Guild Wars 2

because combined with an insane regeneration and heal…Way to many auras, boons, diamond skin is cancer and needs the Nerfhamme.

Lets see, my aura ele has atm… just for you… standard meta build.

Health: 18,995
Diamond Skin wears off at: 17,096
Raw damage you have to deal: 1,899

I can think of at least 1 build per profession right now that can drop ele below diamond skin constantly without that much of a problem.

Yup, not broken at all … condi reapers still hurt diamond skin easily, a couple of hits is all that takes, … as of auras and sustainability, cc is the counter… auras wears off fast, cc while on water attunement blocks most of the heals.

lol, DS ele defenders…

1 less counterbuild against conditions and we’d simply have 2 reapers, 2 condi-revs and 1 bunker mesmer per team: Is that better?

PowerBottom.5796:

1 less counterbuild against conditions and we’d simply have 2 reapers, 2 condi-revs and 1 bunker mesmer per team: Is that better?

DH’s would get a shot. Scrappers would also be included due to strengths against Reapers and DH’s.

meow one twenty.4376:

PowerBottom.5796:

1 less counterbuild against conditions and we’d simply have 2 reapers, 2 condi-revs and 1 bunker mesmer per team: Is that better?

DH’s would get a shot. Scrappers would also be included due to strengths against Reapers and DH’s.

And DD is good against Reapers as well. Not to mention that 1 bunker (1 Chrono) is better than 3 bunkers (2 Auramancers + 1 Chrono).

People all base their idea of balance on 1v1 situations. So lets look at the strong points the OP mentioned:

Diamond skin: strong in 1v1 vs pure condi builds and aoe condis in teamfights. Vs anything but pure condi it loses its value fast.

Insane heals: both of the tempest heals are channeled/ easily interuptable. The fun thing about that interupt is that only very few do it. A simple wait for it + daze stops 90% of the heal. And all of a sudden something that seems strong at first is very weak once you realize this.

meow one twenty.4376:

PowerBottom.5796:

1 less counterbuild against conditions and we’d simply have 2 reapers, 2 condi-revs and 1 bunker mesmer per team: Is that better?

DH’s would get a shot. Scrappers would also be included due to strengths against Reapers and DH’s.

Yeah yeah, scappers would still be very strong, but DH’s are crap…. DH’s get hardcountered by chronobunker, scrappers and rev’s way more than by tempest.

As long as there are chronobunkers for quickrezzes, a 1-shot-wonder like DH doesn’t stand a chance.

Why do bad players think DS is the problem and not the prevalence of condi builds/near permanent protection uptime+heals this build offers?

PowerBottom.5796:

meow one twenty.4376:

PowerBottom.5796:

1 less counterbuild against conditions and we’d simply have 2 reapers, 2 condi-revs and 1 bunker mesmer per team: Is that better?

DH’s would get a shot. Scrappers would also be included due to strengths against Reapers and DH’s.

Yeah yeah, scappers would still be very strong, but DH’s are crap…. DH’s get hardcountered by chronobunker, scrappers and rev’s way more than by tempest.

As long as there are chronobunkers for quickrezzes, a 1-shot-wonder like DH doesn’t stand a chance.

Sharing Magnetic Aura makes a DH’s useless in teamfights. Otherwise they have some sort of presence and can be effective against Reapers in teamfights. They aren’t a perfect addition from what I know, hence why I only said they had a shot.

Either way it opens up more options and could help get us out of the bunker meta.

kuritsutian.2987:

condi reapers still hurt diamond skin easily

EleGiggle

Yasi.9065:

Lets see, my aura ele has atm… just for you… standard meta build.

Health: 18,995
Diamond Skin wears off at: 17,096
Raw damage you have to deal: 1,899

I can think of at least 1 build per profession right now that can drop ele below diamond skin constantly without that much of a problem.

You are WRONG it takes 2658.6 damage if you factor in the protection. Also keep in mind a tempest can quadruple dodge roll (dodge, dodge, switch to fire, dodge, burning retreat dodge) and has passive 200 heal per second with constant uptime on regeneration and vigor.

PowerBottom.5796:

meow one twenty.4376:

PowerBottom.5796:

1 less counterbuild against conditions and we’d simply have 2 reapers, 2 condi-revs and 1 bunker mesmer per team: Is that better?

DH’s would get a shot. Scrappers would also be included due to strengths against Reapers and DH’s.

Yeah yeah, scappers would still be very strong, but DH’s are crap…. DH’s get hardcountered by chronobunker, scrappers and rev’s way more than by tempest.

