways to counter. Preventing it from being applied/stacked and clearing it if it does get applied to you. Instead of saying Get Gud, L2P ect, I’m saying Practice More.

If you watch ESL, really only Chrono and Berserker are the pro “meta” builds/professions. Though Power Berserker is in a pretty good spot. And Yes, Condi Necro is stronger than Power in Conquest, but Necro isn’t seen even close to as much as last couple seasons. I think a lot of ppl judge what they see in lower tiers is being the “meta”. That’s really not the case.

Please, thank god someone said it.

With HoT, conditions are applied so much and so frequently there is no counter. It’s simply too much, compared to the “viable counters/removals.”

Conditions have no business behaving how they behave, and have destroyed and semblance of a meta and have made power builds entirely a joke.

Conditions are doing 3x the damage they have any business doing.

Those carried by condition builds will contest this thread heavily, but if you want a kill in sPvP, earn it. I shouldn’t have to be fighting my own movement and skill bar.

Lots of interesting opinions being expressed here. So much of this has been focused on balance, and I don’t think that’s the right approach for this. Instead, I will present a two-fold argument: build diversity and game feel.

Build diversity suffers because of how prevalent conditions are. As a Warrior, I pretty much have to take Berserker Stance, Healing Signet, and Defense Specialization because if I didn’t, a Necro could handle me faster than I could blink. Pretty much every “meta” build exists because it has ways to mitigate damage in ways that are extremely powerful, and often not counter playable. Whether that be sustain, condition clear, stealth, etc. The issue is these polarizing mechanics enforce a lack of build diversity.

It feels awful to play around conditions. They are generally just an annoyance and go against core ArenaNet design philosophy. Early on in development the mantra was “Watch your screen, not the UI”. Conditions are almost the complete opposite of that. Yes, there are visual queues. But how should I know, without looking at my bar, if I should remove the burning I have on me? Yes, you can wait until a tick of the damage. You can maybe infer it from the skill they used. But really you have to look at the number of stacks and know they are a condition build. Even if you don’t have to do that, playing this silly game of whack-a-mole with Conditions is not a good game feel. It’s terrible.

These are just problem statements. I don’t think Conditions are breaking the game from a balance stand point. As several other people have pointed out, Power is kind of the thing right now. However, sPvP remains boring to watch as a spectator sport because of how the builds work right now. Sustain and long time to kill runs rampant at high level gameplay. It’s conjecture whether or not this is by design.

Proposed solution:

- Conditions do more per tick but last a shorter duration
- Abilities that apply conditions become more telegraphed
- Increase visual queues for conditions, making them scale with the damage they will do (e.g. one stack of fire from non-condi is barely any visual queue, 6 stacks from a condition build is me engulfed in flames)
- Rework skills that provide too much access to conditions such as Signet of Spite

The idea behind this is that conditions become more counter playable and more of an active system in Guild Wars. The issue right now is conditions are pretty free to apply. So much auto application, so many skills applying tons of conditions, etc. It’s not a healthy state for the game and it should be a much more deliberate and active decision to use them, to cleanse them, and to have meaningful options to counter play without having to stack tons of cleanses on yourself.

Remember in GW1 how conditions worked, and the builds that used them (Cripshot/Melandru’s shot Ranger) (or pressure heavy comps via hex+condition). Much more balanced, much more enjoyable. I personally don’t care if condi or power is stronger, ill just play meta; but the amount of aoe blind/block in this game is disgusting, the GW1 devs are rolling in their graves). Extremely powerful conditions should not be spammable, ever.

Vicariuz.1605:

Remember in GW1 how conditions worked, and the builds that used them (Cripshot/Melandru’s shot Ranger) (or pressure heavy comps via hex+condition). Much more balanced, much more enjoyable. I personally don’t care if condi or power is stronger, ill just play meta; but the amount of aoe blind/block in this game is disgusting, the GW1 devs are rolling in their graves). Extremely powerful conditions should not be spammable, ever.

I think you highlight a very interesting point here. GW1 was much more about damage in vs damage out (sans the Mesmer shut downs which were incredible on healers). All things considered, given the non-action oriented nature of that game, the combat was more methodical and conditions made sense. I would agree with you that they were generally less powerful there in terms of damage numbers. But you summarized it well: Extremely powerful conditions should not be spammable.

The only real problem condition ability in the game is skill grinder solely because of the order it applies it’s conditions in and warriors lack of other sources of confusion.

People have a fair lack of understanding about how condition application and removal really works because nowhere in game does it actually explain clearly.

