Guild Wars 2

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/34hf215.jpg[/IMG]

I’m not saying thieves shouldn’t have great spike damage, but with absolutely crazy mobility, stealth, and 1 hit KOs, I think we have a problem.

No build should be able to instagib another this easily.

Not to mention backstab does not require initiative to use.

Glassy thieves are the best class to go glass with because they aren’t glass at all.

I trust Anet to properly balance this build. If they feel it is already balanced: then so be it. If you BSers think it is already balanced then you have nothing to fear in terms of nerfs. I’m just voicing my opinion

That is one spec, not the entire class. Stop making it out like every single Thief is Backstab speced.

The problem is the 150% damage on next hit sigil and the fact that you can cloak and dagger then interrupt it with steal and teleport instantly to them landing your c&d and instantly going into stealth for the 150% damage Backstab.

“Stop making it out like every single Thief is Backstab speced.”

I’m sorry. I meant to point out this build specifically. I’ll edit that.

sPvP including tPvP is unplayable as it is now. Extremes of excessive burst damage on one hand and bunker builds on the other, multiple stuns on a short cooldown, knockdowns, protracted dying process, tons of pets etc This is a very raw and poorly designed milieu that is perhaps fitting for a young game, but is broken as it is now. I was lured by the promise, but get more and more frustrated by what it is as opposed to what it should have been. I don’t mind dying, but I hate being stunned and knocked back or suddenly being jumped on from out of nowhere, killed in an instant while unable to move, and then slowly finished off. Just let us kill or die and respawn back, why do we have to be paralyzed.

I agree ackin. All it takes is a couple guardians/warriors for back to back cc for a good 10 seconds. I actually find it quite ironic that bunker guardians are WORSE in some ways than the generic tank in the holy trinity in that they are brick walls AND they have ridiculous cc ability.

Or maybe is it the other way around ?

/boggle

I wouldn’t mind them having super high damage and burst, if they didn’t have 25 stealth/teleports/escape mechanisms. They are the highest damaging class also probably the hardest class to kill.

Do you remember in wow when Rogues use to be OP in the beginning. What happened towards the end? Yep eventually it will happen, the question is when.

The problem is the risk/reward ratio being immensely skewed with that build. Whether they’re aware of it or not, it’s why so many run it in tPvP. You can get away with being a glass cannon while having a ton of tertiary survivability through traits/skills making it a catch 22.

Forget your “it takes skill to pull off”.
Forget your “get more toughness” BS.
Forget your “use more situational awareness”.

It isn’t on par at all with other glass cannon builds. Yeah, Thief specializes in burst hit/run, but no other class or build comes remotely close, which totally screws over the “lack of a holy trinity” this game espouses.

i have 2400 toughness on my engi and im still getting hit for 6k cloak and dagger what kind of kitten bullkitten is this

Uninstall is the answer. I kinda wish this game had a sub. With a one-time purchase, there is nothing we can do to punish Anet for broken pvp. Makes me think WoW was not so bad after all.

I think the damage applied from “Mug” should be reduced, and assassin’s signet should be toned down or have its functionality changed which is used as a buff of 150% + next attack. Backstab is fine where it stands. As full glass cannon 30 power 30 critical strikes you would do 10k damage at most on light armor target with base armor with these changes. I say Backstab on its own is fine because it cannot be spammed. It has a 3 second debuff called “Reveal” which prevents you from stealthing again immediately. Even if a thief stealths 4-5 seconds after the first initial backstab attack if his opponent rolls backwards(rolls- even better) the damage is cut in half. If opponent has more than base armor damage decreased even more. What gets me most of the time when I go D/D as a thief is snare(cc). I agree steal+assassins signet(+150% damage on next attack) + plus backstab is a bit too powerful. Fixing mug and the signet would fix the problem.

thieves will be balanced for sure. they can’t let this kitten keep up for much longer. i mean if two of these thieves are training you with their heartseeker spam or backstab or whatever they spam, then you have absolutely no chance. situations like this need to be eliminated from the game. there is still alot of balancing to be done.