As long as there are chronobunkers for quickrezzes, a 1-shot-wonder like DH doesn’t stand a chance.

This is wrong. DHs are countered by tempests the most. This is due to d/f tempest basically hard-countering DH longbow (swirling winds, shared magnetic aura, etc).

Yasi.9065:

Lets see, my aura ele has atm… just for you… standard meta build.

Health: 18,995
Diamond Skin wears off at: 17,096
Raw damage you have to deal: 1,899

I can think of at least 1 build per profession right now that can drop ele below diamond skin constantly without that much of a problem.

Except you have 40% DR from portection constantly, constant regen, and above 90% no condis (a HUGE source of necro damage) can be applied, including the chill we need to catch you and the poison we need to outdo your healing.

Have you ever fought a Tempest ele 1v1 as a necro? Unless they’re just unusually bad, it’s borderline impossible.

Sorry, there’s like 50 threads on Diamond Skin. Balanced mechanics just don’t generate that kind of QQ.

A Tempest can have (if good) a Permanent 50% reduction of Direct Damage (Trait to make protection reduce damage by 40% + frost aura that reduce direct damage by 10%).
If you add 200 hp of permanente regen, 130 hp of the water attunement regeneration, 1k hp every single aura he obtain (just activating a shout or a leap through a field), plus every weapon healing skill, the water attunement and the main healing skill…
You need to deal more than10k (reduced to 5k by protection+ frost aura) of direct damage just to put that tempest out of DS, and you need to do it faster or it’s skills will make himable to heal again.
And all that while you’re hitted by all his attacks (with both condi and direct damage why he can stach might easy up to 15-20), while “all” attack you do inflict you burn, chill, stun or become reflected by the magnetic aura, while he moves around the map like a hell with high mobility (permanent swiftness, leaps and teleport), with a large amount of dodges why have permanent vigor and recharge 50 endurance with the sigil and not a single condition that can afflict him (fear, cripple, immobilize, weakness, vulnerability, more…).

Yes, take a (good) Tempest down 90% of HP is really easy…

Silv.9207:

A Tempest can have (if good) a Permanent 50% reduction of Direct Damage (Trait to make protection reduce damage by 40% + frost aura that reduce direct damage by 10%).
If you add 200 hp of permanente regen, 130 hp of the water attunement regeneration, 1k hp every single aura he obtain (just activating a shout or a leap through a field), plus every weapon healing skill, the water attunement and the main healing skill…
You need to deal more than10k (reduced to 5k by protection+ frost aura) of direct damage just to put that tempest out of DS, and you need to do it faster or it’s skills will make himable to heal again.
And all that while you’re hitted by all his attacks (with both condi and direct damage why he can stach might easy up to 15-20), while “all” attack you do inflict you burn, chill, stun or become reflected by the magnetic aura, while he moves around the map like a hell with high mobility (permanent swiftness, leaps and teleport), with a large amount of dodges why have permanent vigor and recharge 50 endurance with the sigil and not a single condition that can afflict him (fear, cripple, immobilize, weakness, vulnerability, more…).

Yes, take a (good) Tempest down 90% of HP is really easy…

You are mixing a lot of things here… First, teach me how to maintain permanent frost Aura! I can agree to perma protection but not the frost Aura, regardless … you are mixing healing with regeneration which heals over time, …to make it short you need spike damage to take auramancers out of DS,

You will never do a spike damage to a good auramancer. Never. But to a bad one yes, you can, that’s why there’s a lot of tempests that defend the auramancer.

You can not have a permanent frost aura, but if you use the Dagger offhand (frequently I see good tempests with that) you can just press 4 and obtain 7 seconds of frost aura. If you add the shout you have another 5 seconds of frost aura. Even more if you chose to active the elite. 17 seconds of frost aura is more than enough to survive to a focus, don’t you think? If you don’t use the dagger offhand you still have 10 seconds of it.
Yes, isn’t a permanent thing but you can have it really easy.

I mixed Heal over time and istant heal why before you’re able to deal that damage that skills for shure had taked effects.
Unless you’re able to inflict a instant 10k damage (eventually possible only if the tempest don’t look at you).

If you’re a direct damage class you can kill a tempest, you can deal that damage, but you don’t even need to calculate that because more or less you don’t need to take the tempest down to 90% to deal your real damage.

But think to a condition or a hybrid class.
Don’t have skills to do a so high damage quickly when the enemy is moving, dodging, reflecting, attacking.
That’s why a Tempest don’t counter a condition class. A Tempest make it Useless.