I kinda think Anet should rename Necromancer to Conditionizer

Or like. Condi-person. Conditioncer.

Mace from warrior should be changed in a pure power/CC weapon. Skull grinder just doesn´t fit and it´s a bit over the top. Necromancers being the condition masters fits very well. Mesmers are a bit anoying and quite powerful with condies but maybe we can live with that in pvp. In WvW the condi mesems are OP in small scale combat.

omg do you ppl ever stop screaming for condi nerfs? jesus. how many freakn builds in the meta right now are condi? like… necro.. ok.. warrior? ok… mesmer… .. …. …… ………………………………………… right. 3 out of 9 classes are condi. rest are physical..

how would you like it if all condi players started screaming for physical dmg nerfs cus statistically condi is actually more likely to die than physical?

stop thinking your class and your build should be able to beat any and everything. the meta is like a circle of builds that hold each other up. theres a reason we have some condi classes. we NEED them. otherwise the whole meta will fall apart and the entire balancing of the game would have to be redone.

TLDR; GIT GUD

and also man reading the online forums is so depressing. its like an angry little community of sapphire – ruby players at the end of the season complaining about stuff cus they basically arent any good at pvp at all and just play casually and averagely who get so mad cus someone beat their kitten when they thought they were the best players ever who deserve legendary and the backpiece and 200000 gems from anet. entitled little pricks. git gud, work for the stuff you want.

Conditions already have more than enough counterplay.
Learn how the game works and how exactly classes apply condis before posting how broken it is.

livlaender.8790:

@Lucred…, i wrote about “meta builds” and those 6 i mentioned use power based amus (i didnt wrote anything about runes, nore did i wrote something about the viability about condi speccs of those 6 classes)

and @power warrior being terrible in pvp…tell that obindo

Obindo succumbed to condi crap as well. All i saw him play past few days was typical condi build (at least in matches i played so far).

The condi arguments are the same regurgitated and ignorant arguments over and over and over.

The best thing you can possibly do is practice and hope to get better.

Cynz.9437:

livlaender.8790:

@Lucred…, i wrote about “meta builds” and those 6 i mentioned use power based amus (i didnt wrote anything about runes, nore did i wrote something about the viability about condi speccs of those 6 classes)

and @power warrior being terrible in pvp…tell that obindo

Obindo succumbed to condi crap as well. All i saw him play past few days was typical condi build (at least in matches i played so far).

even if obindo is using condi that still means theres 6 classes using either bunker or physical based builds.. like i said earlier theres only about 3 builds in meta that uses condi lol.

Condi is terrible in sPvP at any reasonable level.

The real toxicity is from ridiculously easy to play marauder/mender builds.

Condi in WvW is an entirely different matter. Dire amulet, duration food etc makes it broken.

Phaeton.9582:

Condi in WvW is an entirely different matter. Dire amulet, duration food etc makes it broken.

In wvw if u soloroam use some cleanse skils food for -time condis on you or resist if yu ahve acces to it.

JDjitsu.7895:

TheDevice.2751:

Every person who defends condi this season plays a condi build. Durrr

There is no sufficient condi cleanse on any class to survive multiple condition bombs.

You shouldn’t survive multiple Power Creep bombs either, and you usually don’t.

I think the main problems are that people don’t know how to manage incoming condi very well. They clear too early or too late, don’t dodge or block the skills that are applying the condi bombs in the first place or are in a bad position you shouldn’t be. If you’re QQing on the forums for a nerf, I really hope you’ve exhausted all your options, studied all the builds/skills that are making your bum hurt, added Purity, Generosity, Cleansing sigils or more clears on your util bar first. Use Hoelbrak or runes like it. Or just know what your “counters” are and pick your battles correctly. BTW, I main power Scrapper. If condi was better, I’d use it. But it’s just not. It’s viable in lower tiers though…Or for a few games here and there. Condi has more ways to counter. Preventing it from being applied/stacked and clearing it if it does get applied to you. Instead of saying Get Gud, L2P ect, I’m saying Practice More.

If you watch ESL, really only Chrono and Berserker are the pro “meta” builds/professions. Though Power Berserker is in a pretty good spot. And Yes, Condi Necro is stronger than Power in Conquest, but Necro isn’t seen even close to as much as last couple seasons. I think a lot of ppl judge what they see in lower tiers is being the “meta”. That’s really not the case.

So much of the condi is unblockable though.
-b-but just dodge it!
With my 2 dodge rolls and maybe 2 movement abilities that provide an evade? That will, more often than not, carry me straight into someone else’s ground-targeted AoE condi (such as necro marks) or direct damage (such as scrapper shock field or mesmer bubble or guard trap or guard sigil)?