Yep, this stuff right here, along with mesmers…has made me quit playing the game entirely. Even when you spec somewhat balanced, it still happens. Because right after that, even if you add in some toughness, you’re at 20% health, the thief is still stealthed due to whatever (intended, rendering issue, who cares), and then he’s got FULL INITIATIVE and spams 2 on you. ALL THE WHILE YOU’RE IMMOBILIZED FROM VENOM.

Balanced, I think not.

Yep, I quit wow for this…and am stuck playing p4f games to pass the time instead of this unbalanced thing anet is calling gw2.

And the devs claim balance is great. Balance is anything but great…and until they admit that, I’m not returning. Explain how I can play on my thief and literally never lose a 1v1, never die, DESTROY people left and right, or my mesmer, or my warrior…yet on my necro or ele with > 250 hours of play time and I can’t fight my way out of a paper bag (unless spec’d purely defensive/healing on my ele, but that’s another story).

im totally agree with you deapee
and this game need an urgent FIX to balance the PvP…
I have so many hours playing with my Engineer in pvp, and i dont know yet how to win a Mesmer or Necromancer in 1v1 (Thief is more easy for me, because is on me at melee, but i have a low chance to win)

1) if you l2p then this problem lessens / goes away. So anet doesnt see it as a big problem, as its already balanced for higher level play.

2) it really is a problem though. They say their eye is on support elementalists, the tanky support build is the only one that isnt 1 shot by this. Burst builds like this force balance builds out of existence. So while these types of bursts can be overcome at high level play, they are still impacting high level play by limiting build selection.

Try a different tactic than “Jesus”.

But yeah, the problem is that Thieves can stack a huge number of effects to frontload their Backstabs. We’re talking 150% Singet + 6-14 addittional stacks of Might

That’s the real problem.

In regular PvE a non-critical Backstab might not hit for more than 3k.

8v8? no thanks.

In regular PvE a non-critical Backstab might not hit for more than 3k.

in regular tpvp, a cannon glass thief is useless, a balanced thief crit for less than 6k. hf ruining thief class.

Turbo Whale.1738:

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/34hf215.jpg[/IMG]

I’m not saying thieves shouldn’t have great spike damage, but with absolutely crazy mobility, stealth, and 1 hit KOs, I think we have a problem.

ahh the fabled 30/30/30/30/30 thief. but seriously, this thief has limited stealth and mobility compared to other thieves as he/she sacrafices everything for that damage. i agree tho its over the top. whats funny is if you just took out assassins signet that 15k backstab would go to 10k

[quoet] Not to mention backstab does not require initiative to use.[/quote]

no but stealth typically does require initiative, or to blow a CD, then we have to get into melee range behind the target. i think its fair that backstab does high damage, tho again this is over the top and needs addressing.

Glassy thieves are the best class to go glass with because they aren’t glass at all.

I trust Anet to properly balance this build. If they feel it is already balanced: then so be it. If you BSers think it is already balanced then you have nothing to fear in terms of nerfs. I’m just voicing my opinion

i think backstab itself is balanced, i think the glass cannon build that does this kind of damage isnt. i run a 10/30/30/0/0 build with 2890 attack and 49% crit. my typical bakcstab crits are about half that (against glass builds)

im totally for this build being nullified, i just think nerfing backstab base damage is a poor way to do it as it will create more problems then it solves.

People just have no idea on how to play pvp and they complain about everything. If you play as a glasscannon (assuming that you know what this means, which you probably don’t since post like this are flooding the forum) you know that you’re going to take massive damage. You have no toughness, no vitality, probably no utility skills for survival. Every class has plenty of skill or traits to remove movement impairing effects, stuns and so on. If you let a thief nuke you for 5 seconds because you simply don’t know how to avoid it, well dude let me tell you, it’s not a thief related problem. On a single, still target i can do 25k damage in 5 seconds probably with every class.
So, don’t stay still!
Imo, and i play thief as well as mesmer, guardian and ranger in sPvP, there is absolutely no need of further nerfing this class. Every class in the game can oneshot (or so) you if you have 1k toughness and 12k hp.

A proper backstab thief can also kill the tankiest of bunkers if they stand still(in 2-3 seconds).

That’s the problem..standing still..
The new profession of the next expansion packwill be the “Noob hunter”. It has only 1 skill, no cost and no cooldown. It takes 3 seconds to cast while you must stand still. After that time, it deals 50k damage.
Reading these posts, i’m afraid it will pwn a lot of people.