We already have counters to condition classes and builds: the Necromancer (that reflect conditions back to the enemy and eat them to heal) and the Revenant (that use Resistance to defend himself trom the effects of the conditions).
Even the Warrior -if ANet made it viable- can be a perfect counter to condition damage (High direct damage, can leap through immobilize and can clean an insane amount of conditions quickly, expecially with the Berserker).
But them all have a thing that make them not OP: they’re Damaged by conditions, they need to Fight and sometimes the victory isn’t at 100%, depending on how good is you and your opponent. You need to be a skilled player to totally overwhelm the enemy. That make them good counters to condition damage but not OP.

With the Tempest if you fight in 1vs1 against a condition class you know from the beginning that you will come out of the fight with 100% hp doing more or less nothing, just spamming two skills and overcharging your attunement when needed. Nothing more.

The problem of the Tempest is that a condition class/build Can’t deal enough damage to take a good tempest down that threshoud, not for the time he need to make the tempest unable to turn back over 90% hp just with the main heal or the water attunement. And a tempest can also clean a lot of conditions while down that 90% of hp.
Also if you start a focus on a tempest, before your teammate(s) with the condition class/build can help you to kill the enemy you have some seconds to wayt because he can absolutly not deal good damage, just some low direct damage, making that harder.

Tempest don’t Counter condition classes, Tempest Destroy condition classes.

Anyone who says ele is currently balanced is either:

1. New to PvP
2. Defending their own broken OP spec.

My biggest gripe with auramancers is that aura’s have no counterplay other than “don’t attack”.

I feel like if the auras themselves had a maximum number of times they could trigger before disspearing. (Like 5 total times) then they DISSAPEAR. It would be okay.

Or if there was some method towards attacking through there effects.

As it is. You can’t even stop attacking the tempest for a time and hit something else. Because that something else is going to have all the same auras the tempest does. Meaning its very likely your going to get stunned every other second and chilled constantly in a team fight unless you have have very high stability uptime.

Is it a coincidence that revenants and scrappers are meta builds? Franky there the only builds that can really apply constant pressure in a team fight where a tempest is present. All the others have to burn long cooldown stability sources just to be able to apply a few seconds of pressure. And if there ranged dpsers than frankly there SOL.

Tempests have an absolutely REDICULOUS amount of projecitle hate.

Actually aurashare is the easier bunker to shut down with cc and condi pressure. Even a good viper rev or condi reaper can take it out alone. Unlike Chronobunker, u can cc the tempest and force him out of rotations. I kno the bunker meta is a meh, but the complaints reminds me of DH qq.

nacario.9417:

Actually aurashare is the easier bunker to shut down with cc and condi pressure. Even a good viper rev or condi reaper can take it out alone. Unlike Chronobunker, u can cc the tempest and force him out of rotations. I kno the bunker meta is a meh, but the complaints reminds me of DH qq.

WTF???
Guy, do you play our same game?
Actually a condi reaper can not kill a good tempest. I killed a tempest in 1vs1 just a match ago, but he really was there lettime me attacking him without moving. And I killed him hardly. But if he was just a little lesser bad (and he was really really bad) he was able to kill me without any problem.
Condi pressure? Over a Good DS Tempest? HOW??? You can’t inflict conditions, how can you do condi pressure?
Actually a hybrid revenant can kill him why can mix both high direct and condition damage and have a really high survavibility. But a pure condi revenant or a condi/hybrid reaper can’t kill a tempest.

I guess some people have to play the tempest to realize the tempest problems, …not saying is weak, not at all… I admit it is strong, but you are putting it way above it deserves to be.

kuritsutian.2987:

I guess some people have to play the tempest to realize the tempest problems, …not saying is weak, not at all… I admit it is strong, but you are putting it way above it deserves to be.

Silv.9207 had a good, long reply to WHY DS is OP. Why dont you enlighten us what “problems” DS ele have? WHat you wrote above is a complete cop out in defense of why this build shouldnt be nerfed.

It’s not OP it’s just badly design because it’s too binary.

Trait is completely OP under specific circumstances (fighting 1v1 a condi build), but doesn’t do kitten otherwise.
In teamfights or even 2v2 when someone can help the reaper break the threshhold, tempest actually get kittening destroyed by reaper’s condi, and diamond skin doesn’t do kitten for them.

style.6173:

Anyone who says ele is currently balanced is either:

1. New to PvP
2. Defending their own broken OP spec.

Not only am I neither new to PvP nor playing Ele (and I’m actually a condition reaper player), but I also despised elementalist ever since they came back to the meta as D/D something like 2 years ago. Yet I don’t think tempest are as OP as people make it out to be, and I certainly don’t understand how there can be more complaints against tempest than against revenant.

rchu.8945:

kuritsutian.2987:

I guess some people have to play the tempest to realize the tempest problems, …not saying is weak, not at all… I admit it is strong, but you are putting it way above it deserves to be.

