Guild Wars 2

When I myself or other offer up criticism on on the Mug, Cnd, Backstab combo the topic gets flooded with replies like "L2P, or “You must be a noob if you die to this combo” or my favorite “You just need to dodge!”

This 22, 424 Damage happens all with in a sec and I didn’t even do it as well as I could of.

I’m fine with the damage, and I am even fine with the combo but what needs to hapkitten the damage needs to be spread out a little farther apart than just simply 1 sec which leaves you zero chance to react.

Even if you are one of those rare people who saw what was going to happen and was able to react that is why I am packing Basilisk Venom and the Immobilize one.

Hot join footage is really representative of balance. It was actually more like 2.x seconds as well.

What isn’t shown by this video, for the next 45seconds to a minute the thief will die if a strong breeze picks up and does not pack anything near the punch of their initial burst.

In 1 on 1s against backstab thieves it comes down to how well do you react to their burst and apply your counter burst. In my encounters with them, one of us is normally dead in under 10 seconds and while I don’t keep statistics I would say that the score in these 1 on 1s is in my favor. Backstab thieves shine in small engagements of 1v1 and start to lose value at about the 3v3 level.

In 4v4 and 5v5 fights I think that backstab builds are a liability to their team. I have seen numerous times where a backstab thief pops stealth at near full life and by the time it fades they have dropped to incidental AE damage, which normally gets a couple chuckles from my teammates.

Backstab thief has a very low skill requirement to play effectively against inexperienced, low quality competition. However, against a good team, backstab thieves are one of the more difficult specs to play effectively. There would not be nearly as much crying about thieves if all the maps were 5v5 and thieves couldn’t hide behind a zerg of allies when their abilities are on CD.

I play engineer.

U should watch again more closly Seether. :P
He needs 1.5 sec to reach the enemy at 25% hp
And even then the enemy is still stunned (grey color) :P

Edit: Experience vs Burst+Stun+Imobilize , doesnt help much :P

To add to Seether’s point – GL getting a stomp off as glass cannon thief. I’ve been dropped a number of times by a glass cannon (4 times in 1 foefire, thanks to their teams 3 glass cannon thieves!) – guess how many times I got stomped?

Why that’s right, 0. One of my teammates would glance in the glass cannon’s direction, and he instantly ran away. He knew he didn’t have a ghost of a chance of getting the stomp off before he got mauled, and he was out of tricks (having blown them all to drop me). I got revived and went back to work. To recap, their thief was now useless for 45s-1m, I was out of the fight for 6-8 seconds.

And? The video still doesn’t show anything of value. The mesmer is obviously a very bad player (runs right next to a thief, uses no breaks) and probably using berserker’s amulet, meaning he is close to as squishy as you can be in this game, being a scholar class with no additional toughness.

What I found interesting in the video was the 2 hits from the mesmer’s rockdog did 4k damage, which is about 25% of the thiefs total hp pool.

Agaian look on the video …
His stunned (grey) + have the imobilize mark
Stun breaker doesnt remove imobilize

Do u find acceptible a class to do such a high damage ?

Lol at people trying to argue that this is balanced or should be present in a game trying to be an MMO-RPG E-sport, are you seriously serious? Or just clueless?

There it is:

“Obviously the Mesmer is a Very bad player” -Seether

….lol, Your killing me.

Doesn’t matter if he was a good player or a bad player (He was actually decent) there is absolutely nothing he could of done to stop the combo. That is the point of the thread. The damage shouldn’t be “unavoidable” it needs spread out to allow the victim a little time to react.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Agaian look on the video …
His stunned (grey) + have the imobilize mark
Stun breaker doesnt remove imobilize

Do u find acceptible a class to do such a high damage ?

The reason the damage is high is because his target is one of the glassiest targets you can create in the game. Most mesmers run blink, which would have negated both the stun and moved him out of the thief’s burst. But you are looking at the wrong part anyway, the mesmers main mistake was when he just ran straight by the thief.