I say nerf the scaling on the glass thief.

Balanced thieves are maybe just slightly too good, and the problem isnt their damage.

Glass thieves arent good at all at a high skill level, but they are a problem in spvp. Its not often i recomend a balnce decision for lower tiers of play but this i think warrants it

I do think the game needs more bug fixing and that really we should wait for class balance.

I would agree with Isendel but, just for fun, i’ll quote :
“Imo, and i play thief as well as mesmer, guardian and ranger in sPvP, there is absolutely no need of further nerfing this class.”

Im pretty sure that engie, necro, elem and warriors (other side of the food chain) won’t agree with you

I think its part of true.. It really depends what class/build we play or know how to play/counter.

Yeah, this is one of those times, which happens in pretty much every MMO, where you sit there and wonder “What are they thinking?”

This is very much in line with what went on with WoW a few years back, when they gave low level rogues Shadowstep and Ambush. Level 10-19 PvP battlegrounds basically became you getting 1-shot. Or, in absolutely worst case, 3-shot. Really, regardless of the class. And if memory serves, it went on like this for a very, very long time. Of course by then I was out of WoW for a while, but it’s still worth noting.

And guys, there’s REALLY no need to argue on whether or not this is too much. Form your own opinion on the topic. It’s what ANet thinks, but more importantly what ANet DOES about it, and WHEN, that’s important. If they do nothing, draw your conclusions from that, reroll or move on. Luckily the game doesn’t have a sub, so you can walk away and come back in 6 months and see if things changed.

So… what was your toughness?

Sins in GW1 had the same problem, and ended up deevolving into cruddy Warriors over time.

You just don’t put Assassin characters into PvP games. They’re predicated on killing people unfairly, or so quickly it forces everyone to treat them like mini-bosses.

You just don’t put Assassin characters into PvP games. They’re predicated on killing people unfairly, or so quickly it forces everyone to treat them like mini-bosses.

I think they’re aware of that – which is why they named the class Thief and not Assassin. They just screwed up on the implementation. The class should be about tricks, stealth, evasion, acrobatics. Not brutal out-the-wazoo damage that melts things in under 2 seconds.

Turbo Whale.1738:

“Stop making it out like every single Thief is Backstab speced.”

I’m sorry. I meant to point out this build specifically. I’ll edit that.

You don’t even need to edit it because thieves damage as a whole is to high the whole class with get a 10 to 15 % damage nerf across the board. Backstab is just the largest glaring problem………..

even if they need to make them 10 to 20% tankier i would be cool with that because the game needs to have longer fights vs thieves for this to be an…… lol …. e-Sport?

So… what was your toughness?

It doesn’t matter. let’s assume it was 1100…even at 1700 (on the high end of a balanced build), he’d be dead if he had anything less than 22k health which is nearly unattainable on some classes. And if he did have that much health, or more, he’d still be at most 20% health…and the thief would have an almost full initiative bar…Don’t forget, that cloak and dagger cost 6 initiative of 13 but returned 3 for gaining stealth.

It’s broken, anyone who says otherwise plays a thief and actually thinks they’re good.

Lilbeezy.8134:

Turbo Whale.1738:

“Stop making it out like every single Thief is Backstab speced.”

I’m sorry. I meant to point out this build specifically. I’ll edit that.

You don’t even need to edit it because thieves damage as a whole is to high the whole class with get a 10 to 15 % damage nerf across the board. Backstab is just the largest glaring problem………..

even if they need to make them 10 to 20% tankier i would be cool with that because the game needs to have longer fights vs thieves for this to be an…… lol …. e-Sport?

Err no. Thief damage is not too high across the board. Quickness burst builds are the problem.

Everyone has their own idea…quickness is the problem. 150% crit is the problem. venoms are the problem. frenzy is the problem. At least it’s agreed upon there is a problem — now why are the devs saying everything is all good in the hood?

deapee;

Actually, it matters a lot. Toughness makes each hit do less damage.

Actually, it matters a lot. Toughness makes each hit do less damage.