Silv.9207 had a good, long reply to WHY DS is OP. Why dont you enlighten us what “problems” DS ele have? WHat you wrote above is a complete cop out in defense of why this build shouldnt be nerfed.

Chibbi just explained above…. just because one specific build can’t kill it in 1v1 doesn’t make it OP, just makes it a counter of that build. As of the problems I explained above, an opening strike leaves it open to condition … yes tempest can heal again, that’s when knowing the opponent comes into play… if you stack burning or bleedings, little will it do… when you break the threshold you are supposed to inflict chill/daze to hinder casting and poison to reduce heals. CC also reduce sustainability in general. … So what’s the weak spot? you kinda have to play it to know, easier than trying to explain… but I’ll try… during a battle you have good uptime of buffs….. but … while you are alone being a bunker you are not keeping your good rotations up… so usually when I lose 1v1 is because I get surprised attacked with a strong opening strike followed with the conditions I mentioned above… I don’t think I should keep exposing tempest weaknesses but yeah they have a few.

Hey ele defensers, why don’t you play vanilla thief for 1 match and then come back with your arguments?

Cynz.9437:

Hey ele defensers, why don’t you play vanilla thief for 1 match and then come back with your arguments?

Don’t know what does it has to do with anything?

Cynz.9437:

Hey ele defensers, why don’t you play vanilla thief for 1 match and then come back with your arguments?

Aaah, so this thread is actually a “thief sucks, pls buff” thread disguised as a rant against ele. Gottcha.

kuritsutian.2987:

just because one specific build can’t kill it in 1v1 doesn’t make it OP, just makes it a counter of that build.

Elem doesn’t even counter reaper in general. They counter them 1v1. In teamfights reapers are probably the best class there is to kitten a tempest up.

No this thread has nothing to do with thief being weak it about op ds ele that cancer to all pvp classes.

Any way you slice it, having a 100% negation of another’s attack for unlimited duration is simply poor game design. I don’t hate on Eles, I do think they’re annoying but not stupidly strong in most cases either, but DS has always irked me. It’s just stupid.

Having a strong countering class to conditions is not the problem, but you don’t need 100% immunity on an already very powerful healing class. That just adds insult to injury and makes you feel stupid and ineffective when fighting an Ele 1v1 for several minutes, and literally never seeing his health bar drop at all while you’re fighting to stay alive, because many condie-focused builds can do anywhere close to enough damage to get past DS.

Wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t also so effective at healing at the same time. Then you could even boost DS for all I care, but there has to be a way to get past that threshold for the ability to be balanced, and many condition builds simply can’t.

So I’m not in favor of a blanket nerf to Eles, but rather a balancing of DS…which to me means, a trade off somewhere.

All that said, this is far from top priority. A DS Ele is simply not nearly as disruptive to PvP as a stupid Trap DH is in a largely point-control based PvP game. Yeah in the high-level game skillful team play is a counter to DH, I accept that, but that in no way excuses the fact that traps are grossly OPd and make lesser levels of PvP almost unbearable for casuals/pugs.

Couldn’t help it and found myself giggling at my desk :P yet, Diamond skin is been there for ages and nobody cared, … the real cancer is Condition damage, now that is started being a thing. Condition damage is so broken that it takes only one attribute to max, ignores armor and toughness!

kuritsutian.2987:

Couldn’t help it and found myself giggling at my desk :P yet, Diamond skin is been there for ages and nobody cared, … the real cancer is Condition damage, now that is started being a thing. Condition damage is so broken that it takes only one attribute to max, ignores armor and toughness!

I’m getting tired of seeing this. People did complain about DS back in the celeddele Era but it was rare enough not to be a big concern.

kuritsutian.2987:

Couldn’t help it and found myself giggling at my desk :P yet, Diamond skin is been there for ages and nobody cared, … the real cancer is Condition damage, now that is started being a thing. Condition damage is so broken that it takes only one attribute to max, ignores armor and toughness!