I don’t even think the guy needed to pan his camera to see the thief, I’m pretty sure he saw him and just kept on running. I can’t be 100% certain but I see the mesmer using a sword and what is likely a pistol, which is a pretty common mesmer combo. If the mesmer was an aware person and saw a thief lurking for a burst, he could have used pistol 5 to stun, pistol 4 to get up a duelist, and then use blurred frenzy to stop the thief from initiating burst. I don’t even play mesmer but I know that this guy could have done.

The thief landing his burst in this fashion is the culmination of several mistakes by the mesmer and the thief executing his damage rotation. Stopping the damage rotation from happening on the thief’s terms is just as important as evading/escaping their burst mid combo.

Carrioncrow.6872:

There it is:

“Obviously the Mesmer is a Very bad player” -Seether

….lol, Your killing me.

Doesn’t matter if he was a good player or a bad player (He was actually decent) there is absolutely nothing he could of done to stop the combo. That is the point of the thread.

Sorry, most players in TPvP are not even “decent”, I highly doubt this mesmer that got melted in hot join is decent.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Stun breaker doesnt remove imobilize

Yes, it does.

Seether.7285:

Carrioncrow.6872:

There it is:

“Obviously the Mesmer is a Very bad player” -Seether

….lol, Your killing me.

Doesn’t matter if he was a good player or a bad player (He was actually decent) there is absolutely nothing he could of done to stop the combo. That is the point of the thread.

Sorry, most players in TPvP are not even “decent”, I highly doubt this mesmer that got melted in hot join is decent.

He could be the best kitten player in the world and there was still not a single thing he could of done to avoid the 22k damage once I hit my Steal Ability. That is the point of the thread.

As a Thief the only thing I have to worry about landing is “Steal” to trigger the chain. Steal goes off, 22k damage follows.

Carrion, read my long post a few posts up, I outlined what he could have done differently to avoid it.

Carrioncrow.6872:

Seether.7285:

Carrioncrow.6872:

There it is:

“Obviously the Mesmer is a Very bad player” -Seether

….lol, Your killing me.

Doesn’t matter if he was a good player or a bad player (He was actually decent) there is absolutely nothing he could of done to stop the combo. That is the point of the thread.

Sorry, most players in TPvP are not even “decent”, I highly doubt this mesmer that got melted in hot join is decent.

He could be the best kitten player in the world and there was still not a single thing he could of done to avoid the 22k damage. That is the point of the thread.

Just out of curiosity, what would he have done against a Bola -> frenzy -> bullsrush-> HB’s warrior? By your argument, that’s broken too.

edit: Oh, and just a sidenote – the frenzy isn’t required with how squishy that mes was.

evilapprentice.6379:

Just out of curiosity, what would he have done against a Bola -> frenzy -> bullsrush-> HB’s warrior? By your argument, that’s broken too.

edit: Oh, and just a sidenote – the frenzy isn’t required with how squishy that mes was.

When we see the warrior pop frenzy , we are ready to dodge
We can <<see the bull rush>> animation and dodge
By having a player that istantly teeports + stealth + have a 10k free attack , aint gonna happen

I saw.

There are some fast people out there, but nobody is “That Fast”

Mug and CnD hit instantly for 11k dmg followed by a nearly instant backstab.

Yeah he could run away from the fight, or never fight to begin with or try and switch targets to me instead of chasing the hurt player. All I have to worry about landing is the “Steal” that’s it.

The argument is Frenzy- BR – HB, all of that takes time. Even with frenzy up it still takes time, time that you have to react and get out of the situation. This combo takes just hitting the steal.

Seether.7285:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Agaian look on the video …
His stunned (grey) + have the imobilize mark
Stun breaker doesnt remove imobilize

Do u find acceptible a class to do such a high damage ?

The reason the damage is high is because his target is one of the glassiest targets you can create in the game. Most mesmers run blink, which would have negated both the stun and moved him out of the thief’s burst. But you are looking at the wrong part anyway, the mesmers main mistake was when he just ran straight by the thief.