You didn’t read anything in my post but the first sentence…so I’ll quote it for you so that you can have another chance at that reading comprehension thing…

It doesn’t matter. let’s assume it was 1100…even at 1700 (on the high end of a balanced build), he’d be dead if he had anything less than 22k health which is nearly unattainable on some classes. And if he did have that much health, or more, he’d still be at most 20% health…and the thief would have an almost full initiative bar…Don’t forget, that cloak and dagger cost 6 initiative of 13 but returned 3 for gaining stealth.

It’s broken, anyone who says otherwise plays a thief and actually thinks they’re good.

So after that short opener (the thief is still in stealth, mind you), he has full initiative so spam 2.

Don’t pretend you’ve never tried a thief with a power build…you know you can one shot anyone like that with maybe a few presses of 2 after the opener…and still have enough initiative left over to make your way across the map after swapping to your bow and pressing 5 a couple of times.

Sabbathius.1465:

You just don’t put Assassin characters into PvP games. They’re predicated on killing people unfairly, or so quickly it forces everyone to treat them like mini-bosses.

I think they’re aware of that – which is why they named the class Thief and not Assassin. They just screwed up on the implementation. The class should be about tricks, stealth, evasion, acrobatics. Not brutal out-the-wazoo damage that melts things in under 2 seconds.

They are aware but apparently clueless, I remember that this was allegedly going to be the game that did thieves/assaisins/rogues/burglars (or whatever you wish to call them) right and avoid the mistakes of other games, that lead to a class that is permanently swinging between UP an OP, because the basic premise is flawed.

But guess what, all they did was remove permastealth, everything else – huge burst, stealth (in particular burst from stealth), escapability, etc is the same old flawed unbalanceable design you get in most other games (though at least in some othe games there is a high skill cap on rogue type classes, burglars in LOTRO for instance) .

It also makes a mockery of their short CC approach, there is no point in short CC if a class can do so much damage in a short perod of time, that is in effect no different from games that have longer CC duration (but higher time to kill).

Then on top of that you have the issue of people not being rendered immediately upon unstealthing.

Whilst I was working this morning I was watching someone on Twitch in the background, I heard this shriek looked at the stream, the guy was mucking about in a hotjoin and the raised voice was for the “10 fricking thieves”, which says it all.

No wonder this game has gone from top 3 on Twitch down to about 20 in the short time it has been out.

Well, I guess I’m the only one who has no problem with thieves backstab despite playing glass.

The Twitch fall makes me sad.

Zid.4196:

Well, I guess I’m the only one who has no problem with thieves backstab despite playing glass.

The Twitch fall makes me sad.

A backstab thief will kill you before you react, if you are a glass cannon.

In forum theory.

In practice, they are not a problem. I die less to backstabs than I die to 100b when all my cds are down, and I barely ever die to 100b.

Maybe Im luckier at the pairings than most, but I think it has to do with better positioning. A lot of people really drop the ball at positioning and then blame backstab or moa or whatever, but the fact of matter is they should not have been there at the first place.

Problem 1: C&D interrupted by Steal (teleports you directly to your target and then you immediately hit them with C&D and stealth, which sets you up for problem 2)

Problem 2: Assassination Signet (150% damage on next attack) – Sorry, but this is too easy to abuse with Backstab and gives us Thieves a bad name.

Problem 3: Quickness effects (and this is across all classes, not just Thief) They are counter productive to balanced PvP and make it so classes that have them will end up completely balanced around them. I’m sorry, but I would much rather see Haste removed so my class can be balanced normally and not having to take Haste into consideration every time they make any changes.

Ashanor.5319:

Problem 1: C&D interrupted by Steal (teleports you directly to your target and then you immediately hit them with C&D and stealth, which sets you up for problem 2)

Problem 2: Assassination Signet (150% damage on next attack) – Sorry, but this is too easy to abuse with Backstab and gives us Thieves a bad name.

Problem 3: Quickness effects (and this is across all classes, not just Thief) They are counter productive to balanced PvP and make it so classes that have them will end up completely balanced around them. I’m sorry, but I would much rather see Haste removed so my class can be balanced normally and not having to take Haste into consideration every time they make any changes.

Two things.