But its cleansable, and it does its damage over time, you don’t get instant 7k damage like you can do with power.
So yeah, you have to get some trade off, being more overall dps and armor ignoring. (and you need 2 attributes to max, condi duration is also very important.)

meow one twenty.4376:

kuritsutian.2987:

Couldn’t help it and found myself giggling at my desk :P yet, Diamond skin is been there for ages and nobody cared, … the real cancer is Condition damage, now that is started being a thing. Condition damage is so broken that it takes only one attribute to max, ignores armor and toughness!

I’m getting tired of seeing this. People did complain about DS back in the celeddele Era but it was rare enough not to be a big concern.

Point 1) Because eles if necessary win effectively without DS

Point 2) At the time not every kid was running some condi tank so DS was a stupid trait to get anyway

Point 3) Everybody and his grandma uses a condi build in PvP/WvW..ask yourself why..that may be the reason DS is so loathed

Supreme.3164:

Point 3) Everybody and his grandma uses a condi build in PvP/WvW..ask yourself why..that may be the reason DS is so loathed

This ain’t true at all. Scrapper is a top tier spec right now and it’s a marauder spec. I see most druids running power, all DH runs power, a decent portion of revenant runs power, and the other revs runs hybrid damage and not purely condi.
There’s actually more power build than condi build in current meta, Reaper being the only spec running mostly condi builds.

Every now and then, and by that i mean every 5 minutes, a condi reaper will come to forums and complain about diamond skin because it’s the only thing that counters it. It’s a much easier alternative than learning to play too. Cry enough and the devs will give in.

I say remove diamond skin and hail our reaper overlords.

Diamond Skin is only effective on elementalist and tempest because of the low health pool. The profession needs all the healing because of that low HP, which in turn makes it easier to keep the health above 90%.

I think the initial concept of the elementalist got scrapped a long time ago. The profession was supposed to have a good dps to be on par with the low HP, the attunements and the lack of a second weapon.

It is close to impossible to play tempest anything else besides a support bunker, unless the other team isn’t using chronomancer, revenant, scrapper. In a team fight, the tempest helps with healing and damage mitigation but once the DS is broken, requires a focus of 5 seconds, they go down pretty fast and that’s when condireaper outshines it.

In my opinion Anet should dump the profession and start from scratch with a whole new design. The fact it traps you into water/earth/tempest or water/earth/arcana in the past, as the only way to have a sustain is problematic.

People cry about stealth being to strong and mesmers pu being to strong and mesmers Chronobunker and now diamond skin needs to be Nerf

Supreme.3164:

meow one twenty.4376:

kuritsutian.2987:

Couldn’t help it and found myself giggling at my desk :P yet, Diamond skin is been there for ages and nobody cared, … the real cancer is Condition damage, now that is started being a thing. Condition damage is so broken that it takes only one attribute to max, ignores armor and toughness!

I’m getting tired of seeing this. People did complain about DS back in the celeddele Era but it was rare enough not to be a big concern.

Point 1) Because eles if necessary win effectively without DS

Point 2) At the time not every kid was running some condi tank so DS was a stupid trait to get anyway

Point 3) Everybody and his grandma uses a condi build in PvP/WvW..ask yourself why..that may be the reason DS is so loathed

This is all irrelevant to the fact that he said DS wasn’t complained about even though it was.

ReaperJr.5967:

Every now and then, and by that i mean every 5 minutes, a condi reaper will come to forums and complain about diamond skin because it’s the only thing that counters it. It’s a much easier alternative than learning to play too. Cry enough and the devs will give in.

I say remove diamond skin and hail our reaper overlords.

Power Ranger does a pretty good job against Reapers, but, y’know…ranger and all. Scrappers would probably love more Reapers to take down. I really don’t like the frostfire spec, but I certainly think it would be healthier for the game if Ele’s weren’t how they currently are. Ele’s just does too much without any real counters, again.

Yasi.9065:

Lets see, my aura ele has atm… just for you… standard meta build.

Health: 18,995
Diamond Skin wears off at: 17,096
Raw damage you have to deal: 1,899

I can think of at least 1 build per profession right now that can drop ele below diamond skin constantly without that much of a problem.

Do this again with adding all the active and passive heal ele has and also remember there’s protection.

Any tempest can be easily burst down 2v1 with cc and conditions. You dont even need the cc, just have 1 player break the 90% threshold and the conditions will eat the tempest alive. But yeah, we’re in that strange discussion again where people cry about not being able to take down a bunker spec 1v1.

medusashadow.3567:

People cry about stealth being to strong and mesmers pu being to strong and mesmers Chronobunker and now diamond skin needs to be Nerf

Ele hardly gets nerfs, it’s due.