I don’t even think the guy needed to pan his camera to see the thief, I’m pretty sure he saw him and just kept on running. I can’t be 100% certain but I see the mesmer using a sword and what is likely a pistol, which is a pretty common mesmer combo. If the mesmer was an aware person and saw a thief lurking for a burst, he could have used pistol 5 to stun, pistol 4 to get up a duelist, and then use blurred frenzy to stop the thief from initiating burst. I don’t even play mesmer but I know that this guy could have done.

The thief landing his burst in this fashion is the culmination of several mistakes by the mesmer and the thief executing his damage rotation. Stopping the damage rotation from happening on the thief’s terms is just as important as evading/escaping their burst mid combo.

Glassy is cool
Dps down an enemy in 2 sec , is not acceptable

About the 5 + dualist
Pop aoe stealth or heal-stealth reset the fight
Agaian dead mesmer

I’m actually amazed that thieves are trying to defend this. You literally did a pve rotation and owned him.

Yeah, and if he had used the combo I said, you would have started stunned and then he would have been invulnerable for 3 seconds when you tried to initiate your burst. His rock dog did 25% of your life while the Mesmer was asleep at the wheel. If he had rock dog + i duelist up for 3 seconds before he took any damage, you would have to run.

Even if he just randomly dodged when you were near him he would have a chance of mitigating some of the burst.

Using a completely oblivious player to prove a point regarding balance completely invalidates any point you were trying to make. Go back to the drawing board.

How many times a Thief can go in stealth ?
Dagger/Dagger 5th attack = no cd = 6 points cost = stealth
Stealth = no attack by pets
Stealth = Backstab
Backstab= 10k hit

Play pokemon

Killthehealersffs.8940

evilapprentice.6379:

Just out of curiosity, what would he have done against a Bola -> frenzy -> bullsrush-> HB’s warrior? By your argument, that’s broken too.

edit: Oh, and just a sidenote – the frenzy isn’t required with how squishy that mes was.

When we see the warrior pop frenzy , we are ready to dodge
We can <<see the bull rush>> animation and dodge
By having a player that istantly teeports + stealth + have a 10k free attack , aint gonna happen

Well, step 1 involved not running right by the thief and giving him free access to your flank – that’s beyond a rookie mistake. Secondly, I’ve managed to dodge Pre-load CnD->Steal dozens of times, and I’ve had it dodged when I use it. It’s actually pretty easy when you learn what it looks like, just as easy as dodging a bull rush. Maybe you should try that out.

Also, how do you dodge when immobilized by bola?

They can’t re-enter stealth for 3 or 4 seconds after exiting stealth the first time. I’m not even a thief, I play engineer, but all the crying from people who don’t want to adapt or get better is silly.

evilapprentice.6379:

Killthehealersffs.8940

evilapprentice.6379:

Just out of curiosity, what would he have done against a Bola -> frenzy -> bullsrush-> HB’s warrior? By your argument, that’s broken too.

edit: Oh, and just a sidenote – the frenzy isn’t required with how squishy that mes was.

When we see the warrior pop frenzy , we are ready to dodge
We can <<see the bull rush>> animation and dodge
By having a player that istantly teeports + stealth + have a 10k free attack , aint gonna happen

Well, step 1 involved not running right by the thief and giving him free access to your flank – that’s beyond a rookie mistake. Secondly, I’ve managed to dodge Pre-load CnD->Steal dozens of times, and I’ve had it dodged when I use it. It’s actually pretty easy when you learn what it looks like, just as easy as dodging a bull rush. Maybe you should try that out.

Also, how do you dodge when immobilized by bola?

U should see again the video
He need less that 0.3 sec to be next to the enemy and attack him
Even Bull rash have 0.7-0.8 sec animation

When i see frenzy , its 2 parts
1) If he bola , i am already wating with shield block
2) if not use it , i can dodge it

While I agree that backstab thieves are pretty difficult to play well against serious competition and there are various things you can do to avoid or otherwise mitigate the post-steal burst, I also think the TTK on that build and its variants is kinda over the top even on non-glassy targets – toughness doesn’t do much against this, you absolutely need active mitigation.