1) You are forgetting about the massive stacks of Might the thief during steps 1 and 2.
2) I personally like quickness when it is very small and trait or % proc based. I do not like it when it is an on-demand utility. Either way, I don’t think it should be outright removed from the game.

You know what the best feeling in the world is when you’re playing PvP in this game?

Imagine, you’re doing a 1 v 1 against another player, say a Warrior against a Ranger, whatever. You’re both going back and forth, you’re both down to around 10k – 13k HP, when, all of a sudden, you’re downed. You’re like, “WTF did this Ranger do?” And then, a Thief comes out of Stealth in mid air as he’s stomping you. And you die a little more inside.

Two things.
1) You are forgetting about the massive stacks of Might the thief during steps 1 and 2.
2) I personally like quickness when it is very small and trait or % proc based. I do not like it when it is an on-demand utility. Either way, I don’t think it should be outright removed from the game.

I didn’t forget about it, I just don’t see it as a major factor. It wouldn’t be a problem if not for the other stuff.

I’m not a fan of quickness procs or the quickness proc traits, personally. On demand quickness is worse of course. I would like to see all of them removed but would be satisfied if they all just had the Warrior penalty or worse (maybe triple damage).

shalmont.2539:

jesus christ will you baddies stop complaining? oh my god.

when did the forums become a place to cry about it every time you get killed by x or y class……. lord have mercy on these kids.

Actually, I am a Thief myself. I just recognize issues with the game that should be addressed.

let me guess you are a glass canon that got glass canon’d?

Actually, it matters a lot. Toughness makes each hit do less damage.

It actually doesn’t matter too much. I occasionally play staff ele with roughly 1800 toughness and c&d/backstab will still drop me in seconds if I don’t avoid it in some way.

This isn’t to say that there’s no way to counter it, there definitely is – toughness just isn’t really one of the counters and I wish people would stop claiming that it is. You have to -

1. Dodge the steal.
2. If you get hit by steal, instantly break basilisk venom.
3. If you get hit by steal and have no stun break, you better hope you have some kinda of insta-cast damage absorb.

If you can’t do any of the above, chances are you’re dead regardless of toughness UNLESS you have a very high health pool as well – which is uncommon for the typical bunker classes.

Merciless.5349:

You know what the best feeling in the world is when you’re playing PvP in this game?

Imagine, you’re doing a 1 v 1 against another player, say a Warrior against a Ranger, whatever. You’re both going back and forth, you’re both down to around 10k – 13k HP, when, all of a sudden, you’re downed. You’re like, “WTF did this Ranger do?” And then, a Thief comes out of Stealth in mid air as he’s stomping you. And you die a little more inside.

is it tournament or 8v8?
questions:
why are you doing 1v1?
are you on a node or fighting random in the map?

i can’t understand, you were distracted, a thief came and killed you…he helped a teammate. is it wrong? do you know how much utility has a thief in tournament when he is not killing someone? no utility.
this game is for teamplay, if you want to play 1v1 you should change game.

As a Theif I counter this using LOLsmokescreen

Why cant you guys dodge roll? Steal has a range of 900, 1200 if its traited. Its a one trick pony…why you fall for such things? Why? Whyyyyy?

Forums seem broken again.

Player: Nerf Thief, he bursted me down in seconds and i couldnt even see him cause of stealth.

Thief: Thats your fault, stack Toughness.

Player: Done, i still die in the blink of an eye.

Thief: no no, you need to stack Toughness AND Vitality. Or it wont work.

Player: Okay, got that. But i still die near instantly. Time for a nerf?

Thief: Never, Thief is fine. You should pick defensive skills.

Player: I am now using defensive skills, i still die really really fast.

Thief: Look, its your own fault for not playing a Bunker-build

Player: Hey thanks, im now playing full Bunker and i dont die in a flash anymore.

Thief: ZOMFG bunkerbuilds are ruining pvp! NERF!

My example, which I can not quote, is a typical scenario that everyone has seen or experienced.

Any dmg over 10k is just too much. If they want to keep it that way, and you want to keep doing your gimmicky kitten and think you’re uber cool and awesome at this game, then double our Toughness and Vitality.

Your questions are pointless, Shukran.

If I had 50k HP, your little circus show wouldn’t be as bad.