99% of power-based attacks are blockable. Only about 20% of condi-based attacks are. And many of them have both a power and a condi element, often not even requiring the power part to hit in order to apply the condi part.

And as to it being “easy enough to remove”, let’s put it this way:
-Take a DH. If you build it entirely around condi clear, you can remove:
-1 condition every 10 seconds (passively) with Signet of Resolve
-3 conditions every 16 seconds with Smite Condition+trait
-6 conditions every 26 seconds with Wings of Resolve+Renewed Focus
So that’s basically 15 conditions you can remove every 30 seconds. And the DH is the undisputed champion of condi clearing.

And that’s a scant fraction of how many condi’s just a necro, who applies a condition (and frequently more than one) with literally everything he does, can put on a person 1v1 who’s actively playing against him. And half of a necro’s attacks (both power-based and condi-based aren’t blockable with a quarter of them not even being dodgeable.

Lucred.1802:

JDjitsu.7895:

TheDevice.2751:

Every person who defends condi this season plays a condi build. Durrr

There is no sufficient condi cleanse on any class to survive multiple condition bombs.

You shouldn’t survive multiple Power Creep bombs either, and you usually don’t.

I think the main problems are that people don’t know how to manage incoming condi very well. They clear too early or too late, don’t dodge or block the skills that are applying the condi bombs in the first place or are in a bad position you shouldn’t be. If you’re QQing on the forums for a nerf, I really hope you’ve exhausted all your options, studied all the builds/skills that are making your bum hurt, added Purity, Generosity, Cleansing sigils or more clears on your util bar first. Use Hoelbrak or runes like it. Or just know what your “counters” are and pick your battles correctly. BTW, I main power Scrapper. If condi was better, I’d use it. But it’s just not. It’s viable in lower tiers though…Or for a few games here and there. Condi has more ways to counter. Preventing it from being applied/stacked and clearing it if it does get applied to you. Instead of saying Get Gud, L2P ect, I’m saying Practice More.

If you watch ESL, really only Chrono and Berserker are the pro “meta” builds/professions. Though Power Berserker is in a pretty good spot. And Yes, Condi Necro is stronger than Power in Conquest, but Necro isn’t seen even close to as much as last couple seasons. I think a lot of ppl judge what they see in lower tiers is being the “meta”. That’s really not the case.

So much of the condi is unblockable though.
-b-but just dodge it!
With my 2 dodge rolls and maybe 2 movement abilities that provide an evade? That will, more often than not, carry me straight into someone else’s ground-targeted AoE condi (such as necro marks) or direct damage (such as scrapper shock field or mesmer bubble or guard trap or guard sigil)?

99% of power-based attacks are blockable. Only about 20% of condi-based attacks are. And many of them have both a power and a condi element, often not even requiring the power part to hit in order to apply the condi part.

And as to it being “easy enough to remove”, let’s put it this way:
-Take a DH. If you build it entirely around condi clear, you can remove:
-1 condition every 10 seconds (passively) with Signet of Resolve
-3 conditions every 16 seconds with Smite Condition+trait
-6 conditions every 26 seconds with Wings of Resolve+Renewed Focus
So that’s basically 15 conditions you can remove every 30 seconds. And the DH is the undisputed champion of condi clearing.

And that’s a scant fraction of how many condi’s just a necro, who applies a condition (and frequently more than one) with literally everything he does, can put on a person 1v1 who’s actively playing against him. And half of a necro’s attacks (both power-based and condi-based aren’t blockable with a quarter of them not even being dodgeable.

79.5% of all power attacks are unblockable.

Sound stupid does it not? Cause it is just like everything you wrote.
Do you play a different game or something? You want all classes to have enough cleanse so a condi spec never gets one tick of damage on you?

Condi attacka are unblockable?? Name one!!! Name one pure condi attack that is unblockable.

Jesus. I maybe see one condi class in most matches an you call it op.