So idk, it’s not really about the fact that it can be avoided – it’s more that I don’t think the potential for this sort of thing is healthy for the game in general. And yeah, I know some people think that the downed state counteracts the insane TTK that some builds have – I just don’t agree.

That mesmer wasnt even glass… 22k hp and rock dog and still that happens.

Seether.7285:

They can’t re-enter stealth for 3 or 4 seconds after exiting stealth the first time. I’m not even a thief, I play engineer, but all the crying from people who don’t want to adapt or get better is silly.

The debuff starts from stealth – not when he unstealths , but i think they increased it now .
I mean he can attack any target with the 5th attack and get ready to do 10k on the real mesmer
Or use any utility to stealth

ehtom.5047:

That mesmer wasnt even glass… 22k hp and rock dog and still that happens.

You need to learn how to evaluate what is glassy or not. A scholar with 22k hp and no additional toughness is glass. I like how you say "and rock dog’ like that implies he is tankier or something?

The big thing here is that you have to accept that part of playing well is positioning yourself and being aware of your surroundings. As I said earlier, the fact that this guy waltzed past an easily visible thief and made no defensive efforts is why the thief bursted him down.

So anything not a bunker is glass? I’m pretty convinced you’re just trolling now.

This vid shows why thieves need a hotfix backstab nerf asap.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

evilapprentice.6379:

Killthehealersffs.8940

evilapprentice.6379:

Just out of curiosity, what would he have done against a Bola -> frenzy -> bullsrush-> HB’s warrior? By your argument, that’s broken too.

edit: Oh, and just a sidenote – the frenzy isn’t required with how squishy that mes was.

When we see the warrior pop frenzy , we are ready to dodge
We can <<see the bull rush>> animation and dodge
By having a player that istantly teeports + stealth + have a 10k free attack , aint gonna happen

Well, step 1 involved not running right by the thief and giving him free access to your flank – that’s beyond a rookie mistake. Secondly, I’ve managed to dodge Pre-load CnD->Steal dozens of times, and I’ve had it dodged when I use it. It’s actually pretty easy when you learn what it looks like, just as easy as dodging a bull rush. Maybe you should try that out.

Also, how do you dodge when immobilized by bola?

U should see again the video
He need less that 0.3 sec to be next to the enemy and attack him
Even Bull rash have 0.7-0.8 sec animation

When i see frenzy , its 2 parts
1) If he bola , i am already wating with shield block
2) if not use it , i can dodge it

Go ahead and scroll to 3:30 for me. Your skilled enough to have a block ready for bola, but not skilled enough to have a block ready for CnD → Steal? Seems to me your more familiar with Warrior than thief. Why don’t you take the advice that myself and others have posted 100 times across these boards – go roll a thief and familiarize yourself with the abilities that are destroying you. Just stand there and spam CnD – learn what it looks like, and how to identify it visually. By your own admission, you’re good enough to have a block ready for bola – you’re good enough to learn to block CnD→Steal. Its a L2P issue.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

evilapprentice.6379:

Killthehealersffs.8940

evilapprentice.6379:

Just out of curiosity, what would he have done against a Bola -> frenzy -> bullsrush-> HB’s warrior? By your argument, that’s broken too.

edit: Oh, and just a sidenote – the frenzy isn’t required with how squishy that mes was.

When we see the warrior pop frenzy , we are ready to dodge
We can <<see the bull rush>> animation and dodge
By having a player that istantly teeports + stealth + have a 10k free attack , aint gonna happen

Well, step 1 involved not running right by the thief and giving him free access to your flank – that’s beyond a rookie mistake. Secondly, I’ve managed to dodge Pre-load CnD->Steal dozens of times, and I’ve had it dodged when I use it. It’s actually pretty easy when you learn what it looks like, just as easy as dodging a bull rush. Maybe you should try that out.

Also, how do you dodge when immobilized by bola?

U should see again the video
He need less that 0.3 sec to be next to the enemy and attack him
Even Bull rash have 0.7-0.8 sec animation

When i see frenzy , its 2 parts
1) If he bola , i am already wating with shield block
2) if not use it , i can dodge it

Go ahead and scroll to 3:30 for me. Your skilled enough to have a block ready for bola, but not skilled enough to have a block ready for CnD → Steal? Seems to me your more familiar with Warrior than thief. Why don’t you take the advice that myself and others have posted 100 times across these boards – go roll a thief and familiarize yourself with the abilities that are destroying you. Just stand there and spam CnD – learn what it looks like, and how to identify it visually. By your own admission, you’re good enough to have a block ready for bola – you’re good enough to learn to block CnD→Steal. Its a L2P issue.

When i get bored at work (which happens a lot) I read Gw2 forums. Posts like these make me laugh. One, nothing new has been said or uncovered regarding the thief profession. Two, Seether=only logical player in this thread. I’ll be honest, I did not even watch the posted video, and I don’t care to.

If a thief wins against you 100% of the time…. well, you need to practice more. PERIOD

If a thief wins against you 50% of the time…. I don’t see the problem (assuming players are equal in skill). However, It might just so happen that his victories are derived from the craziest kittening burst you have ever seen, all in short of one blink of your fat kittening eyeballs.

It seems that most people, aside from those who actually do play thief, would prefer the class erased from the game. That’s the only motive I can see from the countless amounts of ignorant dribble regarding the profession.

Again bull rush have a visual path
I dont have problems dodging it if he 900 yards
If his closing by , i know he ready to throw bolla , so i kinda rdy
Steal have 900 range , and u have half the time to react

No Kill – you claimed you were good enough to have a Block ready for Bola. Thats what I want to discuss now. Is it
A) You’re good enough to have a block ready for bola, and therefore should be good enough to have a block ready for thief burst
B) You’re not good enough to have a block ready for Bola, making warrior just as broken (in your eyes) as thief, but you won’t complain about it because it doesn’t fit your “I cant beat thieves because they’re broken” mantra.

By your own posts its either A or B.

ehtom.5047:

So anything not a bunker is glass? I’m pretty convinced you’re just trolling now.

This vid shows why thieves need a hotfix backstab nerf asap.

I don’t get how the **** you get that. He is about as close as you can be on the glass side of the glass <——> bunker spectrum. I just built a spec that I suspected the guy had and it has 1836 armor. That is insanely glassy and having lots of HPs doesn’t do much for you when your mitigation is so low.

If I had to define different armor levels, I would say 1800-2000 =extremely glassy, 2000-2300 glassy but some breathing room, 2300-2700 hybrid/ approaching bunker, 2700+ bunker. Obviously how glassy your character plays is also based on your utility skills and the range at which you have to engage opponents.

Most skilled thiefs , arent that morons :P
When they see shield block they dont attack :P
They wait a bit :P and unload their stun + backstab :P

Edit: While warriors frenzy will get a cd after 5 sec :P
I have to play defensive for 5 sec

Dodging my point is actually more kitten than acknowledging it and choosing either A or B.

Look again in the VIDEO !! i cant even react in like 0.3-0.4 sec !!!!!
How in hell should my human brain react , pressing the dodge , in such a short period of time

With warriors its pretty easy
The pop Frenzy > Wildwind > Bola > hunderad Blades
I know the drill
Its my problem if i die there

Sigh. I’m done with you. When you finally take the blinders off and realize you need to L2P, feel free to rejoin us.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Look again in the VIDEO !! i cant even react in like 0.3-0.4 sec !!!!!
How in hell should my human brain react , pressing the dodge , in such a short period of time

With warriors its pretty easy
The pop Frenzy > Wildwind > Bola > hunderad Blades
I know the drill
Its my problem if i die there

Not exactly a scholarly source, but http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_human_reaction_time_is suggests most people should be able to react in that time period. Not everyone is the same though and some people will be outside the averages on both sides….

Nope. Ping makes this next to impossible, and reaction time is the time for the human brain to recognise a stimulus, not recognise the stimulus AND choose an appropriate course of action.