[quote=6293524;Milan.9035:]

@Lucred – the biggest contenders for unblockable condi attacks are Necro staff marks, which you have to trait for… and they’re not even that dangerous. There’s plenty of power attacks which can be unblockable as well. The unblockable argument is just… silly. Imo, you NEED unblockable attacks when you have classes that block all the time. A DH can block for 10 secs or more with F3 and its other blocks, which would be WAYYYYYYYY over the top if you didn’t have counter play. Not to mention they get condi clears when they’re blocking, so if a Necro’kittenting you with unblockables in a team fight, the other enemies hitting you will cleanse it right off because block – condi clear. /shrug

1) Learn how different condi classes work and their burst – save your cleanse for their burst and you’re safe.
2) If you have trouble against Necros as a DH… then something is wrong xD Dragonhunters are excellent against condition classes, especially Necros. DHs have 100000 CC-s and Necro has barely any stab. DHs deal massive damage in melee, as well as range. If a Necro has to come into melee range with Reaper Shroud, they’re kittened. If they try to kite with range, they’re kittened (not really kittened, just putting things into perspective and showing that you, as a DH should have every upper hand when fighting Necros because you have range damage, massive melee damage, LOTS of CCs when Necro has almost no stab, and you got blocks -condi clears and massive heals).

Milan.9035:

Lucred.1802:

JDjitsu.7895:

TheDevice.2751:

Every person who defends condi this season plays a condi build. Durrr

There is no sufficient condi cleanse on any class to survive multiple condition bombs.

You shouldn’t survive multiple Power Creep bombs either, and you usually don’t.

I think the main problems are that people don’t know how to manage incoming condi very well. They clear too early or too late, don’t dodge or block the skills that are applying the condi bombs in the first place or are in a bad position you shouldn’t be. If you’re QQing on the forums for a nerf, I really hope you’ve exhausted all your options, studied all the builds/skills that are making your bum hurt, added Purity, Generosity, Cleansing sigils or more clears on your util bar first. Use Hoelbrak or runes like it. Or just know what your “counters” are and pick your battles correctly. BTW, I main power Scrapper. If condi was better, I’d use it. But it’s just not. It’s viable in lower tiers though…Or for a few games here and there. Condi has more ways to counter. Preventing it from being applied/stacked and clearing it if it does get applied to you. Instead of saying Get Gud, L2P ect, I’m saying Practice More.

If you watch ESL, really only Chrono and Berserker are the pro “meta” builds/professions. Though Power Berserker is in a pretty good spot. And Yes, Condi Necro is stronger than Power in Conquest, but Necro isn’t seen even close to as much as last couple seasons. I think a lot of ppl judge what they see in lower tiers is being the “meta”. That’s really not the case.

So much of the condi is unblockable though.
-b-but just dodge it!
With my 2 dodge rolls and maybe 2 movement abilities that provide an evade? That will, more often than not, carry me straight into someone else’s ground-targeted AoE condi (such as necro marks) or direct damage (such as scrapper shock field or mesmer bubble or guard trap or guard sigil)?

99% of power-based attacks are blockable. Only about 20% of condi-based attacks are. And many of them have both a power and a condi element, often not even requiring the power part to hit in order to apply the condi part.

And as to it being “easy enough to remove”, let’s put it this way:
-Take a DH. If you build it entirely around condi clear, you can remove:
-1 condition every 10 seconds (passively) with Signet of Resolve
-3 conditions every 16 seconds with Smite Condition+trait
-6 conditions every 26 seconds with Wings of Resolve+Renewed Focus
So that’s basically 15 conditions you can remove every 30 seconds. And the DH is the undisputed champion of condi clearing.

And that’s a scant fraction of how many condi’s just a necro, who applies a condition (and frequently more than one) with literally everything he does, can put on a person 1v1 who’s actively playing against him. And half of a necro’s attacks (both power-based and condi-based aren’t blockable with a quarter of them not even being dodgeable.

79.5% of all power attacks are unblockable.

Sound stupid does it not? Cause it is just like everything you wrote.
Do you play a different game or something? You want all classes to have enough cleanse so a condi spec never gets one tick of damage on you?

Condi attacka are unblockable?? Name one!!! Name one pure condi attack that is unblockable.

Jesus. I maybe see one condi class in most matches an you call it op.

this guy gets it.

For direct dmg and cc we have dodge, protection, evades, block, stability…

For conditions we should get more resistance, protection(giving 30% less condi dmg), …

Ragnarox.9601:

For direct dmg and cc we have dodge, protection, evades, block, stability…

For conditions we should get more resistance, protection(giving 30% less condi dmg), …

This sort of argument is unbelievably short sighted and gets thrown around like candy at a chubby kid’s birthday party.