Actually if you read it, that measurement was for the time to see a stimulus and use a finger reaction. But its ok man, keep blaming the game and ping etc on your struggles. Don’t ever look inward.

Both of u , are u really serious ?
A thief kills a player in 1.25-2.15 sec , and u find it acceptable ?
Are u really playing PvP ?

Should we increase all glass cannon specs to do the same damage ?
Or bring Thief to the other lvl ?
I am the only logic guy , here ?

@Killthehealersffs: Chill I agree with you.

Cracks me up seeing people think they’re making a good argument when they say it’s fine any class has a 2 second TTK.

It’s just bad gameplay. We can fight over whether it’s a L2P issue if you’re dead if you can’t react within about 1/3rd of a second every time you see a thief but it’s just bad gameplay either way.

Seether.7285:

What isn’t shown by this video, for the next 45seconds to a minute the thief will die if a strong breeze picks up and does not pack anything near the punch of their initial burst.

And this is good design?

The enemy is laying on the ground dead not giving a kitten about the rogues cooldown going ‘well that was lame he had quickness’.

The next minute (or eh 45 seconds..) the thief is laying on the ground dead going ‘well that was lame i didnt have quickness’.

WHY.jpg

ehtom.5047:

Nope. Ping makes this next to impossible, and reaction time is the time for the human brain to recognise a stimulus, not recognise the stimulus AND choose an appropriate course of action.

Actually it is within the realm of possibility. I interrupted .25s casts in GW1 with a good ping and countering thieves here is not too different (anticipation/foreknowledge of monks helped). There’s a good BBC flash game that helps with reaction time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/reaction_version5.swf

I thought about it and honestly, the real issue here isn’t cloak, or steal or CnD.

The Real issue is “MUG” ability

It is a Tier 1 – 10 points for a 6.5k damage ability. That is really just obscene.

Either make it a Grandmaster Trait for 30 points, or cut it’s damage down to the 2k-3k range.

This is bearing in mind that they improve the render issue of de-cloaking thieves or they double the “Revelaed” debuff keeping them from cloaking again.

Mug is an extremely overpowered trait that buffs an extremely powerful base ability. It really is a head-scratcher. Why does a-net feel like every thief ability needs to do like 2-3 things at once?

I find there are easy counters to backstab build, and usually its just 1 utility for pretty much all of theirs. Most of the time you can see the thief running at you if you are aware, the most common sign is they’ll have basilisk venom up, just judge the distance and roll (once or twice, if you get hit anyway you’ll still have a backup utility if you brought one. Works a lot for me, no utility wasted and most of theirs gone.) when they get close enough to steal (mug). From the classes I’ve played, if you do get hit its easy to see your character turn to stone and hit one of the following. Keep in mind if they mug while you’re rolling it means their venom is gone.

Warrior – Endure pain. (‘Shake it off!’ may be an option. ‘Fear me!’ as well.)
Thief – Shadowstep.
Mesmer – Blink, and I think I’ve used decoy (Didn’t mess around with mesmer much, so not sure what works and what doesn’t). Not sure if distortion works.
Elementalist – Mist form, lightning flash.

So if you see the other team has a backstab thief, just change one of your utilities to counter them and keep a finger near that hotkey when they’re around. Since they usually only have one combo to pull off.

I still get caught with it from time to time and die, either with low hp or cooldowns on my skills, I just accept it, since I can easily catch them just as easily with my burst and down them before they know what hit them. A backstab thief doesn’t have any means of preventing CC in their utilities most of the time.

If we’re simply complaining about pure damage, warrior hundred blades is another thing (Mostly with frenzy) if you don’t counter it, same thing. There are supposed to be classes that remove people quickly at the cost of being removed quickly themselves.

Hope this helps. Just my 2 cents.

Eslakon.8149:

usually its just 1 utility for pretty much all of theirs.

…

A backstab thief doesn’t have any means of preventing CC in their utilities most of the time.

A common variant of the build uses signet of shadows, shadowstep, and either blinding powder or shadow refuge. There are several ways to prevent or mitigate CC in there, and none of those utilities are required for their initial burst.

Just FYI.