Power attacks have a TON of damage modifiers from traits and runes. Let’s take Rev for example. You get 2% damage per boon on you. This means that with just 5 boons, the Rev deals 10% more damage. Invocation gives you 7% more damage when you have Fury. Vicious Lacerations from Devastation can give you 10% more damage. Targeted Destruction gives you 7% more damage against foes with vuln. Assassin’s Presence gives you 150 ferocity —> 10% crit damage. That right there is 10 + 7 + 10 +7 = 34% more damage dealt to enemies, which is INSANE and completely overcomes protection. And if the enemy has no protection, they’re kittened. Now add Swift Termination, which is 20% more damage when enemy is below 50% and let’s also add 5% from strength runes. That adds up to 59% more damage. “Yeah but protection and weakness.” Yeah, but 59% MORE damage from modifiers, and this doesn’t even include how much your damage increases from Might (which revs stack with ease) and Vulnerability, which you can also stack nicely.
So protection and weakness are absolutely neccessary for power builds because they have so much % increase in damage. Otherwise power damage would without a doubt be out of control. What about condi builds? Do they have any kind of damage modifiers what-so-ever? No. 0. Nada. None. Null. All they have is might and vuln, which has pretty kittenty scaling with condis anyway.

Whenever you bring up power damage “having more counters”, educate yourself first. kthxbai.

Here is the official link on damage: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

Condition damage is an alternate way of killing your opponent. It does not critical, has to hit and be stacked, doing damage over time (per stack/per second) not instantaneously(contra condi is spam). You can dodge it, cleanse it both actively and passively, block it, cause it to miss by blind, reduce its duration and even heal (healing/regen) damage received by it. All of this is by design to have alternate ways of playing and build diversity.

Again, someone may say “but it bypasses armor/toughness, therefore it is not fair.” That is true, but adding vitality has always been another way to mitigate condition damage (contra toughness argument). More to the point, in all fairness if we get more ways to deal with conditions, then it would be fair to get more ways to mitigate direct damage as well; there are no “cleanses” for direct damage which is both immediate and greater in magnitude (it can be augmented by precision and ferocity and it does not stack – contra power “needs” precision/ferocity, or 1 stat only argument).

Truth be known, I don’t like getting crit for 5-7k or more sometimes, but that’s the nature of power builds so I can either QQ or learn to deal with it by altering my build and play level/style.

The way I, personally feel about the whole thing is that condition damage itself is manageable, the problem appears when you end up in a match against 3 reapers and 2 condi warriors on the other team. That scenario isn’t that uncommon nowadays, just because playing those builds is so easy.

Absurd.2947:

The way I, personally feel about the whole thing is that condition damage itself is manageable, the problem appears when you end up in a match against 3 reapers and 2 condi warriors on the other team. That scenario isn’t that uncommon nowadays, just because playing those builds is so easy.

So its a problem fighting two condi users cause you cant mitigate all the damage and die but its not a problem fighting two power users and ….again not being able to mitigate the damage and die.

Power damage doesn’t tick for a few thousand when you’re evading or blocking. I don’t mean to act like a smart kitten , it’s just how I feel about the whole thing.

Absurd.2947:

Power damage doesn’t tick for a few thousand when you’re evading or blocking. I don’t mean to act like a smart kitten , it’s just how I feel about the whole thing.

Yeah but did you get hit though? Thats the point!
If you evaded or blocked the hit you wouldn’t be taking any ticking damage…

If you start blocking after being hit by a 5k eviscerate you don’t expect to suddenly not to take any damage from the hit by the 5k eviscerate do you?

You have taken the hit, you are taking the damage be it instant or taking the next 4s to do its damage…

Absurd.2947:

Power damage doesn’t tick for a few thousand when you’re evading or blocking. I don’t mean to act like a smart kitten , it’s just how I feel about the whole thing.

That is true, but you can get hit for 5-7k (possibly more) immediately in 1 hit with direct damage. Getting 5k in condition damage per tick? Here is a condition damage calculator (not sure how up to date it is, but it will give you a good idea of both how many stacks you would have to have and the number of damaging conditions you would need to get that high:

http://gw2.hazno.net/

My condi/shatter Mesmer has a condi damage rating of 1526(plus sigil of bursting for another 6%). According to the damage calculator I do:

Bleeding
per stack/ per second 119

Burning
710

Confusion
(On skill use – half if not using a skill)
per stack/per second 179

Torment (double if moving)
per stack/per second (approx.) 85

Total: 1153 (1222 with sigil of bursting) if all of these damaging conditions are applied at once then the this is the approximate damage I would do per stack/per second. This is assuming I could get all this to hit, subsequently to stick and then you have to stack – this would result in condi nirvana for a condi/shatter Mesmer to have all these damaging conditions applied and have multiple stacks. Any part that gets cleansed, dodged, blocked, healed etc. than I have to start the process all over again. Condition damage users have a totally different kind of gameplay to kill someone with conditions.